Allen stats compared to Peyton Manning 👀

[JoPoy88]

On 7/4/2023 at 2:14 PM, Dr.Sack said:

Where are the different era excuse makers?

Back on pages 2 and 3

[Alphadawg7]

1 hour ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

 

And 2007 was still FIVE YEARS AFTER Peyton's 5th season in 2002. 

 

I have no idea why you are fighting this losing battle. You might as well as say Joe Montana and Peyton Manning (20 year spread between rookie seasons) played in the same era if you are going to say Allen and Peyton (21 year spread between rookie seasons) played in the same era. 

 

2002 - (1) QB had a passer rating above 100

2022 - (6) QB's had a passer rating above 100

 

And the above are not anomalies for those eras. In Peyton's first five seasons from '98 to '02, there were three seasons where only one QB posted a 100+ passer rating. And in Allen's first five seasons, this past season was actually the fewest number of QB's to post 100+ ratings. The other four seasons saw, 8, 9, 9 and 10 QB's post ratings above 100. 

 

Furthermore, 

 

2002 - (4) QB's had a passer rating above 90

2022- (18) QB's had a passer rating above 90

 

In the late 90's / early 2000's you were an elite QB is your rating was above 90. Today, you could be a bottom half of the league QB with a 90 rating.

 

You guys and your cherry picking stats with no context.  What you are talking about refers to the quality of the league, not the era of football.  It was a "passing league" MOST of Mannings career.  To say it wasn't just isn't factual.  

 

I mean you have to be kidding here comparing the QB group of 2002 to the one in 2022.  NFL leading passer with 4700 yards was a journeyman backup QB in Rich Gannon who came to life end of his career for a few seasons.  NFL leading passer in 2022 was what might be the greatest QB to ever play the game when he is done in Mahomes.  

 

In 2022 Kerry Collins and broken down Daunte Culpepper were top 5 in yards.  In 2022 the top 5 consisted of Mahomes (might end up GOAT), Brady the actual GOAT, Herbert (one of the best young QB's to enter the league in 10 years), Burrow (even better than Herbert), and Cousins who would have probably been a top 4 QB in 2002.  

 

Just saying "it was an entirely different era" because you think its been long enough to say that doesn't make it true.  Doesn't take much effort to find the actual facts of the evolution of the passing league through google:

 

Since 1995, the NFL has allowed a WR forced out of bounds by a defender to return in bounds and make a play. This helped eliminate the move of "chucking" a WR out of bounds to remove him from a play. In 1996, the NFL announced they'd actually enforce the illegal contact penalty, created in 1978, more stringently than before. The rule was no longer just a recommendation. In 2001, the NFL announced Roughing the QB penalty would be enforced more strictly and specifically targeted late hits. By 2002, they protected the QB even further by barring helmet-to-helmet contact with a QB at any time, even after a change of possession. The NFL again tightened down enforcement of already existing rules for illegal contact, pass interference, and defensive holding in 2004. QBs received even more protection in 2006 when the NFL barred hits to the QBs below their knees unless the defensive player was blocked into the QB.

 

The NFL began trying to elevate the passing game and give WR's more options and space in 1995 and 1996, prior to Mannings arrival in the NFL.  The NFL furthered the efforts towards the passing game in 2001 by protecting the QB with strict roughing the passer enforcement.  In 2002, no helmet to helmet contact allowed with the QB.  All of these rules were designed to improve scoring and passing offenses, and it all began BEFORE Manning entered the league and continued with big changes in Mannings 3rd and 4th seasons. 

 

Sorry...no disrespect, but Manning entered the league at a time the NFL had ALREADY been transitioning to boost scoring and passing specifically, and many of the biggest changes were adopted before he got in the league and early on in his career.  To say it was a "completely different era" is an over exaggeration.  

[BigDingus]

2 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You guys and your cherry picking stats with no context.  What you are talking about refers to the quality of the league, not the era of football.  It was a "passing league" MOST of Mannings career.  To say it wasn't just isn't factual.  

 

I mean you have to be kidding here comparing the QB group of 2002 to the one in 2022.  NFL leading passer with 4700 yards was a journeyman backup QB in Rich Gannon who came to life end of his career for a few seasons.  NFL leading passer in 2022 was what might be the greatest QB to ever play the game when he is done in Mahomes.  

 

In 2022 Kerry Collins and broken down Daunte Culpepper were top 5 in yards.  In 2022 the top 5 consisted of Mahomes (might end up GOAT), Brady the actual GOAT, Herbert (one of the best young QB's to enter the league in 10 years), Burrow (even better than Herbert), and Cousins who would have probably been a top 4 QB in 2002.  

