Democracy’s Fiery Ordeal: The War in Ukraine 🇺🇦

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

It's the "refusing to acknowledge the west's limited culpability and accusing anyone who questions anything about the glory of Ukraine as a Putin stooge" part.

 

 

That and your war profiteering.  😱 

Very limited culpability. 

 

We are all profiting off of war. Our freedom was earned, in a big part, on the battlefields of the world 

[SoCal Deek]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Very limited culpability. 

 

We are all profiting off of war. Our freedom was earned, in a big part, on the battlefields of the world 

That’s an interesting twist on it Tibs. I believe most would say that we’ve been defending OTHER PEOPLE’s freedom on the “battlefields of the world”. No? 

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

That’s an interesting twist on it Tibs. I believe most would say that we’ve been defending OTHER PEOPLE’s freedom on the “battlefields of the world”. No? 

By defending others freedoms we make our more secure. We learned that in the 1930's and again in the Cold War. Imagine if Hitler had been left alone like the isolationist wanted. Hitler with the A Bomb. Ya, we'd be real safe 

[Tenhigh]

3 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

By defending others freedoms we make our more secure. We learned that in the 1930's and again in the Cold War. Imagine if Hitler had been left alone like the isolationist wanted. Hitler with the A Bomb. Ya, we'd be real safe 

Just curious, but when do you think we should have entered WW2?

16 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Very limited culpability. 

 

We are all profiting off of war. Our freedom was earned, in a big part, on the battlefields of the world 

Progress!

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, Tenhigh said:

Just curious, but when do you think we should have entered WW2?

We should have stopped selling Japan oil and gas and aircraft engines in the early 30's after they started murdering their way through China and when Italy invaded Abyssinia we should have moved, with the Royal Navy, to blockade the Med and let no ships support the invasion. Hopefully that would of nipped it in the bud. 

[sherpa]

38 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

 I believe most would say that we’ve been defending OTHER PEOPLE’s freedom on the “battlefields of the world”. No? 

 

Along this line, as an an unintended consequence of all of this, the exposure of the gross negligence of some of our NATO allies has ben exposed and hopefully will be dealt with.

When this was exposed a number of years ago, it with viewed by the political opposition as insulting our other member nations.

 

It was nothing of the sort. The situation was so bad, especially re Germany, that there was no way it could go on.

Germany provided tanks at the onset of this, and not one was operationally capable. They had no airlift capability and a pathetic air force fighter readiness.

No tanking capability and virtually no early warning or electronic warfare capability.

Had NATO been challenged in any serious military way, the US would have borne the load in a grossly disproportionate way, resulting in far more deaths to US servicemen.

The Brits do their best, France does a bit, but Germany and Italy were virtually worthless.

Hopefully that changes.

[gobills404]

2 hours ago, Roundybout said:

Based 

You probably loved this too, didn’t you? Go back to Reddit.

 

Edited May 24, 2023 by gobills404

[All_Pro_Bills]

24 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

We should have stopped selling Japan oil and gas and aircraft engines in the early 30's after they started murdering their way through China and when Italy invaded Abyssinia we should have moved, with the Royal Navy, to blockade the Med and let no ships support the invasion. Hopefully that would of nipped it in the bud. 

The problem with your reasoning, and that used by others making the pre-emptive strike argument, is its all hypothetical Monday Morning Quarterback talk.  Would have, should have, could have.  In the moment people make decisions based on the situation at hand without the benefit of having knowledge of history or the outcomes generated by their decision or indecision years or decades later.  Like the NFL coach that makes the wrong in-game decision on 4th and goal not to kick the FG in the 3rd quarter which results in a failed 4th down try and an ultimate 2 point loss, they don't have the benefit of having knowledge of the outcome under the decision they made to help them make a different choice.       

