SCOTUS strikes down Biden’s student loan forgiveness plan

[Big Blitz]

 

 

 

Yep should have been 9-0

 

 

 

Edited June 30, 2023 by Big Blitz

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

.

[T&C]

Biden says it was "a terrible decision"... when he himself is the King of terrible decisions, he Owns That throne. lol

[BillStime]

I can't wait to laugh at all my conservative friends who are still paying off their student loans and was looking forward to the relief. 

 

I do feel bad, however, for my younger siblings who looked forward to the relief, too. 

 

And last, there is no doubt that some of you MAGA nutters  too, along with your college age kids, were discreetly looking forward to the relief. 

 

But you know what they say - you reap what you sow.

 

 

PS: As you cheer today, none of these rulings will do the cult any favors in 2024. You can take that to the bank.

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

20 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

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read the dissents. its all emotion and stories. vs actual legal references and precedence 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

Narrow decision, based on the wording of the congressional authority allowing the Executive to "modify" (not including "cancel") student loan debt/repayment.

 

Hey, I'll admit it. I'm a law geek. This was an interesting term with respect to separation of powers. I thought the immigration case would go the other way (the Court rejected the attempt of Texas to force Biden to arrest/deport all illegal entrants). The Court was unwilling to go so far as to let States dictate the exercise of federal authorities.

 

But here, they narrowly construed a congressional authorization allowing the President to do something that would implicate spending.

 

I'm gonna say that on these two cases they got it right. You'll hear about how the Court is conservative and enacting a conservative agenda. Yes and no. With respect to separation of powers, it's pretty much down the middle; people can argue about how much the other cases (abortion rights, affirmative action) are about a conservative agenda instead of the law.

[ChiGoose]

So is the new rule that standing doesn’t matter and is just whatever is needed to achieve the desired outcome?
 

Used to be you needed a case or controversy brought by someone who had been harmed and there was relief available through legal action. 

 

Now we have someone who wants to start a business but is so concerned about a hypothetical scenario that they make a fake invoice to pretend that they had been asked to do something. That’s apparently standing now?

 

Or a company that decides not to sue but someone else sues on behalf of the company. That’s standing now too?

 

I wonder, if I pretend that my neighbor has been asked to do something they don’t want to do, can I sue on their behalf without them knowing and get to SCOTUS? 

[The Frankish Reich]

Just now, ChiGoose said:

So is the new rule that standing doesn’t matter and is just whatever is needed to achieve the desired outcome?
 

Used to be you needed a case or controversy brought by someone who had been harmed and there was relief available through legal action. 

 

Now we have someone who wants to start a business but is so concerned about a hypothetical scenario that they make a fake invoice to pretend that they had been asked to do something. That’s apparently standing now?

 

Or a company that decides not to sue but someone else sues on behalf of the company. That’s standing now too?

 

I wonder, if I pretend that my neighbor has been asked to do something they don’t want to do, can I sue on their behalf without them knowing and get to SCOTUS? 

You are correct. A lot of legal scholars argue that the whole concept of "standing" is now just a gate-keeping function, employed by the Court when it wants to shoot down a plaintiff for whatever reason, ignored by the Court when it wants to find in favor of a plaintiff. There's some of that here.

But the results are, to me, pretty sensible, in the immigration and student loan cases at least. Yes, results-oriented, but sensible.

[Big Blitz]

 

 

Should have went to Wisconsin.  
 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

50 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Yep should have been 9-0

 

 

 

Just a quick comment about relying on second-hand Twitter hot takes from people who aren't lawyers, or certainly haven't had time to read the opinions even if they are -- see that there's a contradiction here in these 2 posts? Some guy named Clay Travis says Biden's student loan forgiveness plan was "unconstitutional." That was not what the Supreme Court decided! "AGHamilton29" says the more accurate "did not have the authority." Under the Supreme Court's decision, if Congress had said "in the event of a declared national emergency, the President may modify or cancel existing student loan debt," presumably the case would've gone the other way.

"Unconstitutional" is thrown around too liberally (including by conservatives, haha). Some things are not authorized by statute without being against the constitution.

EDIT: and I just heard some liberal commenter say "would not bake them a wedding cake because they are gay." NO! If the gay couple had said they want a generic cake, the decision presumably would have been different. And well it should be. That's because a generic cake is not a work of art (hence "speech" protected by the 1st Amendment).

Edited June 30, 2023 by The Frankish Reich

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

22 minutes ago, BillStime said:

I can't wait to laugh at all my conservative friends who are still paying off their student loans and was looking forward to the relief. 

 

I do feel bad, however, for my younger siblings who looked forward to the relief, too. 

 

And last, there is no doubt that some of you MAGA nutters  too, along with your college age kids, were discreetly looking forward to the relief. 

 

But you know what they say - you reap what you sow.

