Vacation thoughts: Can McD have a similar path as Belichick? (Don't laugh)

[Chaos]

2 hours ago, Gregg said:

 

Joe Gibbs with Doug Williams as his QB.

Gibbs is arguably the best HC in NFL history. Bill Parcells did pretty well without having the best QB in the league. 

[Augie]

5 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

Dungy won 2 playoff games in 6 years in Tampa.  BB inherited a 3-13 teams and ultimately got to the playoff and won a game with Vinny Testaverde...

 

Bill Walsh was a genius because he retired before he had to coach again without a HOF QB (he was 8-24 with Steve DeBerg)

 

It's always a pretty weak argument to point out a HOF HC couldn't match the success he had without his HOF QB....

 

It’s not just that he couldn’t match the success.  Because he’s a terrible GM and has no sense of offense, Belichick was a cellar dweller at the end. 

 

BTW - McD went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor at QB, so he’s not “just Josh.”

 

 

.

Edited April 18 by Augie

[Chaos]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

It’s not that he couldn’t match the success.  Because he’s a terrible GM and has no sense of offense, Belichick was a cellar dweller at the end. 

 

BTW - McD went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor at QB, so he’s not “just Josh.”

Sigh 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

It’s not that he couldn’t match the success.  Because he’s a terrible GM and has no sense of offense, Belichick was a cellar dweller at the end. 

 

BTW - McD went to the playoffs with Tyrod Taylor at QB, so he’s not “just Josh.”

 

But then BB won 3 SBs in his first 5 years with a 6th round QB.

 

Terrible GM?  In points scored and allowed, NE had a top 10 Offense in 18 of Brady's 19 years (top 5 11 years) and top 10 Defense 17 years (top 5 for 8 of those years).  He had 38 players over that time that were either AP/PB/both.

 

Obviously that roster is trash now...

[Augie]

1 minute ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

But then BB won 3 SBs in his first 5 years with a 6th round QB.

 

Terrible GM?  In points scored and allowed, NE had a top 10 Offense in 18 of Brady's 19 years (top 5 11 years) and top 10 Defense 17 years (top 5 for 8 of those years).  He had 38 players over that time that were either AP/PB/both.

 

Obviously that roster is trash now...

 

Yes, he and his dog were terrible GM’s.

 

I’ll give him all the credit in the world for being one of the greatest defensive minds in NFL history. He’s also arrogant as hell and could have used some help with the draft instead of sending everyone home. 

 

To say a 6th round QB and not mention he was also the GOAT is hardly a fair and balanced approach. 

[Fr. Jerk]

23 hours ago, extrahammer said:

I hope you all are well and moving on from the recent Diggs stuff.

 

Edited April 18 by Fr. Jerk

[Mr. WEO]

3 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Yes, he and his dog were terrible GM’s.

 

I’ll give him all the credit in the world for being one of the greatest defensive minds in NFL history. He’s also arrogant as hell and could have used some help with the draft instead of sending everyone home. 

 

To say a 6th round QB and not mention he was also the GOAT is hardly a fair and balanced approach. 

 

was Brady the GOAT from 2001-2004?  he sure wasn't.

 

who put all those rosters together that fielded the GOAT and all those PB/AP/SB winners?

[Augie]

2 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

was Brady the GOAT from 2001-2004?  he sure wasn't.

 

who put all those rosters together that fielded the GOAT and all those PB/AP/SB winners?

 

The more power he got, the more he messed it up. I’m just looking at the facts.  He just kept getting worse. But tell yourself whatever helps you sleep. 

[Mr. WEO]

1 minute ago, Augie said:

 

The more power he got, the more he messed it up. I’m just looking at the facts.  He just kept getting worse. But tell yourself whatever helps you sleep. 

 

these are simple questions, easily answered with a review of the facts.

