It's Time to Mandate Vaccines

[All_Pro_Bills]

18 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Of course they care, you're too close to this sometimes and you lose perspective.  Like it or not, everything that went before factors into the way folks look at the virus and vaccine.   Off the top of my head:

• Most folks generally don't trust politicians and the process, and the last few years have been offered a plethora of reasons to absolutely, categorically and fundamentally run the opposite way that politicians point you in.  That is irrespective of party affiliation.
• We had lockdowns for most, to the point that the police were involved, ugliness ensued, and businesses were shuttered.  Yet, mass gatherings and in some cases, riots, were encouraged and tolerated.  Interestingly, the folks involved in the protest often hit the demographic of many vax hesitant people we talk about today, and presumably a large part voted for the guy in office today.  More interesting, perhaps, in 2020 the guy in office and his partner were among prominent politicians smacktalking the vax they are being shamed for not taking now.  
• We had more outrage over that old geez who conked his noggin on the cement after he grabbed at that officer's groin then we did the hundreds of thousands (maybe millions?) of people spreading the virus near and far.  
• We had prominent politicians responsible for bringing the hammer down on non-compliant citizens openly flouting the rules and guidance coming directly from the top.  The hypocrisy was, and often is, stunning.  
• Fauci, once the face of the 'save the nation' crowd has revealed himself to be a boob, with more waffles than the local IHOP. 
• The lack of transparency on the origins of the virus, the involvement of the US in the facility where it all apparently started, the timing of the virus release to coincide with our election cycle, and the very strange lack of any major mainstream coverage or political investigation in who the %$#@ allowed the vid to escape the lab seems at face value very odd. 
• The "mandate"  has been a clusterf^ck, with Biden trying to thread the needle between looking strong, hammering the vax, and not upsetting a large portion of his base.  If the world and country is in peril, he should ask Dr Jill for the jar she keeps his nuts in and do something bold.  Instead, we get 'meh'. 

 

People pay attention and smell b*ll sh*t and react accordingly.  There are many, many reasons people lack trust in the people telling them what they need to do.  That has nothing to do with wanting to infect grannie, or the neighbor down the street, or anything else.  I think virtually any time you get "Hey, we're the government just trust us!" you're going to get push back from a large segment of the population.  Regardless of how you, individually as a scientist feel, most of the key players are categorized as 'government' fairly or not. 

Agree.  Bluntly the people running the operation are politically motivated liars that invoke "the science" when it suits their objective and ignore it when it doesn't.  The only people not figuring this out by now are the 12 guys still watching CNN all day long.  A few examples:

 

The CDC advisory committee votes 18-2 on the scope of the booster shot and the CDC director overrules them and expands the scope.  What does she know that they don't after a debate among 20 knowledgeable individual scientists and doctors performing what I expect was a detailed due diligence through a predictable and functional process they've used before?  Nothing that's what she knows.  Political BS

 

Fauci gets asked questions about natural immunity and the vaccine mandate.  He says its a good question that he hasn't really thought about.  Big fat liar.  Of course he's thought about it but the answer conflicts with his vaccine mandate push and scope so he chooses to ignore it.  More political BS.

 

Biden says the un-vaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated.  The mantra is vaccines are safe and effective so how is that possible?  So why are un-vaccinated people a threat if they work so well?  I'm still waiting for that answer.  The answer is they aren't as effective as they claim.  More political BS.  I suspect over time research will show the real truth is the vaccinated are a bigger threat to the un-vaccinated than the other way around.

 

 

 

 

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

Agree.  Bluntly the people running the operation are politically motivated liars that invoke "the science" when it suits their objective and ignore it when it doesn't.  The only people not figuring this out by now are the 12 guys still watching CNN all day long.  A few examples:

 

The CDC advisory committee votes 18-2 on the scope of the booster shot and the CDC director overrules them and expands the scope.  What does she know that they don't after a debate among 20 knowledgeable individual scientists and doctors performing what I expect was a detailed due diligence through a predictable and functional process they've used before?  Nothing that's what she knows.  Political BS

 

Fauci gets asked questions about natural immunity and the vaccine mandate.  He says its a good question that he hasn't really thought about.  Big fat liar.  Of course he's thought about it but the answer conflicts with his vaccine mandate push and scope so he chooses to ignore it.  More political BS.

 

Biden says the un-vaccinated are a threat to the vaccinated.  The mantra is vaccines are safe and effective so how is that possible?  So why are un-vaccinated people a threat if they work so well?  I'm still waiting for that answer.  The answer is they aren't as effective as they claim.  More political BS.  I suspect over time research will show the real truth is the vaccinated are a bigger threat to the un-vaccinated than the other way around.

 

 

 

 

So just to be clear, my point in the initial conversation with Oldie was that this latest iteration of people not trusting government blindly, and lining up like a Stepford wife for the jab is a natural and predictable byproduct of life.  While certainly there are people in this category, for most It has nothing to do with people not giving a #$&$ about their family and the neighbor down the street.  
 

You points, as usual, are well laid out and always interesting to read. 

[billsfan5121]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

This is the most ridiculous thing you’ve posted yet.  And that’s saying something.

Equally ridiculous.

How is it ridiculous? It’s still spreading.

[oldmanfan]

15 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

How is it ridiculous? It’s still spreading.

As far as masks, there is abundant data from both observational and laboratory studies showing that masks mitigate against the spread of droplets and aerosols, which are the main sources of transmission.  As for vaccines, I really can’t believe I need to say this yet again, but the data on that shows that they are extremely protective against getting seriously ill and requiring hospitalization or resulting in death.  The vast majority, over 90%, of hospitalized individuals are non-vaccinated.

 

Is it still spreading?  Spread slowed earlier this year, then went back up with the delta variant, and is now slowing again.  You want to try to absolutely stop the spread?  Get everyone vaccinated so the virus has no hosts within which to propagate and mutate.

