Let's talk about that Hail Mary

[Doc Brown]

9 hours ago, FrenchConnection said:

They don’t usually call PI on hail Mary passes because it is usually happening both ways. That is, of course, unless Tom Brady is the QB throwing the ball.

Or Drew Bledsoe.  That darn game still stings.

[mannc]

19 hours ago, Success said:

Sorry if there was another thread on this - I didn't see anything.

 

But that was alarming.  I don't think I have seen a defense that had such poor positioning and awareness on a final heave.  It looked like most of the defenders had their backs to the ball - maybe all of them.  Some of them were committing pretty blatant PI.  They looked lost and confused.

 

And obviously, if Godwin just turns around a half second sooner, he basically makes an easy catch for the win.

 

That's extremely poor situational coaching. It really looked like they had never practiced defending a Hail Mary.

 

It was dreadful, and all made possible by the totally gutless and clueless way McDermott closed out that game. He played the last 20 minutes of that game like his quarterback was Thad Lewis, or rookie Josh Allen. That banged up defense need a rest, not 20 minutes of hanging on for dear life. Seven years of this nonsense.

[SoMAn]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:23 PM, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Agree on everything, except the blatant PI. That happens on every Hail Mary, and it goes both ways. Refs know the Offense AND Defense are both jockeying for position. So very very unlikely they ever make that call. You simply arent going to avoid the contact on Hail Marys and luckily that is already understood.

Right. For those of us around long enough to remember,  the Bills vs Patriots game had the rarely witnessed PI called on the Bills on a Hail Mary to give the Pats the ball at the 1 YD line with a chance to win. Which of course they took advantage of to win the game. It was a ticky-tacky call where the defender was positioning himself for the ball. I believe that was the same game in 1998 in which one of the patriots receivers was well short of the first down marker but the official was heard saying ‘just give it to them’. If ever there was a game that you’d question if games were rigged, that was it. 
But that was 25 years ago - the last time I can recall a PI penalty called on a Hail Mary where all players were bumping into each other as they’re targeting the same ball. Pass interference calls in that situation are basically unheard of. 
Unless one of the Bills were blatantly pulling a potential receiver out of the play, no flag was coming out. 

Edited October 28, 2023 by SoMAn

[without a drought]

It was an unsuccessful hail mary. Is there still reason to talk about it.

 

 

[Eastport bills]

3 hours ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

Funny that Donte Stallworth, an NFL receiver who knows a thing or two about Hail Mary plays credits the Bills for executing perfect Hail Mary defense on the play.

 

But clowns on an Internet board know better I suppose.

Every NFL studio show said if Godwin turns his head the Bills lose. The Bills defense allowed an 8 minute drive for a TD, a 2 pt conversion and another drive with their prevent defense ending in the “Hail Mary” that would have won the game. Why are you defending this, with the Donte Stalworth nonsense. You watched the game, what did you see? Did your ass pucker with dread on the last throw? From Sean’s decisions to the imbecilic face mask penalty, to their inability to get Baker on the ground. The whole operation was not championship caliber. Be objective.

[Eastport bills]

22 hours ago, Success said:

Sorry if there was another thread on this - I didn't see anything.

 

But that was alarming.  I don't think I have seen a defense that had such poor positioning and awareness on a final heave.  It looked like most of the defenders had their backs to the ball - maybe all of them.  Some of them were committing pretty blatant PI.  They looked lost and confused.

 

And obviously, if Godwin just turns around a half second sooner, he basically makes an easy catch for the win.

 

That's extremely poor situational coaching. It really looked like they had never practiced defending a Hail Mary.

 

Alarming, to say the least. This is purely an indication of a coaching staff that does not stress fundamentals and discipline. They escaped twice with flagrant PIs against the G-Men and Tampa on the final plays. I thought Sean’s strength is being fundamentally sound. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

3 hours ago, mannc said:

It was dreadful, and all made possible by the totally gutless and clueless way McDermott closed out that game. He played the last 20 minutes of that game like his quarterback was Thad Lewis, or rookie Josh Allen. That banged up defense need a rest, not 20 minutes of hanging on for dear life. Seven years of this nonsense.

