DPOY - Tremaine Edmunds (?!?)

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes he did, but don't bother Badol with facts if they disrupt his narrative.

 

Narratives are way more important to some guys.

 

DPOY is certainly wildly unlikely, but he's already playing very well and could certainly improve a lot more with Star in front of him again and as he gets more experience.

 

 

You mean "facts" like the NFL DPOY is only based on regular season production?    Your ignorance of this "fact" is not a defense.

 

Edmunds playoff production doesn't move the needle either...........it mostly just adds 4 more games to his very modest resume as a playmaker........4 more games to his running streaks of contests with no forced fumbles or interceptions........and adds just one sack and one TFL to his unimpressive raw numbers.

 

You win postseason honors for game changing plays over the course of a season........plays that turn the ball over or cost the opponent both a down PLUS yardage.    That's why DL and pass rushing LB's who get sacks and back 7 players who get interceptions and/or FF and RF win the award.     

 

But if you think Edmunds is an All Pro caliber MLB calling it "wildly" unlikely that he wins DPOY is a hell of a way of showing it.

 

 

 

[Protocal69]

9 hours ago, Putin said:

Why is that exactly ?? 

While Tremaine Edmunds has all the physical ability to be great he has no instinct for the position. Now if you told me he was switching to OLB then we would have a better chance.

 

Regarding Ed Oliver I feel like he has also been playing out of position. With Star coming back and having another off-season I'm more optimistic regarding Ed Oliver turning the corner than Edmunds right now but they BOTH have something to prove in 2021

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

You mean "facts" like the NFL DPOY is only based on regular season production?    Your ignorance of this "fact" is not a defense.

 

Edmunds playoff production doesn't move the needle either...........it mostly just adds 4 more games to his very modest resume as a playmaker........4 more games to his running streaks of contests with no forced fumbles or interceptions........and adds just one sack and one TFL to his unimpressive raw numbers.

 

You win postseason honors for game changing plays over the course of a season........plays that turn the ball over or cost the opponent both a down PLUS yardage.    That's why DL and pass rushing LB's who get sacks and back 7 players who get interceptions and/or FF and RF win the award.     

 

But if you think Edmunds is an All Pro caliber MLB calling it "wildly" unlikely that he wins DPOY is a hell of a way of showing it.

 

 

 

 

 

Quick, remind me. Did you say "He's never recovered a fumble and we're only counting regular season because the NFL DPOY is only based on regular season production"?

 

Or did you say, "He's never recovered a fumble"?

 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:08 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

He's never recovered a fumble.

 

 

Yeah, that's what I thought. So, desperate sad justifications aside, the "fact" that I'm referring to is the one that you fumbled. The one you totally got wrong.

 

Edmunds is generally considered a top ten guy at the position. And for good reason. That's why he twice made the Pro Bowl and it's why they exercised his fifth year option, and why exercising his fifth year option was never considered to be much of a question, except by the same few usual suspects on here.

 

The DPOY prediction is meant to be a wildly unlikely one. I certainly don't consider it to be at all likely. Off-ball LBs win DPOY, but it does not happen often. Kuechly, Ray Lewis, Urlacher, Derrick Brooks, Singletary Randy Gradishar and Jack freaking Lambert. That's not a lot. I certainly wouldn't put any money on it no matter what odds I got.

 

But is he likely to be a top ten ILB again? Yeah.

 

Is he likely to improve a lot, especially with Star playing in front of him again? Yeah. He's young, smart and athletic and the team believes in him.

 

And yeah it's wildly unlikely Edmunds gets DPOY. Except for Aaron Donald and maybe a group of six to ten other guys, it's wildly unlikely anyone else gets DPOY. You may not have noticed but they only give it to one guy out of half the NFL who are eligible.

Edited June 4, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Turk71]

On 6/3/2021 at 12:20 PM, GoBills808 said:

Where did this poor in pass coverage come from lol

Just guessing but it probably stems from the fact that he was not good in pass coverage. 

  115 passer rating when targeted.   4 tds surrendered on 60 targets 

12.5 yds per catch

7 yards after catch/rec

 He was literally one of the worst MLB in the league at pass coverage.

So that's probably where that came from.

[GreggTX]

Edmunds is a freak of nature. If the game ever really slows down for him, look out. He's not there yet, though.

[BADOLBILZ]

18 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Quick, remind me. Did you say "He's never recovered a fumble and we're only counting regular season because the NFL DPOY is only based on regular season production"?

 

Or did you say, "He's never recovered a fumble"?

 

 

Yeah, that's what I thought. So, desperate sad justifications aside, the "fact" that I'm referring to is the one that you fumbled. The one you totally got wrong.

 

Edmunds is generally considered a top ten guy at the position. And for good reason. That's why he twice made the Pro Bowl and it's why they exercised his fifth year option, and why exercising his fifth year option was never considered to be much of a question, except by the same few usual suspects on here.

 

The DPOY prediction is meant to be a wildly unlikely one. I certainly don't consider it to be at all likely. Off-ball LBs win DPOY, but it does not happen often. Kuechly, Ray Lewis, Urlacher, Derrick Brooks, Singletary Randy Gradishar and Jack freaking Lambert. That's not a lot. I certainly wouldn't put any money on it no matter what odds I got.