 

when did he get all the power? what was the result in their record from then on? he's been running that roster for decades

[billsfan89]

I think if McD burns out in Buffalo without winning a ring his best career trajectory for a second run is Tom Caughlin. Caughlin had a great run with the expansion Jaguars, from just their second season as a franchise in 1996 Caughlin took the team to the AFCCG and then made the playoffs the next 3 seasons with one more trip to the AFCCG. 
 

Then Caughlin had 3 straight losing seasons from 2000-2002 and it just was time to move on. Then in 2004 the Giants hire him and he has a great run there . After a lackluster first year Caughlin put up 4 straight playoff appearances from 2005-2008 with two division titles and a Super Bowl.

 

Then after 8 and 10 win seasons that did not yield a playoff birth in 2009-2010 they go on that second miracle Super Bowl run in 2011. 

 

McD if he’s unsuccessful in getting the Bills a Super Bowl and he leaves will definitely get another shot similar to how Caughlin turned an expansion team into a contender for a 4 year period and was given a shot to resurrect the Giants. McD just has to hope the luck goes his way.

[billsfan89]

44 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

was Brady the GOAT from 2001-2004?  he sure wasn't.

 

who put all those rosters together that fielded the GOAT and all those PB/AP/SB winners?

I would argue that Brady was also mostly a game manager plus in that 2018 Super Bowl run as well. The Pats team was ground and pound with a great defense and a clutch QB that didn’t make mistakes. That 2018 team was built much more similar to those early 2001-2004 teams. 
 

I think the narrative has shifted far too much against Bill B as the way some fans and pundits make it seem as though “Brady was the system” which ignores the fact that 4 of those titles including the last one were won on the strength of great defenses, great special teams and a strong ground game complemented by a QB who took care of the ball and made plays when needed.

 

It is not a knock on Brady as Billy B had to shift the team away from a defense oriented approach starting in 2007 and all the way up until about 2017 and in that time they made 5 Super Bowls and won 2 with a team built around Brady and a powerful offense. The defenses were not dominant defenses in that era but rather more so solid units whose strength was forcing field goals in the redzone and creating turnovers.

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

I would argue that Brady was also mostly a game manager plus in that 2018 Super Bowl run as well. The Pats team was ground and pound with a great defense and a clutch QB that didn’t make mistakes. That 2018 team was built much more similar to those early 2001-2004 teams. 
 

I think the narrative has shifted far too much against Bill B as the way some fans and pundits make it seem as though “Brady was the system” which ignores the fact that 4 of those titles including the last one were won on the strength of great defenses, great special teams and a strong ground game complemented by a QB who took care of the ball and made plays when needed.

 

It is not a knock on Brady as Billy B had to shift the team away from a defense oriented approach starting in 2007 and all the way up until about 2017 and in that time they made 5 Super Bowls and won 2 with a team built around Brady and a powerful offense. The defenses were not dominant defenses in that era but rather more so solid units whose strength was forcing field goals in the redzone and creating turnovers.

 

Agreed.

 

HOF HCs and QBs are often paired.  neither happens without the other.

 

Claims that Bellichick couldn't put together (i.e. GM the team) a roster are bizarre rewritings of history.  Maybe that helps other sleep at night.

[SirAndrew]

18 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

I would argue that Brady was also mostly a game manager plus in that 2018 Super Bowl run as well. The Pats team was ground and pound with a great defense and a clutch QB that didn’t make mistakes. That 2018 team was built much more similar to those early 2001-2004 teams. 
 

I think the narrative has shifted far too much against Bill B as the way some fans and pundits make it seem as though “Brady was the system” which ignores the fact that 4 of those titles including the last one were won on the strength of great defenses, great special teams and a strong ground game complemented by a QB who took care of the ball and made plays when needed.

 

It is not a knock on Brady as Billy B had to shift the team away from a defense oriented approach starting in 2007 and all the way up until about 2017 and in that time they made 5 Super Bowls and won 2 with a team built around Brady and a powerful offense. The defenses were not dominant defenses in that era but rather more so solid units whose strength was forcing field goals in the redzone and creating turnovers.