 

Just saying "it was an entirely different era" because you think its been long enough to say that doesn't make it true.  Doesn't take much effort to find the actual facts of the evolution of the passing league through google:

 

Since 1995, the NFL has allowed a WR forced out of bounds by a defender to return in bounds and make a play. This helped eliminate the move of "chucking" a WR out of bounds to remove him from a play. In 1996, the NFL announced they'd actually enforce the illegal contact penalty, created in 1978, more stringently than before. The rule was no longer just a recommendation. In 2001, the NFL announced Roughing the QB penalty would be enforced more strictly and specifically targeted late hits. By 2002, they protected the QB even further by barring helmet-to-helmet contact with a QB at any time, even after a change of possession. The NFL again tightened down enforcement of already existing rules for illegal contact, pass interference, and defensive holding in 2004. QBs received even more protection in 2006 when the NFL barred hits to the QBs below their knees unless the defensive player was blocked into the QB.

 

The NFL began trying to elevate the passing game and give WR's more options and space in 1995 and 1996, prior to Mannings arrival in the NFL.  The NFL furthered the efforts towards the passing game in 2001 by protecting the QB with strict roughing the passer enforcement.  In 2002, no helmet to helmet contact allowed with the QB.  All of these rules were designed to improve scoring and passing offenses, and it all began BEFORE Manning entered the league and continued with big changes in Mannings 3rd and 4th seasons. 

 

Sorry...no disrespect, but Manning entered the league at a time the NFL had ALREADY been transitioning to boost scoring and passing specifically, and many of the biggest changes were adopted before he got in the league and early on in his career.  To say it was a "completely different era" is an over exaggeration.  

 

This is only partially true. Just look at the passing leaders for Manning's first 4 years compared to Josh's:

 

1998: #1 ) Brett Favre - 4,212 yards / 31 TD's / 23 INT's

          #2) Steve Young - 4,170 yards / 36 TD's / 12 INT's (they were the only 2 players with 4,000 yards, and only 1 more had 30+ TD's)

 

2018: #1) Big Ben - 5,129 yards / 34 TD's / 16 INT's

          #2) Mahomes - 5,097 yards / 50 TD's / 12 INT's (plus 10 more players with over 4,000 yards & 7 more players with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

1999: #1) Steve Beurelein - 4,436 yards / 36 TD's / 15 INT's

          #2) Kurt Warner - 4,353 yards / 41 TD's 13 INT's (plus 3 more players with 4,000 yards, and nobody else with 30+ TD's)

 

2019: #1) Jameis Winston (LOL) - 5,109 yards / 33 TD's / 30 INT's

          #2) Dak Prescott - 4,902 yards / 30 TD's / 11 INT's (plus 9 more players with 4,000 yards, and 3 more with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

2000: #1) Peyton Manning - 4,413 yards / 33 TD's / 15 INT's

           #2) Jeff Garcia - 4,278 yards / 31 TD's / 10 INT's (plus 1 more player with 4,000 yards, and 1 more with 30+ TD's)

 

2020: #1) Deshaun Watson - 4,823 yards / 33 TD's / 7 INT's

          #2) Mahomes - 4,740 yards / 38 TD's / 6 INT's

    Bonus: Aaron Rodgers - 4,299 yards / 48 TD's / 5 INT's  (plus 9 more with 4,000 yards, and 8 more with 30+ TD's...including 3 with 40+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

2001: #1) Kurt Warner - 4,830 yards / 36 TD's / 22 INT's

          #2) Peyton Manning - 4,131 yards / 26 TD's / 23 INT's (0 more with 4,000 yards, and 2 more with 30+ TD's)

 

2021: #1) Tom Brady - 5,316 yards / 43 TD's / 12 INT's

         #2) Justin Herbert - 5,014 yards / 38 TD's / 15 INT's (plus 8 more with 4,000 yards, and 7 more with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

So the league was MASSIVELY different in Manning's early career compared to Josh. Of the above years I compared, 1999 was the only year 5 players breaking 4,000 yards... In 2001, only TWO players did that. Zero QB's broke 40 TD's besides Warner in '99, but today you have QB's breaking 5,000 yards & 50 TD's! 

 

And that's only comparing passing stats! If you add rushing, QB's today go even crazier. Efficiency has also gone up a ton (aside from Jameis Winson). In 2001, both passing leaders had over 20 INT's to go with their 4,000 yard seasons. Today, Josh is known as a "turnover machine" with 15 INT's + 6 fumbles. Aaron Rodgers threw for 48 TD's to 5 INT's! 

 

Again, the rule changes aren't the issue. It's the offenses, playcalling & coaches that have changed, combined with the people playing QB compared to 20 years ago.

