jwhit34 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 It seems that it has been said so many times that Sean McDermott does not usually give substantial playing time to rookies that this is accepted as fact. I looked at the snap counts of all draft picks that made the roster in their rookie year from 2017-2022. Here is what I found, grouping by round: First Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. White 1,093 99% J. Allen 719 68% T. Edmunds 926 91% E. Oliver 556 54% (most by a DT, only behind Hughes and Murphy on DL who had 64% and 65%) G. Rousseau 531 49% (3rd most behind Oliver and Hughes, 58% and 52%) K. Elam 477 45% (3rd behind D. Jackson and T. Johnson) 2nd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps Z. Jones 792 75% D. Dawkins 781 74% C. Ford 739 69% (5th on OL) A. Epenesa 291 27% B. Basham 201 19% J. Cook 269 25% 3rd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps H. Phillips 389 38% (3rd for DT behind K. Williams and Star) D. Singletary 530 50% (most by RB, Gore 2nd with 35%) D. Knox 646 60% (more than double any TE) Z. Moss 403 37% (2nd to Singletary) S. Brown 726 61% T. Bernard 110 11% 4th Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. Johnson 405 40% (only behind White and Wallace) G. Davis 797 73% Notables - Rounds 5-7 Matt Milano (5th) played 41% of snaps but started last half of season Wyatt Teller (5th) played 45% of snaps and had 3rd highest # for guards Darryl Johnson (7th) played 22% of snaps Tyler Bass (6th) has been their kicker since his rookie year Dane Jackson (7th) played 18% of snaps Christian Benford (6tth) played 34% of snaps despite his injuries Conclusions: First rounders have all started their rookie year with Elam the only one that was a part time starter. 2nd rounders have played less as the team has gotten better. Bernard has been the only 3rd rounder who did not get significant playing time as a rookie. The 3rd round has been pretty good for them. Beane likes to trade his 4th round picks but given the success of Davis and Johnson maybe he should hang onto them more often. Rounds 5-7 you don't expect contributions right away but it seems just about every year they find someone who can get on the field. Opinion seems to be influenced by the last 2-3 draft classes. The reality is that as the team has gotten better it is more difficult for rookies to play a lot in their first year, it's not necessarily that the coaches don't want to play rookies. This data would indicate that McDermott does not hesitate to use rookies in meaningful roles in their first year. 10 1 4 6 19 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Punching Bag Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 There are facts, faux facts and facts which do not agree what you want to rant about but who cares about those? 1 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
MJS Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Yes, people who say this are hyper focused on Elam and Cook and not considering previous years where clearly rookies have been major contributors and sometimes given starting jobs immediately. It is a false and lazy narrative. 6 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Thanks for this. Haters will still hate. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Brown Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 My concern with Elam is the fact that McDermott usually does start his first round rookies their rookie season. The fact that he was benched for the corpse of Xavier Rhodes against the Pats last year was concerning. The fact that a fifth round rookie the same year split time with him last year is concerning. That he's not the clear cut starting CB opposite Tre White going into this year is concerning. If you can't tell I'm concerned. 3 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Beck Water Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 (edited) 8 hours ago, jwhit34 said: It seems that it has been said so many times that Sean McDermott does not usually give substantial playing time to rookies that this is accepted as fact. I looked at the snap counts of all draft picks that made the roster in their rookie year from 2017-2022. Here is what I found, grouping by round: First Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. White 1,093 99% J. Allen 719 68% T. Edmunds 926 91% E. Oliver 556 54% (most by a DT, only behind Hughes and Murphy on DL who had 64% and 65%) G. Rousseau 531 49% (3rd most behind Oliver and Hughes, 58% and 52%) K. Elam 477 45% (3rd behind D. Jackson and T. Johnson) 2nd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps Z. Jones 792 75% D. Dawkins 781 74% C. Ford 739 69% (5th on OL) A. Epenesa 291 27% B. Basham 201 19% J. Cook 269 25% 3rd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps H. Phillips 389 38% (3rd for DT behind K. Williams and Star) D. Singletary 530 50% (most by RB, Gore 2nd with 35%) D. Knox 646 60% (more than double any TE) Z. Moss 403 37% (2nd to Singletary) S. Brown 726 61% T. Bernard 110 11% 4th Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. Johnson 405 40% (only behind White and Wallace) G. Davis 797 73% Notables - Rounds 5-7 Matt Milano (5th) played 41% of snaps but started last half of season Wyatt Teller (5th) played 45% of snaps and had 3rd highest # for guards Darryl Johnson (7th) played 22% of snaps Tyler Bass (6th) has been their kicker since his rookie year Dane Jackson (7th) played 18% of snaps Christian Benford (6tth) played 34% of snaps despite his injuries Conclusions: First rounders have all started their rookie year with Elam the only one that was a part time starter. 