Actually... I thought McD did well chewing clock. It was Josh at end of 3rd that rushed an extra play for no good reason. He then promptly took a sack. Why not let it go gently into the good 4th quarter? /smdh...

 

Where McD screwed the pooch was at the end, as usual.

[BillsUberAlles]

1 hour ago, Eastport bills said:

Every NFL studio show said if Godwin turns his head the Bills lose. The Bills defense allowed an 8 minute drive for a TD, a 2 pt conversion and another drive with their prevent defense ending in the “Hail Mary” that would have won the game. Why are you defending this, with the Donte Stalworth nonsense. You watched the game, what did you see? Did your ass pucker with dread on the last throw? From Sean’s decisions to the imbecilic face mask penalty, to their inability to get Baker on the ground. The whole operation was not championship caliber. Be objective.

 

Maybe you should know WTF you are talking about first.

 

Stallworth and Orlovsky(who had like a 5 minute video that basically explains the same thing Stallworth had a thread on) said the reason Godwin wasn't looking for the ball was because HIS JOB WAS TO NOT BE LOOKING FOR THE BALL!

 

His job was to be watching the "Deep tipper" on the play, Mike Evans, and play off what he was doing and be ready for a deflection if it came to Evans.

 

This is the damn problem on this board. People who have no idea WTF they are talking about make assumptions on their wrong ideas and act like that is what was supposed to happen.

 

It wasn't. Godwin wasn't looking because his job WASNT TO BE LOOKING!!

 

If you want to listen to people, listen to ones that know WTF they are talking about like a former WR or former QB not random studio people who never played football or defensive lineman who would have no idea what was supposed to actually happen on those plays since they never have been involved in them.

[ExiledInIllinois]

59 minutes ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

Maybe you should know WTF you are talking about first.

 

Stallworth and Orlovsky(who had like a 5 minute video that basically explains the same thing Stallworth had a thread on) said the reason Godwin wasn't looking for the ball was because HIS JOB WAS TO NOT BE LOOKING FOR THE BALL!

 

His job was to be watching the "Deep tipper" on the play, Mike Evans, and play off what he was doing and be ready for a deflection if it came to Evans.

 

This is the damn problem on this board. People who have no idea WTF they are talking about make assumptions on their wrong ideas and act like that is what was supposed to happen.

 

It wasn't. Godwin wasn't looking because his job WASNT TO BE LOOKING!!

 

If you want to listen to people, listen to ones that know WTF they are talking about like a former WR or former QB not random studio people who never played football or defensive lineman who would have no idea what was supposed to actually happen on those plays since they never have been involved in them.

Mayfield couldn't reach Evans! BUT point taken.

 

And anyway... Evans committed OPI just bad, if NOT worse than the others committing PI. 

 

Good win Bills! Sometimes you gotta hang on!

[mannc]

1 hour ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Actually... I thought McD did well chewing clock. It was Josh at end of 3rd that rushed an extra play for no good reason. He then promptly took a sack. Why not let it go gently into the good 4th quarter? /smdh...

 

Where McD screwed the pooch was at the end, as usual.

At this point in Josh Allen’s career, it is totally unacceptable for this offense to go into turtle mode in the third quarter with a 14-point lead against the Buccaneers.  It’s boring, play-not-to-lose football, and as a Bills fan, I’ve seen way too much of it.  I’ve never seen the Chiefs do it and I never saw the Brady-era Pats do it.  They never stopped attacking.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Just now, mannc said:

At this point in Josh Allen’s career, it is totally unacceptable for this offense to go into turtle mode in the third quarter with a 14-point lead against the Buccaneers.  It’s boring, play-not-to-lose football, and as a Bills fan, I’ve seen way too much of it.  I’ve never seen the Chiefs do it and I never saw the Brady-era Pats do it.  They never stopped attacking.

Yeah... I hear ya, BUT weren't people losing their mind when Bills were aggressive and time wasn't chewed away.

 

Jeesh... Ain't gonna please everyone!

 

I really don't think they were in TurtleMode. That TB drive was 8 minutes! With steep help from the Refs.

[Eastport bills]

1 hour ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

Maybe you should know WTF you are talking about first.

