In a 3 year period, how did we end up with so many holes on this team.

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Victory Formation said:

Is it the players? Or is it the coaches? What do you think? Could Edmunds or Oliver go elsewhere and suddenly become dominant? Wouldn’t surprise me personally.

I am beginning to think a mix of both... You know.. early year I did a post saying that we are not the most complete team that the eagles and jets are more of a complete team then us. Jets just without a QB. I GOT HAMMERED in that thread. And look where we are now?

[Gunsgoodtime]

8 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I 100% agree but at what point does the GM have to be held accountable for average at bast draft picks? 

Depends on the owner.  Not going to happen, but if I was Terry and looked at the current roster, draft capital failure, and total disregard for offense, I would have been holding the end of the year presser myself announcing Beane and McDermott have been released.  We thank them for what they have done in their time here

[HOUSE]

As a 40 year expert on buffalo bills doom and gloom

You can expect MAYBE 3 new starters next year.

Remember where you heard it.

[Negan]

5 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

you can't keep a HC away from the draft. You nuts? 

Incoming 1st round defensive end draft pick coming, watch out everyone.

[BullBuchanan]

6 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Which is also affected by where in each round you are picking.  The Bills have been picking late in each round for the past several years.  That obviously has an impact on the quality of players left to choose from in each round.

Not that much. In every draft we've had over the last 5 years you can look at a team that's drafted after us and picked a superior player excluding Josh Allen.

We traded up for Edmunds who underperformed until year 5 and could have had Shaq Leonard a round later or Fred Warner 2 rounds later who have been superior since their rookie year.

We drafted Cody Ford the following year and could have had any number of superior playmakers including all pro WRs in AJ Brown and Metcalf.

Additionally we panicked after runs on players out of need. We drafted Moss as the 9th RB taken in the 3rd round, well after the value was gone. The top 6 have all been meaningful contributors and the rest have been ineffective depth. You can't do that with a 3rd round pick. Similar situation with Epenesa in a weak EDGE class in the 2nd.

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Gunsgoodtime said:

Depends on the owner.  Not going to happen, but if I was Terry and looked at the current roster, draft capital failure, and total disregard for offense, I would have been holding the end of the year presser myself announcing Beane and McDermott have been released.  We thank them for what they have done in their time here

bolded. 2 quick. it would look like a knee jerk reaction... I disagree

[Gunsgoodtime]

9 minutes ago, Mango said:

 

When he gets to the point he cannot turn it around.

The bottom started to fall out of the foundation of the team. He likely has an opportunity to hit one last draft out of the park. At which point I believe McD stays and BB hits the road if he fails. 

I believe they both hit the road after next year.  I dont think they can fix what they have done with years of poor drafting this year.  Its too much to overcome 

[cgg716]

45 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Let’s just say Chiefs and Bengals. Let’s not act like anyone else beats Buffalo.

 

We’re not beating those teams without a pass rush. Until they face them in the playoffs with a pass rush they aren’t winning.

He's been throughly outclassed as a coach by more than just Cin and KC though... or worse been bafflingly unprepared multiple times a season, cost us games and seeding 

[PrimeTime101]

Just now, Negan said:

Incoming 1st round defensive end draft pick coming, watch out everyone.

I am starting to wonder about you.. I think your just trolling at this point for a reaction.

 

knock it off. 

[Victory Formation]

Just now, PrimeTime101 said:

I am beginning to think a mix of both... You know.. early year I did a post saying that we are not the most complete team that the eagles and jets are more of a complete team then us. Jets just without a QB. I GOT HAMMERED in that thread. And look where we are now?

Understandable. Bills fans have a bully mentality at times, I’ve caught the short end of it as well.

I would love to see Terry moderate a debate between Beane and McD, whose at fault here?

 

In my mind, I find our defenses to be completely underwhelming and that’s on Coach McDermott. Let’s not pretend like McD has no pull in who we draft. Edmunds and Oliver, those are his guys, let’s not try to bury that fact.

[Fallser]

13 minutes ago, Negan said:

Keep Sean McDermott away from the draft and I bet we see a lot better results moving forward, send a draft guide to Beane and I'd wager the results would be better!!

Uh, just no. HCs are Absolutely a part of the draft...

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, Victory Formation said:

Understandable. Bills fans have a bully mentality at times, I’ve caught the short end of it as well.

I would love to see Terry moderate a debate between Beane and McD, whose at fault here?

 

In my mind, I find our defenses to be completely underwhelming and that’s on Coach McDermott. Let’s not pretend like McD has no pull in who we draft. Edmunds and Oliver, those are his guys, let’s not try to bury that fact.

To the bolded. For all we know, this could already be happening.

