4 drives ended by dropped passes

[PBF81]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

Nobody ever argued that losing Milano wouldn't be a problem. But Bernard played a good game, again. Even with clowns to the left of him and jokers to the right. I have certainly never told you we'd be find with Dodson or Williams in. In fact before Bernard came out and showed us he can play I called that position a liability based on pre-season. 

 

I realize that.  My point is that our D clearly wasn't as good with Milano out.  I wasn't paying attention to who was playing the LB positions, and I do note that I saw some numbers that I wasn't familiar with, aka depth players.  

 

My point is entirely that it was risky entering the season with only Milano as a standout LB.  Yeah, Bernard had a good game, I thought that Williams played admirably from what I caught as well.  

 

Again, I don't know why, but allowin nearly 200 rushing yards is a problem.  I haven't looked at why yet, not sure I'm going to.  Time consuming and it is what it is.  I'm focused on the offense this season.  I don't care how good our D is, or conversely isn't, IMO that's not what's going to determine our record or our chances in the playoffs.  I obviously don't speak for everyone, you know that my take is that our defense has failed us in the playoffs and that IMO we'll have a record-setting offense this season.  I still stand by that.  

 

I know your take, if I suggested otherwise it wasn't deliberate.   

 

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

And we didn't have Floyd all day today. He came out of the game too nicked up. We ended the game with a practice squad DTackle playing defensive end on our first unit. We were already down both our starting corners. And our best player on D was gone and replaced by two guys who have no business out there (one not good enough and one currently an overmatched rookie). Add to that Taron missed time... I mean the personnel we had out there at times today on defense was exactly the sort of defense I'd expect a good QB - which Trevor is - to exploit. 

 

Well, last week we had everyone and still allowed nearly 400 net yards.  Again, w/o the key TOs last week,that game is much tighter.  

 

But let's not leap-frog what IMO is the point to all of this, IMO we overrated our defense based upon our play vs. Wilson/Jets' O, Garropalo/Raider's O, and Howell/Skins' O.  Everyone pointed out about our Point Differential, while I pointed out that we've allowed over 100 yards per game more than last season through four games, which IMO was significant given the sentence prior to this one.  As it now stands, last season we allowed an average of 240 YPG while this season we're allowing 325 YPG, last season through 5 games, 61 points, this season, 80 points.  A little of that may have to do with today's game, but hardly all of it.  

 

My point is not necessarily that this D is worse than last season's D, but that last week everyone was arguing that hands down "McD's D was better than Frazier's."  I didn't necessarily see that either.  But by the same standard, what, in one week it went from better to worse?  ... just playing devil's advocate here for the forum. 

 

 

[ILBillsfan]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

How was Josh off?  His first 4 incompletions were 3 drops and a throw away when OL got blown up.  

the under throw to Diggs he was open quick and if the ball is out in font a TD instead diggs had to stopp come back for it off the mark there but a TD to a big completion they didnt score that drive

[TampaBillsJunkie]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

How was Josh off?  His first 4 incompletions were 3 drops and a throw away when OL got blown up.  

Underthrowing the deep balls and missing on a few sideline passes. Josh wasn't at his best, but he didn't suck either. The whole team was off. Jet lagged, snake bit, whatever we call it, but it was hard to watch, especially seeing our best players go down.

[Gunsgoodtime]

6 hours ago, SCBills said:

The Gabe drop was a killer. 
 

We finally had momentum.  Puts us from being 1st down in FG range, down 4 with plenty of time left, to 3rd and long / punt. 

Honestly this play right here changed my mood the rest of the game, it gets soo old seeing it happen to the same person over, and over.  Its really sad, because Gabe does a lot of good things (Big game Gabe!)  But his drops and inconsistencies are soo much it overshadows the good.  Not worth a contract imo, we need to look for a WR 2 next year in the draft or FA.  Before too long, (time passes fast) we will be looking for a #1.  

[PBF81]

6 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Plenty of other factors from injuries to horrific refs that contributed to this loss, but we had 4 drives ended by dropped passes and that’s all in our control.  Would have been 5 too but a penalty negated the play.  
 

Cook, Knox, Diggs, Davis all dropped passes that killed our drives which would have been first downs, with Davis having a second drop for a first down erased off the stat sheet by a penalty.

 

Feels like the only people who showed up to play with any fire today was Allen, Diggs and AJE.  Milano and Daquan get a pass as they were hurt.

 

But the dropped passes in a game where refs were working against us were just killers.

 

Drive 1 ended on a short incompletion to Cook. 

