Josh’s stats so far - the Ken Dorsey Offense

[JMM]

1 hour ago, zow2 said:

On ESPN this morning, Orlovsky showed specific plays where the Bills fail miserably when responding to heavy pressure and blitzing.  It's a big problem he says and been that way for 5 years.  But they didn't blame Allen even though he makes some bad decisions.  Said We would never come back in any of these games without Allen being amazing.

Could you elaborate a bit? What did Dan pinpoint as the problem? Simply personnel or coaching or both? You said he stated 5 years, so that would include Dorsey and Daboll. Thanks!

[Westside]

1 hour ago, The Jokeman said:

Exactly, an OC shouldn't be blamed when his starting TE is open and drops a catchable ball etc. Also an OC can't direct who the QBs throws to on any given play that's always the QBs given choice and we've seen Josh doesn't always make the right one. Toss in our FG kicker the last two weeks has missed some kicks that in most cases you'd think he'd make. 

Dorsey will go down in infamy for his shotgun draw play. Brilliant!!!!!!

[mrags]

1 hour ago, FireChans said:

 

We are second in the NFL in RZ TD percentage.

What difference does it make when we only get in the RZ 3 times a game. If the offense sucks, your shots in the RZ are diminished 

[colin]

dorsey is bothersome, but honestly, his offensive stats last year and this year are close enough to dabol's it's not like we lost andy reid and picked up dennison.

 

the big issue, and it was an issue under dabol too, is that we just don't have a scheme that puts us in an advantage position.  everything new england did vs us on d and on o was a function of scheme and execution of that scheme.  pre snap reads, basic play action, screens and sweeps when linebackers weren't being disciplined, easy quick developing passes based on the pre snap line up, etc.

 

for us, it seems like we just call something, which nearly every second down is the wrong thing and the d has it dead, or we go hurry up and allen just uses allen powers to do allen things.  we would be 2 wins better if we just elimated the bad play on offense as much as can be done.  but without a base/identity to fall back on and to get ahead of the sticks, every play we have is like a flip of a magic 8 ball, might work, might not, and we have no idea when we flip it.

[zow2]

21 minutes ago, JMM said:

Could you elaborate a bit? What did Dan pinpoint as the problem? Simply personnel or coaching or both? You said he stated 5 years, so that would include Dorsey and Daboll. Thanks!

 

He did say coaching plus the guys on the field.  Honestly he kinda wanted to be a bit critical of Allen but then backed off and said Everyone!  He was mad that the Bills have no set plan to deal with the heavy pressure and he showed outlet plays that would’ve worked to at least set them up for 3rd down and short yardage situations.

Edited October 23, 2023 by zow2

[All_Pro_Bills]

47 minutes ago, zow2 said:

 

He did say coaching plus the guys on the field.  Honestly he kinda wanted to be a bit critical of Allen but then backed off and said Everyone!  He was mad that the Bills have no set plan to deal with the heavy pressure and he showed outlet plays that would’ve worked to at least set them up for 3rd down and short yardage situations.

They have no situational game plan, play calls, and consistently fail to identify an effective play or call to take advantage of the defense.

 

An example might be that some teams play a wide nine that puts pressure on the OTs but leaves a gap between the DTs and DEs.  A LB might normally assume responsibility for that gap.  But a draw between the OG and OT gap where the LB vacated to drop into pass coverage can be exploited.  Once you run a successful draw a few times the LBs will delay their drop into coverage and as a result leave some big gaps in coverage that Allen can exploit In the pass game.    How much of that do the Bills do when playing the Jets or a wide nine scheme?  They'll run between the center guard gap which consistently get stuffed.  And the LBs drop without concern for the draw.

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by All_Pro_Bills

[MJS]

2 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

Only stat I know offhand is the Offense went from unstoppable in the Redzone to struggling. 

Daboll struggled in the red zone too. Don't you remember?

2 hours ago, TheyCallMeAndy said:

I get it isn’t all on Dorsey, players need to execute, ect, but Josh Allen clearly doesn’t fit this Ken Dorsey offense and players seem to have a difficult time picking it up. 
 

The offensive coordinator does take blame when the offense seems uncoordinated. 

Agreed. The offense just seems pretty bland. Daboll, even though he wasn't as good as everyone remembers, always sprinkled in some interesting plays, some trick plays, etc. Dorsey needs to at least be doing that.

[Mango]

2 hours ago, zow2 said:

On ESPN this morning, Orlovsky showed specific plays where the Bills fail miserably when responding to heavy pressure and blitzing.  It's a big problem he says and been that way for 5 years.  But they didn't blame Allen even though he makes some bad decisions.  Said We would never come back in any of these games without Allen being amazing.

Josh runs on just wing it and sling it. 
 

My guess is there’s a lot going on here part is on the OL, but part of it is Josh identifying and setting the protection at the LOS. 

[MJS]

3 minutes ago, Mango said:

Josh runs on just wing it and sling it. 
 

My guess is there’s a lot going on here part is on the OL, but part of it is Josh identifying and setting the protection at the LOS. 

And going to hot routes and check downs when pressure comes. There is plenty of blame to go around. The OL has been pretty good this year,  until yesterday.