 

 

         

 

Edited July 6, 2023 by BigDingus

[GunnerBill]

47 minutes ago, BigDingus said:

 

This is only partially true. Just look at the passing leaders for Manning's first 4 years compared to Josh's:

 

1998: #1 ) Brett Favre - 4,212 yards / 31 TD's / 23 INT's

          #2) Steve Young - 4,170 yards / 36 TD's / 12 INT's (they were the only 2 players with 4,000 yards, and only 1 more had 30+ TD's)

 

2018: #1) Big Ben - 5,129 yards / 34 TD's / 16 INT's

          #2) Mahomes - 5,097 yards / 50 TD's / 12 INT's (plus 10 more players with over 4,000 yards & 7 more players with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

1999: #1) Steve Beurelein - 4,436 yards / 36 TD's / 15 INT's

          #2) Kurt Warner - 4,353 yards / 41 TD's 13 INT's (plus 3 more players with 4,000 yards, and nobody else with 30+ TD's)

 

2019: #1) Jameis Winston (LOL) - 5,109 yards / 33 TD's / 30 INT's

          #2) Dak Prescott - 4,902 yards / 30 TD's / 11 INT's (plus 9 more players with 4,000 yards, and 3 more with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

2000: #1) Peyton Manning - 4,413 yards / 33 TD's / 15 INT's

           #2) Jeff Garcia - 4,278 yards / 31 TD's / 10 INT's (plus 1 more player with 4,000 yards, and 1 more with 30+ TD's)

 

2020: #1) Deshaun Watson - 4,823 yards / 33 TD's / 7 INT's

          #2) Mahomes - 4,740 yards / 38 TD's / 6 INT's

    Bonus: Aaron Rodgers - 4,299 yards / 48 TD's / 5 INT's  (plus 9 more with 4,000 yards, and 8 more with 30+ TD's...including 3 with 40+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

2001: #1) Kurt Warner - 4,830 yards / 36 TD's / 22 INT's

          #2) Peyton Manning - 4,131 yards / 26 TD's / 23 INT's (0 more with 4,000 yards, and 2 more with 30+ TD's)

 

2021: #1) Tom Brady - 5,316 yards / 43 TD's / 12 INT's

         #2) Justin Herbert - 5,014 yards / 38 TD's / 15 INT's (plus 8 more with 4,000 yards, and 7 more with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

So the league was MASSIVELY different in Manning's early career compared to Josh. Of the above years I compared, 1999 was the only year 5 players breaking 4,000 yards... In 2001, only TWO players did that. Zero QB's broke 40 TD's besides Warner in '99, but today you have QB's breaking 5,000 yards & 50 TD's! 

 

And that's only comparing passing stats! If you add rushing, QB's today go even crazier. Efficiency has also gone up a ton (aside from Jameis Winson). In 2001, both passing leaders had over 20 INT's to go with their 4,000 yard seasons. Today, Josh is known as a "turnover machine" with 15 INT's + 6 fumbles. Aaron Rodgers threw for 48 TD's to 5 INT's! 

 

Again, the rule changes aren't the issue. It's the offenses, playcalling & coaches that have changed, combined with the people playing QB compared to 20 years ago.

 

 

         

 

 

Yea while the league had already started down the road of making the passing game easier it hadn't made much progress in the early 00s - witness the Patriots "holding" quite literally the Greatest Show on Turf in the Superbowl. 

 

The 2004 changes were, essentially, and admission that what they had tried before had not had the desired effect. 

 

I watched that Superbowl back on NFLN a few weeks ago when the replayed it. It bears little resemblence to the way you can play defense today. Witness the penalty called on the Eagles at the end of this year's. 

[StHustle]

I can't stand all the turnover talk like it cost us games. We lost 3 all season by a combined total of 8 points...In the playoff loss he had one turnover and that's not why we lost.

 

It would obviously be better not to have as many INTs and fumbles, but my point is  they have basically been non-consequential. Nowhere near the factor it's made out to be.

[CincyBillsFan]

2 hours ago, StHustle said:

I can't stand all the turnover talk like it cost us games. We lost 3 all season by a combined total of 8 points...In the playoff loss he had one turnover and that's not why we lost.

 

It would obviously be better not to have as many INTs and fumbles, but my point is  they have basically been non-consequential. Nowhere near the factor it's made out to be.

Bingo.  It's lazy the way some posters throw this stat out.  Allen, who is on his way to being the most effective duel threat QB in NFL history (if he already isn't) will always have more total TO's.  It's the nature of how he plays the position. 

 

The key point you have identified is how badly have Allen's TO's hurt the team? Last year ONLY ONE LOSS, the Vikings could be plausibility put on Allen's TO's.