The end of Belichick’s tenure in NE made everyone think he’s less valuable. People conveniently forget that BB was in his 70’s at the end of his time in New England. There comes a point for most people where it’s just time to retire. I think he reached that point, and it doesn’t tell us much about him as a coach. 

[PBF81]

On 4/18/2024 at 3:11 AM, Gunsgoodtime said:

Mcd has not even come close to winning a afccg with the best qb to ever play for Buffalo.  He needs to go

 

More damning than that, and in the easiest division in football, he's only made out of of the divisional round once.  ... With Allen. 

 

Ryan won the off-season. 

McD wins the regular season. 

The only Bills coach to have ever done anything significant in the playoffs is Levy, and with Kelly, not Allen, and with worse ranked Ds too. 

 

 

[PBF81]

19 hours ago, billsfan89 said:

I think the narrative has shifted far too much against Bill B as the way some fans and pundits make it seem as though “Brady was the system” which ignores the fact that 4 of those titles including the last one were won on the strength of great defenses, great special teams and a strong ground game complemented by a QB who took care of the ball and made plays when needed.

 

That right there should end any discussion of any comparisons. 

 

McDs done the opposite.  He's taken top ranked Ds into the playoffs and choked with them generally speaking.  He's even given geriatric QBs and backup QBs chances to beat us in the playoffs.  

 

 

[PBF81]

23 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

It's always a pretty weak argument to point out a HOF HC couldn't match the success he had without his HOF QB....

 

To counter, it's one thing to not win a Super Bowl without a great QB, it's another to fail miserably.  

 

In 11 seasons without Brady, his HOF QB, he posted losing records 8 times with unimpressive win totals of 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, and 8 wins.  49-81 total (.377) 

 

In two of the other three seasons he got absolutely dusted in the wild-card round, once by Bledsoe's Pats, a team/QB he could only go 5-11 with, and the other he didn't even make the playoffs, getting edged by Tony Sparano & Chad Pennington.  

 

 

[GerstAusGosheim]

On 4/17/2024 at 1:15 PM, papazoid said:

show me an elite level head coach who did it without an elite level QB 

Joe Gibbs won 3 SBs with Joe Theismann, Doug Williams, and Mark Rypien.

[Gregg]

43 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

More damning than that, and in the easiest division in football, he's only made out of of the divisional round once.  ... With Allen. 

 

Ryan won the off-season. 

McD wins the regular season. 

The only Bills coach to have ever done anything significant in the playoffs is Levy, and with Kelly, not Allen, and with worse ranked Ds too. 

 

 

 

Lou Saban. Back-to-back AFL championships for Buffalo in 64,65, Before my time but Saban has to be considered the best HC in Bills history. 

[PBF81]

48 minutes ago, Gregg said:

 

Lou Saban. Back-to-back AFL championships for Buffalo in 64,65, Before my time but Saban has to be considered the best HC in Bills history. 

 

Roger, but referring to the NFL 

 

 

[RyanC883]

what are you drinking on vacation?  

[Mr. WEO]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

To counter, it's one thing to not win a Super Bowl without a great QB, it's another to fail miserably.  

 

In 11 seasons without Brady, his HOF QB, he posted losing records 8 times with unimpressive win totals of 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, and 8 wins.  49-81 total (.377) 

 

In two of the other three seasons he got absolutely dusted in the wild-card round, once by Bledsoe's Pats, a team/QB he could only go 5-11 with, and the other he didn't even make the playoffs, getting edged by Tony Sparano & Chad Pennington.  

 

 

 

This has been covered over and over.  Yeah,  HOF HCs without their HOF QBs struggle to win Super Bowls.  Alert the press...again.

 

 

Was Brady a HOF level QB when he was drafted?  His 1st season?  For those first 3 SB wins?  No he wasn't.

 

It's a "counter" not worth making.

 

 

 

[PBF81]

26 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

This has been covered over and over.  Yeah,  HOF HCs without their HOF QBs struggle to win Super Bowls.  Alert the press...again.