 

Stallworth and Orlovsky(who had like a 5 minute video that basically explains the same thing Stallworth had a thread on) said the reason Godwin wasn't looking for the ball was because HIS JOB WAS TO NOT BE LOOKING FOR THE BALL!

 

His job was to be watching the "Deep tipper" on the play, Mike Evans, and play off what he was doing and be ready for a deflection if it came to Evans.

 

This is the damn problem on this board. People who have no idea WTF they are talking about make assumptions on their wrong ideas and act like that is what was supposed to happen.

 

It wasn't. Godwin wasn't looking because his job WASNT TO BE LOOKING!!

 

If you want to listen to people, listen to ones that know WTF they are talking about like a former WR or former QB not random studio people who never played football or defensive lineman who would have no idea what was supposed to actually happen on those plays since they never have been involved in them.

Thanks for straightening that out, As long as Dante says he shouldn’t be looking where the ball is headed, because he knows how Tampa runs that play having retired 6 or 7 years ago. My point was how the Bills defended the play genius. I don’t care what Godwin’s motivation was. Take a few deep breaths. You’ll be fine.

 

 

 

 

[TheBrownBear]

1 hour ago, mannc said:

At this point in Josh Allen’s career, it is totally unacceptable for this offense to go into turtle mode in the third quarter with a 14-point lead against the Buccaneers.  It’s boring, play-not-to-lose football, and as a Bills fan, I’ve seen way too much of it.  I’ve never seen the Chiefs do it and I never saw the Brady-era Pats do it.  They never stopped attacking.

I just rewatched the entire game.  The Bills did not go into "turtle mode" in the third quarter.  This is a false narrative.  We had two drives stall around the Bucs 45 yard line due to execution issues.  We continued to throw the ball and attempted to push it down field.  And we probably score on that drive to end the third quarter/start of 4th if not for being too aggressive with that quick snap that led to the 10 yard sack.  

[BuffaloBillsGospel2014]

On 10/27/2023 at 11:47 AM, Success said:

Sorry if there was another thread on this - I didn't see anything.

 

But that was alarming.  I don't think I have seen a defense that had such poor positioning and awareness on a final heave.  It looked like most of the defenders had their backs to the ball - maybe all of them.  Some of them were committing pretty blatant PI.  They looked lost and confused.

 

And obviously, if Godwin just turns around a half second sooner, he basically makes an easy catch for the win.

 

That's extremely poor situational coaching. It really looked like they had never practiced defending a Hail Mary.

 

 

That's on players imo, I mean you're in the NFL and if you can't defend a hail mary pass regularly then you shouldnt be playing in the NFL.

[Beast]

I’ll show you blatant interference that cost the Bills a game.

 

 

[mannc]

44 minutes ago, TheBrownBear said:

I just rewatched the entire game.  The Bills did not go into "turtle mode" in the third quarter.  This is a false narrative.  We had two drives stall around the Bucs 45 yard line due to execution issues.  We continued to throw the ball and attempted to push it down field.  And we probably score on that drive to end the third quarter/start of 4th if not for being too aggressive with that quick snap that led to the 10 yard sack.  

OK, how about the entire fourth quarter, then?   

[TheBrownBear]

13 minutes ago, mannc said:

OK, how about the entire fourth quarter, then?   

That's what I'm referring to.  They had the drive with the ill timed sack, another drive where they moved the ball 30 yards and then had to punt after the deflected pass to Davis and Kincaid's 8 yard catch left us in 4th and 2, and then the TB timeout killing drive that started at 2:30 and ended with us punting with under :30 left on the clock.  The only possession of the 2nd half (arguably the entire game) that they played conservative was the final one where they had to burn TB's timeouts.  They did this by successfully picking up a first down on three straight runs.  If it seems like we did nothing in the fourth quarter it's because TB's scoring drive took something like 8+ minutes off the clock.

 

I guess you could argue we "turtled" by punting in those 4th and 4 (first drive of 4th) and 4th and 2 (next drive) situations from Tampa's 45, but we were up 14, the field position game had been working well for us, Martin was consistently pinning them deep, and the defense was in shutdown mode going back to the end of the second quarter.  The one thing you didn't want to do in those situations is to give Tampa the momentum of a 4th down stop and a short field.  I guarantee you that Andy Reid and Bill Belichick and just about every other coach not named Brandon Staley punts in those situations.

