A Question That Has Haunted Me - What If 2017 Draft Was Different By That Trade Back ?

[Rock-A-Bye Beasley]

I’m more than thrilled we have Josh. But Until he figured out the deep ball I thought passing on Mahomes was an epic blunder. It still is technically on paper but I wouldn’t swap as crazy as that sounds to some outside of bills fans 
 

im more interested in this alternate universe where Mahomes is sitting behind Tyrod in 2018.

 

Instead of peterman coming in it’s Mahomes?

 

Instead of Tyrod against the Jags scoring 3 points it’s Mahomes?

 

Do they get to the Super Bowl that year considering how close the Jags got?
 

 

Edited April 18, 2023 by Rock-A-Bye Beasley

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, Lieutenant Aldo Raine said:

Should dump him while his value is high!!!  Go back to QB purgatory where the few of you thrive on misery!

The team is making me perfectly miserable in its current playoff failures purgatory! And you don’t amputate an arm because of a few scratches on the hand.

[chongli]

56 minutes ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

I’m more than thrilled we have Josh. But Until he figured out the deep ball I thought passing on Mahomes was an epic blunder. It still is technically on paper but I wouldn’t swap as crazy as that sounds to some outside of bills fans 
 

im more interested in this alternate universe where Mahomes is sitting behind Tyrod in 2018.

 

Instead of peterman coming in it’s Mahomes?

 

Instead of Tyrod against the Jags scoring 3 points it’s Mahomes?

 

Do they get to the Super Bowl that year considering how close the Jags got?
 

 

 

Also reminds me of 1999. The Bills lost to the Titans in the Music City Miracle. Tennessee went on to beat Indy then Jax then to the SB. The Bills should have never lost that game. Had they won, could they have beaten Indy, whom they just beat a week earlier, and then Jax, and on to the SB?! We'll never know.

 

[BTW, that was the year Seattle won their division at 9-7, and Dallas got in as a WC at 8-8. Washington, who won their division at 10-6 and the aforementioned Seattle at 9-7 both got byes as division winners, but Buffalo at 11-5 didn't since they were a WC.].

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

You act like the "13 seconds" game against KC was a long time ago. It was one season ago. 

 

The idea that Allen "single handedly brought the Dolphins back into the game" is ludicrous. The Bills as a team rushed out to a big lead and then got sloppy, including Allen, letting the Dolphins back into the game.  To say Allen would have been the Dolphins "mvp" if they had won the game is laughable.  Sure Allen had 3 TO's but he also had 352 yards passing, 3 passing TD's had another passing TD dropped and a perfectly thrown 55 yard completion dropped. 

 

Was Jim Kelly an elite QB?  I think the answer is obviously yes but in an AFC championship game at Rich Stadium he and the Bills O were held to no TD's & 3 points. And is Mahomes elite? Because in the SB loss to TB he was held to no TD's and 3 FG's.  I could go on but you get it.

 

Are you really a Bills fan?  Sure criticizing Allen doesn't preclude someone from being a Bills fan but the degree to which you attack Allen is over the top and there's no way a real fan throws the stuff out that you do.

 

And for the record what you're posting is not holding Allen accountable.  It's nitpicking the guy to death.  And while you do this you  ignore the reality that without him at QB the Bills are not even a 500 team let alone a yearly division winner and playoff team.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

His turnovers led to Mia points and was the catalyst for them coming back. How would you characterize it? 🤷

 

You’re comparing Allen’s performance in the Cincy game to Mahomes 2nd SB game where he lost most of his Oline and playing through turf toe? Again 2nd SB game. Where he already won the first. And now have added a 3rd SB appearance and 2nd ring. I think most would say he’d get a pass.

 

How are my critiques of Allen nitpicking and over the top? I’ve said he panicks in certain situations that have led to mistakes and turnovers. I’ve said he needed to play with more poise in big moments and not get flustered. I’ve said he doesn’t see the whole field sometimes and not take what defenses give him. All these elite qb’s have tremendous physical gifts and abilities. What separates them is mostly between the ears. Maybe if you remove those homer glasses you’d see these are fair assessments. 

 

And there you go again. Accusing people of not being real fans because they have the audacity to question the qb. He has done so much. We should be grateful because without him we’d win 8 games at most. Yada yada. 

 

Sometimes I do wish I’m not a real fan. It would erased at minimum four very painful experiences from the 90s. 😂

[colin]

13 hours ago, 90sBills said:

I think we have very different definitions of working hard. 😂 

 

Bills overall receiving corp was better than Chiefs this past season. It’s not like Bills are devoid of talent. Davis would be WR1 in KC right now. 