 

Even worse then the ignorant posters are the ones distorting the TO stats to dump on Allen.  You know the ones who throw out TOTAL fumbles and not fumbles lost or who whine about how Allen's TO's kept the Miami playoff game close as if his nearly 400 yards of total offense and 3 TD's didn't mean anything in a WIN.

 

I expect this kind of stuff when I check out a Dolphins or Patriots message board but seeing it here on a Bills message board?  And then to be labeled a "homer" for objecting and pointing out how dishonest these people are.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

7 hours ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

You guys and your cherry picking stats with no context.  What you are talking about refers to the quality of the league, not the era of football.  It was a "passing league" MOST of Mannings career.  To say it wasn't just isn't factual.  

 

 

Explain to me how five years of stats for each generation is cherry picking.

 

I already said that the single year I pointed out, was not an anomaly for the other four years.

 

with every decade that goes by and really every season, the game becomes that much more of a passing league. Whether it’s inch by inch or leaps and bounds.

 

we shouldn’t be surprised at all, that when you take a 20 year span between seasons that we see massive differences in the average yards and efficiency put up.

 

as others have already mentioned, Allen should be compared to his peers. And by that metric loan, he is outstanding.

 

Josh Allen stats are largely better than Peyton Manning stats in each players first five seasons. And really that should be expected.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Bingo.  It's lazy the way some posters throw this stat out.  Allen, who is on his way to being the most effective duel threat QB in NFL history (if he already isn't) will always have more total TO's.  It's the nature of how he plays the position. 

 

The key point you have identified is how badly have Allen's TO's hurt the team? Last year ONLY ONE LOSS, the Vikings could be plausibility put on Allen's TO's.

 

Even worse then the ignorant posters are the ones distorting the TO stats to dump on Allen.  You know the ones who throw out TOTAL fumbles and not fumbles lost or who whine about how Allen's TO's kept the Miami playoff game close as if his nearly 400 yards of total offense and 3 TD's didn't mean anything in a WIN.

 

I expect this kind of stuff when I check out a Dolphins or Patriots message board but seeing it here on a Bills message board?  And then to be labeled a "homer" for objecting and pointing out how dishonest these people are.

 

 

His turnovers DID keep the Dolphins game close. His brilliant plays also WERE the main reason we won. The two in that case are not mutually exclusive. 

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, BigDingus said:

 

This is only partially true. Just look at the passing leaders for Manning's first 4 years compared to Josh's:

 

1998: #1 ) Brett Favre - 4,212 yards / 31 TD's / 23 INT's

          #2) Steve Young - 4,170 yards / 36 TD's / 12 INT's (they were the only 2 players with 4,000 yards, and only 1 more had 30+ TD's)

 

2018: #1) Big Ben - 5,129 yards / 34 TD's / 16 INT's

          #2) Mahomes - 5,097 yards / 50 TD's / 12 INT's (plus 10 more players with over 4,000 yards & 7 more players with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

1999: #1) Steve Beurelein - 4,436 yards / 36 TD's / 15 INT's

          #2) Kurt Warner - 4,353 yards / 41 TD's 13 INT's (plus 3 more players with 4,000 yards, and nobody else with 30+ TD's)

 

2019: #1) Jameis Winston (LOL) - 5,109 yards / 33 TD's / 30 INT's

          #2) Dak Prescott - 4,902 yards / 30 TD's / 11 INT's (plus 9 more players with 4,000 yards, and 3 more with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

2000: #1) Peyton Manning - 4,413 yards / 33 TD's / 15 INT's

           #2) Jeff Garcia - 4,278 yards / 31 TD's / 10 INT's (plus 1 more player with 4,000 yards, and 1 more with 30+ TD's)

 

2020: #1) Deshaun Watson - 4,823 yards / 33 TD's / 7 INT's

          #2) Mahomes - 4,740 yards / 38 TD's / 6 INT's

    Bonus: Aaron Rodgers - 4,299 yards / 48 TD's / 5 INT's  (plus 9 more with 4,000 yards, and 8 more with 30+ TD's...including 3 with 40+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

2001: #1) Kurt Warner - 4,830 yards / 36 TD's / 22 INT's

          #2) Peyton Manning - 4,131 yards / 26 TD's / 23 INT's (0 more with 4,000 yards, and 2 more with 30+ TD's)

 

2021: #1) Tom Brady - 5,316 yards / 43 TD's / 12 INT's

         #2) Justin Herbert - 5,014 yards / 38 TD's / 15 INT's (plus 8 more with 4,000 yards, and 7 more with 30+ TD's)

 

*******************************

 

So the league was MASSIVELY different in Manning's early career compared to Josh. Of the above years I compared, 1999 was the only year 5 players breaking 4,000 yards... In 2001, only TWO players did that. Zero QB's broke 40 TD's besides Warner in '99, but today you have QB's breaking 5,000 yards & 50 TD's! 