McD needs to let the next DC run their own defense... Not McD's schemes. IF I am trying to save my own head, I admit my failure to my own scheme and say that "i need to reach out for a DC with his own scheme"

[DrDawkinstein]

1 hour ago, PrimeTime101 said:

1. HB. For the sake of argument, likely Singletary is going to be gone

2. Guard. say no more.

3. Tackle. no doubt.

4. WR Shakir deserves his shot as #3 next year and this WR team not getting younger.

5. DT

6. Its likely we do not pay Edmunds what he want unless he accepts a home team contract.

7. FS. I love Poyer but we need speed here.

 

We have a decision to make. We start the year at 4 mil to the good. Do we go all in on The O'Line or do we continue to draft aged vets to fil holes and live with what we got?

 

Change is needed but how do we move forward? Outside of coaching, what is your game plan? Fix one group or what?

 

1. I think Singletary comes back cheap. The RB Free Agency market is loaded, and prices are coming down by the minute. And if not, I like Cook (and Hines). Cook was a draft pick, and Hines was acquired with another drafted RB. No loss there either way.

 

2. Definite need. Has been for 2-3 seasons. Inexcusable to not address.

 

3. I'm not giving up on Brown, yet.

 

4. Agreed, Shakir needs a chance at a promotion, AND we need to draft WR early.

 

5. DT. If we're bringing everyone back and Jones is healthy, I dont see too bad a hole there.

 

6. I think we do pay Edmunds. We'll see.

 

7. Safeties will be Hyde & Hamlin. We had drafted Hamlin and Johnson to replace Hyde and Poyer. As we found this year, Johnson aint it, but Hamlin wasnt too bad in his first year getting real reps.

 

I know we're all disappointed right now and feeling bad, and Beane certainly has his work cut out for him, but I don't see so many glaring holes that they can't be addressed.

 

Go all Offense in the draft (OL, OL, WR, OL,...), sign a couple guys, and let's roll.

[Fallser]

Holes?  Here ya go feast on this mediocrity from the past 5 years.  Obviously Josh was a hit and Tre is great but there's a TON of "meh" in here...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/draft.htm

[McBean]

Bad drafting.

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

1. I think Singletary comes back cheap. The RB Free Agency market is loaded, and prices are coming down by the minute. And if not, I like Cook (and Hines). Cook was a draft pick, and Hines was acquired with another drafted RB. No loss there either way.

 

2. Definite need. Has been for 2-3 seasons. Inexcusable to not address.

 

3. I'm not giving up on Brown, yet.

 

4. Agreed, Shakir needs a chance at a promotion, AND we need to draft WR early.

 

5. DT. If we're bringing everyone back and Jones is healthy, I dont see too bad a hole there.

 

6. I think we do pay Edmunds. We'll see.

 

7. Safeties will be Hyde & Hamlin. We had drafted Hamlin and Johnson to replace Hyde and Poyer. As we found this year, Johnson aint it, but Hamlin wasnt too bad in his first year getting real reps.

 

I know we're all disappointed right now and feeling bad, and Beane certainly has his work cut out for him, but I don't see so many glaring holes that they can't be addressed.

 

Go all Offense in the draft (OL, OL, WR, OL,...), sign a couple guys, and let's roll.

OL, WR, OL, OL in that order in the draft? I think OL should be priority #1 

[Victory Formation]

Just now, PrimeTime101 said:

To the bolded. For all we know, this could already be happening.

McD needs to let the next DC run their own defense... Not McD's schemes. IF I am trying to save my own head, I admit my failure to my own scheme and say that "i need to reach out for a DC with his own scheme"

That’s his forte though. McD is from a defensive background, I find it hard not to assume that McD is not at fault here, his defenses are trash. Why keep him around? Why not hire a HC from an offensive background to work with Josh? First it was 13 seconds and then we get blown out by the Bengals, let’s not try to pretend like our defense is the Steel Curtain or Legion of Boom here.

[WNYFAN1]

~50% of cap spent on the top five highest-paid players:

 

Allen - 17.54

Diggs - 8.94

Miller - 8.21

White - 7.16

Dawkins - 6.54

[Buffalo_Stampede]

34 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

The problem with the way the NFL and sports fans use the term "analytics" is that they mostly focus on aggregate scores that show everything is great and don't take into consideration specific situational outcomes that would indicate why this team comes up small in big situations - this would be referred to as "insights". Why is that? Because it's a lot harder to do the latter. You need to know the questions to ask and you need to understand domain knowledge enough to make use of it. Without it, you might as well go by "the eye test".

You mean why they lose to the Chiefs and Bengals in the playoffs. 
 

The eye test tells me the DL sucks vs the Chiefs and Bengals in the playoffs. OL a close 2nd. We lose the battle up front.

Edited January 25, 2023 by Buffalo_Stampede

[PrimeTime101]

2 minutes ago, Fallser said:

Holes?  Here ya go feast on this mediocrity from the past 5 years.  Obviously Josh was a hit and Tre is great but there's a TON of "meh" in here...