You did the unthinkable for most on this board. Implying, hinting, thinking (as fleeting as it may be) that Mahomes might have done better for the Bills if he was drafted by the Bills. Triggered topic around here for sure. 😅

 

ok, so what was your prior account, air seven, one of the other trolls?

 

the bills wr class was so great we brought in brown and bease off the couch, now i know you have a crack habit!

 

you also just context switching here, like TE and RB and OL (representing the majority of the players on the field on nearly all offensive snaps) don't count.

 

i'll stop feeding this troll, lol.

[T master]

9 hours ago, JohnNord said:

Like you said, you can do this with so many players.  To add fuel to the fire I remember reading an article from Tyler Dunne where he said Terry loved Mahomes 🤣

The bigger question is, should Terry have fired Whaley along with Rex?  Because the whole situation in the winter of 2017 was not ideal in anyway for the Bills.  

 

The entire Whaley/Russ Brandon/Scott Berchtold regime was filled with leaks to the media.   McDermott wisely didn’t trust any of the incumbents and he was given the autonomy from Terry to make any change after a complete evaluation.

 

I get the impressions that Terry was advised not to fire the GM until after the draft, as there’s a thought that you don’t want your scouts/GM sharing.  It’s also hard to hire a new scouting staff and GM in January and then do all the personnel/scouting stuff but it has been done before.  
 

From McDermott’s perspective he 100% made the right call.  You sometimes only get one shot at a franchise QB.  Rather than taking a gamble on intel from the lame duck, untrustworthy GM, he stuck to what he knew - defensive backs.   He found an All-Pro and also received a #1 pick to help draft his franchise QB so I’d say it worked out.  
 

It does make you wonder if Beane gets hired along with McDermott in 2017, if they take the big swing to draft Mahomes or Watson and start “the process” a year earlier.  

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I like others never liked the fact that Whaley moved up so far to grab Watkins but i think one big downfall of his was catering to much to the coach that was in place rather than tending to the team & the future direction of it which Beane seems to be more in tune with .

 

Rex was another huge part of Whaley's demise with the Bills i think he had made some good choices in the draft's he was in & proved he was a wheeler dealer & could move around in the draft . I could be way off & some here will tell me so with their puke emogies but i think there have been a lot worse GM's than Whaley .

 

Him with the guidance of others around him made him i feel look worse than what he was but that's just me i guess & McD was right to get rid of him & bring his guy in because these 2 are locked in given their vision of where this team is heading & what they want to do as far as players & such !!

 

GO BILLS !!! 

[machine gun kelly]

18 hours ago, T master said:

 

Dam ya'll are pretty harsh ! I started the post with I'm ecstatic that we have Josh but i guess y'all either forgot to read that part or something

 

It was just one of those I WONDER type of posts & y'all act like the entire post was like i was slamming Josh saying he was a POS type of QB or something like he's no better than Peterman was .

 

Some people got it one said that if Josh was with the staff that the chiefs have they'd be even better than they are now especially with Andy Reid leading the way then there are those that think i am cusifying Josh 

 

I think y'all are a bit sensitive or something dam ...

It’s not sensitive, it’s that I don’t live my life looking backwards.  Make a decision and stick with it.  We have Josh and Tre as a result of that trade one of the best QB’s on the planet and one of the best CB’s in the league especially this year with a full off season to rehab and get back to his normal self.

[Madbillsfan]

On 4/15/2023 at 9:09 PM, NoSaint said:

I’m just surprised no one else wondered about drafting mahomes before 

They have. We all have at some point or another. Sometimes people commit to someone or something and will lie to protect their fragility. 

[T master]

9 minutes ago, machine gun kelly said:

It’s not sensitive, it’s that I don’t live my life looking backwards.  Make a decision and stick with it.  We have Josh and Tre as a result of that trade one of the best QB’s on the planet and one of the best CB’s in the league especially this year with a full off season to rehab and get back to his normal self.

 

Please do me a favor go back to the original post & re read the very first paragraph every thing after that point is hypothetical not me wishing for that or regretting the moves made by McD & Beane !! 

 

There have been many many posts such as this people doing a redraft scenario in fantasy - it was all meant in creating conversation which it has done it's just that some are taking it as me thinking the Bills made the wrong move which is not in any way what i was implying .

 

As i said in the opening sentences in general terms Josh is a beast & i'm very glad to have him on this team & he is the epitome of what a Bills player should be !

 

I am not living my life looking backwards, I like the decision McD & Beane made & will stick with it and agree that we have 2 very good players possibly HOF players and am waiting for & will be cheering the day Josh & company kicks the Chiefs ass in the play offs to go to the SB . GO BILLS !! 