 

There's always an assumption that removing some evil would result in nothing but positive consequences and outcomes.  Hypothetically, let's say the decision to take Hitler out was made.  Germany and Europe are saved from the savagery of the Nazi's.  And all is well, peace and prosperity.  But wait.  Without any warning or opposition, Stalin moves against all of Europe and defeats the combined Army's of Europe.  As quickly as the German's had done.  Alliances with leaders like Franco and Mussolini cement their rule.  The US enters the fight too late to change the outcome and the entire European continent is under Communist control for the next 300 years.  America never becomes the world's leading power.  Of course its all conjecture on my part.  But it is also that on yours the by always playing the military card the result will be all hearts and flowers.  Frankly, the theory is an excuse for constant aggression and absolves the people making the argument from doing any real critical thinking..  

[Roundybout]

11 minutes ago, gobills404 said:

You probably loved this too, didn’t you? Go back to Reddit.

 

I think adding a little lighthearted commentary to serious issues is good, yes. It’s just social media.

[Tenhigh]

1 hour ago, Tiberius said:

We should have stopped selling Japan oil and gas and aircraft engines in the early 30's after they started murdering their way through China and when Italy invaded Abyssinia we should have moved, with the Royal Navy, to blockade the Med and let no ships support the invasion. Hopefully that would of nipped it in the bud. 

Sans that, when?

[Tiberius]

35 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The problem with your reasoning, and that used by others making the pre-emptive strike argument, is its all hypothetical Monday Morning Quarterback talk.  Would have, should have, could have.  In the moment people make decisions based on the situation at hand without the benefit of having knowledge of history or the outcomes generated by their decision or indecision years or decades later.  Like the NFL coach that makes the wrong in-game decision on 4th and goal not to kick the FG in the 3rd quarter which results in a failed 4th down try and an ultimate 2 point loss, they don't have the benefit of having knowledge of the outcome under the decision they made to help them make a different choice.       

 

There's always an assumption that removing some evil would result in nothing but positive consequences and outcomes.  Hypothetically, let's say the decision to take Hitler out was made.  Germany and Europe are saved from the savagery of the Nazi's.  And all is well, peace and prosperity.  But wait.  Without any warning or opposition, Stalin moves against all of Europe and defeats the combined Army's of Europe.  As quickly as the German's had done.  Alliances with leaders like Franco and Mussolini cement their rule.  The US enters the fight too late to change the outcome and the entire European continent is under Communist control for the next 300 years.  America never becomes the world's leading power.  Of course its all conjecture on my part.  But it is also that on yours the by always playing the military card the result will be all hearts and flowers.  Frankly, the theory is an excuse for constant aggression and absolves the people making the argument from doing any real critical thinking..  

It's just an easy call. We help the good guys. I know you guys like Putin because he is a campaign manager of Trump of sorts, but human rights, decency and progress all call for the defense of Ukraine 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

2 hours ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The problem with your reasoning, and that used by others making the pre-emptive strike argument, is its all hypothetical Monday Morning Quarterback talk.

 

Well, when a problem comes along, you must whip it.

[Tiberius]

Yup, it's Biden's fault Russia isn't ready to make peace in their murderous invasion 

https://www.cnbc.com/2023/05/24/ukraine-war-live-updates-latest-news-on-russia-and-the-war-in-ukraine.htmlRussian President Vladimir Putin told an audience Tuesday that Russia was going through “difficult times” as its invasion of Ukraine continues, but said national pride was growing.

“Yes, Russia is going through difficult times now; things have never been easy, but, still, today we are seeing a moment of our common consolidation, with our national pride being sharpened,” Putin told an awards ceremony Tuesday, according to comments reported by state news agency Tass.

Elsewhere, the Kremlin said Wednesday that it’s premature to talk about a peaceful settlement of the conflict in Ukraine, with Putin’s Press Secretary Dmitry Peskov saying the preconditions for an end to the conflict did not yet exist.

When asked by reporters which peace proposals were closest to Russia’s position, Peskov said:

“It is premature to talk about this as long as there are no prerequisites for a peaceful settlement. The special military operation continues,” as Russia calls its unprovoked invasion of its neighbor.