 

But is he likely to be a top ten ILB again? Yeah.

 

Is he likely to improve a lot, especially with Star playing in front of him again? Yeah. He's young, smart and athletic and the team believes in him.

 

And yeah it's wildly unlikely Edmunds gets DPOY. Except for Aaron Donald and maybe a group of six to ten other guys, it's wildly unlikely anyone else gets DPOY. You may not have noticed but they only give it to one guy out of half the NFL who are eligible.

 

 

The thread is literally,  and quite specifically, about Edmunds being the NFLDPOY in 2021..........an award for regular season achievement.

 

But as I said.....you can add his playoff stats and it still doesn't make him look like anymore of a playmaker at MLB.

 

Since the beginning of 2019....COUNTING THE PLAYOFFS(35 games)..... he has just 1 interception,  1 fumble recovery and 0 forced fumbles.    

 

COUNTING THE PLAYOFFS  it's been 46 games since the LB with perhaps the biggest reach in the league has forced a fumble.     

 

Last season.......COUNTING THE PLAYOFFS(18 games).........he had 89 blitz attempts with just 1 quarterback hurry!

 

He does not make plays.

 

All the rest of the noise you are making does not matter..........you aren't going to win NFL DPOY if you don't make big plays.

 

[2020 Our Year For Sure]

I find this thread title hilarious lol

[ColoradoBills]

2 hours ago, Turk71 said:

Just guessing but it probably stems from the fact that he was not good in pass coverage. 

  115 passer rating when targeted.   4 tds surrendered on 60 targets 

12.5 yds per catch

7 yards after catch/rec

 He was literally one of the worst MLB in the league at pass coverage.

So that's probably where that came from.

 

True and I'm hoping he can regain his 2019 pass defense which had a 76.3 passer rating.

 

It's a big year for him this season and everyone knows it.

[Thurman#1]

On 6/5/2021 at 7:14 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The thread is literally,  and quite specifically, about Edmunds being the NFLDPOY in 2021..........an award for regular season achievement.

 

But as I said.....you can add his playoff stats and it still doesn't make him look like anymore of a playmaker at MLB.

 

Since the beginning of 2019....COUNTING THE PLAYOFFS(35 games)..... he has just 1 interception,  1 fumble recovery and 0 forced fumbles.    

 

COUNTING THE PLAYOFFS  it's been 46 games since the LB with perhaps the biggest reach in the league has forced a fumble.     

 

Last season.......COUNTING THE PLAYOFFS(18 games).........he had 89 blitz attempts with just 1 quarterback hurry!

 

He does not make plays.

 

All the rest of the noise you are making does not matter..........you aren't going to win NFL DPOY if you don't make big plays.

 

 

 

Yes, the thread is about DPOY. The thread. Remind me, were you replying to the thread? Or were you replying to me? Now, if you were replying to the thread, how come you clicked on "QUOTE" to my post? And if you were replying to me, how come you were trying to convince me about DPOY when I had already said - in the same post you were replying to - that DPOY is wildly unlikely? Either way your reply was clueless and off-target. And factually incorrect, which is why I was laughing.

 

Facts: You were replying to me. And in the same post I'd said that DPOY was wildly unlikely. You didn't have to convince me of that. I was only laughing with BillsfaninSB about your amusing little mistake in facts. And yet, predictably, you felt the need to attempt to wiggle and squirm your way out.

 

So, let's go through it again ...

 

Quick, remind me. Did you say, "He's never recovered a fumble and we're only counting regular season because the NFL DPOY is only based on regular season production"?

 

Or did you say, "He's never recovered a fumble"?

 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:08 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The guy with the 7' wingspan hasn't forced a fumble in 42 games.    

 

He's never recovered a fumble.

 

 

Yup. You said he had never recovered a fumble. WRONG!! You said he "hasn't forced a fumble in 42 games." WRONG!! Two complete factual inaccuracies in one very short post.

 

You weren't interested in being careful about facts. You wanted to find absolutely anything bad to say about a player you clearly don't like.

 

 

 

And by the way, the way a mature, sensible person handles this by saying something along the lines of, "OK, fair enough, that was a mistake, I missed that, but ..." and continuing on. Well, two mistakes, in your case, but the idea is the same.

 

Instead you try to finagle and justify and squirm your way out of it. It's one way to operate, I guess, but it's a tactic that only makes the reader wince in sadness and understanding.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 6, 2021 by Thurman#1

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

Reading half of the thread it's clear that Tre Edmunds is one of the most polarizing players on the team.

 

I am in the don't see it camp. Watch any film review of our MLB, it's generally not pretty. Poor angles, missed tackles (over 9% missed tackles on his career), gets lost in the wash, makes no impact plays. He is a guy who tallies a lot of assisted tackles, dances around in zone defense. I call him 'dancing bear' in pass defense.

 

Looking at his physical abilities, you would think he should be an impact player, but three seasons in he is not.