 

 

[JohnNord]

1 hour ago, T master said:

 

I like others never liked the fact that Whaley moved up so far to grab Watkins but i think one big downfall of his was catering to much to the coach that was in place rather than tending to the team & the future direction of it which Beane seems to be more in tune with .

 

Rex was another huge part of Whaley's demise with the Bills i think he had made some good choices in the draft's he was in & proved he was a wheeler dealer & could move around in the draft . I could be way off & some here will tell me so with their puke emogies but i think there have been a lot worse GM's than Whaley .

 

Him with the guidance of others around him made him i feel look worse than what he was but that's just me i guess & McD was right to get rid of him & bring his guy in because these 2 are locked in given their vision of where this team is heading & what they want to do as far as players & such !!

 

GO BILLS !!! 

I agree that the situation in Buffalo was dysfunctional, but I also don’t think Whaley was that good as a GM or even that much better than Buddy Nix who I thought was terrible.   
 

His strength was pro player evaluation and he made some very nice under the radar FA signings, but he was very bad at team building, not good with the cap, and probably worse than Beane at drafting.   There seemed to be no long term strategy and he was about taking the big swing for present w/o considering the future implications.  

 

I also don’t think Doug had the wherewithal or knowledge to recognize/fix the dysfunction at OBD.  Say what you will about McDermott but he drained the swap in less than 4 months.   It was a completely different organization when he took over.  

 

IMO Whaley was in over his head as GM and probably should have stayed in scouting/pro personnel where I think he’d be an asset.  It is telling that Whaley has not worked in the NFL since his firing in 2017

[CincyBillsFan]

10 hours ago, 90sBills said:

His turnovers led to Mia points and was the catalyst for them coming back. How would you characterize it? 🤷

 

You’re comparing Allen’s performance in the Cincy game to Mahomes 2nd SB game where he lost most of his Oline and playing through turf toe? Again 2nd SB game. Where he already won the first. And now have added a 3rd SB appearance and 2nd ring. I think most would say he’d get a pass.

 

How are my critiques of Allen nitpicking and over the top? I’ve said he panicks in certain situations that have led to mistakes and turnovers. I’ve said he needed to play with more poise in big moments and not get flustered. I’ve said he doesn’t see the whole field sometimes and not take what defenses give him. All these elite qb’s have tremendous physical gifts and abilities. What separates them is mostly between the ears. Maybe if you remove those homer glasses you’d see these are fair assessments. 

 

And there you go again. Accusing people of not being real fans because they have the audacity to question the qb. He has done so much. We should be grateful because without him we’d win 8 games at most. Yada yada. 

 

Sometimes I do wish I’m not a real fan. It would erased at minimum four very painful experiences from the 90s. 😂

Real Bill's fans, no matter how painful it was on each of those losing SB Sunday's, relish and value the experience that those amazing SB teams brought us.  I suspect that the Bills going to FOUR straight Super Bowls will never be repeated. 

 

And real Bill's fans are very grateful that Allen is our QB.  That doesn't mean we don't think he can't get better, he can. But the default starting point with Allen is gratitude to the football gods that he landed in Buffalo. Because real Bills fans lived through a 2 decade QB purgatory so we know what bad quarterbacking looks like.  Allen isn't just a breadth of fresh air he's a freaking hurricane.

 

Your critiques of Allen are at best silly and at worst mean spirited.  What I don't get is do you actually enjoy messing with another fan base?  It just seems so small minded.

 

 

 

 

 

[NewEra]

On 4/15/2023 at 8:00 PM, Buffalo716 said:

The good crack … free based cocaine 😅🥹

This is still funny

[BigDingus]

On 4/15/2023 at 7:10 PM, T master said:

Okay let me first say that i am ecstatic that we have Josh Allen as our QB he fits exactly what the Bills are in most every way a guy that had to work & is still working to be the best version of himself every year not only for the Bills but the community yet i have often wondered or had this question of what if ?

 

In 2017 the Bills got a really good player in the first round of the draft & i understand why they traded away there pick to the Chiefs to add draft capital to add other picks & even though Tre White has been a really good player taken in the 1st for the Bills just what would the Bills look like if they would have kept that pick instead of trading it & drafted Mahomes ? 🤔

 

Has any on else here ever wondered just what might have been if that would have taken place ? Also i wonder the thoughts of those in charge of that draft about Mahomes did they think he wasn't that good or was there something they heard in a interview that they didn't like ?