2nd rounders have played less as the team has gotten better. Bernard has been the only 3rd rounder who did not get significant playing time as a rookie. The 3rd round has been pretty good for them. Beane likes to trade his 4th round picks but given the success of Davis and Johnson maybe he should hang onto them more often. Rounds 5-7 you don't expect contributions right away but it seems just about every year they find someone who can get on the field. Opinion seems to be influenced by the last 2-3 draft classes. The reality is that as the team has gotten better it is more difficult for rookies to play a lot in their first year, it's not necessarily that the coaches don't want to play rookies. This data would indicate that McDermott does not hesitate to use rookies in meaningful roles in their first year. Awesome post! Thank you for putting this together! This was educational for me - I was under the impression Rousseau had not started his rookie year but after your comment about Elam, I looked it up and learned he had started all 17 games. Taron Johnson's 40% is a little bit deceptive. He was inactive his second game, then inactive/IR the last 4 (injury). And his first game and one other, he played only 21% of the snaps. But the rest of the games, he was playing >50% of the snaps, up to 92% (he was playing nickel) Edited August 7, 2023 by Beck Water 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Yea the guys they have been reluctant to put out there are the guys they haven't felt are ready. Elam (although they gave him more time as the year went on), AJE, Boogie, Bernard..... James Cook might be the one case where maybe they under trusted (if that is even a phrase) him as a rook. I think him putting the ball on the floor with his first NFL carry contributed a lot to that. Took him a while to fight out of the doghouse. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloBillyG Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 6 hours ago, jwhit34 said: It seems that it has been said so many times that Sean McDermott does not usually give substantial playing time to rookies that this is accepted as fact. I looked at the snap counts of all draft picks that made the roster in their rookie year from 2017-2022. Here is what I found, grouping by round: First Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. White 1,093 99% J. Allen 719 68% T. Edmunds 926 91% E. Oliver 556 54% (most by a DT, only behind Hughes and Murphy on DL who had 64% and 65%) G. Rousseau 531 49% (3rd most behind Oliver and Hughes, 58% and 52%) K. Elam 477 45% (3rd behind D. Jackson and T. Johnson) 2nd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps Z. Jones 792 75% D. Dawkins 781 74% C. Ford 739 69% (5th on OL) A. Epenesa 291 27% B. Basham 201 19% J. Cook 269 25% 3rd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps H. Phillips 389 38% (3rd for DT behind K. Williams and Star) D. Singletary 530 50% (most by RB, Gore 2nd with 35%) D. Knox 646 60% (more than double any TE) Z. Moss 403 37% (2nd to Singletary) S. Brown 726 61% T. Bernard 110 11% 4th Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. Johnson 405 40% (only behind White and Wallace) G. Davis 797 73% Notables - Rounds 5-7 Matt Milano (5th) played 41% of snaps but started last half of season Wyatt Teller (5th) played 45% of snaps and had 3rd highest # for guards Darryl Johnson (7th) played 22% of snaps Tyler Bass (6th) has been their kicker since his rookie year Dane Jackson (7th) played 18% of snaps Christian Benford (6tth) played 34% of snaps despite his injuries Conclusions: First rounders have all started their rookie year with Elam the only one that was a part time starter. 2nd rounders have played less as the team has gotten better. Bernard has been the only 3rd rounder who did not get significant playing time as a rookie. The 3rd round has been pretty good for them. Beane likes to trade his 4th round picks but given the success of Davis and Johnson maybe he should hang onto them more often. Rounds 5-7 you don't expect contributions right away but it seems just about every year they find someone who can get on the field. Opinion seems to be influenced by the last 2-3 draft classes. The reality is that as the team has gotten better it is more difficult for rookies to play a lot in their first year, it's not necessarily that the coaches don't want to play rookies. This data would indicate that McDermott does not hesitate to use rookies in meaningful roles in their first year. Outstanding post. Thank you for doing the leg work on this. 3 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Whkfc Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Great breakdown that is doing the lords work. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaB Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 While trying to prove one point you ignored another point. Seems like over the past few years the players are getting less time. Which is what most are saying. The players that started more early in McDs tenure had to start because they were basically rebuilding. We got alot out of those guys, they are the backbone of the team right now. Which proves getting them on the field helps their progression Lately guys are not getting on the field as much and there is alot of frustration with why we picked these guys because they ain’t helping the team. Especially with the high picks 1 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BobbyC81 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 3 hours ago, GunnerBill said: Yea the guys they have been reluctant to put out there are the guys they haven't felt are ready. Elam (although they gave him more time as the year went on), AJE, Boogie, Bernard..... James Cook might be the one case where maybe they under trusted (if that is even a phrase) him as a rook. I think him putting the ball on the floor with his first NFL carry contributed a lot to that. Took him a while to fight out of the doghouse. And he didn’t fumble again for the rest of the season Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Royale with Cheese Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 8 minutes ago, BananaB said: While trying to prove one point you ignored another point. Seems like over the past few years the players are getting less time. Which is what most are saying. The players that started more early in McDs tenure had to start because they were basically rebuilding. We got alot out of those guys, they are the backbone of the team right now. Which proves getting them on the field helps their progression Lately guys are not getting on the field as much and there is alot of frustration with why we picked these guys because they ain’t helping the team. Especially with the high picks Lately? Outside of Elam (who still played 45% of the snaps) what high draft pick isn’t on the field? If being on the field proves that it helps their progression, why does Cody Ford suck then? He played early…. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
WhoTom Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 20 minutes ago, BananaB said: While trying to prove one point you ignored another point. Seems like over the past few years the players are getting less time. OP addressed that point: 7 hours ago, jwhit34 said: The reality is that as the team has gotten better it is more difficult for rookies to play a lot in their first year, it's not necessarily that the coaches don't want to play rookies. 2 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BananaB Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 18 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said: Lately? Outside of Elam (who still played 45% of the snaps) what high draft pick isn’t on the field? If being on the field proves that it helps their progression, why does Cody Ford suck then? He played early…. Dude look at your post, the top two rounds are in a decline. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 37 minutes ago, BananaB said: While trying to prove one point you ignored another point. Seems like over the past few years the players are getting less time. Which is what most are saying. The players that started more early in McDs tenure had to start because they were basically rebuilding. We got alot out of those guys, they are the backbone of the team right now. Which proves getting them on the field helps their progression Lately guys are not getting on the field as much and there is alot of frustration with why we picked these guys because they ain’t helping the team. Especially with the high picks You're talking about Cook, and only Cook, because Elam played SIGNIFICANT snaps last year Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 7 hours ago, jwhit34 said: It seems that it has been said so many times that Sean McDermott does not usually give substantial playing time to rookies that this is accepted as fact. I looked at the snap counts of all draft picks that made the roster in their rookie year from 2017-2022. Here is what I found, grouping by round: First Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. White 1,093 99% J. Allen 719 68% T. Edmunds 926 91% E. Oliver 556 54% (most by a DT, only behind Hughes