 

It is truly astounding to me that there are some on this board who feel we should never have done anything and just let people die.

[JaCrispy]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

As far as masks, there is abundant data from both observational and laboratory studies showing that masks mitigate against the spread of droplets and aerosols, which are the main sources of transmission.  As for vaccines, I really can’t believe I need to say this yet again, but the data on that shows that they are extremely protective against getting seriously ill and requiring hospitalization or resulting in death.  The vast majority, over 90%, of hospitalized individuals are non-vaccinated.

 

Is it still spreading?  Spread slowed earlier this year, then went back up with the delta variant, and is now slowing again.  You want to try to absolutely stop the spread?  Get everyone vaccinated so the virus has no hosts within which to propagate and mutate.

 

It is truly astounding to me that there are some on this board who feel we should never have done anything and just let people die.

Fortunately, there is no need...While the vaccine does help, it is not that strong or long lasting...and there is really only a very specific segment of the population that seriously should consider taking it- older people, people who are immune deficient, and obese people...

 

Younger people and healthy people should be allowed to take it if they want...but there is no serious need for them to do so- especially when natural immunity will help to eradicate the virus better than the vaccine, based on scientific studies...

 

And, at no point should it ever be mandated on the population, especially with there being other remedies and ways of mitigation imo...

Edited October 9, 2021 by JaCrispy

[ALF]

The unvaccinated are stressing the hospital system and raising the cost of healthcare insurance.

[JaCrispy]

Just now, ALF said:

The unvaccinated are stressing the hospital system and raising the cost of healthcare insurance.

You know what else is stressing the hospital system? Firing healthcare workers who have been saving people’s lives the last year and a half...

 

Maybe instead of firing people, there should be an incentive to hire more healthcare staff...then there won’t be shortages...👍

 

See? We can always find solutions while still preserving our freedoms- people just have to have the will to do it instead of surrendering so easily...👍

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

Fortunately, there is no need...While the vaccine does help, it is not that strong or long lasting...and there is really only a very specific segment of the population that seriously should consider taking it- older people, people who are immune deficient, and obese people...

 

Younger people and healthy people should be allowed to take it if they want...but there is no serious need for them to do so- especially when natural immunity will help to eradicate the virus better than the vaccine, based on scientific studies...

 

And, at no point should it ever be mandated on the population, especially with there being other remedies and ways of mitigation imo...

And there are studies showing natural immunity is worse.  And there are studies indicating not everyone who gets Covid mount as strong an immune response as others.  And there are no other proven remedies.  And by inferring young people or healthy people should just allow themselves to get infected, what you are saying is you are fine that some of them will die or have long lasting complications.  
 

If you truly think the way to handle this is to play Russian roulette with people’s lives, that is incredibly sad.

[billsfan5121]

3 minutes ago, ALF said:

The unvaccinated are stressing the hospital system and raising the cost of healthcare insurance.

So are the smokers and obese. Where’s the outcry or government mandates? 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

So are the smokers and obese. Where’s the outcry or government mandates? 

Those are voluntary choices.  A viral pandemic is not.  Does that really need to be pointed out?  Seriously?

[billsfan5121]

6 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Those are voluntary choices.  A viral pandemic is not.  Does that really need to be pointed out?  Seriously?

So I can voluntarily throw my life away with poor eating habits and smoking with no exercise and take up a room in the hospital, but I cannot be concerned with a vaccine that was rushed to market? Got it

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

This is the most ridiculous thing you’ve posted yet.  And that’s saying something.

 

 

 

Every Sunday you have a televised Church service where one of the following pastors appears on TV to preach to you:

 

The 2 main ones:

 

Fauci 

Gotleib 

 

Then numerous other guest pastors.   

 

 

[oldmanfan]

2 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Every Sunday you have a televised Church service where one of the following pastors appears on TV to preach to you:

 

The 2 main ones:

 

Fauci 

Gotleib 

 

Then numerous other guest pastors.   

 

 

Since the pandemic started it appears your position has been to let the virus just spread and kill people.

3 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

So I can voluntarily throw my life away with poor eating habits and smoking with no exercise and take up a room in the hospital, but I cannot be concerned with a vaccine that was rushed to market? Got it

Billions of vaccine doses have been given with the benefits far outweighing risk.  

[ALF]

30 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

So are the smokers and obese. Where’s the outcry or government mandates? 

 

The massive tax on cigarettes  greatly reduced smoking. Obese is still a  problem. A free vaccine is a easy solution for a global pandemic

Maybe a massive increase in premiums for healthcare insurance for those unvaccinated would take the burden off those vaccinated.

Edited October 9, 2021 by ALF

[Big Blitz]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Since the pandemic started it appears your position has been to let the virus just spread and kill people.

 

 

 

 

Ok Fauci.....what do you think?  Give it 15 days?  Maybe 45?  Oh you meant 2 years?

 

 

 

Has it done anything else I'm unaware of?

 

I'm opposed to letting communism spread, yes.

 

And here in Florida, our West Berlin, mandate free Florida, somehow without those mandates the covid is gone. 

 

Amazing.

 

Did people die?  Yes.  Didn't people die in Lockdown centrals Illinois and California?

 

It doesn't matter if its 50K or 70K or 30K (all in almost 2 years is this something to fear still?), dead is dead. 

 

If "don't want people to die" is your fake goal, you shut it all down Australia style.   

 

Carry on letting "science" run the country.  I'd like the Constitution, logic, and actual data to do so.   

 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

 

Ok Fauci.....what do you think?  Give it 15 days?  Maybe 45?  Oh you meant 2 years?

 

 

 

Has it done anything else I'm unaware of?

 

I'm opposed to letting communism spread, yes.

 

And here in Florida, our West Berlin, mandate free Florida, somehow without those mandates the covid is gone. 

