Is Josh turning into a one read guy??

[Mango]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

has nothing to do w anything

 

continue flailing

 

Flailing? Let me summarize: 
 

- The post you quoted was one where I said that Josh can be inconsistent and erratic. Sometimes he attempts throws he shouldn't. That because he gets away with poor decisions because of his physiology. But sometimes it looks like he isn't seeing the whole field. That if he fixed that part of his game he could go down as an all time great.

- You posted a graph that basically said Allen is really good overall (EPA), all QB's are inconsistent, and that I didn't know what I was talking about. 

- I responded with a video of Tom Brady directly criticizing Josh for something very similar. Sometimes you have to take the positive play and move on to the next one.

- You told me Brady's comments have nothing to do with anything. And I was flailing. 

The quoted topics above, and the summary here seem fairly consistent to me. You are so busy attacking me that you aren't even bothering to have a conversation in good faith. 

 

[PBF81]

Here's the thing that few seem to realize and understand.  Allen entered the NFL with incredibly weak defense reading skills.  He was arguably worst in his draft class.  

 

What saved him was his physical attributes and arm-strength.  He's never been a multi-read guy in the NFL.  

 

It's absolutely remarkable what he's been able to do in the NFL.  In the NCAAs, his physical prowess allowed him to succeed as a "man among boys" so to speak.  But that's also why he was the worst QB in his draft class against Power-5 competition.  

 

Given that he's overcome so much of that, and produced to top-QB levels, it's not anywhere close to a reach that with proper and good coaching, he should be able to refine and polish his game to be able to get rid of his flaws.  

 

At the same time, not having that proper coaching could irreversibly do the opposite, which appears to be occurring, or at least render the process for turning him into the best in the league much more difficult and time-consuming.  

 

But looking for him to be doing something that he's never exceled at or come close to exceling at, particularly given the questionable coaching that he's working with, isn't really fair to him.  

 

 

[Low Positive]

5 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

Here's the thing that few seem to realize and understand.  Allen entered the NFL with incredibly weak defense reading skills.  He was arguably worst in his draft class.  

 

What saved him was his physical attributes and arm-strength.  He's never been a multi-read guy in the NFL.  

 

It's absolutely remarkable what he's been able to do in the NFL.  In the NCAAs, his physical prowess allowed him to succeed as a "man among boys" so to speak.  But that's also why he was the worst QB in his draft class against Power-5 competition.  

 

Given that he's overcome so much of that, and produced to top-QB levels, it's not anywhere close to a reach that with proper and good coaching, he should be able to refine and polish his game to be able to get rid of his flaws.  

 

At the same time, not having that proper coaching could irreversibly do the opposite, which appears to be occurring, or at least render the process for turning him into the best in the league much more difficult and time-consuming.  

 

But looking for him to be doing something that he's never exceled at or come close to exceling at, particularly given the questionable coaching that he's working with, isn't really fair to him.  

 

 

All of this is true. Josh Allen, until he got to the NFL, had almost zero coaching. Brian Daboll and Ken Dorsey (I know everyone hates him now, but I think he did a good job working with Josh as the QB coach) taught him a whole lot about the QB position but he's still only been at this for 6 years. Lets take Joe Burrow as a counter example. Jim Burrow was the DC at Ohio University for more than 15 years and has been in the coaching profession since his NFL/CFL playing career ended. Joe Burrow is currently 26 years old, and he has been coached to read defenses by someone who designed them for probably 21 years. Payton and Eli too.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Einstein said:

Allen made the right read on this play. He had Hardy 1 on 1 with no safety help You take that 100 times out of 100. It is what we signed him for.

In addition to this, when Allen was releasing the ball, Davis had a defender shallow of him that has INT written all over it. He did not break out from this zone until the decision to throw was already made. 

 

Have you ever watched a football game and yelled at the QB to 'throw the ball!!!' because it was taking too long? That's what happens when you ignore the correct read, hoping that someone else would get open (like Gabe eventually did).

 

The tweeter does not understand this basic concept.
 

Joe Marino is just as bad at this. 

Turner is excellent at this ( not sure how Marino came into play)  . Harty shows zero ability to separate and Josh can’t hit that pass 9 times out of 10 anyway.  Gabe on crosser is wide open early.
 

Passing up chain movers for low percentage shots is a recurring issue. in some cases by play design some cases bad decision sometimes even both. 

[Billy Claude]

39 minutes ago, JayBaller10 said:

I remember that. One could argue it’s likely because the first read is based on pre snap alignment and expectations, where the QB thinks he’s going to go with the ball (usually as a result of film study). I’d be curious how many other top QBs rank at the bottom in terms of throwing to their first read. 

 

I don't remember the details but Tua was definitely one of the highest in the league and Mahomes was closer to Tua than to Allen.

[Brand J]

48 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Turner is excellent at this ( not sure how Marino came into play)  . Harty shows zero ability to separate and Josh can’t hit that pass 9 times out of 10 anyway.  Gabe on crosser is wide open early.
 

Passing up chain movers for low percentage shots is a recurring issue. in some cases by play design some cases bad decision sometimes even both. 

Again, some of you are incorrect about Harty’s route. He was gaining separation around the 30 yard line and if Allen had led him properly (thrown to a spot closer to the middle of the field and ahead of him so he had to go get it), the defender would be in trail position and could only tackle Harty after the catch is made (assuming it is), or commit pass interference. The defender would only be able to turn around and look for the ball if his target is slowing up and looking. If Harty doesn’t slow, the defender can’t turn around because he will lose speed. I referenced a quote earlier because it was accurate in regard to speedsters: “if he’s even, he’s leaving,” but he has to be properly led.
 