 

And that's only comparing passing stats! If you add rushing, QB's today go even crazier. Efficiency has also gone up a ton (aside from Jameis Winson). In 2001, both passing leaders had over 20 INT's to go with their 4,000 yard seasons. Today, Josh is known as a "turnover machine" with 15 INT's + 6 fumbles. Aaron Rodgers threw for 48 TD's to 5 INT's! 

 

Again, the rule changes aren't the issue. It's the offenses, playcalling & coaches that have changed, combined with the people playing QB compared to 20 years ago.

 

 

         

 

It wasn’t massively different.  The rules began being adopted before Manning got to the NFL and over Mannings first 4 seasons. 
 

Again, if people want to isolate a tiny portion of Mannings career and say “it was a different era”, then that’s their prerogative.  But the facts are, the rule changes to help WRs happened before Manning got to the league, and the hands off the QB rules (one of the most significant changes, if not the most significant change) came about in his 3rd year and doubled down in his fourth year.  
 

The league was centered on high octane scoring and passing pretty much the majority of Mannings career.  
 

So like I said, the different era stance is an over exaggeration.  The majority of Mannings career the NFL was, and still is, focused on passing the ball and scoring points. 

Edited July 6, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[Bob Jones]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:02 PM, wppete said:

Peyton Mannings arm doesn’t even compare to the rocket 🚀 arm Josh’s Allen has. 

Maybe, but accuracy is way, WAY more important. I saw PM play in person several times, and he had more than enough "zip" to get the ball in where it needed to go, and the accuracy of his passes was just outstanding, and as good as any QB ever.

[Alphadawg7]

48 minutes ago, Sammy Watkins' Rib said:

Explain to me how five years of stats for each generation is cherry picking.

 

I already said that the single year I pointed out, was not an anomaly for the other four years.

 

with every decade that goes by and really every season, the game becomes that much more of a passing league. Whether it’s inch by inch or leaps and bounds.

 

we shouldn’t be surprised at all, that when you take a 20 year span between seasons that we see massive differences in the average yards and efficiency put up.

 

as others have already mentioned, Allen should be compared to his peers. And by that metric loan, he is outstanding.

 

Josh Allen stats are largely better than Peyton Manning stats in each players first five seasons. And really that should be expected.

 

No disrespect, I already answered this in the post you are responding to.  You compared the 2002 QB stats to the 2022 group of QB stats.

 

For example:  QB A averaged 3000 yards per season over 3 seasons with 2 pro bowls.  Guess that means he played in a different era right because of the stats as if it has nothing to do with the player?  Well QB A is Tyrod Taylor stretch with the Bills.  Not a different era, just a guy who wasn't very good.  

 

You posted stats without context as if the players on the field had nothing to do with the stats, and only the rules did.  

 

The unequivocal facts, and the only thing that are 100% facts and not subjective to variables such as talent, team makeup, coaching, and talent around players are the rule changes.  And the rule changes to boost the passing game began in 1995.  And arguably the most significant rule changes to boost the QB's performance and passing game was the move to make the QB's significantly more protected with the roughing the passer changes in 2001 and 2002, Mannings 3rd and 4th year.  

 

So, once again, the point is that Manning played during an era where the NFL was emphasizing the passing game.  That is factually indisputable.  There of course have been more rule changes, and there will continue to be more rule changes.  But the leagues transformation to push the passing game and scoring started before Manning entered the league and made its biggest strides early in Mannings career towards that.  

 

No disrespect, those are just the facts.  I mean the league will always have some differences even going back 10 years, that will always be true.  But this notion it was a "completely different era" as if the passing game wasn't emphasized across the league by both the rules and teams is just a gross over exaggeration of the differences.  

[Alphadawg7]

5 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea while the league had already started down the road of making the passing game easier it hadn't made much progress in the early 00s - witness the Patriots "holding" quite literally the Greatest Show on Turf in the Superbowl. 

 

The 2004 changes were, essentially, and admission that what they had tried before had not had the desired effect. 

 

I watched that Superbowl back on NFLN a few weeks ago when the replayed it. It bears little resemblence to the way you can play defense today. Witness the penalty called on the Eagles at the end of this year's. 

 

No disrespect Gunner, but Patriots did the same thing to the Rams vs McVay where the beat them 13-3 in the Super Bowl.  That was two potent offenses that combined for 16 points with BB shutting down what was considered the best offense in the league.  