 

He allowed a 113 pass rating and over 500 yards against last season, his worst of his career. Maybe he was injured, maybe the changes to D-line affected him, but he looked completely lost in pass defense.

 

No impact plays to speak of. People like to point to the goal line tackle, and it was a good play, but the type of play a highly drafted MLB should make.

 

The bar for a guy picked 16th and the 'QB of the Defense' is set very low for this guy for some reason.

 

I hope he pans out to be a play maker, I just don't see it.

[Call_Of_Ktulu]

I think Edmunds will get better as a player but I don’t think he is a top LB yet. Saying that I don’t think the Bills should pay him as a top 5 LB. We already made that mini mistake with Tre White who I feel hovers around the top 10 CB’s. Tre White is very good but he is not a shut down CB, he does his job well within the scheme of the defense as Edmunds does.

[NewEra]

3 years.  57 missed tackles and 9 TDs given up in pass coverage.  57.......

 

Get better Tremaine.  You have been blessed physically.  Don’t waste gods gift to you

[Rockinon]

The amount of negativity toward Tremaine is baffling. The coaches are high on him. He has been to two probowls. He's still very young and still improving his craft. Yes, he took a step back, coming back from a significant injury, but the negative Nancy's are getting kind of annoying. This young man is just getting warmed up in this league and like the coach has said, his best play is ahead of him. I have absolutely no reason to doubt that. None.

[NewEra]

10 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

The amount of negativity toward Tremaine is baffling. The coaches are high on him. He has been to two probowls. He's still very young and still improving his craft. Yes, he took a step back, coming back from a significant injury, but the negative Nancy's are getting kind of annoying. This young man is just getting warmed up in this league and like the coach has said, his best play is ahead of him. I have absolutely no reason to doubt that. None.

Watch him play.  He’s ok.  Just ok.  Is often lost in coverage.  Often hits the wrong hole.  Often misses tackles....57 in 3 years.  Yes, he makes some plays and accumulates some tackles.  Preston brown once led the NFL in tackles. He sucked.  Edmunds has been, at best, the 4th best lb from the 2018 draft imo.  

I really like the kid...... but let’s be real, his play at LB isn’t what we were hoping for.  He is completely underwhelming and devoid of big plays.  That’s what my eyes tell me.  If he was a 4th rd pick and was looking at a 5M contract I don’t think the talk would be the same. The “pro bowl” talk is nonsense.  He’s physical specimen that looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane more often than not. 

[Victory Formation]

On 6/2/2021 at 6:55 PM, JohnNord said:

Edmunds….I’ll eat my sandal if Edmunds is DPOY

Yeah, he has everything you would want in a LB except intelligence and instincts. Hate to sound so cruel about it, but it’s the truth.

[Victory Formation]

On 6/3/2021 at 11:17 PM, Protocal69 said:

 

Regarding Ed Oliver I feel like he has also been playing out of position. With Star coming back and having another off-season I'm more optimistic regarding Ed Oliver turning the corner than Edmunds right now but they BOTH have something to prove in 2021

I’m not sure how they’ll divvy up the snaps, but I do think Oliver will see quite a bit of time at 1T. I’m sorry to disagree with you. It will be between him and Star. Boogie and Rousseau will see substantial amounts of time at 3T. How the rotation plays out behind these guys I don’t know, but the starting/backup rotation will consist mainly of Oliver, Star, Boogie and Rousseau.

[BADOLBILZ]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Yes, the thread is about DPOY. The thread. Remind me, were you replying to the thread? Or were you replying to me? Now, if you were replying to the thread, how come you clicked on "QUOTE" to my post? And if you were replying to me, how come you were trying to convince me about DPOY when I had already said - in the same post you were replying to - that DPOY is wildly unlikely? Either way your reply was clueless and off-target. And factually incorrect, which is why I was laughing.

 

Facts: You were replying to me. And in the same post I'd said that DPOY was wildly unlikely. You didn't have to convince me of that. I was only laughing with BillsfaninSB about your amusing little mistake in facts. And yet, predictably, you felt the need to attempt to wiggle and squirm your way out.

 

So, let's go through it again ...

 

Quick, remind me. Did you say, "He's never recovered a fumble and we're only counting regular season because the NFL DPOY is only based on regular season production"?

 

Or did you say, "He's never recovered a fumble"?

 

 

Yup. You said he had never recovered a fumble. WRONG!! You said he "hasn't forced a fumble in 42 games." WRONG!! Two complete factual inaccuracies in one very short post.

 

You weren't interested in being careful about facts. You wanted to find absolutely anything bad to say about a player you clearly don't like.

 

 

 

And by the way, the way a mature, sensible person handles this by saying something along the lines of, "OK, fair enough, that was a mistake, I missed that, but ..." and continuing on. Well, two mistakes, in your case, but the idea is the same.

 

Instead you try to finagle and justify and squirm your way out of it. It's one way to operate, I guess, but it's a tactic that only makes the reader wince in sadness and understanding.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

I was only talking about what pertains to the NFL DPOY.     

 

Simple as that.

