2023 NFL Combine Results and News

[NewEra]

2 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

It's always a crap shoot. But he's faster and has 20 pounds on late 1st/ 2nd round guys like Flowers and Hyatt. 

 

He also had better college production than Diggs had. 

But he doesn’t run routes and have hands like flowers.

 

I think the comparison to Hyatt is legit.  Neither run routes other than go routes crosses and hitches. 

Edited March 8, 2023 by NewEra

[Straight Hucklebuck]

3 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

The way a #2 TE gets on the field is to move away from a 3WR set because they don’t have 3 good WRs.

If Allen and the Bills window is now, I don't see how #2 Tight End makes sense. 

 

"because they don't have 3 good WRs" and we're out there taking backup Tight Ends to help Allen?

 

Maybe the picture becomes clearer after Free Agency, as it looks like the Bills will have Poyer and Edmunds money to spend. 

 

 

[Figster]

I really hope this doesn't happen

 

https://www.arrowheadpride.com/2023/3/7/23624669/chiefs-2023-nfl-draft-prospects-tennessee-wr-jalin-hyatt

[Solomon Grundy]

4 hours ago, Magox said:

This guy could be available in the 4th or 5th round and looks like a potential TE sleeper.  Off-the-charts athleticism and size and had a really productive junior year.

 

Looks like he could turn out to be a good blocker and has some wiggle to his route running.

 

 

Close enough to Zach Ertz... Book em

4 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Shopping just for fast 40 times is not the best way to scout (imho).  Palmer has some good traits, but I don’t think he is coming into the league and playing a lot on offense this season.

 

The RB. might have a chance to play some in the league as it is an easier position to make an impact.

Just ask Speedy Stevenson 😎

[Motorin']

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

But he doesn’t run routes and have hands like flowers.

 

I think the comparison to Hyatt is legit.  Neither run routes other than go routes crosses and hitches. 

 

Palmer definitely needs work on his route tree. But his deep throat from outside wo is undeniable. And his size is adequate. 

 

Flowers only caught 57% of his passes in college and he's small. He literally had 130 incomplete catches out of 300.

 

Do you see him staying on the outside? If not, I think Downs has much better hands as a Beasley type security blanket in the slot who can also get vertical...

 

Still not sure the value at wo is there at 27.  

 

 

 

 

[BigAl2526]

On 3/4/2023 at 1:22 PM, Doc said:

The Bills need a big WR with speed.

He's a sleeper, but he fits your criteria.  Andrei Iosivas is from Princeton of all places and clocked a 4.43 40 at 6'3."  That's not Randy Moss speed, but he's about as fast a big guy as there is in this draft.  He's probably a mid-round draft pick.

[NewEra]

32 minutes ago, Motorin' said:

 

Palmer definitely needs work on his route tree. But his deep throat from outside wo is undeniable. And his size is adequate. 

 

Flowers only caught 57% of his passes in college and he's small. He literally had 130 incomplete catches out of 300.

 

Do you see him staying on the outside? If not, I think Downs has much better hands as a Beasley type security blanket in the slot who can also get vertical...

 

Still not sure the value at wo is there at 27.  

 

 

 

 

I think Downs is slot only while Flowers can play both and is faster.  I’ve seen Tyler Lockett comps for Flowers while I think a better comp would be TY Hilton.  
 

Count me in as someone that would like to add another solid TE and play more 12 personnel (or maybe morris can bulk and improve as a blocker).  If we can force teams to play us closer to the line of scrimmage, our entire offense will open up.
 

That said- I think flowers has more value to a team that will play some 12 personnel while Downs would be on the bench.  I’m not against passing on Flowers if he’s there.  Any WR his size comes with some risks.  I’ll be furious if we pass on addison, Johnston or jsn.  I’ll trust @Kirby Jackson when he says jsn can flex outside.  He and Diggs would give defenses headaches 
 

 

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Motorin' said:

 

Do you see him staying on the outside? If not, I think Downs has much better hands as a Beasley type security blanket in the slot who can also get vertical...