 

The greatest defensive mind in NFL history disrupting a potent offense in the Super Bowl, something he did many times over his career both as a DC and HC, and still does, is not indicative on its own that it was a "different era".  In fact, the Rams had already become one of the most high flying offenses of all time prior to that year and a Super Bowl Champion already.  

Edited July 6, 2023 by Alphadawg7

[GunnerBill]

43 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

No disrespect Gunner, but Patriots did the same thing to the Rams vs McVay where the beat them 13-3 in the Super Bowl.  That was two potent offenses that combined for 16 points with BB shutting down what was considered the best offense in the league.  

 

The greatest defensive mind in NFL history disrupting a potent offense in the Super Bowl, something he did many times over his career both as a DC and HC, and still does, is not indicative on its own that it was a "different era".  In fact, the Rams had already become one of the most high flying offenses of all time prior to that year and a Super Bowl Champion already.  

 

They didn't shut McVay's Rams down by holding. They shut them down with scheme and the bear front in particular.

 

You could not play defense the way they played it against the Greatest Show on Turf now. I had never seen that Superbowl before. It was the last one before I started watching the league. But it was like a different sport. They just held, bumped, held, cut blocked... pretty much ever pass attempt would draw a flag now if you tried to play defense that way. 

[Chicken Boo]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea while the league had already started down the road of making the passing game easier it hadn't made much progress in the early 00s - witness the Patriots "holding" quite literally the Greatest Show on Turf in the Superbowl. 

 

The 2004 changes were, essentially, and admission that what they had tried before had not had the desired effect. 

 

I watched that Superbowl back on NFLN a few weeks ago when the replayed it. It bears little resemblence to the way you can play defense today. 

 

The 2005 AFC Championship.  Patriots DBs mugged Colts WRs off the line all game long, disrupting their timing. 

 

Today, there would have been flags for illegal contact, holding or outright interference if you played like that.    

[Alphadawg7]

26 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They didn't shut McVay's Rams down by holding. They shut them down with scheme and the bear front in particular.

 

You could not play defense the way they played it against the Greatest Show on Turf now. I had never seen that Superbowl before. It was the last one before I started watching the league. But it was like a different sport. They just held, bumped, held, cut blocked... pretty much ever pass attempt would draw a flag now if you tried to play defense that way. 

 

I mean, lets not forget about Spygate and the Rams claiming it was like the Pats knew all their plays.  The NFL as a whole was already a full blown passing league at that point, that Super Bowl wasn't indicative of the entirety of the league and all its games.  There have been plenty of physical Super Bowls since as well.  

 

I don't disagree that they are even more ticky tack with PI calls the last few years compared to back then, but that game had a lot of layers to it and many of the rule changes and enforcement emphasis to support QB's and the passing game had already been implemented.  

 

I have been a die hard NFL junky since the 80's, and the league, rules, how they called rules had long been evolving into passing prior to that Super Bowl.  

[Jauronimo]

38 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

They didn't shut McVay's Rams down by holding. They shut them down with scheme and the bear front in particular.

 

You could not play defense the way they played it against the Greatest Show on Turf now. I had never seen that Superbowl before. It was the last one before I started watching the league. But it was like a different sport. They just held, bumped, held, cut blocked... pretty much ever pass attempt would draw a flag now if you tried to play defense that way. 

Belichick waited to line his defenses up until after the mic in Goff's helmet went silent.  He knew Goff was nothing without McVay reading the defense for him.

[GoBills808]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

His turnovers DID keep the Dolphins game close. His brilliant plays also WERE the main reason we won. The two in that case are not mutually exclusive. 

I mean sure but that's how someone who didn't like Allen would characterize that game

 

As probably the biggest Josh Allen fan I would say his line should have been around 65% for 425 and 4TDs except Beasley threw one into a DB and Smoke ran the wrong route

 

Dawkins and Shakir kept the game close not Allen

[GunnerBill]

51 minutes ago, Alphadawg7 said:

 

I mean, lets not forget about Spygate and the Rams claiming it was like the Pats knew all their plays.  The NFL as a whole was already a full blown passing league at that point, that Super Bowl wasn't indicative of the entirety of the league and all its games.  There have been plenty of physical Super Bowls since as well.  

 

I don't disagree that they are even more ticky tack with PI calls the last few years compared to back then, but that game had a lot of layers to it and many of the rule changes and enforcement emphasis to support QB's and the passing game had already been implemented.  

 

I have been a die hard NFL junky since the 80's, and the league, rules, how they called rules had long been evolving into passing prior to that Super Bowl.  