 

I was aware of his lack of impact in the playoffs as well............it's not the first time I've cited his lack of big plays..........they are just not relevant to the DPOY discussion.

 

You were ignorant of the fact that only regular season stats count toward a regular season award like NFL DPOY.      

 

That's common knowledge........ignorance is not a defense.

 

College and HS stats don't count toward it either, btw.😘

[BADOLBILZ]

On 6/3/2021 at 11:17 PM, Protocal69 said:

While Tremaine Edmunds has all the physical ability to be great he has no instinct for the position. Now if you told me he was switching to OLB then we would have a better chance.

 

Regarding Ed Oliver I feel like he has also been playing out of position. With Star coming back and having another off-season I'm more optimistic regarding Ed Oliver turning the corner than Edmunds right now but they BOTH have something to prove in 2021

 

 

Agree about Edmunds........he has played far below his talent level at MLB.

 

But Oliver has been mostly used as a 3 tech.     He's played *some* 1 tech but not much.  

 

One of the common misconceptions on this board is that the Bills always line up with a DT in the 1 tech position.   They will go to double 3 techs on obvious passing downs as well and if they play all season with the killer instinct on offense that they displayed AFTER the Arizona game they may find themselves in position to use pass rushers at both DT's more often.

[Rockinon]

43 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Watch him play.  He’s ok.  Just ok.  Is often lost in coverage.  Often hits the wrong hole.  Often misses tackles....57 in 3 years.  Yes, he makes some plays and accumulates some tackles.  Preston brown once led the NFL in tackles. He sucked.  Edmunds has been, at best, the 4th best lb from the 2018 draft imo.  

I really like the kid...... but let’s be real, his play at LB isn’t what we were hoping for.  He is completely underwhelming and devoid of big plays.  That’s what my eyes tell me.  If he was a 4th rd pick and was looking at a 5M contract I don’t think the talk would be the same. The “pro bowl” talk is nonsense.  He’s physical specimen that looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane more often than not. 

If he's so awful, why has he gone to two probowls?

[ThurmanThomasEnglishMuffin]

9 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

If he's so awful, why has he gone to two probowls?

Are you confusing 'Pro Bowls' with 'All Pro' selections? The Pro Bowl is not much more than a popularity contest/ name recognition outcome. Getting drafted in the first round will do that for you.

 

All Pros are much more prestigious and IMO carry more weight. The same types of guys that vote for HOF inductions vote for the All Pro.

 

Tyrod Taylor who has many detractors made a 'Pro Bowl'.

 

Edmunds is a guy who has regressed in pass coverage, is inefficient in pass rush, is not aware enough to recover fumbles, doesn't have the tenacity or technique to force fumbles, and has almost a 10% missed tackle rate for his career (steady 9% + each year) and gets trucked by QBs and WRs.

 

He is a tackle accumulator, a third of them are assists. So was Preston Brown.

 

I think guys down on Tre Edmunds want Darius Leonard or Fred Warner production instead of Preston Brown. With Edmunds' athletic tools and draft position he should be able to accomplish that level of play.

[NewEra]

29 minutes ago, Rockinon said:

If he's so awful, why has he gone to two probowls?

If he’s so awful?.........:

 

WHO SAID HE WAS AWFUL? 
 

learn to read.  K thanks

 

tyrod made 2 pro bowls.

 

Making 2 pro bowls doesn’t mean that the player is great.  He’s ok.  Like I said........not awful.  

Edited June 6, 2021 by NewEra

[Tcali]

On 6/2/2021 at 4:08 PM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

The guy with the 7' wingspan hasn't forced a fumble in 42 games.    

 

He's never recovered a fumble.

 

Just 3 career interceptions.

 

Only 5.5 career sacks.

 

You don't win NFL DPOY without making plays............as stated on OBL today,  getting 100 tackles is nice but SOMEBODY gets a tackle on every non-scoring play.

 

I agree that he has DPOY talent..........if he had been utilized like a TJ Watt I think he'd have been a big time playmaker..........but the position that he plays requires A LOT of instinctive play to stand out.........but with 6 seasons under his belt as a college and pro LB he hasn't shown those instincts.

 

 

 

 

i think you proved he doesnt have the talent.Other than that good take.

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, Victory Formation said:

I’m not sure how they’ll divvy up the snaps, but I do think Oliver will see quite a bit of time at 1T. I’m sorry to disagree with you. It will be between him and Star. Boogie and Rousseau will see substantial amounts of time at 3T. How the rotation plays out behind these guys I don’t know, but the starting/backup rotation will consist mainly of Oliver, Star, Boogie and Rousseau.

 

 

I greatly doubt that. They got Oliver as a 3-tech. Last year they had to use him as a 1-tech because they didn't have Star and were trying anything to fill that void.

 

I'd bet the starting rotation at DT will be Star and Harrison Phillips at 1-tech and Oliver and Butler/Zimmer at 3-tech, with maybe Rousseau or Boogie sprinkled in occasionally on 3rd and long.

 

When they had two functional 1-techs in 2019, Oliver didn't see time there. When they drafted him they made a big deal out of the fact that he'd played 1-tech in college and that was what had held him back from making more tackles and pressures.