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/draft.htm

 

1 minute ago, McBean said:

Bad drafting.

you guys are the third and Fourth that agree with me in this thread.. maybe more... Do you have confidence that Beane can fix it on one solid year?

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, PrimeTime101 said:

OL, WR, OL, OL in that order in the draft? I think OL should be priority #1 

 

I had said OL, OL, WR, OL, but it ultimately depends on the players available at each pick. But we need at least 2-3 OL and 2 WRs out of this draft, with a top priority on OL.

[SCBills]

I'll be very interested to see how the Chiefs look against the Bengals this weekend.  

 

We were very clearly exposed by Cincy, but I'm not so sure they won't do the same to Kansas City. 

 

The Bills and Chiefs both have flawed rosters outside QB.  The Bengals (outside OL injuries) are in the mold of San Fran and Philly.  

 

The Chiefs have a better shot because they don't have a rookie OC and Spags is 10x more suited to coach up modern day Defense than the stale/played out Leslie Fraizer Defense.. but they have far more weaknesses than this current Bengals squad. 

 

Cincy is a perfect storm of hitting on picks, hitting on FA, still having a rookie QB contract AND the blessing in disguise of the Burrow injury year to get that elite WR they otherwise wouldn't have, which is really what makes their Offense so absurd with already having Higgins and Boyd. 

 

Bills really screwed up their chance to compete this year by making poor roster construction decisions in last years off-season and whiffing on the Epenesa, Basham and Oliver picks over the course of a few years. 

 

Edited January 25, 2023 by SCBills

[OldTimer1960]

6 minutes ago, Negan said:

Incoming 1st round defensive end draft pick coming, watch out everyone.

And that might be the right play if Miller is going to miss a lot of next season.  Premium position and clearly the don’t have a premier pass rusher.  Still, picking as late as the Bills selected Epenesa and Basham, you aren’t likely getting the next Bruce Smith.

 

somewhere in the thread above someone was lamenting the impact for “top 100” picks.  Really you get past the top half or so of round 1 and you are doing well to get solid players.  If all top 100 picks became top level stars, there would be a lot more stars in the league.  Of course, that doesn’t mean that there aren’t stars picked late in the draft or as UDFA, but those guys are pretty rare.  Sometimes you hit on guys like that (Milano, for example).

[mjt328]

52 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

1. HB. For the sake of argument, likely Singletary is going to be gone

2. Guard. say no more.

3. Tackle. no doubt.

4. WR Shakir deserves his shot as #3 next year and this WR team not getting younger.

5. DT

6. Its likely we do not pay Edmunds what he want unless he accepts a home team contract.

7. FS. I love Poyer but we need speed here.

 

We have a decision to make. We start the year at 4 mil to the good. Do we go all in on The O'Line or do we continue to draft aged vets to fil holes and live with what we got?

 

Change is needed but how do we move forward? Outside of coaching, what is your game plan? Fix one group or what?

 

Because the shelf-life of most NFL players is not long.

• You figure that most guys are drafted between 21-23 years-old, and it takes them about 2-3 seasons to reach their potential.  
• It varies by position, but players then start declining around age 30. 
• That means you are talking about roughly 4-7 years that you can expect guys to be at peak performance.

Every season, you will need to cycle-out older players.  Due to both declining skills and salary cap reasons.  The only way to keep your team competitive (even with a franchise QB) is to draft well and keep the pipeline stocked with young players.  When a Day 1-2 pick fails to pan-out, and throws a massive wrench in those plans.  Missing on guys like Cody Ford, Zack Moss, Spencer Brown, AJ Epenesa and Boogie Basham hurts us really bad.  Taking Terrell Bernard in the 3rd Round also seems like a massive waste, because he doesn't look ready to replace Tremaine Edmunds anytime soon.

 

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

57 minutes ago, Dick_Cheney said:

Football is a game of holes and penetration.

I’m a big fan of holes and penetration 😂

[PrimeTime101]

1 minute ago, WNYFAN1 said:

~50% of cap spent on the top five highest-paid players:

 

Allen - 17.54

Diggs - 8.94

Miller - 8.21

White - 7.16

Dawkins - 6.54

Bolded We can get some of that back If we adjust that contract.

Miller I think is one more year and done.

 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

12 minutes ago, cgg716 said:

He's been throughly outclassed as a coach by more than just Cin and KC though... or worse been bafflingly unprepared multiple times a season, cost us games and seeding 

I watch good teams lose to bad teams all the time, every season.

[BullBuchanan]

1 minute ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

You mean why they lose to the Chiefs and Bengals in the playoffs. 
 

The eye test tells me the DL sucks vs the Chiefs and Bengals in the playoffs. OL a close 2nd. We lose the battle up front.