 

Amazing.

 

Did people die?  Yes.  Didn't people die in Lockdown centrals Illinois and California?

 

It doesn't matter if its 50K or 70K or 30K (all in almost 2 years is this something to fear still?), dead is dead. 

 

If "don't want people to die" is your fake goal, you shut it all down Australia style.   

 

Carry on letting "science" run the country.  I'd like the Constitution, logic, and actual data to do so.   

 

Thanks for confirming your desire to just let people die off.  In all your incessant ranting you have never offered one constructive thought about how to effectively deal with the pandemic, other than letting people die.

Edited October 9, 2021 by oldmanfan

[Big Blitz]

25 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Thanks for confirming your desire to just let people die off.  In all your incessant ranting you have never offered one constructive thought about how to effectively deal with the pandemic, other than letting people die.

 

 

Get the vaccine or not.  

 

The responsibility isn't the States.  It isn't yours.   It isn't mine.  It isn't your friendly neighborhood corporation.  It isn't fully compromised President CDC that changes its positions when it hears from the NEA.  

 

Chicken ***t adults can't read data but at least they had childhoods.   

 

 

 

But you go right ahead following these people straight to Venezuela 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Middle fingers straight up to these people 

[JaCrispy]

1 hour ago, oldmanfan said:

1- And there are studies showing natural immunity is worse.  
 

2- And there are studies indicating not everyone who gets Covid mount as strong an immune response as others.  

 

3- And there are no other proven remedies.  

 

4- And by inferring young people or healthy people should just allow themselves to get infected, what you are saying is you are fine that some of them will die or have long lasting complications.  
 

5- If you truly think the way to handle this is to play Russian roulette with people’s lives, that is incredibly sad.

I numbered your responses so I could best respond to them in order...👍

 

1- The corporate, left leaning msm has the most incentive in showing that natural immunity is actually worse than the vaccine, yet I have yet to see or hear any reporting on it...You would think they would have loved to jump all over it, if true...But all of the scientific reports out of  Israel, Finland, and Britain all point in the opposite direction...but if you have any of that info, I’d love to see it...👍

 

Furthermore, don’t be surprised if it was a fake report funded by the very pharmaceutical companies who want us to keep buying their product...A lot of times, that’s how “the game“ works in the corporate world- A fake report gets put out, and it makes the rounds of the msm...but like I said, I’m open to checking it out if you have it...

 

But it’s been pretty well established, that while the vaccine only produces the spiked protein to protect against a very specific part of the virus, natural immunity creates several proteins that protect against a larger portion of the virus...This is why a country like Israel (the highest vaccinated country in the world) found that people who were vaccinated were becoming reinfected at a much higher rate than those who were naturally immune...

 

2- You are actually correct about this one...the studies you are referring to further conclude that the more intense the covid symptoms, the higher the immune response...So, you are right that not all natural immunity is equal...

 

3- This does not seem accurate based on evidence I’ve seen/heard...there are several remedies/therapeutics out there, that when taken before or during the early stages of covid symptoms, can range between mitigating symptoms to stopping the virus dead in its tracks...vitamins, D, C, along with Zink, and Quercetine are medicines that help to strengthen immune responses against Covid...People have also had success with Ivermectin and the malaria drug Hydroxychloroquine, or similar combinations...there is also Regeneron and Monoclonal antibody treatments...

 

So, there is actually quite a few alternatives to vaccination if people choose to go that route...it’s not a “one size fits all” kind of thing...

 

4- First of all, I not “fine” with anyone dying, as you put it...but what I am, is a realist- You, literally, have a better chance of being struck by lightning than dying from Covid if you are young and healthy- and that’s just the truth...

 

You claim that I’m “fine” with people having long lasting complications from covid...Does that mean that you’re “fine” with people having long lasting complications from the vaccine? Of course not, and I would never accuse you of such...

 

But my thing is, if I’m going to take the lesser of two evils, for me, given my personal situation, I will bet on my immune system than some foreign substance that we have no idea the repercussions will be years from now...Everyone in life has to take their own risk, whether naturally or with a foreign substance- and it should be their choice imo...

 

5- I have heard this cliche used before and I don’t feel it’s a very strong one because vaccinated people infect people just like unvaccinated people...and you know why? Because, technically, it’s not a vaccine- but rather a therapeutic...

 

The difference? A vaccine either cures a virus/disease or makes you immune to it... the Covid “vaccine” does neither...the only thing it does is mitigate symptoms for yourself, which is what a therapeutic does...This means that you can contract and transmit the virus just like an unvaccinated person...So, to accuse an unvaccinated person of doing (playing Russian Roulette with people’s lives) what a vaccinated person “doesn’t do” seems a little disingenuous.

 

So in conclusion, because there is no perfect solution to our problems, no “all righteous medical savior” to protect us from the pitfalls and perils that we call Life, I feel it is incumbent on everyone to best choose, for themselves, what their best option is to stay as safe and secure as they can...And when we do that, we don’t have to worry as much what other people do...Good discussion...👍

 

 

 

Edited October 9, 2021 by JaCrispy

[oldmanfan]

14 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Get the vaccine or not.  

 

The responsibility isn't the States.  It isn't yours.   It isn't mine.  It isn't your friendly neighborhood corporation.  It isn't fully compromised President CDC that changes its positions when it hears from the NEA.  

 

Chicken ***t adults can't read data but at least they had childhoods.   

 

 

 

But you go right ahead following these people straight to Venezuela 

 

 

 

 

 

 

Middle fingers straight up to these people 

How many should have died to make you happy?

