Seems coaching took away 1 of Allen's biggest assets - Him running the football

[JerseyBills]

Never thought I'd be saying this but it hit me tonight going through twitter and looking back the last few games and realizing how many times I've shouted at the TV for Josh to run..

The coaches and Beane, for a cpl years now, have openly talked about limiting Josh on the ground and most agreed but we're taking 1 of his biggest assets as a QB away.

Teams don't need to spy as much, there has been so many plays this year where I'm screaming for him to run, never have I in his career prior to this year. 

Today again,  there was 4 -5 plays and multiple in previous  games where he would've gotten positive yardage, possibly big gains but he holds the ball and majority of the plays end up incomplete, sack or int. 

 

I sorely miss the Josh Allen that'd see a lane and would instantly take off every time. This not only helps our O but puts the D on skates and opens up passing lanes. 

 

Why is this happening? Has it been coached out of him? I can't believe I'm saying this even but it's killing us on O. We have no identity on O. Let 17 LOOSE FFS, he looks like he's not even entertaining taking off when there's a big lane and in the past would result in a big play

 

Hecaveraged 7.8 rushes per game last year. This year he has 29 in 7 games, about 4.1 per game and most are qb sneaks. It's definitely hurting the o

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by JerseyBills

[Aussie Joe]

Interesting … you could be onto something 

[JerseyBills]

6 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

Interesting … you could be onto something 

I'm telling you , it's killing us, especially in or around the RZ but really the whole field. So many times in the past he bailed out the O with a massive run, moving the chains or getting a TD and this staff seemingly took that aspect away from his game. It's disappointing to say the least

[Doc Brown]

There's been multiple threads on this already today but it's a combination of teams playing him better, trying to preserve Josh early in the season (imo), and him trying to become a more traditional passer knowing the wear and tear on his body from taking all those hits will eventually catch up to him.  BTW, I think he can flip that style of play on a switch if needed.  His ability to quickly adapt from week to week is rare for a QB.

16 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I'm telling you , it's killing us, especially in or around the RZ but really the whole field. So many times in the past he bailed out the O with a massive run, moving the chains or getting a TD and this staff seemingly took that aspect away from his game. It's disappointing to say the least

We've been great in the red zone this year.  Josh is 21 for 29 for 11 TD's (14 total TD's) and 0 INT's in the Red Zone.  Going into this week I think we were ranked 2nd in touchdown percentage (around 71%) in the Red Zone (don't quote me on that).

Edited October 23, 2023 by Doc Brown

[Herc11]

McDermott has the keys to a Ferrari and drives it like a prius.

[JerseyBills]

8 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

There's been multiple threads on this already today but it's a combination of teams playing him better, trying to preserve Josh early in the season (imo), and him trying to become a more traditional passer knowing the wear and tear on his body from taking all those hits will eventually catch up to him.  BTW, I think he can flip that style of play on a switch if needed.  His ability to quickly adapt from week to week is rare for a QB.

I feel psychologically he refuses to take the easy yards on the ground. I'm seeing open lanes for big chunks of yards watching live. He used to spot a lane and take off all day, now he refuses and usually results in a negative play.

7.8 attempts per gm last year. 

4.1 this year, mostly QB sneaks. 

 

He isn't a traditional QB. I get it Why they took away such a huge piece of his game but It's clearly not working. I believe we win today if he took off on a few plays like he used to. Would've extended drives and made the d spy all day

Edited October 23, 2023 by JerseyBills

[Doc Brown]

4 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I feel psychologically he refuses to take the easy yards on the ground. I'm seeing open lanes for big chunks of yards watching live. He used to spot a lane and take off all day, now he refuses and usually results in a negative play.

7.8 attempts per gm last year. 

4.1 this year, mostly QB sneaks. 

 

He isn't a traditional QB. I get it Why they took away such a huge piece of his game but It's clearly not working. I believe we win today if he took off on a few plays like he used to

I also saw him get stuffed a few times.  I'd have to watch the All 22 but you may be right.  One thing's for sure is they seem to have completely done away with designed QB runs which is what we used to turn to when our offense was stagnant.

Edited October 23, 2023 by Doc Brown

[JerseyBills]

10 minutes ago, Doc Brown said:

I also saw him get stuffed a few times.  I'd have to watch the All 22 but you may be right.  One thing's for sure is they seem to have completely done away with designed QB runs which is what we used to turn to when our offense was stagnant.