[ngbills]

If they dont want to play to Allen's strengths then they should just move on from him. I am sure many teams would take him off our hands. 

[Best Williams Available]

2 hours ago, machine gun kelly said:

Yep.  Josh may like shotgun, but they are more effective under center.  McBeane may want 12 and 21 personnel, but safe ball control football is not the way.

 

Josh cooks under 11 personnel.

 

The ball control style is being force fed to them by McD, who as a D guy doesn’t want his D on the field too frequently or for too long.

Think about that Chiefs game. The O scored too fast too often leaving 13 sec on the clock for the D to then give it up. He took all the wrong lessons from that game and is trying to win tight ball control games vs shootouts. But how has that worked out the last 2 weeks? His D effectively gave up 2 game winners. Let your O put up 30+ guy and trust your guys on D to win games.

[BigDingus]

That's kind of what happens when you don't extend drives though. You can expect less passing attempts, less yards, less TDs, etc. if you're doing nothing until the 4th quarter and constantly punting the ball.

 

And INTs aren't the only issue. Fumbles are a big problem as well. So the turnover numbers look even worse than the 7 INTs indicate. 

[CincyBillsFan]

3 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Through seven games, Josh’s stats are as follows:  

 

2020: 175/259, 2,018 yards, 16 touchdowns, 4 interceptions, 12 sacks.  

2021: 178/272, 1,972 yards, 17 touchdowns, 3 interceptions, 8 sacks.  

2022: 173/264, 2,198 yards, 19 touchdowns, 6 interceptions, 11 sacks.  

2023: 174/246, 1,841 yards 15 touchdowns, 7 interceptions, 10 sacks.  

 

We see that Josh has thrown fewer passes with a similar amount completions, but with fewer yards and touchdowns, reflecting an offense prioritizing safe football instead of explosive plays. We also see more interceptions although that’s skewed by the awful Jets game.  

 

We also see a bit more success in the run game aside from Josh, as Cook’s 417 yards are the best a Bills RB has had through this span in some time. 

IMO this is a defensive based approach illustrating to me that with DaBoll gone and the more controllable Dorsey running the O McD can shape the offense to a form that he prefers. I suspect that McD & DaBoll went at it a few times over the offenses approach.

 

 

 

 

[Aimee75]

One of the FEW podcasts I am willing to watch/listen to today.

 

I am always and forever with Chris Simms on the topic of our offense.

 

"The whole game is on him. I'm sick of it!"(regarding Josh)

 

[TheBrownBear]

40 minutes ago, Mango said:

Josh runs on just wing it and sling it. 
 

My guess is there’s a lot going on here part is on the OL, but part of it is Josh identifying and setting the protection at the LOS. 

My sense is that this is a huge weakness in his game that is setting us back, but that's just based on how often we see him stuck in jailbreak situations.  I have no clue what, if any checks, he's making at the LOS.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, Royale with Cheese said:

It seems like Allen doesn’t trust the 1st read.  He holds it, scrambles out and tries to make the great play throwing on the run.

 

What happened to snap, 3 step drop and out?

It’s there, on the sustained scoring drives 

[Billsfan1972]

NE pressured 40.9% yesterday and there were 18 hurries.

 

How is that acceptable?

 

Add to that Davis never seems to get open and throws to the middle of the field and room to run are non-existent.

[All_Pro_Bills]

28 minutes ago, Best Williams Available said:

The ball control style is being force fed to them by McD, who as a D guy doesn’t want his D on the field too frequently or for too long.

Think about that Chiefs game. The O scored too fast too often leaving 13 sec on the clock for the D to then give it up. He took all the wrong lessons from that game and is trying to win tight ball control games vs shootouts. But how has that worked out the last 2 weeks? His D effectively gave up 2 game winners. Let your O put up 30+ guy and trust your guys on D to win games.

Too much thinking.  These players seem to excell when the pace is fast.  The identity the group was developing isn't slow, milk the clock.  Ball control is disturbing the entirre space-time continuum of this offense. 

Go hurry up or no huddle all game.  In the 4th 2 weeks in a row that's gotten the offense moving and scoring.  Start the game with it not after going down two scores.  Be aggressive and McDermott needs to stop playing scared and timid.

[jlgarsh]

3 hours ago, MAJBobby said:

Can the QB for being massively late on the throw to the starting TE with hands issues turning an easy catch into a contested catch?  

He drops the easy catches too sometimes. The nickname Dropsome Knox didn't come overnight 

[Best Williams Available]

5 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Too much thinking.  These players seem to excell when the pace is fast.  The identity the group was developing isn't slow, milk the clock.  Ball control is disturbing the entirre space-time continuum of this offense. 

Go hurry up or no huddle all game.  In the 4th 2 weeks in a row that's gotten the offense moving and scoring.  Start the game with it not after going down two scores.  Be aggressive and McDermott needs to stop playing scared and timid.

I think he’s playing based on the strengths of his D. It shapes his whole philosophy. His D can’t play fast, it’s filled with old guys and slow guys. He rotates DL to combat this. He doesn’t want these old slow guys out there every 5 minutes so demands we perfect some sustained style of O. It worked great against the Raiders but sometimes you need to win shootouts. Against Miami he conceded this and won but they then went and f*cked with the program.