 

Still not sure the value at wo is there at 27.  

 

 

Add me as someone who is not sold on Flowers as an outside receiver in the NFL. He can run routes but he just comes across as weak to me.

 

Some people have him in that top tier of WRs. I don't. I still think he is in tier 2 with Hyatt and Downs. 

 

Tier 1 remains Addison, Johnston and JSN and none of them are elite either.

Edited March 8, 2023 by GunnerBill

[OldTimer1960]

4 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If Allen and the Bills window is now, I don't see how #2 Tight End makes sense. 

 

"because they don't have 3 good WRs" and we're out there taking backup Tight Ends to help Allen?

 

Maybe the picture becomes clearer after Free Agency, as it looks like the Bills will have Poyer and Edmunds money to spend. 

 

 

I’m not necessarily advocating for another TE.  I think that most here would agree that the offense needs more weapons - I’m just thinking that it is possible that the best offensive weapon available when they pick might be a TE.

[Pete]

6 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

If Allen and the Bills window is now, I don't see how #2 Tight End makes sense. 

 

"because they don't have 3 good WRs" and we're out there taking backup Tight Ends to help Allen?

 

Maybe the picture becomes clearer after Free Agency, as it looks like the Bills will have Poyer and Edmunds money to spend. 

 

 

many reasons.  For one- this draft is one of the deepest TE classes that I can recall.  There are many quality TEs available top 100 picks.  It's a very weak WR class.  Don't draft for need, draft BPA, which a good chance it will be a TE.

Pair Knox with a quality TE, that will open up playbook, create mismatches, and make Josh even harder to defend.

YAC- we our leagues worst in YAC

We are a Knox injury from starting Morris at TE- is that a superbowl lineup?

We need offense!  It's 2023- get Josh a modern offense with weapons galore!

a TE is a QB's best friend.  Ask Mahomes

if you overdraft a player in position of need, you end up with Cordy Ford and

TE, DT, S, RB are all deep in this draft- give me BPA!

[MrEpsYtown]

People will probably hate this but here goes....Talking heads are beginning to mock edge rushers to the Bills. And I know it grinds some people's gears, but it is a need. Once Von got hurt, no one could get to the quarterback. Obviously, they have needs at OL and offensive weapons, but in theory, they can add OL in FA and later in the draft. If all the 1st round receivers are gone, your next best bet for an offensive weapon is a TE or RB (which can also be found in free agency). What can't be found in free agency is sacks, and so I think there is some merit to that thought process.

 

If it really is BPA based on need, here are the needs IMO: 

 

Edge, LB, Safety, OL, offensive weapons. 

 

I think OL and LB get knocked out in UFA, I really do. If they sign OBJ, there is the OW. Outside of OBJ, DJ Chark, Mecole Hardman, and Noah Brown, the WR UFA crew doesn't really excite me. 

 

If they can't add a WR, that leaves you with edge, WR, #2TE, and safety as needs. Unless a top WR falls, the value is at the edge position.  

[NewEra]

8 minutes ago, MrEpsYtown said:

People will probably hate this but here goes....Talking heads are beginning to mock edge rushers to the Bills. And I know it grinds some people's gears, but it is a need. Once Von got hurt, no one could get to the quarterback. Obviously, they have needs at OL and offensive weapons, but in theory, they can add OL in FA and later in the draft. If all the 1st round receivers are gone, your next best bet for an offensive weapon is a TE or RB (which can also be found in free agency). What can't be found in free agency is sacks, and so I think there is some merit to that thought process.

 

If it really is BPA based on need, here are the needs IMO: 

 

Edge, LB, Safety, OL, offensive weapons. 

 

I think OL and LB get knocked out in UFA, I really do. If they sign OBJ, there is the OW. Outside of OBJ, DJ Chark, Mecole Hardman, and Noah Brown, the WR UFA crew doesn't really excite me. 