Not specifically no. You can see the same problems in October that show up in January but Josh Allen and the leagues highest paid defense can cover it up for a while.

 

[RyanC883]

42 minutes ago, OldTimer1960 said:

Which is also affected by where in each round you are picking.  The Bills have been picking late in each round for the past several years.  That obviously has an impact on the quality of players left to choose from in each round.

 

they have passed on impact players while reaching for positions, notably DL. 

[Fallser]

2 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

 

you guys are the third and Fourth that agree with me in this thread.. maybe more... Do you have confidence that Beane can fix it on one solid year?

I'll admit I'm having doubts about Beane creep in...when you see our drafts since he took over, it's just Ewww...I mean 2022 class is buoyed by James Cook potential, the rest need to get it in gear....

[D. L. Hot-Flamethrower]

1 hour ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

The defense was considered one of the best analytically. There’s a lot of overreacting that happens when you lose in the playoffs, especially when you don’t show up.

 

It was the first season under McDermott real injuries happened. They still got back to the point they were last year. 

So your good to go, Thanks! I'm not and it's not overreacting

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, BullBuchanan said:

Not specifically no. You can see the same problems in October that show up in January but Josh Allen and the leagues highest paid defense can cover it up for a while.

 

Come on man. They aren’t going to be perfect every game. The Bills are one of the best organizations and coaching staffs in the NFL. They have work to do. They aren’t the best.

[PrimeTime101]

3 minutes ago, mjt328 said:

 

Because the shelf-life of most NFL players is not long.

• You figure that most guys are drafted between 21-23 years-old, and it takes them about 2-3 seasons to reach their potential.  
• It varies by position, but players then start declining around age 30. 
• That means you are talking about roughly 4-7 years that you can expect guys to be at peak performance.

Every season, you will need to cycle-out older players.  Due to both declining skills and salary cap reasons.  The only way to keep your team competitive (even with a franchise QB) is to draft well and keep the pipeline stocked with young players.  When a Day 1-2 pick fails to pan-out, and throws a massive wrench in those plans.  Missing on guys like Cody Ford, Zack Moss, Spencer Brown, AJ Epenesa and Boogie Basham hurts us really bad.  Taking Terrell Bernard in the 3rd Round also seems like a massive waste, because he doesn't look ready to replace Tremaine Edmunds anytime soon.

 

agree and agree.

[Fallser]

Terrel Bernard...like, What the Bleep???

[Buffalo_Stampede]

Just now, D. L. Hot-Flamethrower said:

So your good to go, Thanks! I'm not and it's not overreacting

I’m good to go with everything excluding the DL and OL. They have to fix the lines. More Da’Quan Jones DTs. Better pass rush schemes. Better pass rushers. Better OL.

[PrimeTime101]

16 minutes ago, PrimeTime101 said:

I am starting to wonder about you.. I think your just trolling at this point for a reaction.

 

knock it off. 

@HOUSE @cba fan  I am laughing at this as well... funny thing is, he never responded to it lol

[OldTimer1960]

12 minutes ago, BullBuchanan said:

Not that much. In every draft we've had over the last 5 years you can look at a team that's drafted after us and picked a superior player excluding Josh Allen.

We traded up for Edmunds who underperformed until year 5 and could have had Shaq Leonard a round later or Fred Warner 2 rounds later who have been superior since their rookie year.

We drafted Cody Ford the following year and could have had any number of superior playmakers including all pro WRs in AJ Brown and Metcalf.

Additionally we panicked after runs on players out of need. We drafted Moss as the 9th RB taken in the 3rd round, well after the value was gone. The top 6 have all been meaningful contributors and the rest have been ineffective depth. You can't do that with a 3rd round pick. Similar situation with Epenesa in a weak EDGE class in the 2nd.

That is cherry picking.  Of course in many drafts someone finds a star later, but that doesn’t make it a high probability to occur.

 

If any teams knew that the examples you cite were going to be as good as they are, they would have been picked sooner.

 

 

[Fallser]

Looking at this Bills draft list, 10 years of WOOF, is more like it...

Edited January 25, 2023 by Fallser

[Nester]

I am worried about the secondary. It was once a spot of great strength, injury has made a source of extreme weakness, the injury’s will be hard to recover from as these guys age… might need another big investment. #27 is just not the same and likely Poyer is not extended. Will Hyde be back at 75% of previous capacity? 
 

problems everywhere that can’t be drafted away with our current capital. 

[Einstein]

1 hour ago, Big Turk said:

Because that's how the salary cap and contracts work.

 

Except for the teams who the cap doesn’t seem to matter.

 

Like the Patriots for 2 straight miserable decades.

 

The real answer is that you beat the cap by drafting well. The Bengals have drafted insanely well. The Bills have not.