 

 

PS: As you cheer today, none of these rulings will do the cult any favors in 2024. You can take that to the bank.

 

 

There are options, BillSy.  Help your younger siblings.  Provide sound guidance on how debt works, the extraordinary benefits offered by community college, the benefits of staying local, virtual learning etc.  Research in-state options relative to income (NY Excelsior program).  Look into programs where they get free education for public service (volunteer firefighters get an exceptional benefits if they attend community college). If you can afford to do it, help them pay for college. Gift them money.  Pay for books. 
 

We were able to fund our children’s college debt with some strategic planning, heartfelt conversations on what we would expect in return for our commitment, good fortune and good children.   
 

My son’s wife has college debt (and she’s a young lady who powered through sone very tough breaks in life to complete her education), and they would have qualified for relief under the Biden plan though financially they are doing quite well. My advice was pretty simple—if you qualify for forgiveness when all is said and done, take it.  If not, pay the debt off as soon as possible. 
 

 

[boyst]

Student debt is complicated. It's frustrating to grasp. My wife had to take a student loan out and the terms changed while enrolled on an income based repayment that was forgiven after 15 years. At 15 years it's forgiven but declared an income on taxes.

 

So, in order for her to get her dvm she had no choice other than to drop out halfway through.

 

I don't blame her. I blame the system that doesn't teach the kids the downfalls and problems of the loan sharking of the student loan system.

 

If she was a dentist or about any other type of doctor she would have been able to pay it back much sooner. Or if she took the acceptance to Cornell's radiology program she'd have been fine. Vet radiologists make bank.

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

Vet radiologists make bank

Who knew?

But I'm always concerned about jobs like radiology that can be outsourced. I just had a CT scan. The results came back really fast. I asked: the doc told me they simply send the electronic image to a remote radiologist, presumably working at home.

So ... other than licensing requirements, why not send it to some radiologist in India? Or better still, just have an AI program interpret the results?

(I say this because I think of such things as my kids embark on career paths ...)

[boyst]

Just now, The Frankish Reich said:

Who knew?

But I'm always concerned about jobs like radiology that can be outsourced. I just had a CT scan. The results came back really fast. I asked: the doc told me they simply send the electronic image to a remote radiologist, presumably working at home.

So ... other than licensing requirements, why not send it to some radiologist in India? Or better still, just have an AI program interpret the results?

(I say this because I think of such things as my kids embark on career paths ...)

You can if they're registered in the state they live.  A lot of laws are changing and being bent for progress. 

 

That progress is chewy.com for example. You can get a script from your vet, upload it there and get major savings on medical prescriptions because they buy in massive bulk units. Chewy.com has been lobbying to declassify some medications to not needing scripts and also providing online assessments.

 

This has happened in human medical when you go to see a moron NP, RN or other nurse who took 2 years of mouth breathing class to determine you have checked a few boxes for a medical ailment. Hospitals love this because they can pay them less, people love this because they pay less and have more availability, and no one realizes the quality of healthcare is pure dog *****.

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Who knew?

But I'm always concerned about jobs like radiology that can be outsourced. I just had a CT scan. The results came back really fast. I asked: the doc told me they simply send the electronic image to a remote radiologist, presumably working at home.

So ... other than licensing requirements, why not send it to some radiologist in India? Or better still, just have an AI program interpret the results?

(I say this because I think of such things as my kids embark on career paths ...)

No idea why AI hasn’t already infiltrated medicine to a greater extent. Seems like a very straightforward application. Still convinced the entire medical industry has the wrong business structure. 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, boyst said:

This has happened in human medical when you go to see a moron NP, RN or other nurse who took 2 years of mouth breathing class to determine you have checked a few boxes for a medical ailment.

I've just adapted to the new reality. Something's wrong, it's apparently not life threatening, the primary care provider basically goes with the most things resolve on their own in a couple weeks. If not, come back. And if it's not resolved, it's a referral to a specialist. The gatekeeper function.

I always laugh when I see these medical commenters suggesting that we "have a talk with your doctor" about something or other. Yeah, in 10 minutes I'll have a chat about all the probably ordinary crap that a guy my age has ...

[BillStime]

22 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

There are options, BillSy.  Help your younger siblings.  Provide sound guidance on how debt works, the extraordinary benefits offered by community college, the benefits of staying local, virtual learning etc.  Research in-state options relative to income (NY Excelsior program).  Look into programs where they get free education for public service (volunteer firefighters get an exceptional benefits if they attend community college). If you can afford to do it, help them pay for college. Gift them money.  Pay for books. 
 

We were able to fund our children’s college debt with some strategic planning, heartfelt conversations on what we would expect in return for our commitment, good fortune and good children.   
 