and Murphy on DL who had 64% and 65%) G. Rousseau 531 49% (3rd most behind Oliver and Hughes, 58% and 52%) K. Elam 477 45% (3rd behind D. Jackson and T. Johnson) 2nd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps Z. Jones 792 75% D. Dawkins 781 74% C. Ford 739 69% (5th on OL) A. Epenesa 291 27% B. Basham 201 19% J. Cook 269 25% 3rd Round Player # Snaps % Snaps H. Phillips 389 38% (3rd for DT behind K. Williams and Star) D. Singletary 530 50% (most by RB, Gore 2nd with 35%) D. Knox 646 60% (more than double any TE) Z. Moss 403 37% (2nd to Singletary) S. Brown 726 61% T. Bernard 110 11% 4th Round Player # Snaps % Snaps T. Johnson 405 40% (only behind White and Wallace) G. Davis 797 73% Notables - Rounds 5-7 Matt Milano (5th) played 41% of snaps but started last half of season Wyatt Teller (5th) played 45% of snaps and had 3rd highest # for guards Darryl Johnson (7th) played 22% of snaps Tyler Bass (6th) has been their kicker since his rookie year Dane Jackson (7th) played 18% of snaps Christian Benford (6tth) played 34% of snaps despite his injuries Conclusions: First rounders have all started their rookie year with Elam the only one that was a part time starter. 2nd rounders have played less as the team has gotten better. Bernard has been the only 3rd rounder who did not get significant playing time as a rookie. The 3rd round has been pretty good for them. Beane likes to trade his 4th round picks but given the success of Davis and Johnson maybe he should hang onto them more often. Rounds 5-7 you don't expect contributions right away but it seems just about every year they find someone who can get on the field. Opinion seems to be influenced by the last 2-3 draft classes. The reality is that as the team has gotten better it is more difficult for rookies to play a lot in their first year, it's not necessarily that the coaches don't want to play rookies. This data would indicate that McDermott does not hesitate to use rookies in meaningful roles in their first year. Data? What’s data mean? Just playing. Good work. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Excellent analysis!! Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Ethan in Cleveland Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Excellent data. A few caveats though... Allen didn't start right away. Somehow this coach thought it better to start Peterman. I don't for one second believe he thought Peterman was better. I think he was of the mindset to let Allen sit and learn as many coaches do with young QBs. But because Peterman was trash he was forced to play Allen. Edmunds, White, Dawkins, Oliver, and Knox all started because there were literally no other options. Bills got rid of the previous starters and did nothing in free agency to replace them. They were all good need picks by Beane except Oliver which I still hate that pick. Oliver started but was relegated to second string mid-season. He always seems to look good in camp and then rarely makes plays during the season. I agree though the narrative is overblown. I think if you go back it stems from Gore getting reps over Singletary and effectively benching Cook for his first carry fumble - which was pop-warner level coaching. Add Elam not even dressing for a game and it added fuel to a fire that really shouldn't exist. 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Allen2Moulds Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 Great post. I think McD is really hard on 1st year players, in order to set the tone early. I don't have a problem with that. The thing that sticks out to me, is how badly Beane has drafted in the 2nd round, but hopefully that changes with O'Cyrus this year. He's done much better in just about every other round. 1 1 Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PBF81 Posted August 7, 2023 Share Posted August 7, 2023 2 minutes ago, Ethan in Cleveland said: Allen didn't start right away. Somehow this coach thought it better to start Peterman. I don't for one second believe he thought Peterman was better. I think he was of the mindset to let Allen sit and learn as many coaches do with young QBs. But because Peterman was trash he was forced to play Allen. Keep in mind tho that McD did say at one point that Peterman gave them the best chance to win. FWIW Whether he may have just said that without believing it, who knows. But it's not as if Peterman had any more experience or other credentials to substantiate that position. Again, FWIW. 4 minutes ago, Allen2Moulds said: Great post. I think McD is really hard on 1st year players, in order to set the tone early. I don't have a problem with that. The thing that sticks out to me, is how badly Beane has drafted in the 2nd round, but hopefully that changes with O'Cyrus this year. He's done much better in just about every other round. Jury's still out on Cook too. Quote Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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