[oldmanfan]

4 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

I numbered your responses so I could best respond to them in order...👍

 

1- The corporate, left leaning msm has the most incentive in showing that natural immunity is actually worse than the vaccine, yet I have yet to see or hear any reporting on it...You would think they would have loved to jump all over it, if true...But all of the scientific reports out of  Israel, Finland, and Britain all point in the opposite direction...but if you have any of that info, I’d love to see it...👍

 

Furthermore, don’t be surprised if it was a fake report funded by the very pharmaceutical companies who want us to keep buying their product...A lot of times, that’s how “the game“ works in the corporate world- A fake report gets put out, and it makes the rounds of the msm...but like I said, I’m open to checking it out if you have it...

 

But it’s been pretty well established, that while the vaccine only produces the spiked protein to protect against a very specific part of the virus, natural immunity creates several proteins that protect against a larger portion of the virus...This is why a country like Israel (the highest vaccinated country in the world) found that people who were vaccinated were becoming reinfected at a much higher rate than those who were naturally immune...

 

2- You are actually correct about this one...the studies you are referring to further conclude that the more intense the covid symptoms, the higher the immune response...So, you are right that not all natural immunity is equal...

 

3- This does not seem accurate based on evidence I’ve seen/heard...there are several remedies/therapeutics out there, that when taken before or during the early stages of covid symptoms, can range between mitigating symptoms to stopping the virus dead in its tracks...vitamins, D, C, along with Zink, and Quercetine are medicines that help to strengthen immune responses against Covid...People have also had success with Ivermectin and the malaria drug Hydroxychloroquine, or similar combinations...there is also Regeneron and Monoclonal antibody treatments...

 

So, there is actually quite a few alternatives to vaccination if people choose to go that route...it’s not a “one size fits all” kind of thing...

 

4- First of all, I not “fine” with anyone dying, as you put it...but what I am, is a realist- You, literally, have a better chance of being struck by lightning than dying from Covid if you are young and healthy- and that’s just the truth...

 

You claim that I’m “fine” with people having long lasting complications from covid...Does that mean that you’re “fine” with people having long lasting complications from the vaccine? Of course not, and I would never accuse you of such...

 

But my thing is, if I’m going to take the lesser of two evils, for me, given my personal situation, I will bet on my immune system than some foreign substance that we have no idea the repercussions will be years from now...Everyone in life has to take their own risk, whether naturally or with a foreign substance- and it should be their choice imo...

 

5- I have heard this cliche used before and I don’t feel it’s a very strong one because vaccinated people infect people just like unvaccinated people...and you know why? Because, technically, it’s not a vaccine- but rather a therapeutic...

 

The difference? A vaccine either cures a virus/disease or makes you immune to it... the Covid “vaccine” does neither...the only thing it does is mitigate symptoms for yourself, which is what a therapeutic does...This means that you can contract and transmit the virus just like an unvaccinated person...So, to accuse an unvaccinated person of doing what a vaccinated person “doesn’t do” seems a little disingenuous.

 

So in conclusion, because there is no perfect solution to our problems, no “all righteous medical savior” to protect us from the pitfalls and perils that we call Life, I feel it is incumbent on everyone to best choose, for themselves, what their best option is to stay as safe and secure as they can...Good discussion...👍

 

 

 

1.  Study done in Kentucky.  It’s on the CDC website.  The Israeli study is somewhat biased because the vast majority of folks were vaccinated before the delta variant arrived.  And the stuff about pharmaceutical conspiracies would negate all the medications that have worked wonders for so many.  Or would you rather we not have them?

 

3.  No one agues that healthy living and boosting one’s own immune system is admirable.  I take zinc for colds for example.  Ivermectin and hydroxychloroquine do not have effect on Covid based on prospective randomized trials.  India has pulled Ivermectin from use, and that was the country everyone pointed to as to being the proof of its efficacy.  Regeneron I believe is the monoclonal and that is used once you have it and are hospitalized.  A basic tenet of medicine is to prevent before needing to cure.  Vaccines do that.

 

4.  You ignore all historical data on vaccines showing that in the very rare case of side effects they are found within weeks, as the small risk of myocarditis and blood clots with Covid vaccines.  You ignore the basic tenet of benefit vs. risk with medical treatments and I’ve already shown the math on that.  
 

5.  Vaccines introduce a foreign antigen into the body which stimulate an immune response, which is exactly what the Covid vaccines do.  The delta variant can still reside in the upper respiratory tract for several days and thus be passed, but vaccinated people spread it less than unvaccinated, and of course unvaccinated account for over 90% of hospitalized patients and/or death.  Vaccines do not have to offer a cure, that is not the definition.  They help prevent you from getting infected as per flu vaccines, HPV vaccines, DPT vaccines, and so on.  Some are much more effective such as the eradication of smallpox, sone require boosters such as tetanus, flu, and probably Covid.

 

Finally this is a public health problem.  It requires the public to work together to attack it.  We did so with previous such crises such as polio.  Why aren’t we doing so now?  I think the answer is obvious.

 

Good discussion for sure.  Appreciate your thoughts.

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

How many should have died to make you happy?

 

 

Whoever chooses to not get vaccinated is their business not yours.  

 

How many fully vaccinated lab rats have died due to "exposure" to unvaccinated Americans?  

 

 

What's the number?

[oldmanfan]

50 minutes ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Whoever chooses to not get vaccinated is their business not yours.  

 

How many fully vaccinated lab rats have died due to "exposure" to unvaccinated Americans?  

 

 

What's the number?

About 8,000 out of 700,000 some deaths and out of about 180 million vaccinated. 
 