 

It isn't about offense vs defense or passing vs running or physical vs finesse. It is about the way the game is called and what you can do as a result. There is no doubt in my mind it was easier to move the ball through the air in 2010 than in 2001 and it is easier in 2023 than it was in 2010. And that is the period I feel qualified to speak on. That is because the way the rules have tightened and are now applied just makes it easier.

[LeGOATski]

On 7/5/2023 at 9:29 AM, Lost said:

 

Brett Favre married his high school sweetheart and has been with her for like 37 years.   The reporter incident later in life aside, I wouldn't call him a womaniser.  

Yeah, let's just leave that one incident aside....lol. The rest I'm sure is spotless...

[Sammy Watkins' Rib]

6 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

 

 

Dawkins and Shakir kept the game close not Allen

Knox also dropped a TD costing the team 4 points. 

[CincyBillsFan]

18 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

I mean sure but that's how someone who didn't like Allen would characterize that game

 

As probably the biggest Josh Allen fan I would say his line should have been around 65% for 425 and 4TDs except Beasley threw one into a DB and Smoke ran the wrong route

 

Dawkins and Shakir kept the game close not Allen

The Shakir drop was huge.  Not only was it a missed chance to gain 55 yards late in the 1st half on a perfectly thrown ball but it happened at a moment where the Bills were leading 17 - 6 and still dominating.  Had he caught that pass, which a high school player would be expected to catch, the Bills likely use up most of the half and score a TD or at worst a FG.  By dropping that pass the Bills ended up punting, there was a great return and the Dolphins kicked a FG to pull within one score.

 

 

 

 

[T master]

I always thought the better comparison as far as his game goes would be that of Arron Rogers their games are very similar especially when Rogers first started playing . Their arm strength is about the same they both have cannons and the younger Rogers was almost as mobile as Josh .

 

But to have those numbers that are comparable to Peyton is pretty impressive to say the least !! And Josh may be even closer if some of his WR wouldn't have dropped some of the passes that they did . Just saying ...

[BigDingus]

On 7/6/2023 at 4:43 AM, GunnerBill said:

 

Yea while the league had already started down the road of making the passing game easier it hadn't made much progress in the early 00s - witness the Patriots "holding" quite literally the Greatest Show on Turf in the Superbowl. 

 

The 2004 changes were, essentially, and admission that what they had tried before had not had the desired effect. 

 

I watched that Superbowl back on NFLN a few weeks ago when the replayed it. It bears little resemblence to the way you can play defense today. Witness the penalty called on the Eagles at the end of this year's. 

 

Exactly!

 

And remember, it wasn't long ago that teams wouldn't draft QB's who didn't play under center in college. QB's who played most of their snaps from shotgun & in spread offenses were seen as "system QB's" and treated like lepers. 

 

Defenses were more limited, offensive philosophies changed, and numbers went through the roof.

 

As a Texas Tech alumni, our QB's were all viewed as "system" QB's... Everyone from Kliff Kingsbury to Graham Harrell weren't taken seriously. Then the league evolved, and spread offenses became widely adopted in the NFL. Texas Tech QB's suddenly weren't a pariah, and 3 QB's who started their careers at Tech went on to be drafted (Baker Mayfield, Davis Webb, Patrick Mahomes).

 

I'm not saying all this to discredit Josh, but all you have to do is look at QB passing numbers in Peyton's first 5 years vs those in Josh's first 5 years to see there's a MASSIVE difference in how the game is played.

[JerseyBills]

On 7/3/2023 at 1:41 PM, Chicken Boo said:

 

It was a different era.  Peyton's receivers were also allowed to get mugged on their routes and killed after the catch.

 

The linebackers of that time are better than the linebackers today.  

Raw Lewis and Urlacher come to mind. So for argument sake let's call them the gold standard. 

Josh and all the elite QBs and OCs would kill them in passing downs. Far more athletic LBs nowadays.  

 

If we were a running team I'd agree but I just don't see it

[GoBills808]

49 minutes ago, JerseyBills said:

Raw Lewis and Urlacher come to mind. So for argument sake let's call them the gold standard. 

Josh and all the elite QBs and OCs would kill them in passing downs. Far more athletic LBs nowadays.  

 

If we were a running team I'd agree but I just don't see it

Urlacher was very good defending the pass

 

played safety in college

[Chaos]

3 hours ago, BigDingus said:

I'm not saying all this to discredit Josh, but all you have to do is look at QB passing numbers in Peyton's first 5 years vs those in Josh's first 5 years to see there's a MASSIVE difference in how the game is played.

Or we can consider the more obvious answer. Allen is as good or better than Manning. 