I agree. I mean moreso when Josh wouldn't wait a second,  he'd see open field and instantly take off. Barely seen that this year which is concerning.  There was at least 4 negative plays where he would've gotten good yardage if he bolted today.  Instead he waits for play to develop and has bad results. I pray the staff can get that Josh mindset back, O desperately needs it

Edited October 23, 2023 by JerseyBills

[Scott7975]

4 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I agree. I mean moreso when Josh wouldn't wait a second,  he'd see open field and instantly take off. Barely seen that this year which is concerning.  There was at least 4 negative plays where he would've gotten good yardage if he bolted today.  Instead he waits for play to develop and has bad results. I pray the staff can get that Josh mindset back, O desperately needs it

it’s the staff that coached his mindset out of him. They took an elite star and then coached out what made Josh elite because they want him to be Brady. Josh will never be Brady. Elite processing of the field and elite precision is not what made Josh special. 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Scott7975

[Aussie Joe]

16 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

it’s the staff that coached his mindset out of him. They took an elite star and then coached out what made Josh elite because they want him to be Brady. Josh will never be Brady. Elite processing of the field and elite precision is not what made Josh special. 

I agree that there has been a coaching directed change to his playing style…

 

In your opinion ..when exactly did they begin this direction  of “coaching out  his mindset “?

 

Was it this year after the Jets game ( which is my theory…)… even if that was the case … he still played pretty well against the Dolphins ..

 

Even when he had “free reign” prior  … he still had the occasional sub par game  3-4 times a year

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Aussie Joe

[JerseyBills]

9 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

it’s the staff that coached his mindset out of him. They took an elite star and then coached out what made Josh elite because they want him to be Brady. Josh will never be Brady. Elite processing of the field and elite precision is not what made Josh special. 

Exactly.  agree 100% 

Well said

My only hope is they realize this and hopefully revert his mindset back to the "backyard football " style, where his running threat put Ds on skates and made them defend every inch of the field 

[Scott7975]

18 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

I agree that there has been a coaching directed change to his playing style…

 

In your opinion ..when exactly did they begin this direction  of “coaching out  his mindset “?

 

Was it this year after the Jets game ( which is my theory…)… even if that was the case … he still played pretty well against the Dolphins ..

 

Even when he had “free reign” prior  … he still had the occasional sub par game  3-4 times a year

 

 

As far as him running goes they been trying to curb that for years now. As far as his elite “backyard football” mostly after the Jets game I think. 
 

I think those games you just have to live with. Every qb has bad games. Even Mahomes. It’s the same bad plays that also result in the wow throws and dominant games from Josh. I’ve been saying for years that you have to take the good with the bad. The good is far more often than the bad. They are trying to turn him into what he isn’t. I don’t think Josh is capable of that but I do think Josh is capable of winning it all being who he is. He just needs better players than Davis and Knox and coaching that embrace him for what he is special at. 

[Aussie Joe]

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

As far as him running goes they been trying to curb that for years now. As far as his elite “backyard football” mostly after the Jets game I think. 
 

I think those games you just have to live with. Every qb has bad games. Even Mahomes. It’s the same bad plays that also result in the wow throws and dominant games from Josh. I’ve been saying for years that you have to take the good with the bad. The good is far more often than the bad. They are trying to turn him into what he isn’t. I don’t think Josh is capable of that but I do think Josh is capable of winning it all being who he is. He just needs better players than Davis and Knox and coaching that embrace him for what he is special at. 

Im not saying you are wrong … but if he is dependent on better players and coaches  to help him … then I think this is unlikely to happen this year … through no fault of his own .. ( although it does irk me that they asked and then followed his opinion for the Dorsey OC role.. at the time he was a four year player and they should have just made up their own minds  )

So what went right( and subsequently wrong after ) in the Dolphins game you think … ? He was on fire that day .. and it was not even a month ago 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Dr.Sack]

Bills rushing totals so far in 2023:

 

35/183

33/168

29/104

29/128

24/81

22/97 

14/29

 

Guess which are the 3 losses. 