You wanted millions to die because you wanted to do nothing

[Bockeye]

What main stream media will not report…

 

https://m.theepochtimes.com/mkt_breakingnews/covid-19-cases-hospitalizations-plummet-in-southern-us-rise-in-northern-states_4040470.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-10-09-2&mktids=38f375bdab04356e671057034054aff2&est=fs4N5FE32NdLT5KMeNvS6qFM3ylElUELqVkTv1bzsc8Gk0iKCM1%2F7zFRz42ITr2lTx62HX0sqw%3D%3D

[oldmanfan]

48 minutes ago, Bockeye said:

What main stream media will not report…

 

https://m.theepochtimes.com/mkt_breakingnews/covid-19-cases-hospitalizations-plummet-in-southern-us-rise-in-northern-states_4040470.html?utm_source=newsnoe&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=breaking-2021-10-09-2&mktids=38f375bdab04356e671057034054aff2&est=fs4N5FE32NdLT5KMeNvS6qFM3ylElUELqVkTv1bzsc8Gk0iKCM1%2F7zFRz42ITr2lTx62HX0sqw%3D%3D

The Washington Post, NPR, NBC, US news and World Report among others all have had stories in the past few weeks about his the infection and hospitalization rates are falling.  Nice try.

[B-Man]

 

 

UPDATE YOUR NEWSPEAK DICTIONARIES ACCORDINGLY: 

 

 

Merriam-Webster Thought Police Just Changed The Definition Of ‘Anti-Vaxxer’ To Attack Opponents Of Government Mandates.

 

 

https://thefederalist.com/2021/10/08/merriam-webster-thought-police-just-changed-the-definition-of-anti-vaxxer-to-attack-opponents-of-government-mandates/

[Big Blitz]

2 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

About 8,000 out of 700,000 some deaths and out of about 180 million vaccinated. 
 

You wanted millions to die because you wanted to do nothing

 

 

Millions?  Billions baby!  I was hoping we'd reset back to the stone age.

 

 

 

So......you sound like you oppose death.  Why do you support letting it continue to happen?  People are dying.  What are you doing about it and why are you good with death still happening?

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

10 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

 

 

Finally this is a public health problem.  It requires the public to work together to attack it.  We did so with previous such crises such as polio.  Why aren’t we doing so now?  I think the answer is obvious.

 

Good discussion for sure.  Appreciate your thoughts.

What is the obvious answer?  

[leh-nerd skin-erd]

7 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

About 8,000 out of 700,000 some deaths and out of about 180 million vaccinated. 
 

You wanted millions to die because you wanted to do nothing

Seriously, of course we have no idea what would have happened under a Clinton presidency, but let’s breathe a sigh of relief that DJT was the 45th when this was unleashed.   
 

Given how the virus has raged under Biden and Harris when the vax was literally placed in their hands, the death count in ‘21, and where we are today we would likely be in the tens of millions under their leadership.   All they truly needed to do was lead.  They had months to deal with the infrastructure, delivery system, message points, and to plan for outreach to those individuals likely pre-inclined to be distrustful of such things.  

[Orlando Tim]

7 hours ago, B-Man said:

 

 

UPDATE YOUR NEWSPEAK DICTIONARIES ACCORDINGLY: 

 

 

Merriam-Webster Thought Police Just Changed The Definition Of ‘Anti-Vaxxer’ To Attack Opponents Of Government Mandates.

 

 

https://thefederalist.com/2021/10/08/merriam-webster-thought-police-just-changed-the-definition-of-anti-vaxxer-to-attack-opponents-of-government-mandates/

We have turned people into two camps- fully trusting of our government or antivaxxer. I am a vaccinated anti vaxxer then. 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said:

Seriously, of course we have no idea what would have happened under a Clinton presidency, but let’s breathe a sigh of relief that DJT was the 45th when this was unleashed.   
 

Given how the virus has raged under Biden and Harris when the vax was literally placed in their hands, the death count in ‘21, and where we are today we would likely be in the tens of millions under their leadership.   All they truly needed to do was lead.  They had months to deal with the infrastructure, delivery system, message points, and to plan for outreach to those individuals likely pre-inclined to be distrustful of such things.  

Because you have too many idiots in this country who refuse to believe science and instead make this into a ridiculous political issue.

7 hours ago, Big Blitz said:

 

 

Millions?  Billions baby!  I was hoping we'd reset back to the stone age.

 

 

 

So......you sound like you oppose death.  Why do you support letting it continue to happen?  People are dying.  What are you doing about it and why are you good with death still happening?

I don’t.  I want everyone who isn’t vaccinated to do so.  You are against everything that could help, vaccines, masks, etc.  As near as I can tell you’d be fine with your loved ones dying as long as it met with your political views.

[billsfan5121]

3 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Because you have too many idiots in this country who refuse to believe science and instead make this into a ridiculous political issue.

I don’t.  I want everyone who isn’t vaccinated to do so.  You are against everything that could help, vaccines, masks, etc.  As near as I can tell you’d be fine with your loved ones dying as long as it met with your political views.

Here’s where I have a problem. Someone is an idiot if they are concerned about a new vaccine?

 

Ive followed this thread for a while now and I see you are in a research field and have no problems telling us all how qualified you are to make assertions about the vaccine.

 

So I am coming to you, who is a qualified researcher in the science field as someone who is concerned with the vaccine. All I ask is you answer honestly and don’t attack. I’m willing to listen.

 

So with that said, can you answer 2 simple questions.

 

1) with your acquired knowledge and years of research, can you say with 100% certainty that we can know without a shadow of a doubt that this vaccine WILL NOT cause other medical problems 10 years from now, 15 years from now, etc.?

 

2) if you can answer yes to that claim, why would it be different this time vs others when drugs were deemed safe and were approved for use by our very own government, only to be found to cause other health problems after more research and years of being in use?

[Sundancer]

22 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

Here’s where I have a problem. Someone is an idiot if they are concerned about a new vaccine?

 

Ive followed this thread for a while now and I see you are in a research field and have no problems telling us all how qualified you are to make assertions about the vaccine.

 

So I am coming to you, who is a qualified researcher in the science field as someone who is concerned with the vaccine. All I ask is you answer honestly and don’t attack. I’m willing to listen.