[Chicken Boo]

3 hours ago, JerseyBills said:

Raw Lewis and Urlacher come to mind. So for argument sake let's call them the gold standard. 

Josh and all the elite QBs and OCs would kill them in passing downs. Far more athletic LBs nowadays.  

 

If we were a running team I'd agree but I just don't see it

 

The disrespect...

 

Where on God's green Earth did you get the impression that Ray Lewis was poor in coverage?  He is 6th all time in interceptions by a LB, arguably the greatest linebacker in history and I'd argue, one of the highest football IQs in league history.  

 

He also ran the 40 in 4.58.  Urlacher ran a 4.57.  Both are first ballot Hall of Famers.  

 

Ray was the general of the defense, but it wasn't comprised of just him.  At different times, Peter Boulware, Jamie Sharper, Adalius Thomas, Suggs, Ed Reed, Chris Mccallister, the d-line...no QB is killing them at any time.  Part of the reason he has 2 Super Bowl rings and was the leader of the greatest defense, statistically, in history.  

 

 

 

 

Edited July 7, 2023 by Chicken Boo

[Mikie2times]

On 7/6/2023 at 1:28 PM, GoBills808 said:

I mean sure but that's how someone who didn't like Allen would characterize that game

 

As probably the biggest Josh Allen fan I would say his line should have been around 65% for 425 and 4TDs except Beasley threw one into a DB and Smoke ran the wrong route

 

Dawkins and Shakir kept the game close not Allen

You act as if chucking the ball 50 yards each play is some sort of recipe for success? It's why our offense sucked for the back 8 (suck as in playing like a video game, 3 point shots or nothing (great analogy by another poster), more turnovers + more sacks from slower developing plays. No rhythm) You're right, only Allen could have won us the game WE PLAYED. Maybe you should ask yourself if it makes sense to be playing a high risk / reward offense against the Skyler Dorsal Fins. We had the game won when we walked out, until we almost handed it over losing our lead in the 2nd half.

 

The medicine that is leave it to Josh to do some amazingly crazy things isn't the cure, it's the problem. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

You act as if chucking the ball 50 yards each play is some sort of recipe for success? It's why our offense sucked for the back 8 (suck as in playing like a video game, 3 point shots or nothing (great analogy by another poster), more turnovers + more sacks from slower developing plays. No rhythm) You're right, only Allen could have won us the game WE PLAYED. Maybe you should ask yourself if it makes sense to be playing a high risk / reward offense against the Skyler Dorsal Fins. We had the game won when we walked out, until we almost handed it over losing our lead in the 2nd half.

 

The medicine that is leave it to Josh to do some amazingly crazy things isn't the cure, it's the problem. 

NFL offenses w highest net YPA 2022

 

Chiefs

Dolphins

Eagles

Niners

Lions

Bills

 

These are all very good offenses, best in the league for the most part. Offenses w lowest net YPA 2022 are all the bad ones:

 

Bears

Cards

Colts

Texans

Rams

 

Yes, throwing the ball downfield is a recipe for success.

[Mikie2times]

7 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

NFL offenses w highest net YPA 2022

 

Chiefs

Dolphins

Eagles

Niners

Lions

Bills

 

These are all very good offenses, best in the league for the most part. Offenses w lowest net YPA 2022 are all the bad ones:

 

Bears

Cards

Colts

Texans

Rams

 

Yes, throwing the ball downfield is a recipe for success.

Don't hurt yourself with some of these advanced stats, you might have to reconcile things like the second worst EPA of the season vs the Dolphins or the worse completion % out of any of the teams you listed. Bottom 20 actually. You know, what we sustain drives with..... best keep all this data to the regular season as well. We wouldn't want to deep dive into how the chuck and duck does in the playoffs. That is unless you want to stick with 2021, which you have before. She will end up being like your first girlfriend when you speak of her at the rate we are going. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, Mikie2times said:

Don't hurt yourself with some of these advanced stats, you might have to reconcile things like the second worst EPA of the season vs the Dolphins or the worse completion % out of any of the teams you listed. Bottom 20 actually. You know, what we sustain drives with..... best keep all this data to the regular season as well. We wouldn't want to deep dive into how the chuck and duck does in the playoffs. That is unless you want to stick with 2021, which you have before. She will end up being like your first girlfriend when you speak of her at the rate we are going. 

it's going to be ok

 

deep breaths

[BigAl2526]

Hall of Fame careers for QBs depend a lot on stats, but there are some other factors that go into the mix.  On big one is Super Bowl appearances and wins.  Peyton Manning has them.  To this point, Josh Allen doesn't.  He might get into the Hall of Fame without that jewel in his crown but it would be much more of a sure thing if he had some by the end of his career.