 

If they can't add a WR, that leaves you with edge, WR, #2TE, and safety as needs. Unless a top WR falls, the value is at the edge position.  

It’s definitely a need, but this class is pretty deep @ pass rusher.  I wouldn’t be shocked if we took one in rd 1 but think there’s some solid value in rd 4-5

[Straight Hucklebuck]

2 hours ago, Pete said:

many reasons.  For one- this draft is one of the deepest TE classes that I can recall.  There are many quality TEs available top 100 picks.  It's a very weak WR class.  Don't draft for need, draft BPA, which a good chance it will be a TE.

Pair Knox with a quality TE, that will open up playbook, create mismatches, and make Josh even harder to defend.

YAC- we our leagues worst in YAC

We are a Knox injury from starting Morris at TE- is that a superbowl lineup?

We need offense!  It's 2023- get Josh a modern offense with weapons galore!

a TE is a QB's best friend.  Ask Mahomes

if you overdraft a player in position of need, you end up with Cordy Ford and

TE, DT, S, RB are all deep in this draft- give me BPA!

Ok, but this is the OC/Coaching Staff that couldn't figure out how to get Nyheim Hines more than 11 touches on offense after his trade to Buffalo on November 1st. 

 

We're going to believe that Dorsey can execute a shift in offensive philosophy to a 2-Tight End approach, on a team, with a QB that has never shown proclivity to throw to them?

 

Also, I never have believed in BPA. 

 

I think what happens is the team grades all prospects, ranks them, and as they approach each pick there are 3-5 guys worthy of the selection, and sometimes need breaks the tie. 

 

A strict BPA is not a real strategy. 

 

Also, when you say it's a weak WR draft, there will still be 10 of them that goes off the board in the first two rounds, and we're picking at #27, not 10th. 

 

[NewEra]

4 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Ok, but this is the OC/Coaching Staff that couldn't figure out how to get Nyheim Hines more than 11 touches on offense after his trade to Buffalo on November 1st. 

 

We're going to believe that Dorsey can execute a shift in offensive philosophy to a 2-Tight End approach, on a team, with a QB that has never shown proclivity to throw to them?

 

Also, I never have believed in BPA. 

 

I think what happens is the team grades all prospects, ranks them, and as they approach each pick there are 3-5 guys worthy of the selection, and sometimes need breaks the tie. 

 

A strict BPA is not a real strategy. 

 

Also, when you say it's a weak WR draft, there will still be 10 of them that goes off the board in the first two rounds, and we're picking at #27, not 10th. 

 

if Beane and McDermott felt the same way about Dorsey as you. He wouldn’t be our OC.  I assure you that having Ken Dorsey as our OC wont keep them from trying new things. 
 

It’s really a strange thought tbh. 

 

McD:  I’d really like to be able to control the ball more.  I think implementing 12 personnel could keep the opposition off balance and force them to play us more in the box….which would open up the offense. 
 

Beane:  makes sense- I’d really like to get my hand on one of the top 3 WRs as I think there’s a big drop off after them, with the next 10 WRs being closely graded.  I have a first rd grade on Kincaid and Meyer. We could go best playmaker available rd 1, then  go OL/WR.  If the top TEs are gone, we can grab another TE later as it’s one of the best TE classes in recent memory 

 

McD- yeah I really like some of these tight ends.  Do you think Dorsey can make 12 personnel work?

 

Beane 

 

McD: 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

5 minutes ago, NewEra said:

if Beane and McDermott felt the same way about Dorsey as you. He wouldn’t be our OC.  I assure you that having Ken Dorsey as our OC wont keep them from trying new things. 
 

It’s really a strange thought tbh. 

 

McD:  I’d really like to be able to control the ball more.  I think implementing 12 personnel could keep the opposition off balance and force them to play us more in the box….which would open up the offense. 
 