[Scott7975]

Just now, Aussie Joe said:

Im not saying you are wrong … but if he is dependent on better players and coaches  to help him … then I think this is unlikely to happen this year … through no fault of his own .. ( although it does irk me that they asked and then followed his opinion for the Dorsey OC role.. at the time he was a four year player and they should have just made up their own minds  )

So what went right( and subsequently wrong after ) in the Dolphins game you think … ? He was on fire that day .. and it was not even a month ago 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I don’t expect it to get better this year. All QBs need help that don’t drop the ball on key downs. That get separation on script and not just off script. 
 

the dolphins d is bad and Josh plays them twice a year so knows them well. Pats D is good even if they had some down games this season. They busted our line and Josh was under more pressure than probably most games this year. 

[Aussie Joe]

6 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I don’t expect it to get better this year. All QBs need help that don’t drop the ball on key downs. That get separation on script and not just off script. 
 

the dolphins d is bad and Josh plays them twice a year so knows them well. Pats D is good even if they had some down games this season. They busted our line and Josh was under more pressure than probably most games this year. 

That Dolphins game is like one of his best games ever … maybe only behind the Patriots playoff game IMO…and he didn’t do too much running 

[JerseyBills]

4 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I don’t expect it to get better this year. All QBs need help that don’t drop the ball on key downs. That get separation on script and not just off script. 
 

the dolphins d is bad and Josh plays them twice a year so knows them well. Pats D is good even if they had some down games this season. They busted our line and Josh was under more pressure than probably most games this year. 

I also believe DCs now don't have to game plan as much for his rushing threat. Belicheck saw through 6 games that 17 isn't taking off as he usually does. 

 

Having to spy the qb is a huge plus for any offense but also takes alot of game planning for during the week.

 

They've been trying for a cpl years but this TC I feel they were infatuated with the 2 TE set and being able to create mismatches depending on if the D plays run or pass but it just hasn't worked. Wanting him to be Brady esque.

Also feel like this would prevent Josh from playing wreckless. Which They is when he's best. They have no identity anymore.

2 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

That Dolphins game is like one of his best games ever … maybe only behind the Patriots playoff game IMO…and he didn’t do too much running 

Agreed. He's an amazing qb and doesn't need to use his legs when the O has rhythm and humming like that game but when the O isn't,  having him use his legs should be encouraged , whether designed or just telling him to take off immediately if you have the opportunity.  

Either let the d spy and open up the pass or keep running until they have no choice but to spy

[Aussie Joe]

33 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

 

Agreed. He's an amazing qb and doesn't need to use his legs when the O has rhythm and humming like that game but when the O isn't,  having him use his legs should be encouraged , whether designed or just telling him to take off immediately if you have the opportunity.  

Either let the d spy and open up the pass or keep running until they have no choice but to spy

 

We need multiple ways to win consistently…so no argument there …..

 

I still maintain that the appalling loss in the Jets game Week  1 was the line in the sand that the Coaches have now decided to rein him in … that was a terrible loss of a game that should have been in the back pocket at half time after the Rodgers injury …

 

The problem is that whilst reining  him in for what went wrong In that game .. they have forgotten the times when he won them games through his unorthodox but “superhuman” play…

 

it would be great if there was a “happy” medium…. Maybe there isn’t and you just have to take the good with the bad … but geez the bad can suck 

 

 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Aussie Joe

[JerseyBills]

3 minutes ago, Aussie Joe said:

 

We need multiple ways to win consistently…so no argument there …..

 

I still maintain that the appalling loss in the Jets game Week  1 was the line in the sand that the Coaches have now decided to rein him in … that was a terrible loss of a game that should have been in the back pocket at half time after the Rodgers injury …

 

The problem is that whilst reining  him in for what went wrong In that game .. they have forgotten the times when he won them games through his unorthodox but “superhuman” play…

 

it would be great if there was a happy medium…

 

 

I think it's moreso the Jets D but could be right about coaching.  

 

They made Allen and Mahomes look bad and Hurts without their top 2 cbs

[Aussie Joe]

3 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

I think it's moreso the Jets D but could be right about coaching.  

 

They made Allen and Mahomes look bad and Hurts without their top 2 cbs

Yeah… it’s a great D they have …. But that game was in the bag at half time with the injury to Rodgers and Zac not playing well ..( he has subsequently got better ) … a conservative approach from JA would have got the Bills home 

[Since1981]

OC is in Josh ear hole on every single snap and more. In addition to scheme play calls, OC can be greatly influencing 17. Does anyone here believe Dorsey is JoshWhispering better than Daboll, Reid etc? Sure feels like 17 lost his sounding board/ two way talkers
 

Edited October 23, 2023 by Since1981

[TAinLack.]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Never thought I'd be saying this but it hit me tonight going through twitter and looking back the last few games and realizing how many times I've shouted at the TV for Josh to run..