[All_Pro_Bills]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

It's just an easy call. We help the good guys. I know you guys like Putin because he is a campaign manager of Trump of sorts, but human rights, decency and progress all call for the defense of Ukraine 

What do you mean "you guys"?  Critical and objective thinkers can see issues outside the box of a political ideology.    

[Roundybout]

 

[Pokebball]

3 hours ago, Tiberius said:

It's just an easy call. We help the good guys. I know you guys like Putin because he is a campaign manager of Trump of sorts, but human rights, decency and progress all call for the defense of Ukraine 

Neither are good guys, IMO

[Tiberius]

6 minutes ago, Pokebball said:

Neither are good guys, IMO

That says a lot about you 

[Pokebball]

2 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

That says a lot about you 

I own it

[SCBills]

You mean to tell me everyone lied, again…. 
 

 

[Pokebball]

I enjoyed this discussion. Some things in this interview that I didn't know.

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

 

Suddenly it's not so TOOL OF PUTIN-ish to notice some Ukrainians getting very rich

 

 

 

 

Well, knock ME over with a feather! It wasn’t that long ago that one of Tucker Carlson’s biggest failings – I mean hammer him unmercifully complaints – was that he was a TOOL OF PUTIN for having the temerity to question where billions upon billions upon billions of U.S. taxpayers dollars were going in relation to the spigot of cash headed to Zelensky and Ukraine.

 

“How DARE you?!” they cried. “Democracy is UNDER ATTACK – We must DEFEND IT AT ALL COST!!” And when he pretty rightfully asked were we defending democracy or enriching a dictator and his oligarch friends in the meantime, the sputtered indignation at his treacherous query knew no bounds. Why should there be any sort of accounting for so noble a cause? I mean, look – Zelensky lives in fatigue trousers and wooly pully sweaters – he’s practically a war hero himself! Of course those billions and bazillions are in the best and purest of trustworthy hands.

 

If they stayed in those hands. But no one could tell anyone if they did. And you sure as Schlitz weren’t allowed to ask, you spreader of Russian propaganda!!

 

A year ago May, Kentucky’s Senator Rand Paul was pilloried in the press and by both parties for putting the brakes on one of the first big aid packages to Ukraine, for simply wanting an accounting method designated to track where the billions were going. He “defied” leaders.

 

 

 

Much more at the link:  

https://hotair.com/tree-hugging-sister/2023/05/24/suddenly-its-not-so-tool-of-putin-ish-to-notice-some-ukrainians-getting-very-rich-n553041

 

.

[Tiberius]

Whatever 

[Roundybout]

 

[Tiberius]

 

[Tommy Callahan]

2 hours ago, Tiberius said:

 

interesting.  if its like the second post stated 

"This is a similar amount of explosives used against the USS Cole…"

 

Then it was fairly large attack.

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, Chris farley said:

interesting.  if its like the second post stated 

"This is a similar amount of explosives used against the USS Cole…"

 

Then it was fairly large attack.

Yes 

[Tommy Callahan]

11 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Yes 

Had to google it and it seems like their is a lot of conflicting information about that incident.

 

https://www.newsweek.com/ukrainian-drone-russian-ship-ivan-khurs-black-sea-sevastopol-crimea-1802857

 

https://www.navalnews.com/naval-news/2023/05/russian-intelligence-ship-seemingly-hit-by-ukrainian-usv/

 

 

[Tiberius]

 

[The Frankish Reich]

https://www.wsj.com/articles/wagner-chiefs-feud-with-russian-military-cracks-putins-image-of-control-488ac37

 

This is a dangerous time for Putin, and a dangerous time for the world.

Given the ineptitude and lack of morale in the regular Russian military, Putin outsourced the hard work to a thoroughly corrupt mercenary group, Wagner.

He's created a monster that he can't control now. Is Prigozhin gunning for his job as dictator of Russia? Or just trying to make Putin his puppet? It doesn't seem to be a feud orchestrated for foreign observers since there would be no apparent benefit to Putin by exposing him as weak and ineffective.