[Thurman#1]

20 hours ago, NewEra said:

Watch him play.  He’s ok.  Just ok.  Is often lost in coverage.  Often hits the wrong hole.  Often misses tackles....57 in 3 years.  Yes, he makes some plays and accumulates some tackles.  Preston brown once led the NFL in tackles. He sucked.  Edmunds has been, at best, the 4th best lb from the 2018 draft imo.  

I really like the kid...... but let’s be real, his play at LB isn’t what we were hoping for.  He is completely underwhelming and devoid of big plays.  That’s what my eyes tell me.  If he was a 4th rd pick and was looking at a 5M contract I don’t think the talk would be the same. The “pro bowl” talk is nonsense.  He’s physical specimen that looks like Tarzan and plays like Jane more often than not. 

 

 

Sorry,man, you're not being "real." You're being wildly pessimistic. If he were seriously "often lost in coverage. Often hits the wrong hole. Often misses tackles," they wouldn't have picked up his fifth year option. He wouldn't have made the Pro Bowl twice. What you're seeing isn't congruent with what the Bills see, what the NFL sees.

 

Not only is the "Pro Bowl" talk not nonsense, but pretending it's nonsense is ignoring reality. He's a two-time Pro Bowler, that's a fact.

 

Are they still expecting him to improve? Yeah, I'm sure they are, and I'm sure they've told him, and he's made it clear he expects it of himself. But he's already very good.

 

19 hours ago, NewEra said:

tyrod made 2 pro bowls.

 

Making 2 pro bowls doesn’t mean that the player is great.  He’s ok.  Like I said........not awful.  

 

 

Please. Tyrod was a fifth alternate one year and a third or fourth the other. Edmunds was a first alternate one year and last year since they didn't play there were no alternates, yet he was selected.

 

There is no comparison there.

 

 

 

Edited June 7, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

19 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

I was only talking about what pertains to the NFL DPOY.     

 

Simple as that.

 

I was aware of his lack of impact in the playoffs as well............it's not the first time I've cited his lack of big plays..........they are just not relevant to the DPOY discussion.

 

You were ignorant of the fact that only regular season stats count toward a regular season award like NFL DPOY.      

 

That's common knowledge........ignorance is not a defense.

 

College and HS stats don't count toward it either, btw.😘

 

 

Hilarious. Do you see this, folks? He's still simply unable to admit the fact that in a post where he cited four facts, two of them were dead wrong. He still can't bring himself to simply admit it and move on. I always feel sorry for people who can't bring themselves to simply admit what happened. Doesn't stop me from pointing out the mistakes, though.

 

And as for his talking only about what pertains to NFL DPOY, that's nonsense and we now have FOUR ways to know that:

 

First, he was answering me, and I had specifically said in the same post that DPOY was wildly unlikely. No reason to argue DPOY there.

 

Second, he used the word, "never." Not the words, "almost never but he actually did at a time that is not used to calculate DPOY." He used the word, "NEVER."

 

Third, he didn't mention DPOY or anything like it.

 

Fourth, hey Badol, you were completely wrong about his forced fumbles. They happened in the regular season and thus affected DPOY rankings ... if DPOY was your reason for thinking it was OK to say that, you'd be on here now saying, "OOOOOOOPS!!! I WAS WRONG ABOUT THE FORCED FUMBLES! TOTALLY WRONG!! Those affect the DPOY rankings, so clearly it was only my mistake." And yet, weirdly, you didn't even mention that mistake. Who could have predicted that, that you wouldn't even mention it? Except anyone watching this argument.

 

And indeed you're right, ignorance is not a defense. Thus, your ignorance of the facts on both forced fumbles and recovered fumbles when you said this:

 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:08 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The guy with the 7' wingspan hasn't forced a fumble in 42 games.    

 

He's never recovered a fumble.

 

 

... it was indeed indefensible. Two assertions ... both factually incorrect.

 

Again, you said, and I quote, "He's never recovered a fumble." Now, tell me, what does the word "never" mean to you? Does it mean "only during the regular season"?

 

God, I'm just loving this. Nothing more fun than arguing with people making indefensible assertions.

Then you go on to say I didn't know that only regular season stats go towards DPOY. Also factually incorrect. I did know it. Again, I had said in the same post that I found his DPOY chances to be wildly unlikely. So why would I make the irrelevant connection to DPOY. I was only laughing at his pointing out how wrong you were when you said, "He's never recovered a fumble." Again, you used the word "never."

 

If it's negative on Tremaine Edmunds, you appear willing to both say it and back it up, whether it's false or not.

 

 

[BADOLBILZ]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Hilarious. Do you see this, folks? He's still simply unable to admit the fact that in a post where he cited four facts, two of them were dead wrong. He still can't bring himself to simply admit it and move on. I always feel sorry for people who can't bring themselves to simply admit what happened. Doesn't stop me from pointing out the mistakes, though.

 

And as for his talking only about what pertains to NFL DPOY, that's nonsense and we now have FOUR ways to know that:

 

First, he was answering me, and I had specifically said in the same post that DPOY was wildly unlikely. No reason to argue DPOY there.