Beane:  makes sense- I’d really like to get my hand on one of the top 3 WRs as I think there’s a big drop off after them, with the next 10 WRs being closely graded.  I have a first rd grade on Kincaid and Meyer. We could go best playmaker available rd 1, then  go OL/WR.  If the top TEs are gone, we can grab another TE later as it’s one of the best TE classes in recent memory 

 

McD- yeah I really like some of these tight ends.  Do you think Dorsey can make 12 personnel work?

 

Beane 

 

McD: 

Reality: Bills got to 2nd in ppg 2020, 3rd in ppg in 2021, 2nd in ppg in 2022 on the back of Allen throwing to WRs. 

 

Maybe they'll do the McBeane thing and select another DE in Round 1 because he's "BPA" 

 

 

[GunnerBill]

27 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Also, when you say it's a weak WR draft, there will still be 10 of them that goes off the board in the first two rounds, and we're picking at #27, not 10th. 

 

 

Maybe. I think there are 6 locks for the first two rounds:

 

Addison, Johnstone, JSN, Flowers, Hyatt, Downs..... 

 

After that there are a few that could - Rice, Tillman, Boutte, Scott, Dell, Hutchinson, Palmer... but I think I'd take the under on 10. 

[Maine-iac]

3 minutes ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

Reality: Bills got to 2nd in ppg 2020, 3rd in ppg in 2021, 2nd in ppg in 2022 on the back of Allen throwing to WRs. 

 

Maybe they'll do the McBeane thing and select another DE in Round 1 because he's "BPA" 

 

 

Knox has 15 TD's in the last two years.  PPG is not all a WR thing.  Perhaps if we had more than one legit TE there would be more production from the TE position as far as catches and yardage.  Not sure Sweeney or Morris moved the needle enough for them to make two TE's a thing.

[SWATeam]

6 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Add me as someone who is not sold on Flowers as an outside receiver in the NFL. He can run routes but he just comes across as weak to me.

 

Some people have him in that top tier of WRs. I don't. I still think he is in tier 2 with Hyatt and Downs. 

 

Tier 1 remains Addison, Johnston and JSN and none of them are elite either.

What exactly are Addison and JSN being knocked for?  Lack of high end athleticism?  All those dudes do is get open.

 

I can see the question marks with Hyatt, Johnston, and Flowers though I still like them.

 

Personally, I would like one of those receivers above or one of the top TE's (I like Mayer/Washington/Kincaid) at 27.

[OldTimer1960]

9 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

What exactly are Addison and JSN being knocked for?  Lack of high end athleticism?  All those dudes do is get open.

 

I can see the question marks with Hyatt, Johnston, and Flowers though I still like them.

 

Personally, I would like one of those receivers above or one of the top TE's (I like Mayer/Washington/Kincaid) at 27.

With Addison it is his thin frame and modest speed to size ratio.  He ran about a 4.5 40 which is acceptable, but at 175ish pounds, you hoped for a bit faster time.  Still, his quickness and route running chops are evident.  The only knock I’ve heard on JSN is modest top end speed and that there are questions if he is mostly a slot guy.  Like Addison, JSN has demonstrated that he can get open, but missing most of last season with a hamstring leaves him with only one (very) productive season - I don’t think this is the case, but it is possible to wonder if his production in 2021 was due to defenses paying more attention to Garret Williams and Chris Olave.

[SWATeam]

5 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

With Addison it is his thin frame and modest speed to size ratio.  He ran about a 4.5 40 which is acceptable, but at 175ish pounds, you hoped for a bit faster time.  Still, his quickness and route running chops are evident.  The only knock I’ve heard on JSN is modest top end speed and that there are questions if he is mostly a slot guy.  Like Addison, JSN has demonstrated that he can get open, but missing most of last season with a hamstring leaves him with only one (very) productive season - I don’t think this is the case, but it is possible to wonder if his production in 2021 was due to defenses paying more attention to Garret Williams and Chris Olave.