 

So with that said, can you answer 2 simple questions.

 

1) with your acquired knowledge and years of research, can you say with 100% certainty that we can know without a shadow of a doubt that this vaccine WILL NOT cause other medical problems 10 years from now, 15 years from now, etc.?

 

2) if you can answer yes to that claim, why would it be different this time vs others when drugs were deemed safe and were approved for use by our very own government, only to be found to cause other health problems after more research and years of being in use?

Since you frame this so childishly, here’s what I can say with 100% certainty and without a shadow of a doubt: Anyone who gets the vaccine will dramatically lower their own chance of dying and going to the hospital, and significantly lower their ability to transmit and kill other people, including those at risk and other unvaccinated folk.

 

Can you make the same statement 100% without a shadow of a doubt about unvaccinated people? No, you cannot. 
 

Stop thinking with your Twitter MD and listen to the scientists. This antivax anti science movement is strongest here in the USA. Being anti progress is nothing to be proud of. 

[billsfan5121]

38 minutes ago, Sundancer said:

Since you frame this so childishly, here’s what I can say with 100% certainty and without a shadow of a doubt: Anyone who gets the vaccine will dramatically lower their own chance of dying and going to the hospital, and significantly lower their ability to transmit and kill other people, including those at risk and other unvaccinated folk.

 

Can you make the same statement 100% without a shadow of a doubt about unvaccinated people? No, you cannot. 
 

Stop thinking with your Twitter MD and listen to the scientists. This antivax anti science movement is strongest here in the USA. Being anti progress is nothing to be proud of. 

Considering this message board is the only form of “social media” I use, your stereotype that I must be antivax and get my information from social media is false. 

Also, you say I asked childishly. You are right but I did that because I was quoting a childish reply. Is it not childish to say “too many idiots” because their opinion differs? Or is that ok because its coming from your side of a debate?
 

I have been vaccinated for everything that’s required since birth, and so have my children. I apologize that I live a healthy lifestyle and follow all protocols that have been passed down since day one, so either those protocols are keeping me and the public safe, or you need to admit they are pointless. You can choose.

 

By the way, you’re promoting the vaccine on social media in the form of a discussion board. I guess because it’s your opinion that makes it ok if I got my info from social media? 
 

You should also quit saying to trust science when science changes through research. Because science say “_____” today does not mean that holds true for eternity. I assume you know that though and are simply choosing to ignore that little bit of truth.

 

Also while you’re on your high horse caring about all of society and what prevents hospitalization, I assume you’re a big advocate for diet and exercise, seeing how heart disease is the number one killer in the US. I’m well aware heart disease isn’t contagious, but you’re telling me I should get the vaccine to lower the chances of hospitalization. Do you care about the other choices I make in life?

 

Another issue I have is the claim that the unvaccinated are the ones spreading it. Let me ask this. If breakthrough infections happen, we can say with certainty that vaccinated people can still get COVID. But we will hear that it’s far less. How can we know that? If it most often keeps you asymptomatic, how do we know how many people get breakthrough infections? It’s not as if you randomly decide to get tested for the fun of it. So if there’s only reports of __ number of people, wouldn’t it stand to reason that it’s much higher? So the vaccinated are spreading it as well.

 

Also, if you’re vaccinated, why do you care so much what someone else does? Do you worry about people who may or may not have their polio vaccine? Measles? My guess is no. But why not? 

Now you might say that some people cannot get vaccinated because of a condition. Why does this condition matter more than others? Do you only eat peanuts in your house out of fear that someone near you might be highly allergic? You are picking the vaccine to make a stand when there are likely other areas of your life that would suggest you don’t always care how your decisions effect other people.

 

Also in your rebuttal, you simply tried to turn it on me but you never answered. Can we be 100% certain the vaccine will not cause problems down the road?

 

Lastly, too many people out there go out to dinner and bars and consume alcohol, then drive home putting other people at risk. I believe we should ban alcohol because it is a risk to you and others around you. Would that be ok?

Edited October 10, 2021 by billsfan5121

[unbillievable]

We have reached a turning point in society where the people are too informed; a monumental shift where knowledge is no longer exclusive to select "teachers" and "experts" that parent the ignorant masses.

 

No longer children, limited by the constraint of not knowing how or why, we now face the the much more insidious question of "Do I want to?"

 

 

[oldmanfan]

2 hours ago, billsfan5121 said:

Here’s where I have a problem. Someone is an idiot if they are concerned about a new vaccine?

 

Ive followed this thread for a while now and I see you are in a research field and have no problems telling us all how qualified you are to make assertions about the vaccine.

 

So I am coming to you, who is a qualified researcher in the science field as someone who is concerned with the vaccine. All I ask is you answer honestly and don’t attack. I’m willing to listen.

 

So with that said, can you answer 2 simple questions.

 

1) with your acquired knowledge and years of research, can you say with 100% certainty that we can know without a shadow of a doubt that this vaccine WILL NOT cause other medical problems 10 years from now, 15 years from now, etc.?

 

2) if you can answer yes to that claim, why would it be different this time vs others when drugs were deemed safe and were approved for use by our very own government, only to be found to cause other health problems after more research and years of being in use?

First this is not a drug, it is a vaccine.  Second, no one including me has ever said that we can guarantee with 100% confidence that there will not be an untoward side effect.  In fact, because of the strenuous system that has been put in place by different regulatory agencies around the world, the very rare cases of blood clots with the J&J vaccine and myocarditis with Moderna and Phizef were found.

 

As for 10-15 years from now, let’s look at results from other vaccines first.  We have never seen side effects crop up with any at that time frame after immunization.  And if you can find one let me know.  The rare side effects that have been seen from past vaccines were all seen within weeks, as again were the rare ones with the Covid vaccines.