 

Second, he used the word, "never." Not the words, "almost never but he actually did at a time that is not used to calculate DPOY." He used the word, "NEVER."

 

Third, he didn't mention DPOY or anything like it.

 

Fourth, hey Badol, you were completely wrong about his forced fumbles. They happened in the regular season and thus affected DPOY rankings ... if DPOY was your reason for thinking it was OK to say that, you'd be on here now saying, "OOOOOOOPS!!! I WAS WRONG ABOUT THE FORCED FUMBLES! TOTALLY WRONG!! Those affect the DPOY rankings, so clearly it was only my mistake." And yet, weirdly, you didn't even mention that mistake. Who could have predicted that, that you wouldn't even mention it? Except anyone watching this argument.

 

And indeed you're right, ignorance is not a defense. Thus, your ignorance of the facts on both forced fumbles and recovered fumbles when you said this:

 

 

... it was indeed indefensible. Two assertions ... both factually incorrect.

 

Again, you said, and I quote, "He's never recovered a fumble." Now, tell me, what does the word "never" mean to you? Does it mean "only during the regular season"?

 

God, I'm just loving this. Nothing more fun than arguing with people making indefensible assertions.

Then you go on to say I didn't know that only regular season stats go towards DPOY. Also factually incorrect. I did know it. Again, I had said in the same post that I found his DPOY chances to be wildly unlikely. So why would I make the irrelevant connection to DPOY. I was only laughing at his pointing out how wrong you were when you said, "He's never recovered a fumble." Again, you used the word "never."

 

If it's negative on Tremaine Edmunds, you appear willing to both say it and back it up, whether it's false or not.

 

 

 

 

 

Real estate in your head is going cheap.

 

Your argument is literally that I am wrong about Edmunds lack of big plays because I UNDERSTATED them?  

 

Cool.

 

I hope Edmunds wins NFL DPOY...........but he will have to make a much greater impact than he has so far.

 

It could happen...........Roquan Smith made a HUGE improvement at MLB last year.............but it's less than likely, for sure.

[DQW87]

DPOY??? I'll take top 20 in the NFL at that position at this point?  He had to of been close to leading the NFL in missed tackles if that stat is kept anywhere.  Hoping for a major improvement from him or time to move on, but no way DPOY.  

[NewEra]

3 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Sorry,man, you're not being "real." You're being wildly pessimistic. If he were seriously "often lost in coverage. Often hits the wrong hole. Often misses tackles," they wouldn't have picked up his fifth year option. He wouldn't have made the Pro Bowl twice. What you're seeing isn't congruent with what the Bills see, what the NFL sees.

 

Not only is the "Pro Bowl" talk not nonsense, but pretending it's nonsense is ignoring reality. He's a two-time Pro Bowler, that's a fact.

 

Are they still expecting him to improve? Yeah, I'm sure they are, and I'm sure they've told him, and he's made it clear he expects it of himself. But he's already very good.

 

 

 

Please. Tyrod was a fifth alternate one year and a third or fourth the other. Edmunds was a first alternate one year and last year since they didn't play there were no alternates, yet he was selected.

 

There is no comparison there.

 

 

 

It’s what I see.   I’m not the only one.  Everyone sees his potential and drools.  His potential props him up and into the every top 10 list he’s been on.  You said Edmunds is universally seen as a top 10 LB, meanwhile he was listed in the top 10 of 2 of the 10 or so lists I found.  Both lists he was number 10.  The others had him 14-20 (pff had him 23 iirc).  
 

57 missed tackles......no comment.  
 

9 TDs allowed.  No comment.  
 

you say that Edmunds wouldn’t have had his 5th year option if they didn’t think he was worth it.  His potential is worth it.  Letting him go and getting nothing in return after trading up for him would’ve been questionable.  I was hoping they’d pick up his option.  I don’t think he’s bad, but everything that I’ve said about him, I stand by.  He often misses tackles.  He’s often beat in coverage.  He often fills the wrong hole.  You can think that this is wrong because McB picked up his option, but it doesn’t make you correct.  McD started peterman. Everyone makes mistakes.  Just because they make a decision, it doesn’t mean that it’s the correct decision.  I trust McB and think they are a top 3 duo.....but I also believe that they can make mistakes too. That said, I don’t think they made a mistake picking up his option.  Edmunds is a part of their culture, a team captain and still very young with immense upside......that’s why his option was picked up. Not because he doesn’t miss tackles, holes or give up TDs.  
 

 

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

22 hours ago, BADOLBILZ said:

 

 

 

Real estate in your head is going cheap.

 

Your argument is literally that I am wrong about Edmunds lack of big plays because I UNDERSTATED them?  

 

Cool.

 

I hope Edmunds wins NFL DPOY...........but he will have to make a much greater impact than he has so far.

 

It could happen...........Roquan Smith made a HUGE improvement at MLB last year.............but it's less than likely, for sure.

 

 

 

More typical stuff for you, man. If you're losing the argument, go straight for the straw man, mis-state the other guy's argument and destroy what you said while ignoring what he actually said.