 

Drive 2 ended on a 5-yard pass to Kincaid on 3rd-and-6. 

 

Drive 3 ended on a short incompletion to Knox.  

 

Drive 4 ended on 1-yard pass to Murray on 3rd-and-7.  

 

Drive 5 resulted in a TD to Diggs.  

 

Drive 6 ended on an Allen throwaway incompletion.  

 

Drive 7 ended on a deep incompletion to Knox.  

 

Drive 8 ended on an INT intended for Diggs.  

 

Drive 9 resulted in a TD to Davis. 

 

Drive 10 resulted in an Allen TD run.  

 

Drive 11 ended on a Diggs' fumble.  

 

On our scoring drives, here is the total breakdown by player:  

 

Murray:  2 carries for 6 yards 

Harty:  2 catches for 62 yards 

Cook:  2 catches for 25 yards, 1 run for -2 yards 

Allen:  3 runs for 15 yards and 1 TD  

Diggs:  3 catches for 29 yards and 1 TD

Davis:  4 catches for 82 yards and 1 TD  

Knox:  1 catch for 11 yards 

Sherfield:  1 catch for 3 yards 

Shakir:  1 catch for 11 yards 

 

FWIW  

 

 

[colin]

This is a reasonable point, but where our o really failed was on first down, and up the gut runs out of shotgun.

 

We just don't out pressure on the opponents d when we don't move the ball on first down.  On our two late scoring drives, you could tell out the gate they were good because we hit plays right away, and fairly quickly.  On the rest save one it was just slow and meandering or we got blown up fast.

 

The shotgun hand offs for losses or maybe a short gain gave to go.  They serve no purpose, they make the d account for nothing.  No one has ever bought our play action out of shotgun, rpos and under center play action kills guys, but that one play just has to go.

 

I think the two are related.  Good ds just know a few of our tendencies and attack because that's they only way to stop us.  Mcd needs to scout our own o like he did Miami and show Dorsey what has to get cut out.

[GunnerBill]

56 minutes ago, PBF81 said:

 

I realize that.  My point is that our D clearly wasn't as good with Milano out.  I wasn't paying attention to who was playing the LB positions, and I do note that I saw some numbers that I wasn't familiar with, aka depth players.  

 

My point is entirely that it was risky entering the season with only Milano as a standout LB.  Yeah, Bernard had a good game, I thought that Williams played admirably from what I caught as well.  

 

Again, I don't know why, but allowin nearly 200 rushing yards is a problem.  I haven't looked at why yet, not sure I'm going to.  Time consuming and it is what it is.  I'm focused on the offense this season.  I don't care how good our D is, or conversely isn't, IMO that's not what's going to determine our record or our chances in the playoffs.  I obviously don't speak for everyone, you know that my take is that our defense has failed us in the playoffs and that IMO we'll have a record-setting offense this season.  I still stand by that.  

 

I know your take, if I suggested otherwise it wasn't deliberate.   

 

 

Well, last week we had everyone and still allowed nearly 400 net yards.  Again, w/o the key TOs last week,that game is much tighter.  

 

But let's not leap-frog what IMO is the point to all of this, IMO we overrated our defense based upon our play vs. Wilson/Jets' O, Garropalo/Raider's O, and Howell/Skins' O.  Everyone pointed out about our Point Differential, while I pointed out that we've allowed over 100 yards per game more than last season through four games, which IMO was significant given the sentence prior to this one.  As it now stands, last season we allowed an average of 240 YPG while this season we're allowing 325 YPG, last season through 5 games, 61 points, this season, 80 points.  A little of that may have to do with today's game, but hardly all of it.  

 

My point is not necessarily that this D is worse than last season's D, but that last week everyone was arguing that hands down "McD's D was better than Frazier's."  I didn't necessarily see that either.  But by the same standard, what, in one week it went from better to worse?  ... just playing devil's advocate here for the forum. 

 

 

 

I don't think our defense was overrated through 4 weeks. It was playing incredibly well bar some alignment issues in the first game. What happened today was they ended up talent deficient and that is what showed up. Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

Not Xs and Os. Jimmies and Joes. If a defense of:

 

AJE - Oliver - Phillips - Vickers

Lewis - Bernard - Dodson

Elam - Hyde - Poyer - Jackson 

 

Played 17 games it would finish bottom or very close to bottom in all categories. 

[PBF81]

15 minutes ago, colin said:

This is a reasonable point, but where our o really failed was on first down, and up the gut runs out of shotgun.