If one of those two fall it's an absolute no-brainier.  They know how to play football, I couldn't care less about timed speed.

[Motorin']

9 hours ago, NewEra said:

I think Downs is slot only while Flowers can play both and is faster.  I’ve seen Tyler Lockett comps for Flowers while I think a better comp would be TY Hilton.  
 

Count me in as someone that would like to add another solid TE and play more 12 personnel (or maybe morris can bulk and improve as a blocker).  If we can force teams to play us closer to the line of scrimmage, our entire offense will open up.
 

That said- I think flowers has more value to a team that will play some 12 personnel while Downs would be on the bench.  I’m not against passing on Flowers if he’s there.  Any WR his size comes with some risks.  I’ll be furious if we pass on addison, Johnston or jsn.  I’ll trust @Kirby Jackson when he says jsn can flex outside.  He and Diggs would give defenses headaches 
 

 

 

I'm not opposed to Kincaid at 27, if he's still there. As long as the idea is he's an inside / outside receiving threat that could be a 1,000 yard reciever. 

 

Totally agree with playing more 12, especially with two TE's that cause problems in the passing game. 

[MrEpsYtown]

1 hour ago, NewEra said:

It’s definitely a need, but this class is pretty deep @ pass rusher.  I wouldn’t be shocked if we took one in rd 1 but think there’s some solid value in rd 4-5

 

I agree with you on the overall class. It is actually an interesting bunch. However, I still think this regime is chasing sacks and looking for that premiere, cheap pass rusher. 

 

Guys like Zach Harrison, Tyree Wilson, Myles Murphy, Keion White, Van Ness and Isaiah Foskey...these guys look like they were built in a lab to play for McDermott. I do like their interest in Nolan Smith as he represents kind of a different flavor than what they are used to...a Hassan Reddick type of end. I honestly wouldn't be mad at any of them. 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Maine-iac said:

Knox has 15 TD's in the last two years.  PPG is not all a WR thing.  Perhaps if we had more than one legit TE there would be more production from the TE position as far as catches and yardage.  Not sure Sweeney or Morris moved the needle enough for them to make two TE's a thing.

According to Sal Capaccio, the Bills signing OJ Howard and Tyler Kroft showed true attempts to get better at the position. 

 

Howard is a first round bust, and Kroft has 1,000 yard receiving total for his entire career. Bottom of the barrel investments. 

 

Our current Tight End #2 was an undrafted player. 

 

Mayer's consistency across three seasons is intriguing to me. Musgrave hasn't been able to stay healthy. Kincaid has one big year. Washington looks like a big-catch specialist at Georgia, LePorta has two solid years and good Combine. 

 

 

[Maine-iac]

1 hour ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

According to Sal Capaccio, the Bills signing OJ Howard and Tyler Kroft showed true attempts to get better at the position. 

 

Howard is a first round bust, and Kroft has 1,000 yard receiving total for his entire career. Bottom of the barrel investments. 

 

Our current Tight End #2 was an undrafted player. 

 

Mayer's consistency across three seasons is intriguing to me. Musgrave hasn't been able to stay healthy. Kincaid has one big year. Washington looks like a big-catch specialist at Georgia, LePorta has two solid years and good Combine. 

 

 

Musgrave has nice size and had 11 catches in two games before he got hurt.  If he's healthy and around later on he'd be a nice pick up.

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, Maine-iac said:

Musgrave has nice size and had 11 catches in two games before he got hurt.  If he's healthy and around later on he'd be a nice pick up.

I don't see it, don't like the way he moves.  Looks like he's always ready to fall over when he has the ball in his hands.

[Maine-iac]

8 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

I don't see it, don't like the way he moves.  Looks like he's always ready to fall over when he has the ball in his hands.