My son’s wife has college debt (and she’s a young lady who powered through sone very tough breaks in life to complete her education), and they would have qualified for relief under the Biden plan though financially they are doing quite well. My advice was pretty simple—if you qualify for forgiveness when all is said and done, take it.  If not, pay the debt off as soon as possible. 
 

 

 

Thanks for the advice, Leo.  Fortunately, my parents will follow through and pay off their loans now that the decision is final.

Also, fortunately, after 60 straight years of voting Republican, my conservative parents will no longer vote for the GOP because of their hyper focus on woke, guns, and anti-everything. They are tired of the division, mass shootings, outright mean spirted hate, and bullshiit.

 

The party no longer represents THEM.

 

Congrats, Trump voters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Up NEXT:

 

Interracial Marriage 

Gay Marriage

Contraception

 

So much winning.

 

[The Frankish Reich]

10 minutes ago, BillStime said:

Up NEXT:

 

Interracial Marriage 

Gay Marriage

Contraception

This is why people should be careful of what they wish for. This is why we should wish for a Supreme Court that doesn't just see the "liberal" or "conservative" side of the moment, but thinks about the implications of its decisions when the tables are turned.

 

Example: Dobbs (abortion). Roe rested on the same amorphous "right to privacy" that Griswold ("right to contraception") rested on. Now, no state seems interested in banning contraception, so presumably that won't happen. But logically, if one (Roe) was incorrectly decided, the other one (Griswold) was too.

 

Example: many progressives are upset about the student loan forgiveness decision. The Court found that Congress needs to be explicit about granting the President some authority that is really Congress's authority - the spending power here. But the shoe can be on the other foot: Trump used Title 42 to summarily deport thousands of people based on the same public health emergency. And Biden continued to do it. I think that was also an abuse of the limited authority Congress gave the President. If you read these delegations of authority too expansively, you wind up with Presidents declaring national emergencies ("climate emergency," anyone? or can I interest you in "border security and drug trafficking emergency" if you're on the other side?) and then taking all kinds of executive actions in response. A bad and un-American thing in general.

Edited June 30, 2023 by The Frankish Reich

[SCBills]

6 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Thanks for the advice, Leo.  Fortunately, my parents will follow through and pay off their loans now that the decision is final.

Also, fortunately, after 60 straight years of voting Republican, my conservative parents will no longer vote for the GOP because of their hyper focus on woke, guns, and anti-everything. They are tired of the division, mass shootings, outright mean spirted hate, and bullshiit.

 

The party no longer represents THEM.

 

Congrats, Trump voters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Up NEXT:

 

Interracial Marriage 

Gay Marriage

Contraception

 

So much winning.

 

So your parents are Bush Republicans?

 

Makes sense .. those types are the ones who now makeup half of MSNBC’s current audience. 
 

I prefer the GOP that focuses on parents and conservatives.  
 

Admittedly, they’re losing moderate single women and the neocons but are gaining Hispanics, Muslims and Black Men. 
 

We’ll see how it turns out in the long run. 

[BillStime]

2 minutes ago, SCBills said:

So your parents are Bush Republicans?

 

Makes sense .. those types are the ones who now makeup half of MSNBC’s current audience. 
 

I prefer the GOP that focuses on parents and conservatives.  
 

Admittedly, they’re losing moderate single women and the neocons but are gaining Hispanics, Muslims and Black Men. 
 

We’ll see how it turns out in the long run. 

 

I wish my parents turned 18 in 1989. Granted, I wouldn't have been born yet but they wouldn't be in their late 70s like they are today.  I cherish every day they are here.

 

 

 

[The Frankish Reich]

6 minutes ago, SCBills said:

So your parents are Bush Republicans?

You mean, actual Republicans?

[BillsFanNC]

🎯 

 

And FBI/DOJ did absolutely nothing as the left illegally 'protested' outside conservative justices homes.

 

Why do you think that is?

 

 

[SCBills]

12 minutes ago, The Frankish Reich said:

You mean, actual Republicans?

Let me guess, you’re real excited about Will Hurd for President?

 

Hes going to bow out early, take a job at CNN or MSNBC as a “Republican Contributor” and proceed to agree with Democrats on everything.  

[BillsFanNC]

 

[The Frankish Reich]

5 minutes ago, SCBills said:

Let me guess, you’re real excited about Will Hurd for President?

 

Hes going to bow out early, take a job at CNN or MSNBC as a “Republican Contributor” and proceed to agree with Democrats on everything.  

He's a bit young, but yes, he seems bright, seems sane, and seems to be an actual Republican.

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

22 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

Thanks for the advice, Leo.  Fortunately, my parents will follow through and pay off their loans now that the decision is final.

Also, fortunately, after 60 straight years of voting Republican, my conservative parents will no longer vote for the GOP because of their hyper focus on woke, guns, and anti-everything. They are tired of the division, mass shootings, outright mean spirted hate, and bullshiit.

 

The party no longer represents THEM.