The coaches and Beane, for a cpl years now, have openly talked about limiting Josh on the ground and most agreed but we're taking 1 of his biggest assets as a QB away.

Teams don't need to spy as much, there has been so many plays this year where I'm screaming for him to run, never have I in his career prior to this year. 

Today again,  there was 4 -5 plays and multiple in previous  games where he would've gotten positive yardage, possibly big gains but he holds the ball and majority of the plays end up incomplete, sack or int. 

 

I sorely miss the Josh Allen that'd see a lane and would instantly take off every time. This not only helps our O but puts the D on skates and opens up passing lanes. 

 

Why is this happening? Has it been coached out of him? I can't believe I'm saying this even but it's killing us on O. We have no identity on O. Let 17 LOOSE FFS, he looks like he's not even entertaining taking off when there's a big lane and in the past would result in a big play

 

Hecaveraged 7.8 rushes per game last year. This year he has 29 in 7 games, about 4.1 per game and most are qb sneaks. It's definitely hurting the o

 

I agree!  Josh using his legs keeps the defense guessing.  I also believe that when he takes off and gets few big runs or 1st downs that it fires him up and the team too!  Take the ball and chain off him and let him create some offense when his instincts tell him to take off!  All of this can be done  in a safe way simply having Josh get out of bounds asap or sliding early and avoid the hit!

Edited October 23, 2023 by TAinLack.
spelling

[BobbyC81]

1 hour ago, JerseyBills said:

I think it's moreso the Jets D but could be right about coaching.  

 

They made Allen and Mahomes look bad and Hurts without their top 2 cbs

And Saleh even said they’ve embarrassed all the quarterbacks they faced.   😄🙄

[Billsfan1972]

That 4th & two and Dawson Knox dropping the pass (know it won't go down as a drop, but it was) was a perfect example of Josh no longer using his feet.  Old Josh would easily have picked up two plus there and it was available.

 

I too am shouting at the TV to run.

 

OL has been terrible too.

[Mango]

The guy ran 7 times yesterday for 2 yards and change. 
 

I don’t think he’s neutered. I think he’s been asked for years to protect himself and/or the ball which is reasonable. They want Josh running and protecting himself like Mahomes, peak Russ, or even Lamar (sans explosiveness)

 

Asking Josh to not hurdle a 250 lbs DB, or lower his shoulder and take on a LB shouldn’t be this difficult. It’s a reasonable request. 
 

The crazy part to me is that Josh actually has no feel for how to do this. Like it’s not a crazy ask. It doesn’t really change his game. 
 

Kinda like that BS hook and ladder at the end of the game. I would be shocked if that was the play that was drawn up. I’m guessing Josh didn’t see anything, the pocket was collapsing, and he bailed.  It was just a super awkward attempt, right up there with that playoff lateral vs Houston. 

[dickleyjones]

For now, yes, and Josh needs to learn to win that way.

[gjv]

4 hours ago, Herc11 said:

McDermott has the keys to a Ferrari and drives it like a prius.

I wouldn't call the play of Knox, Davis, and missing 5 starters on defense a Ferrari.

[BuffalOhio]

Many times, I've screamed at the TV for him to RUUUUUUNNNN!  

 

However, if you watched the Chief/Chargers yesterday, or the Dolphins most days, you'll see receivers and even tight ends that are schemed wide-open on every play.  Why is this not happening in Buffalo?  It's the conservative mindset of McDermot along with the inability of Dorsey to scheme players open.

[Big Turk]

They have basically neutered their offense by trying to limit Allen's rushing to the degree which they have. It's one thing if you try and tone it down a little...quite another where it seems like Allen is almost scared to try and run now and would rather run around back there and heave up a pass with like a 5% completion chance instead of taking off.  No designed QB runs like QB Power or QB Sweeps, barely willing to take off running until it's the last resort and by that time it's too late.  It's almost like they have sucked the life out of Allen and the offense by doing this to him.