Can't say I watched a ton of Oregon State games but just from one 2023 game, senior bowl week practice and game, and then scouting combine he looks pretty damn good.  Not sure if a 6'7" guy is supposed to look like a half back but he can get open and he can catch.  All the scouting reports I've seen say he can block also.  Couple videos had guys saying 1st round pick.  Not sure I want to spend 27 on any TE.  I wish there was lock of an OL player or safety.  Guess we'll see where we are after free agency gets going.

[OldTimer1960]

31 minutes ago, Maine-iac said:

Musgrave has nice size and had 11 catches in two games before he got hurt.  If he's healthy and around later on he'd be a nice pick up.

I am not dogging Musgrave, but those two big games were against weaker Mountain West teams (Boise State and I forget who else).  If he played more games against better competition, it would be easier to project him.  That being said, Dawson Knox had very little receiving production in college and I think he is doing quite well in the league.

[OldTimer1960]

On 3/4/2023 at 12:21 PM, LyndonvilleBill said:

Not feeling it. I must be missing something as I don't see it watching his highlights. I'm just seeing a McKenzie replacement. 🤔

Flowers >>> McKenzie

[Pete]

10 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

 

Also, when you say it's a weak WR draft, there will still be 10 of them that goes off the board in the first two rounds, and we're picking at #27, not 10th. 

 

your on.  If 10 WR are drafted in first round(which I highly doubt!) they would be so over drafted!  22 starting positions - 63 selections in the first two rounds.  So you are saying 16% of players taken in the first two rounds are WR?  LOL

 

I hope that other teams are so stupid!  That way a stud S, RB, TE, DL will fall to us.  And I hope to God we don't over draft a WR

Edited March 8, 2023 by Pete

[LyndonvilleBill]

4 hours ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Flowers >>> McKenzie

If you say so. He's not really any bigger, isn't any quicker or faster, had 9 drops last season. From what I've read, won't be any better in zone and I haven't seen him do anything in the highlights I've watched that I haven't seen McKenzie do. But if you think he is, that's OK. 👍

[NewEra]

23 minutes ago, LyndonvilleBill said:

If you say so. He's not really any bigger, isn't any quicker or faster, had 9 drops last season. From what I've read, won't be any better in zone and I haven't seen him do anything in the highlights I've watched that I haven't seen McKenzie do. But if you think he is, that's OK. 👍

I think most scouts would take flowers over Mckenzie.  Professional and couch.  The problem is what we’ve seen what Mckenzie does do.  I’m a proud member of the Lil dirty fan club but he had a chance and failed.  
 

if your point is that Zay isn’t any good, you’re entitled.  I’m def worried about his physical size going up against nfl sized corners, but he’s shown that he can go snag himself contested some catches.  If I draft him it’s because I think he can get open, rac and score TDs…. but not for his hands.  

[LyndonvilleBill]

48 minutes ago, NewEra said:

I think most scouts would take flowers over Mckenzie.  Professional and couch.  The problem is what we’ve seen what Mckenzie does do.  I’m a proud member of the Lil dirty fan club but he had a chance and failed.  
 

if your point is that Zay isn’t any good, you’re entitled.  I’m def worried about his physical size going up against nfl sized corners, but he’s shown that he can go snag himself contested some catches.  If I draft him it’s because I think he can get open, rac and score TDs…. but not for his hands.  

Probably why I am not a scout.😉. I'm a member as well (unofficial president 😁). Personally I don't think he failed, I don't think he was used correctly. He's a gadget guy and a backup slot. I never expected 100 catches and 1000 plus yard (albeit it would have been great). 

 

I never said Zay wasn't any good, I think he's fine, just not considerably anything better than what we already have. I don't see enough of a difference between Shakir (5th) or McKenzie (5th) and Zay as what a 1st/2nd? 

 

What's that saying,  "Better to dance with the devil you know than the one you don't".? 🤔 

Edited March 9, 2023 by LyndonvilleBill

[Buffalo Barbarian]

On 3/3/2023 at 11:09 AM, Big Turk said:

 

Streaming online.

 

Where?