Harty’s route was okay. A stutter and go might have gotten him Tyreek Hill separation, but if the defender didn’t bite he’d be ahead of Harty. The ball placement was bad. It’s a low percentage throw all around anyway, because dropping it in a bucket to a WR running full speed is a difficult pass to complete, even for the most accurate QBs. You’d probably see more pass interferences than completions on those passes. The last beautiful deep ball I’ve seen Josh throw was the one that hit Gabe Davis in stride against KC. Or maybe it was the Pittsburgh one to Davis. He can do it. 

[Returntoglory]

3 hours ago, Trogdor said:

That throw was yards behind him and directly to the defender. It looked like he forgot which team he was throwing to, I'm not sure what you want him to do there. There is a theme on this board to come up with excuses for Allen's turnovers that has existed since day 1. He is stupid with the ball in both carrying and throwing it, that's just something they are going to have to scheme around.  

What game were you watching?

[EasternOHBillsFan]

5 hours ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

He has to be down on Davis... Mr. Invisible is what I call him.

 

Beane may have signed these players, but he can't control how they are utilized... that's Dorsey's job and McD's job. Don't put that on Beane automatically...

[Trogdor]

3 hours ago, Returntoglory said:

What game were you watching?

The one with where he is running up field on the outside and Allen doesn't even come close to the target. It's behind the receiver and flat. It wasn't even a hard play and it makes no sense to throw like that when the DB has inside coverage. 

[Best Williams Available]

I think if you make him think (like rookie year) he goes robotic. He’s an instinctive player by nature thus thrives in loosely structured systems. In tight structures he knows where everyone is going and makes a decision pre-snap based on the D to go to that one read. It’s why he can be baited into picks so often cause the D can mask where they want him to throw it.

[Andy1]

At times Josh predetermined where he wants to throw. I’ve seen this throughout his career. Other times this year he seems stuck on a receiver who is covered, he gets indecisive and throws late or ends up scrambling when other receivers were open. Other times he is stellar with his decisions. Who knows? He needs to find his zen space while playing the most difficult position in sports. 

[Returntoglory]

1 hour ago, Trogdor said:

The one with where he is running up field on the outside and Allen doesn't even come close to the target. It's behind the receiver and flat. It wasn't even a hard play and it makes no sense to throw like that when the DB has inside coverage. 

I'm referring to the pick where Davis and the defender were in each other's pocket and the ball was right there but picked off 

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

14 hours ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

 

You could do this for every QB in the league imo, it's 1 play where Allen clearly wanted to take a shot. I bet there is a clip out there when Burrow was struggling and fans were saying he only throws it to Chase, You throw it to the guys that you're comfortable with. I'm not bashing this or saying you're wrong I'm just saying you can do this in probably every game with any QB and you say man he was wide open and he didn't even look his way.

[John from Riverside]

Actually, I think it’s the exact opposite
 

The scrambling of Josh Allen has been coach out of him. Not a good thing which is actually not a good thing.

 

So he is sitting in the pocket going through his progressions

12 hours ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

Turner is excellent at this ( not sure how Marino came into play)  . Harty shows zero ability to separate and Josh can’t hit that pass 9 times out of 10 anyway.  Gabe on crosser is wide open early.
 

Passing up chain movers for low percentage shots is a recurring issue. in some cases by play design some cases bad decision sometimes even both. 

Not only was gave open, but James Cook was also open on this play
 

Bring in pass, catching running backs, and not use them is beyond me

[BullBuchanan]

16 hours ago, Bubba Gump said:

This video right here shows me that Josh is sticking with one play and going with it. Davis was wide open for a huge gain. Maybe JA has lost all faith in Gabe and doesn't even look his way anymore. Idk 🤷‍♂️ 

 

And why is Deonte Harty even on this team?? Him and Sherfield. Nice moves Beane.

 

 

he always has been

[Mister Defense]

On 11/7/2023 at 9:55 AM, Bubba Gump said:

 

Something is terribly wrong with this offense. I'm at a loss. Has Dorsey really pooped his pants so bad that he is has no clue anymore???

 

Yes, and one would expect, the players are doing things they would not normally do, and that go against their nature, because of the across the board fundamental flaws of their OC.

 

If a change is not made in the coming weeks McDermot risks Dorsey undermining the future of several players.

 

He is shattering the confidence of even the best players.

 

Edited November 11, 2023 by Mister Defense

[OldNMBillsFan]

9 hours ago, Returntoglory said:

I'm referring to the pick where Davis and the defender were in each other's pocket and the ball was right there but picked off 

I have watched that play no less than 6 times. Davis had him beat by at least a step and a half. If Allen hits him in stride, it's a 30 yard gain. The defender wasn't in his pocket until Davis had to come to a complete stop to try to get to the ball. It was well underthrown. Go watch the highlights at NFL.com.

 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

5 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

Actually, I think it’s the exact opposite
 

The scrambling of Josh Allen has been coach out of him. Not a good thing which is actually not a good thing.

 

So he is sitting in the pocket going through his progressions

Not only was gave open, but James Cook was also open on this play
 

Bring in pass, catching running backs, and not use them is beyond me

kincade, knox, cook, and even Gabe and Diggs have shown if you get them the ball quick in space they can move chains.  
 

I wish they’d just make this easy. 

[C.Biscuit97]

I think Diggs bullied Allen and Dorsey. Good for my fantasy team, not good for the Bills.