 

They need to let him play...there needs to be a happy medium, this is way too far in the other direction of not running or scrambling anymore.  Yesterday was the most carries he had in a game this year with 7, and 3 of them were sneaks. Last year he already had 4 games with more than 7 carries at this time after 7 games and 3 of those were double digits.

 

They are cutting off their nose to spite their face and making themselves easier to defend.

[Drew21PA]

Think it’s obvious

 

numerous times he’s had a running lane and threw it 

 

 

[Sgt. Ski]

We lost this game because of defensive scheme.  Pats played good d, we did not period! Get a clue people!

[Herc11]

3 hours ago, gjv said:

I wouldn't call the play of Knox, Davis, and missing 5 starters on defense a Ferrari.

 

My statement went over your head. The Ferrari is Josh.

[KeLLy1278]

8 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Never thought I'd be saying this but it hit me tonight going through twitter and looking back the last few games and realizing how many times I've shouted at the TV for Josh to run..

The coaches and Beane, for a cpl years now, have openly talked about limiting Josh on the ground and most agreed but we're taking 1 of his biggest assets as a QB away.

Teams don't need to spy as much, there has been so many plays this year where I'm screaming for him to run, never have I in his career prior to this year. 

Today again,  there was 4 -5 plays and multiple in previous  games where he would've gotten positive yardage, possibly big gains but he holds the ball and majority of the plays end up incomplete, sack or int. 

 

I sorely miss the Josh Allen that'd see a lane and would instantly take off every time. This not only helps our O but puts the D on skates and opens up passing lanes. 

 

Why is this happening? Has it been coached out of him? I can't believe I'm saying this even but it's killing us on O. We have no identity on O. Let 17 LOOSE FFS, he looks like he's not even entertaining taking off when there's a big lane and in the past would result in a big play

 

Hecaveraged 7.8 rushes per game last year. This year he has 29 in 7 games, about 4.1 per game and most are qb sneaks. It's definitely hurting the o

 

Yeah let Josh loose.  Let him take hits from linemen trying to run for a high average.  He’ll get carted off sooner rather than later because of it but at least you will be happy.  The coaches have no idea about letting Allen loose.  Perhaps you should get in touch with them.  Is anyone here close with a member of the coaching staff? 

[First Round Bust]

pocket-passer Josh versus X-factor Josh, both have their pros and cons...but face it...a healthy, upright Josh is what we need now and long-term...sure he can get hurt in the pocket, but we got zero chance to win a game, make the playoffs without him, so being careful is OK...provided:

 

some offensive ideas - Gabe Davis says we need to simplify - so run a hurry-up offense for a few series to catch the d off-balance, get Harty and speed more involved - on some jet sweeps or tunnel screens or quck slants to him or anyone for crying out loud, Daboll would run a trick play once a game such as half-back option pass, tackle eligible catches a pass in red zone that sort of thing.

 

Every season is different - The O is going to have to score more points to win games given the missing valuable D players...and the AFC East now has some good defenses esp Jets and Pats who we play twice.  

[nedboy7]

I think we were all on board with him running less.  It is not panning out the way we hoped. 

[SCBills]

I'm fine without the designed runs, but Allen barely even runs at all anymore.   Mahomes scrambles every game... even Burrow is out there scrambling more than Allen lately. 

[gjv]

44 minutes ago, Herc11 said:

 

My statement went over your head. The Ferrari is Josh.

I don't think so. Allow me to suggest you read "Language in Thought and Action" by Hayakawa.

[Herc11]

4 minutes ago, gjv said:

I don't think so. Allow me to suggest you read "Language in Thought and Action" by Hayakawa.

The thread subject literally is about taking away Josh's running. It's quite obvious my comment was about Josh and not the entire offense. 

 

I'll leave you to your book since it seems like you may need to read up a little more.

[KOKBILLS]

I just copied and pasted the quoted text below from my Twitter account... So I was saying the same basic thing last night...

 

"We all watched Josh pick up a million 1st downs scrambling for yards over the past 5 years. It was seemingly in his DNA to take off and kill Defenses with his legs. Especially scrambling. They have shut that off internally. And that is killing this offense instead."

[gjv]

32 minutes ago, Herc11 said:

The thread subject literally is about taking away Josh's running. It's quite obvious my comment was about Josh and not the entire offense. 

 

I'll leave you to your book since it seems like you may need to read up a little more.

Whether you realize it or not, you have made my point.