 

Congrats, Trump voters.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Up NEXT:

 

Interracial Marriage 

Gay Marriage

Contraception

 

So much winning.

 

Thank you for your measured response.  I get the frustration from your parents perspective, as our friend Muppy says rarely is anyone 100% conservative or 100% liberal. 
 

We’ve come this far, so I wonder if we can see it through. 
 

The math suggests your parents are pushing 80 years old.  It seems they have the money to help your siblings, what was their thinking before this was finalized today?  While the chatter on student loan forgiveness has been around for a number of years (as has the dialogue on the exponentially increasing cost of education), the actual Biden plan is really still in its infancy.    Assuming (now, based on the 60 year voting record) your younger siblings are older, why didn’t they just pay off the loan to begin with? 
 

As for being careful what you wish for, we need not capitulate out of fear of the next big thing that liberal or conservative Americans might want.  
 

 

 

 

[BillStime]

4 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

 It seems they have the money to help your siblings, what was their thinking before this was finalized today?

 

My parents' motto: you a take a loan you pay it back. Then grandchildren happened and well, that changed everything.

 

 

[BillsFanNC]

 

[BillStime]

43 minutes ago, BillsFanNC said:

And FBI/DOJ did absolutely nothing as the left illegally 'protested' outside conservative justices homes.

 

 

This happened yesterday. Do you condemn Conald for sharing Obama's DC address?  Why do you or your owners have NO foresight?

 

 

[Tommy Callahan]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

Also, fortunately, after 60 straight years of voting Republican, my conservative parents will no longer vote for the GOP because of their hyper focus on woke, guns, and anti-everything. They are tired of the division, mass shootings, outright mean spirted hate, and bullshiit.

That same narrative is kind of how Obama pulled so many.  and why trump then pulled so many.  The GOP and DNC are crap (not representative) for the majority of the populus. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

[All_Pro_Bills]

1 hour ago, The Frankish Reich said:

You mean, actual Republicans?

The neocon types that have a stiffy for the DC war machine but are totally oblivious that 90% of the world outside of Western Europe has had enough of this military intervention approach to addressing every problem?  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

9 minutes ago, BillStime said:

 

My parents' motto: you a take a loan you pay it back. Then grandchildren happened and well, that changed everything.

 

 

This goes in the “people are complicated basket” imo.  If you hang in on the “your debt your responsibility” mantra, I can understand wanting the Biden loan program going through because it benefits those you love.  I don’t understand that as some last straw issue  that pushes folks to the liberal left.  
 

No judgement intended, I just don’t get that one. 
 

Thanks, and sounds like you have great parents. 

[boyst]

41 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

That same narrative is kind of how Obama pulled so many.  and why trump then pulled so many.  The GOP and DNC are crap (not representative) for the majority of the populus. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Stop.quoting trolls please 

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, BillStime said:

 

I wish my parents turned 18 in 1989. Granted, I wouldn't have been born yet but they wouldn't be in their late 70s like they are today.  I cherish every day they are here.

 

 

 

We feel the same way!

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I keed, I keed. 

[BillStime]

5 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

I don’t understand that as some last straw issue  that pushes folks to the liberal left.  

 

What happened at Tops was the last straw.... loan forgiveness was the cherry on top.

 

[The Frankish Reich]

1 minute ago, B-Man said:

 

As we now know thanks to Justice Sonia Sotomayor, the dissents from liberal Supreme Court justices that defend President Biden's attempt to skirt Congress and "forgive" student loan debt can be filed under "A" for "alternate reality." 

 

Up next is Justice Elana Kagan, who presented a hypothetical to explain why people who borrowed money in the form of student loans shouldn't have to be burdened by actually having to pay it back.

 

This one comes with a beverage warning: 

 

 

and it's real

 

 

So if I understand this correctly, you can get out of your student loan bills if you set off a dirty bomb in Chicago.

 

 

https://twitchy.com/dougp/2023/06/30/scotus-justice-kegans-dissent-contains-a-hypothetical-that-you-have-to-see-to-believe-n2384997

I haven't read the whole Sotomayor dissent.

But here's something to be aware of: this is how appeals court arguments go! Justice Breyer was famous for asking long hypotheticals, sometimes with fact patterns this bizarre.

 

What they're trying to do is to get the other side to concede that under some circumstances their view (that complete loan forgiveness is authorized) may be acceptable. That shoots down the argument that under the language Congress used, loan forgiveness is never authorized. If the other side (or another Justice) says, yeah, well, we're not talking about that, then you've made your point.

 

[Granted, this is a silly hypothetical. But still, appellate lawyers are used to this kind of thing]

[Doc]

Good.  Why should I pay for them?  If you want money back, get it back from those who got the money: the colleges. 

[SCBills]

 

[BillStime]

5 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

PPP loans

 

 

[B-Man]