 

Yet again, here specifically is what I said ... first, he's unlikely to win DPOY, as is everybody in the league outside of five or six favorites.

 

And that you are so very willing to believe absolutely anything negative about Tremaine Edmunds that you will say things that are completely and utterly wrong and simply not check them because they're negative about him, so they seem right.

 

Remember, this all started with something I said to someone else, "Don't bother Badol with facts when they disrupt his narrative." That's what you felt the need to reply to. I wasn't talking to you, although I was certainly chuckling at your post. And you jumped in to justify, wiggle and squirm. And you still haven't even responded in any way to the fact that you said he'd zero forced fumbles which was simply wrong. Two complete mistakes. You felt the need to confront me about what I'd said, and yet now you keep trying to change the subject and use straw men.

 

You said two things about the guy that are demonstrably wrong, absolutely unfactual, and yet you're simply unable to just admit this and move on. Again, here's what you said:

 

On 6/3/2021 at 8:08 AM, BADOLBILZ said:

 

The guy with the 7' wingspan hasn't forced a fumble in 42 games.    

 

He's never recovered a fumble.

 

 

... and there is no defense of saying it. Cue the squirming and the justifications.

 

 

 

And by the way, real estate in my head is indeed cheap. That's what happens when instead of going with your prejudices and ignoring all evidence that shows you're wrong you simply look at what the evidence shows and make that your opinion. You let the evidence point the way. That way, you don't have to worry about how to squirm and justify and writhe and use straw man arguments because you're not willing to admit when you're wrong. You should maybe try it sometime.

Edited June 8, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

18 hours ago, NewEra said:

It’s what I see.   I’m not the only one.  Everyone sees his potential and drools.  His potential props him up and into the every top 10 list he’s been on.  You said Edmunds is universally seen as a top 10 LB, meanwhile he was listed in the top 10 of 2 of the 10 or so lists I found.  Both lists he was number 10.  The others had him 14-20 (pff had him 23 iirc).  
 

57 missed tackles......no comment.  
 

9 TDs allowed.  No comment.  
 

you say that Edmunds wouldn’t have had his 5th year option if they didn’t think he was worth it.  His potential is worth it.  Letting him go and getting nothing in return after trading up for him would’ve been questionable.  I was hoping they’d pick up his option.  I don’t think he’s bad, but everything that I’ve said about him, I stand by.  He often misses tackles.  He’s often beat in coverage.  He often fills the wrong hole.  You can think that this is wrong because McB picked up his option, but it doesn’t make you correct.  McD started peterman. Everyone makes mistakes.  Just because they make a decision, it doesn’t mean that it’s the correct decision.  I trust McB and think they are a top 3 duo.....but I also believe that they can make mistakes too. That said, I don’t think they made a mistake picking up his option.  Edmunds is a part of their culture, a team captain and still very young with immense upside......that’s why his option was picked up. Not because he doesn’t miss tackles, holes or give up TDs.  
 

 

 

It's what you see .. fair enough. You're not the only one. Very true ... there are indeed a very small group of people who see what you do. The huge majority think you're wrong, and that majority includes Beane and McDermott, not to mention the Ravens offense, as Daymond Talbot reported recently that they built their offensive strategy around trying to deal with Tremaine Edmunds.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-air-raid-hour-draft-recap-w-damond-talbot/id1431321970?i=1000519982980

 

It's not potential that props up Edmunds on these lists, that's nonsense. People making these lists don't give a crap about potential, except in draftees and such.

 

Nonsense again that they give a guy a fifth-year option on potential, pure nonsense. If they felt he wasn't yet worth the money, they'd have turned it down and if he improved a lot this year they'd have had plenty of opportunity to sign him again anyway. You sign a guy to his fifth-year option because you believe that doing so gets him cheaper than you would otherwise be able to do in his fifth year.

 

And no, I did not say he was a top ten LB. I said he was top ten at his position. His position could variously be called ILB, MLB, whatever. The Pro Bowl calls it ILB.  Those numbers you're referring to ... 14 - 23, and PFF having him at 23 ... those are against all LBs. And that is in a year when he had these problems:

 

Badly injured shoulder through most of the first half of the season ... no comment.

 

Playing in a defense which requires a space eater to allow the LBs to run free, but Lotulelei opted out ... no comment.

 

The bottom line is that when you differ with Beane, McDermott, Frazier and the Bills about how good a Buffalo Bill defender is playing, it's not likely them that are off-target. And yes, McDermott made a mistake and started Peterman. Remind me, did McDermott have Peterman starting for 36 games? Did McDermott pick up Peterman's fifth year option? Were the offenses Peterman called the signals for #2 in his rookie year, #3 in his second year and #14 and improved a lot at the end of the year in a pandemic year with no real offseason in his third year?  McDermott doesn't stick with his mistakes. He's willing to change his mind.

 

 

 

 

Edited June 8, 2021 by Thurman#1

[NewEra]

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

It's what you see .. fair enough. You're not the only one. Very true ... there are indeed a very small group of people who see what you do. The huge majority think you're wrong, and that majority includes Beane and McDermott, not to mention the Ravens offense, as Daymond Talbot reported recently that they built their offensive strategy around trying to deal with Tremaine Edmunds.