 

We just don't out pressure on the opponents d when we don't move the ball on first down.  On our two late scoring drives, you could tell out the gate they were good because we hit plays right away, and fairly quickly.  On the rest save one it was just slow and meandering or we got blown up fast.

 

The shotgun hand offs for losses or maybe a short gain gave to go.  They serve no purpose, they make the d account for nothing.  No one has ever bought our play action out of shotgun, rpos and under center play action kills guys, but that one play just has to go.

 

I think the two are related.  Good ds just know a few of our tendencies and attack because that's they only way to stop us.  Mcd needs to scout our own o like he did Miami and show Dorsey what has to get cut out.

 

You raised an interesting proposition.  I have no immediate thoughts on this, but here are our 1st-Down plays from today.  

 

FWIW ... 

 

1:  Cook right guard for 5 

2:  Cook right guard for -1 

3:  Allen incomplete short right 

4:  Allen complete to Knox for 1 on 1st-and-10 

--------

5:  Allen short right to Diggs for 15 on 1st-and-10 

6:  Allen short left to Davis for 9 on 1st-and-10 

7:  Allen incomplete short right to Diggs 

8:  Allen short middle to Cook for 18 on 1st-and-10 

9:  Allen 7-yard scramble on 1st-and-10 

10:  Allen short right to Diggs for 6 on 1st-and-10 

11:  Allen short right to Diggs for 15/TD on 1st-and-10 

--------

12:  Allen short right to Diggs for 14 yards on 1st-and-10 

13:  Cook RT for no gain 

14:  Allen deep to Diggs for 48 yards on 1st-and-10 

15:  Allen short right to Cook for no gain on 1st-and-10 

--------

16:  Allen short middle to Kincaid on 1st-and-10 

17:  Harris RG for 5 yards on 1st-and-10 

18:  Allen deep right to Davis for 24 on 1st-and-20 

19:  Allen short left to Knox for 11 on 1st-and-20 

20:  Allen short left to Sherfield for 3 on 1st-and-10 

21:  Cook UTM for -2 on 1st-and-10 

22:  Allen incomplete short right to Diggs on 1st-and-Goal at the 9  

23:  Allen deep left to Harty for 43 on 1st-and-10 

24:  Allen deep left to Davis for 29 on 1st-and-10 

25:  Allen incomplete on a throwaway 

26:  Allen deep right to Diggs for 16 on 1st-and-10, Diggs fumbled 

 

 

[Ralonzo]

4 hours ago, RiotAct said:

didn’t we end up forcing a punt eventually anyway?  Granted, from 30-40  yards further upfield.

 

It flipped the momentum that had been snatched by the end of 1st half TD and AJE's triple play.

[Joe Ferguson]

7 hours ago, Beast said:

I hope the Bills don’t make the same mistake by paying “big play Gabe” as they did with stone hands Knox and sign him long term.

Dropson Knox making 14 million a year to drop balls. A great gig if you can get it.

[PBF81]

18 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I don't think our defense was overrated through 4 weeks. It was playing incredibly well bar some alignment issues in the first game. What happened today was they ended up talent deficient and that is what showed up. Nothing more, nothing less. 

 

Not Xs and Os. Jimmies and Joes. If a defense of:

 

AJE - Oliver - Phillips - Vickers

Lewis - Bernard - Dodson

Elam - Hyde - Poyer - Jackson 

 

Played 17 games it would finish bottom or very close to bottom in all categories. 

 

Yes, I realize that you didn't think it was overrated.  I said that I suggested the likely possibility that it was.  I don't expect you or anyone to agree.  

 

The rest sounds like a Beane problem.  

 

When your team is all but entirely reliant upon two or three players, in this case Jones, Milano, White, and a nickel back, for a drop from near 1st in D ranking to as you suggest above, "bottom or very close to bottom," then it's gotta be a GM issue.   Especially when you consider that we were without White for most of last season, Hyde for all of it, Poyer limited, and otherwise hardly without any key injuries despite the one overlapping one of White.  

 

 

[BananaB]

7 hours ago, Miyagi-Do Karate said:

When we go to this short passing offense, it’s all about execution. Can’t have penalties or drops, or you get “off schedule.” 
 

 

Can’t have negative run plays on every drive

[DrDawkinstein]

Tell me if I'm wrong here, and I havent gone back and done the play analysis some of you have, but IIRC...

 

There were a couple 3rd downs that Josh could have run with the ball and likely picked up the first down, and even started to, and then pulled up and tried to toss it instead which resulted in a drop/incompletion and drive kill. I feel it happened at least twice, maybe once to Knox?