 

 Now let’s focus on the mRNA ones since they are “new”.  First they are not new, decades of research have gone into them but yes, this is the first clinical application.  These vaccines have the mRNA, some lipids for solubility, and salts.  Which of those scientifically would cause an incident 10 years later?  Lipids or salts ?  How?  The mRNA is translated into the spike

 protein, then degraded.  It does not alter your DNA at all and is not gene therapy, and if you are a scientist and have ever taken introductory cell or molecular biology you know this.

 

Have there been bad drugs that even after all the clinical trials came up with really bad side effects that weren’t found?  Yes.  Thalidomide is the one always quoted and after that regulatory requirements were tightened.  I sit on an FDA devices panel and the regulatory requirements are very strict.  But even with that there could be an extraordinarily rare event.  One was the COX inhibitors for as anti-inflammatories which had to be pulled within months when folks started having heart attacks.  Again this was found within months, not 10-15 years later.

 

You say you are a scientist so you should know science and medicine are rarely 100% fields, unless you are talking about things like the law of gravity.  Medicine is, as I have now said numerous times, is about benefit vs. risk.  There is no question that the vaccine benefit far outweighs the risk.  There is no question masks help alleviate droplet spread, or that social distancing helps prevent spread.  But the same folks who deny the science of vaccines deny those as well.  And it’s because of politics.  And if you’re a scientist, you should look at the data and not play political games.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by oldmanfan

[All_Pro_Bills]

40 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

You say you are a scientist so you should know science and medicine are rarely 100% fields, unless you are talking about things like the law of gravity.  Medicine is, as I have now said numerous times, is about benefit vs. risk.  There is no question that the vaccine benefit far outweighs the risk.  There is no question masks help alleviate droplet spread, or that social distancing helps prevent spread.  But the same folks who deny the science of vaccines deny those as well.  And it’s because of politics.  And if you’re a scientist, you should look at the data and not play political games.

 

The core issue with the mandates has nothing to do with science.  It's politicians and bureaucrats that are co-opting science and medicine and selectively using it (while ignoring science that doesn't support their positions) as a pretext for issuing all kinds of draconian edicts and imposing multi-tiered social restrictions and increasing levels of authoritarian rule.  And instituting some "collective" social doctrine that just doesn't exist in our system of laws and constitutional protections of the individual.  Does anyone believe these restrictions are going to go away with the COVID pandemic ending? 

 

And in the process they have done great damage to the credibility and effectiveness of science and the medical community.  The result is a large percentage of the population, some that were already distrustful, don't believe much of what is passed off as science.  Especially when so much effort is made to suppress and silence ideas and experts that express views and insights that contradict the prevailing narrative.  "Vaccines are safe and effective".  So shut up and stop bringing up any other facts or ideas.  Just do what we say or else.  Under that context why trust the science? 

 

Look at how they totally trashed Ivermectin.  What's the motivation for that?  Its not science I can say for sure.  Does it work for COVID?  Personally I can't say but there is little doubt from officials in India that it was the "cure" that suppressed their Delta outbreak.  But in the US its "horse de-wormer".  Never mind its an approved FDA drug for several serious indications in humans.  The suspicion this all creates is anything that's cheap, plentiful, and effective is a threat to the vaccine mandate and the people running policy.  So the science gets trashed. 

 

The problem isn't the vaxed or the unvaxed, its the politicians ruining science and medicine for their own objectives and their suspension of the free thinking process of discovery through the scientific method.  That's our common enemy - ignorance generated by politicians.

 

Edited October 10, 2021 by All_Pro_Bills

[billsfan5121]

33 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

First this is not a drug, it is a vaccine.  Second, no one including me has ever said that we can guarantee with 100% confidence that there will not be an untoward side effect.  In fact, because of the strenuous system that has been put in place by different regulatory agencies around the world, the very rare cases of blood clots with the J&J vaccine and myocarditis with Moderna and Phizef were found.

 

As for 10-15 years from now, let’s look at results from other vaccines first.  We have never seen side effects crop up with any at that time frame after immunization.  And if you can find one let me know.  The rare side effects that have been seen from past vaccines were all seen within weeks, as again were the rare ones with the Covid vaccines.

 

 Now let’s focus on the mRNA ones since they are “new”.  First they are not new, decades of research have gone into them but yes, this is the first clinical application.  These vaccines have the mRNA, some lipids for solubility, and salts.  Which of those scientifically would cause an incident 10 years later?  Lipids or salts ?  How?  The mRNA is translated into the spike

 protein, then degraded.  It does not alter your DNA at all and is not gene therapy, and if you are a scientist and have ever taken introductory cell or molecular biology you know this.

 

Have there been bad drugs that even after all the clinical trials came up with really bad side effects that weren’t found?  Yes.  Thalidomide is the one always quoted and after that regulatory requirements were tightened.  I sit on an FDA devices panel and the regulatory requirements are very strict.  But even with that there could be an extraordinarily rare event.  One was the COX inhibitors for as anti-inflammatories which had to be pulled within months when folks started having heart attacks.  Again this was found within months, not 10-15 years later.

 

You say you are a scientist so you should know science and medicine are rarely 100% fields, unless you are talking about things like the law of gravity.  Medicine is, as I have now said numerous times, is about benefit vs. risk.  There is no question that the vaccine benefit far outweighs the risk.  There is no question masks help alleviate droplet spread, or that social distancing helps prevent spread.  But the same folks who deny the science of vaccines deny those as well.  And it’s because of politics.  And if you’re a scientist, you should look at the data and not play political games.

 

I did not say I was a scientist. I said I was asking you the researcher and then addressed myself as someone concerned about the vaccine. And I ask questions the way I do because I am genuinely concerned about long term effects of the vaccine, not because I am antivax. But because I’m genuinely concerned, I get called antivax or an idiot by people who claim to be professionals in the field. You will never have an open dialogue about something you feel so passionate about when you belittle the very people you claim to care about. 
 