 

 

Was Brady a HOF level QB when he was drafted?  His 1st season?  For those first 3 SB wins?  No he wasn't.

 

It's a "counter" not worth making.

 

You've leapfrogged the point entirely.  

 

Great coaches don't posting seriously losing records simply because they don't have a HOF QB.  

 

Consider, our drought era generally posted better records than he did, routinely.  

 

With crap for QBs our coaches posted season wins of 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 4, 3 

 

Conntrasted with BB's win totals of 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, and 8 wins, of 11 seasons, again, with miserable failures in the playoffs otherwise, once with crap for divisional foes, there's zero argument to suggest anything but failure.  

 

In 11 of BB's non-HOF-QB seasons he's posted 8 losing seasons and had win totals not significantly different from the litany of coaches during our drought era.  

 

Great coaches should at least be .500 to 10-6/7 even with average QBs.  

 

 

 

[Ghost_002!]

4 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

You've leapfrogged the point entirely.  

 

Great coaches don't posting seriously losing records simply because they don't have a HOF QB.  

 

Consider, our drought era generally posted better records than he did, routinely.  

 

With crap for QBs our coaches posted season wins of 9, 9, 8, 8, 8, 7, 7, 7, 7, 6, 6, 6, 6, 6, 5, 4, 3 

 

Conntrasted with BB's win totals of 4, 5, 5, 6, 7, 7, 7, and 8 wins, of 11 seasons, again, with miserable failures in the playoffs otherwise, once with crap for divisional foes, there's zero argument to suggest anything but failure.  

 

In 11 of BB's non-HOF-QB seasons he's posted 8 losing seasons and had win totals not significantly different from the litany of coaches during our drought era.  

 

Great coaches should at least be .500 to 10-6/7 even with average QBs.  

 

 

 

 

 

Bill Walsh was about 17-24 without Montana.

[PBF81]

45 minutes ago, Ghost_002! said:

 

 

Bill Walsh was about 17-24 without Montana.

 

Entirely out of context and different circumstances. 

 

Take a look at Walsh's career and see if you can't identify why.  Seems as if you've already looked. 

 

 

[Ethan in Cleveland]

On 4/17/2024 at 1:15 PM, papazoid said:

show me an elite level head coach who did it without an elite level QB 

 

don't bother looking

 

the hoodie should have swallowed his pride and rode brady til his arm fell off. the bigger mistake was thinking you could do it without replacing him with an elite level QB.....thats where his arrogance cost em

Coughlin won two SuperBowls with the lesser Manning who was a great playoff QB but far from elite.

 

Harbaugh took Kaepernick to a NFC Championship and SuperBowl 

Doug Pederson won a SuperBowl with a scrap heap QB

I'd take both of them over McDermott 

 

 

 

Edited April 19 by Ethan in Cleveland

[Ethan in Cleveland]

No matter how the McDermott apologists want to spin it, the playoff failures have almost entirely been poor defensive play. Texans and all KC games the defense choked or never even showed up to play. Credit the D for the Ravens win no doubt about that. Colts win was even worse coaching by Reich. Nobody showed for the Bengals.

Allen and the offense has carried McDermott. 

Hope he proves me wrong, but if they don't make the SuperBowl this year McDermott has to go!

[Blackbeard]

30 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said:

No matter how the McDermott apologists want to spin it, the playoff failures have almost entirely been poor defensive play. Texans and all KC games the defense choked or never even showed up to play. Credit the D for the Ravens win no doubt about that. Colts win was even worse coaching by Reich. Nobody showed for the Bengals.

Allen and the offense has carried McDermott. 

Hope he proves me wrong, but if they don't make the SuperBowl this year McDermott has to go!

I think you’re focusing on a small bit of McDs career in that you’re looking at just a few specific games, albeit important ones. 
 

He’s had a top 5 defense for many years (around that level) and has done so usually with injuries and a sometimes makeshift line.