 

And what does Prigozhin think the remedy is? About 4 years of a North Korea style dictatorship.

Can't make this crap up.

 

The attack on Ukraine has accomplished two things:

- it has revealed (just like the events of the collapse of the Soviet Union 32 years ago) how dysfunctional the Russian state really is, including their much-feared military prowess. Finland, Poland, the Baltics: all of them may rest assured that the chances of being overrun by Russian land forces are basically nil.

- it has also revealed that Putin's stranglehold on Russian institutions may not be as strong as we thought. That's paradoxically dangerous in the short term: he could be willing to escalate with nuclear weapons in a desperate attempt to hold onto power, or some even more corrupt and insane Prigozhin type could either take over or begin to exert political as well as military power.

[Tiberius]

 

[SCBills]

I was hesitant to share this, because I thought that it surely must be taken out of context or edited, but it’s now trending on Twitter. 
 

If this video is accurate, my goodness…. 
 

He’s also been instrumental in this conflict as one of our many establishment provocateurs, using Ukraine/NATO-expansion as a pawn to help get to this point. 
 

Evil. 
 

 

[Warcodered]

37 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I was hesitant to share this, because I thought that it surely must be taken out of context or edited, but it’s now trending on Twitter. 
 

If this video is accurate, my goodness…. 
 

He’s also been instrumental in this conflict as one of our many establishment provocateurs, using Ukraine/NATO-expansion as a pawn to help get to this point. 
 

Evil. 
 

 

Not to want to defend Lindsey Graham but I can't say that clip doesn't seem like a very carefully selected very short clip of a longer conversation.

[Tiberius]

52 minutes ago, SCBills said:

I was hesitant to share this, because I thought that it surely must be taken out of context or edited, but it’s now trending on Twitter. 
 

If this video is accurate, my goodness…. 
 

He’s also been instrumental in this conflict as one of our many establishment provocateurs, using Ukraine/NATO-expansion as a pawn to help get to this point. 
 

Evil. 
 

 

Lol, what’s your problem with this? You think Putin’s cares his troops are getting slaughtered? 

 

 

[SCBills]

9 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Lol, what’s your problem with this? You think Putin’s cares his troops are getting slaughtered? 

 

 

I care about the innocent sons and fathers being drafted into the Russian meat grinder.  
 

No, I don’t think Putin cares at all. 
 

They are just as innocent as the slaughtered Ukrainians.  Russian citizens aren’t the ones who declared war on Ukraine.    
 

There is nothing to celebrate here.  It’s all tragic. 

[Tiberius]

1 hour ago, SCBills said:

I care about the innocent sons and fathers being drafted into the Russian meat grinder.  
 

No, I don’t think Putin cares at all. 
 

They are just as innocent as the slaughtered Ukrainians.  Russian citizens aren’t the ones who declared war on Ukraine.    
 

There is nothing to celebrate here.  It’s all tragic. 

Agreed, but those Russians are there doing a job for Putin, I have no sympathy for people pulling the triggers, firing the artillery or dropping bombs on civilians. 

[JDHillFan]

18 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Agreed, but those Russians are there doing a job for Putin, I have no sympathy for people pulling the triggers, firing the artillery or dropping bombs on civilians. 

How many innocents on both sides have to die under Joe Biden’s reign? Sad. 

[Pokebball]

23 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Agreed, but those Russians are there doing a job for Putin, I have no sympathy for people pulling the triggers, firing the artillery or dropping bombs on civilians. 

This is where many of us disagree with you. Thank you for owning your position, though. Many won't.

[B-Man]

 

 

@SCBills, Any chance of getting rid of Lindsey ??

 

 

[Tiberius]

27 minutes ago, JDHillFan said:

How many innocents on both sides have to die under Joe Biden’s reign? Sad. 

Ask Trump's buddy, Putin 

[aristocrat]

1 minute ago, Tiberius said:

Ask Trump's buddy, Putin 

Obama was putins buddy. Trump was harder and supplied more weapons to Ukraine than Obama ever did.