 

In 2017 that was the year before Beane came here correct ? Whaley was still the GM at the time or am i thinking wrong, i know we got Josh in 2018 which again i am very glad of he is a beast but this question has alway haunted me in some ways would the Bills now have 2 SB's under their belt if that would have happened ?

 

Or in part is the reason why Mahomes is so good is because of the leadership of the offensive guru that is Andy Reid ? I know this is a question that would only be answered if we had a crystal ball to see what the change would be like but was wondering if you all have thought this as i have .

 

I know we all have had thoughts in the past of why certain players were passed over & hind sight is definitely 20/20 to all the arm chair QB's in the Bills mafia but after seeing what Mahomes has been able to do in the relatively short time he has been in the NFL i ask the "What IF" question & wonder if any here have done the same ? 

 

You're not going to get many Bills fans admitting they should've taken Mahomes, as that implies he's superior to the QB we have & love.

 

But if you were in control of a franchise & had it all riding on that pick, you take Mahomes.

 

Mahomes has gone  to the AFCCG every year he's started, been to 3 x SB's & won 2 already, 2 x MVP... And that says nothing of his ridiculous stats & passing records. 

 

Josh has 1 x AFCCG appearance.

 

People will find whatever ways they can to explain away one while excusing the other, but there's a very clear QB Hierarchy right now, and Mahomes sits at the top. 

 

That being said, you don't need to have the best QB in the league to win a SB. It helps, but the cliché "it's a team sport" exists for a reason. 

[FireChans]

On 4/16/2023 at 8:46 PM, chongli said:

I'll take Josh over Mahommes any day. In the end, we'll see who has more SB rings.

I have news from 2023 to bring to you in 2018. And it’s not good news. 

[JerseyBills]

Ya it was Whaley and McD who ran that draft. I'm perfectly fine how it ended up. Even with 2 rings, I wouldn't replace Josh with any QB. His best years are ahead and I'm confident he'll bring us multiple Lombardis

[Taro Nimbus]

What makes you think the Bills would have even drafted Mahomes that year if they had the chance?   Literally no one expected him to become what he is today.  

[90sBills]

5 hours ago, colin said:

 

ok, so what was your prior account, air seven, one of the other trolls?

 

the bills wr class was so great we brought in brown and bease off the couch, now i know you have a crack habit!

 

you also just context switching here, like TE and RB and OL (representing the majority of the players on the field on nearly all offensive snaps) don't count.

 

i'll stop feeding this troll, lol.

What’s so outrageous about believing Davis would do well in KC? Their wr room is filled with castoffs #2-#4 jag’s. Davis’ talent would absolutely shine there.

 

Is this your go to response when someone offers a different pov? Just dismiss it as trolling because their opinions cannot possibly be right as it differs from yours?

[90sBills]

2 hours ago, CincyBillsFan said:

Real Bill's fans, no matter how painful it was on each of those losing SB Sunday's, relish and value the experience that those amazing SB teams brought us.  I suspect that the Bills going to FOUR straight Super Bowls will never be repeated. 

 

And real Bill's fans are very grateful that Allen is our QB.  That doesn't mean we don't think he can't get better, he can. But the default starting point with Allen is gratitude to the football gods that he landed in Buffalo. Because real Bills fans lived through a 2 decade QB purgatory so we know what bad quarterbacking looks like.  Allen isn't just a breadth of fresh air he's a freaking hurricane.

 

Your critiques of Allen are at best silly and at worst mean spirited.  What I don't get is do you actually enjoy messing with another fan base?  It just seems so small minded.

 

 

 

 

 

First off I never said I don’t want Allen to be the Bills qb. I firmly believe he is the perfect qb for this team. To me he is 2nd best in the league behind you know who. He’s better than the other qb you admire in Burrow. Give Allen those 3 #1 receivers Burrow has and he’d probably get 50 TDs every season.

 

Yeah the team has suffered through a long period of crap qb’s and Allen has lifted us out of that. Now standards and expectations are raised because of it. To reach the ultimate goal Allen has to lead this team there. He won’t be able to do that if he can’t overcome his mistakes. I don’t think it’s silly to criticize a qb for this. You apparently think it’s silly to criticize at all. What happens next year if this team gets bounced again? Who will the blame fall on? It can’t always be everyone else. Listen it’s great that the Bills are relevant again after many years in the dark. But goals have risen and fans should not be satisfied with good regular seasons then fall flat when it matters most. 
 

Now let’s address your soapbox fandom rant. So to be a real fan one has to react to team’s accomplishments or shortcomings the exact way you’d like them to. Otherwise they’re not real fans. Can’t possibly be. Well it’s a good thing you’re not the arbiter of what a real fan should be.