 

Edit: we were also playing Tampa Bay, not the Chiefs, Niners, Dolphins, Eagles or some other explosive offense.  The only time they had scored all game was when Josh gave them a short field from our 25.  

Edited October 28, 2023 by TheBrownBear

[BillsUberAlles]

4 hours ago, Eastport bills said:

Thanks for straightening that out, As long as Dante says he shouldn’t be looking where the ball is headed, because he knows how Tampa runs that play having retired 6 or 7 years ago. My point was how the Bills defended the play genius. I don’t care what Godwin’s motivation was. Take a few deep breaths. You’ll be fine.

 

 

 

 

 

Yes...because actual NFL players know these plays are pretty much standard for all teams that approach them in the same way.

 

As far as how they defended it, Stallworth said they "executed the defense of the Hail Mary perfectly".

 

Sorry to burst your bubble. I know your ego can't handle that your wrong so I'm sure you'll continue to argue against it.

[Eastport bills]

48 minutes ago, BillsUberAlles said:

 

Yes...because actual NFL players know these plays are pretty much standard for all teams that approach them in the same way.

 

As far as how they defended it, Stallworth said they "executed the defense of the Hail Mary perfectly".

 

Sorry to burst your bubble. I know your ego can't handle that your wrong so I'm sure you'll continue to argue against it.

Stop with the Stalworth references, I’m begging you. It means zero. If you hear anyone from the Bills coaches or players saying that defense was adequate I’ll send you a gift certificate. C’mon did that play look like it was defended well. I respect you’re a loyal fan, but using a washed up receiver and his nonsensical take as the final word is silly. Good conversation, I’m done.

[BillsUberAlles]

56 minutes ago, Eastport bills said:

Stop with the Stalworth references, I’m begging you. It means zero. If you hear anyone from the Bills coaches or players saying that defense was adequate I’ll send you a gift certificate. C’mon did that play look like it was defended well. I respect you’re a loyal fan, but using a washed up receiver and his nonsensical take as the final word is silly. Good conversation, I’m done.

 

Just like you not knowing WTF you are talking about means zero.

 

When was the last time you saw a well thrown Hail Mary ball landing in the middle of the endzone not be touched by any player? Seems like pretty good defense to me.

Edited October 28, 2023 by BillsUberAlles

[BobbyC81]

On 10/27/2023 at 9:26 AM, Success said:

 

That was pretty informative.  Makes me feel a little better about it.

 

How?   If this is a standard Hail Mary play, the Bills should know how to defend it.   Why was Bernard responsible for Godwin?   He was trailing him.   If Tampa was able to execute it properly to Evans and he tipped it forward, Godwin was right there.  Bernard wasn’t in the play until he knocked him over.

 

The short jump guy was double-teamed and mugged.  They could’ve called P.I. on a couple of the Bills there.  They were lucky nobody touched it.  
 

Evans is 6-5.  They should’ve had someone taller on him to knock the ball down if it came to him.  
 

Before the snap, the announcer said the Bills had multiple players standing near the goal line, so why wasn’t one of them on Godwin instead of Bernard with 2 guys on the short guy and 3 around Evans?
 

All this video showed me was that the Bills were lucky that Tampa wasn’t able to execute the play.  The Bills played it poorly and could’ve been called for P.I.

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:10 PM, Big Turk said:

 

Evans also committed blatant PI and was the reason why Poyer went flying to the ground and took out 2 other Bills players with him.  Perhaps that is why there was such poor positioning?

/end thread

[1ManRaid]

On 10/27/2023 at 12:29 PM, Big Blitz said:

Why are we rushing 4 guys in these situations is absurd to me.  
 

Put 9 guys back there.  Rush 2.  Should have been doing that from play 1 of the Bucs last possession.  

 

It's literally to prevent a Mighty Ducks Flying V formation of 300+ pound offensive linemen plowing a path to the endzone for Baker through all those smaller DBs flooding the back end.  Have to at least throw a few guys at the O-line to keep them honest and maintain the numbers advantage for the jump ball.