 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, PBF81 said:

 

Yes, I realize that you didn't think it was overrated.  I said that I suggested the likely possibility that it was.  I don't expect you or anyone to agree.  

 

The rest sounds like a Beane problem.  

 

When your team is all but entirely reliant upon two or three players, in this case Jones, Milano, White, and a nickel back, for a drop from near 1st in D ranking to as you suggest above, "bottom or very close to bottom," then it's gotta be a GM issue.   Especially when you consider that we were without White for most of last season, Hyde for all of it, Poyer limited, and otherwise hardly without any key injuries despite the one overlapping one of White.  

 

 

 

Milano, White, Rousseau, Von Miller, Daquan Jones. 

 

I mean those 5, plus Oliver, are our best defensive players. Take 5 of the 6 best defensive players off ANY defense in the NFL and they struggle. I don't think that is a GM issue. It is an injury issue. 

 

The only place where you can, IMO, point to Beane based on defensive performance so far is at safety. You expressed that concern in pre-season (and I agreed it was a legit concern) about two old safeties both coming off injury. So far it does look like bringing both back was an error. We look slow back there. That might be a GM mistake. The rest is just injuries that tbh no team in the league would be able to sustain without significant drop off. 

[Thurman#1]

17 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

Plenty of other factors from injuries to horrific refs that contributed to this loss, but we had 4 drives ended by dropped passes and that’s all in our control.  Would have been 5 too but a penalty negated the play.  
 

Cook, Knox, Diggs, Davis all dropped passes that killed our drives which would have been first downs, with Davis having a second drop for a first down erased off the stat sheet by a penalty.

 

Feels like the only people who showed up to play with any fire today was Allen, Diggs and AJE.  Milano and Daquan get a pass as they were hurt.

 

But the dropped passes in a game where refs were working against us were just killers.

 

 

Allen played decently, but not as well as he has been, IMO.

 

That first drive-ending drop is a good example. Cook got his hands on it, but for a very short pass, it was drilled and enough off-target to make it a hard catch to make. There were a few others like that. He really got it together late, but it was just a bit too late. Lots of blame to go around, especially on the offense. The whole group just looked jet lagged through most of the game.

 

I'd throw some of the blame on whoever decided to wait till so late in the week to travel.

 

That was hard to watch.

[Buffalo_Stampede]

7 minutes ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Allen played decently, but not as well as he has been, IMO.

 

That first drive-ending drop is a good example. Cook got his hands on it, but for a very short pass, it was drilled and enough off-target to make it a hard catch to make. There were a few others like that. He really got it together late, but it was just a bit too late. Lots of blame to go around, especially on the offense. The whole group just looked jet lagged through most of the game.

 

I'd throw some of the blame on whoever decided to wait till so late in the week to travel.

 

That was hard to watch.

The travel issue seems to be a major talking point. I really don’t know what research the Bills used here.

 

I think I also heard someone say the plan was to stay up all day Friday after flying in. So they likely were exhausted Saturday. I don’t think 1 day is enough to get your energy back. But I’m not a sports scientist.

 

When you’re exhausted is when injuries can happen.

Edited October 9, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The travel issue seems to be a major talking point. I really don’t know what research the Bills used here.

 

I think I also heard someone say the plan was to stay up all day Friday after flying in. So they likely were exhausted Saturday. I don’t think 1 day is enough to get your energy back. But I’m not a sports scientist.

 

When you’re exhausted is when injuries can happen.

 

Agree. Although I don't think a factor in the Milano injury. I think that was just one of those unfortunate things that can happen. The turf was more of a factor in that than the exhaustion / jetlag IMO.

[Augie]

18 hours ago, Goin Breakdown said:

Penalties sucked and they sure were called against the Bills. Hard to imagine that Jags played "so disciplined"  

 

Maybe they benefitted from the lack of jet lag and the home field advantage. That idiotic arrangement should have been laughed out of the room when it was first mentioned. 

[Mr. WEO]

18 hours ago, SCBills said:

The Gabe drop was a killer. 
 

We finally had momentum.  Puts us from being 1st down in FG range, down 4 with plenty of time left, to 3rd and long / punt. 

 

 

lol "a killer"...with 13;52 left in the 3rd Q down by 4???

 

this place...

[Matt_In_NH]

18 hours ago, BillsFan130 said:

The Knox one wasn’t really a drop, but I still fault him for not making a play/creating separation 

 

The diggs one- are you referring to the 1st down pass that Josh threw to the back shoulder?

I was trying to remember a Knox drop.   We are counting the play where it got a hand on the overthrow as a drop?   Next thread…