 

The last part you wrote was a little puzzling to me. Are you saying that I’m here ‘messing with another fanbase’? Well for once we do agree on something. That WOULD be very ‘small minded’ if someone were to do that. Not to mention a lot of wasted time. Geez.

 

No that’s not my case. I was very frustrated with the 2nd half of this season that culminated in the debacle that was the Cincy game. So that was when I joined the fray to vent my frustrations with this team, Allen included. Sorry if that ruffles your faithful feathers. 

Edited April 18, 2023 by 90sBills

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

14 hours ago, Rock-A-Bye Beasley said:

I’m more than thrilled we have Josh. But Until he figured out the deep ball I thought passing on Mahomes was an epic blunder. It still is technically on paper but I wouldn’t swap as crazy as that sounds to some outside of bills fans 
 

im more interested in this alternate universe where Mahomes is sitting behind Tyrod in 2018.

 

Instead of peterman coming in it’s Mahomes?

 

Instead of Tyrod against the Jags scoring 3 points it’s Mahomes?

 

Do they get to the Super Bowl that year considering how close the Jags got?
 

 

 

It's always fun to play the "what if" games, but I don't think about the 2017-2018 playoffs very much.

 

That roster was hot garbage. Replacing Tyord with a raw Mahomes would've improved the team a little bit, maybe even enough to win the Jaguars game.

 

Beyond that though? What are the odds of us going to Pitt and scoring 45 points in the divisional round? Or going to NE for the championship game and winning there? 

 

Any given Sunday and all that, but I think there's less than 1% chance we would've made the SB that year with a rookie Mahomes playing. 

[ChronicAndKnuckles]

20 hours ago, 90sBills said:

I’m only bringing up the accolades because you questioned Mahomes having the most accomplished start to a career for the position. It isn’t even debatable at this point.

 

Allen is very talented but hof will remain to be seen without a Lombardi. Right now he’s on the Phillip Rivers career track. 

Yes, Mahomes is the best at the moment. I don’t think that’s even up for debate. Allen was supposed to be a project QB and the fact he broke Marino’s record is mind blowing considering he didn’t really put it all together until his 3rd year. 
 

On track with Rivers?! Those Chargers teams were Fing STACKED w/ HOF talent on every side of the ball. I actually had to go back and check out their mid 2000s roster. It is even better than I remember. Imagine if Buffalo had a Tomlinson/ Sproles/Michael Turner trio, Antonio Gates, Vincent Jackson, Keenan McCardell as their #2, prime Shawn Merriman as their pass rusher, the list goes on & on. Rivers is Jim Kelly if you ordered him on Wish. They are not even in the same stratosphere as far as the actual talent of the position. Didn’t Allen beat him in the playoffs? 

[Zerovoltz]

It seems like the conversation is deviating from the OP original question...this isn't a swap out Mahomes for Allen quesiton...at least that isn't what was asked...it's would you still have Allen if the trade didn't happen....and the answer is YES.  you would.  The draft picks involved in trading up to 7 with Tampa didn't involve the 1st round selection KC traded to the Bills.  Also, the Bills were NOT taking a QB in 2017...that's been well documented.  

[90sBills]

1 hour ago, ChronicAndKnuckles said:

Yes, Mahomes is the best at the moment. I don’t think that’s even up for debate. Allen was supposed to be a project QB and the fact he broke Marino’s record is mind blowing considering he didn’t really put it all together until his 3rd year. 
 

On track with Rivers?! Those Chargers teams were Fing STACKED w/ HOF talent on every side of the ball. I actually had to go back and check out their mid 2000s roster. It is even better than I remember. Imagine if Buffalo had a Tomlinson/ Sproles/Michael Turner trio, Antonio Gates, Vincent Jackson, Keenan McCardell as their #2, prime Shawn Merriman as their pass rusher, the list goes on & on. Rivers is Jim Kelly if you ordered him on Wish. They are not even in the same stratosphere as far as the actual talent of the position. Didn’t Allen beat him in the playoffs? 

Yeah Allen with those Chargers squads in the mid 2000s would be devastating for the league! Allen did beat Rivers his final year in the league. Sent him to retirement. 😂 

 

You’re right of course. Allen is a lot more talented. I am confident he will get at least 1 Superbowl. Just a matter of time. 

[NoSaint]

12 hours ago, Madbillsfan said:

They have. We all have at some point or another. Sometimes people commit to someone or something and will lie to protect their fragility. 

I’ll be honest, I think most of us never even connected the dots to ask. Trades get so hard to keep track of.