So again, I am not a scientist. I am not a researcher. However, I am not antivax nor an idiot simply because I have real concerns. I am highly educated in a non-science field so I would be more than happy to have a real conversation. Quit dismissing people and listen to the concerns. It will work much better for you in the long run. This is just a message board but we are all people, no different than your own family and friends.

 

Also, the pill to help quit smoking, Chantix, was approved (2006) and effects were not realized until last month, 15 years later, so it does happen.

Edited October 10, 2021 by billsfan5121

[Sundancer]

38 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

I did not say I was a scientist. I said I was asking you the researcher and then addressed myself as someone concerned about the vaccine. And I ask questions the way I do because I am genuinely concerned about long term effects of the vaccine, not because I am antivax. But because I’m genuinely concerned, I get called antivax or an idiot by people who claim to be professionals in the field. You will never have an open dialogue about something you feel so passionate about when you belittle the very people you claim to care about. 
 

So again, I am not a scientist. I am not a researcher. However, I am not antivax nor an idiot simply because I have real concerns. I am highly educated in a non-science field so I would be more than happy to have a real conversation. Quit dismissing people and listen to the concerns. It will work much better for you in the long run. This is just a message board but we are all people, no different than your own family and friends.

 

Also, the pill to help quit smoking, Chantix, was approved (2006) and effects were not realized until last month, 15 years later, so it does happen.

 

What's your doctor (and pretty much every doctor) recommend? It's exciting to feel more informed than the people whose job it is to care for your health. But also dumb. If I decided to take up smoking, I harm no one (for the most part) but me, ignore my doctor, and am being idiotic about my health. 

 

Pandemics are different of course than smoking and overeating because you're not just harming yourself, you're part of a chain of spread--with the inconvenience of two trips to a doctor's office to break that chain and ensure you're not burdening the medical system. The safest and most effective way to break that chain and keep the hospitals free of this added burden at the moment is vaccines. 

Edited October 10, 2021 by Sundancer

[oldmanfan]

36 minutes ago, billsfan5121 said:

I did not say I was a scientist. I said I was asking you the researcher and then addressed myself as someone concerned about the vaccine. And I ask questions the way I do because I am genuinely concerned about long term effects of the vaccine, not because I am antivax. But because I’m genuinely concerned, I get called antivax or an idiot by people who claim to be professionals in the field. You will never have an open dialogue about something you feel so passionate about when you belittle the very people you claim to care about. 
 

So again, I am not a scientist. I am not a researcher. However, I am not antivax nor an idiot simply because I have real concerns. I am highly educated in a non-science field so I would be more than happy to have a real conversation. Quit dismissing people and listen to the concerns. It will work much better for you in the long run. This is just a message board but we are all people, no different than your own family and friends.

 

Also, the pill to help quit smoking, Chantix, was approved (2006) and effects were not realized until last month, 15 years later, so it does happen.

Read what I wrote.  These are facts and data, they are what should be used to drive decision making and not unfounded hysteria.

40 minutes ago, All_Pro_Bills said:

The core issue with the mandates has nothing to do with science.  It's politicians and bureaucrats that are co-opting science and medicine and selectively using it (while ignoring science that doesn't support their positions) as a pretext for issuing all kinds of draconian edicts and imposing multi-tiered social restrictions and increasing levels of authoritarian rule.  And instituting some "collective" social doctrine that just doesn't exist in our system of laws and constitutional protections of the individual.  Does anyone believe these restrictions are going to go away with the COVID pandemic ending? 

 

And in the process they have done great damage to the credibility and effectiveness of science and the medical community.  The result is a large percentage of the population, some that were already distrustful, don't believe much of what is passed off as science.  Especially when so much effort is made to suppress and silence ideas and experts that express views and insights that contradict the prevailing narrative.  "Vaccines are safe and effective".  So shut up and stop bringing up any other facts or ideas.  Just do what we say or else.  Under that context why trust the science? 

 

Look at how they totally trashed Ivermectin.  What's the motivation for that?  Its not science I can say for sure.  Does it work for COVID?  Personally I can't say but there is little doubt from officials in India that it was the "cure" that suppressed their Delta outbreak.  But in the US its "horse de-wormer".  Never mind its an approved FDA drug for several serious indications in humans.  The suspicion this all creates is anything that's cheap, plentiful, and effective is a threat to the vaccine mandate and the people running policy.  So the science gets trashed. 

 

The problem isn't the vaxed or the unvaxed, its the politicians ruining science and medicine for their own objectives and their suspension of the free thinking process of discovery through the scientific method.  That's our common enemy - ignorance generated by politicians.

 

I said previously in this thread that India has pulled Ivermectin from its list of drugs used for Covid because it is not effective.  But here again you bring it up because you read it somewhere.

 

The scientific method is being used here and it favors the use of vaccines because the data is unmistakable.  And if the restrictions do not go away once this virus is under control, I’ll stand with you in opposition.  Until then, stop refusing to see what science tells you because you want to turn everything into a political conspiracy.

 

https://www.indiatoday.in/

Edited October 10, 2021 by oldmanfan

[SoCal Deek]

And the rage continues day after day after day. Have any of you noticed that you’ve not changed a SINGLE opinion? Like most people on here I’ve been fully vaccinated for months. For goodness sake’s we do NOT have a vaccine problem. We have a messaging problem! And the people who claim to be in charge have done a flat out horrible job of adapting the message. It’s time to get to fricking work Joe! It’s not as easy it looks sitting on some worthless Senate committee for decades on end questioning and overseeing other people. You’re in the big chair now Joe! You’re the one actually responsible for shaping AND delivering the message….and you clearly suck at it!

Edited October 10, 2021 by SoCal Deek