 

https://podcasts.apple.com/us/podcast/the-air-raid-hour-draft-recap-w-damond-talbot/id1431321970?i=1000519982980

 

It's not potential that props up Edmunds on these lists, that's nonsense. People making these lists don't give a crap about potential, except in draftees and such.

 

Nonsense again that they give a guy a fifth-year option on potential, pure nonsense. If they felt he wasn't yet worth the money, they'd have turned it down and if he improved a lot this year they'd have had plenty of opportunity to sign him again anyway. You sign a guy to his fifth-year option because you believe that doing so gets him cheaper than you would otherwise be able to do in his fifth year.

 

And no, I did not say he was a top ten LB. I said he was top ten at his position. His position could variously be called ILB, MLB, whatever. The Pro Bowl calls it ILB.  Those numbers you're referring to ... 14 - 23, and PFF having him at 23 ... those are against all LBs. And that is in a year when he had these problems:

 

Badly injured shoulder through most of the first half of the season ... no comment.

 

Playing in a defense which requires a space eater to allow the LBs to run free, but Lotulelei opted out ... no comment.

 

The bottom line is that when you differ with Beane, McDermott, Frazier and the Bills about how good a Buffalo Bill defender is playing, it's not likely them that are off-target. And yes, McDermott made a mistake and started Peterman. Remind me, did McDermott have Peterman starting for 36 games? Did McDermott pick up Peterman's fifth year option? Were the offenses Peterman called the signals for #2 in his rookie year, #3 in his second year and #14 and improved a lot at the end of the year in a pandemic year with no real offseason in his third year?  McDermott doesn't stick with his mistakes. He's willing to change his mind.

 

 

 

 

In your opinion.  You’d like to think that It’s just a small group that feels that way.  The entire crew that I watch Bills games with feel the same way. Hasn’t lived up to his draft selection of 16th overall.  He’s just an ok LB that makes a lot of mistakes (as evidenced by 57 missed tackles in 3 years).   Hasn’t been good in coverage (as evidenced by giving up 9 passing tds in his career and 113 passer rating against last season). Doesn’t make big play (as evidenced by watching the games, his lack of FF, FR, INTs).  
 

Regarding Beane and McD......in their positions, they can’t say the things that I just said about him. If they wholeheartedly feel the same way about him, they would say exactly what they’re saying right now, McD especially.  It’s what he does.  If you think that picking up his 5th year option means that they think he’s been a great player, I think that’s a bit naive.  He’s an incredible talent that was drafted because of upside.  He played hurt in 2020 and that may have led to his regression from 2019.  His ceiling, if he can ever figure out how to play MLB at a high level, is among the highest we’ve ever seen.  He’s a team captain and a building block of the team.   You say that I’m in a small group that feels this way..... yet I would have picked up his 5th year option as well.  Not because of his play in 2020, but because he’s a great kid and a hard worker with all pro potential. I believe he can still be a great player.  He’s just not great right now. 
 

I just start plenty of reasons they picked up his 5th year option, not just upside.  You’re acting as if the only reason his option was picked up is because they think he’s great.  That.....is nonsense.  
 

did Edmunds play as bad as Peterman?  No.    Not even close.  Peterman is quite literally the worst qB in nfl history.  And McD made the decision to continue to start him after proving he’s the worst ever.  Edmunds isn’t bad.   Like I said.....over and over and over......Tremaine isn’t terrible.  It’s as if you see red when I say he makes mistakes, misses tackles, get beat in coverage, fills the wrong gap.  He does all of these things.  I’ve given you stats that back this up. @BADOLBILZhas given stats to back this up.   Every player does these things from time to time. Pro bowlers usually don’t do it as much as Edmunds.  I never said he was bad.  I said that he’s an ok LB that needs to improve.
 

Everyone knows that he regressed from 2019.  He was pretty good that season.  Maybe it’s because of injury.  Maybe it’s because we lacked a true 1T.   I’ve stated that in the past. Maybe the lack of 1T + injuries + his lack of great MLB instincts made him look worse in 2020 than he really is.  That’s all possible and I’ve stated as such several times.  I’m going off of what I saw last season.......and you’re disputing what I saw.  You’re disputing what  several people are telling me they saw.  All because he’s still our starting MLB and he had his option picked up.  

 

did he not miss a lot of tackles?  
did he not give up a bunch of TDs?

did he not take the wrong gap several times?

 

you’re telling me that this didn’t happen?  It did.  It’s been proven.  He was not a very good LB in 2020.  Just ok. He has the ability to improve. Now we see if he does.  

[Thurman#1]

On 6/9/2021 at 12:49 AM, NewEra said:

In your opinion.  You’d like to think that It’s just a small group that feels that way.  The entire crew that I watch Bills games with feel the same way. Hasn’t lived up to his draft selection of 16th overall.  He’s just an ok LB that makes a lot of mistakes (as evidenced by 57 missed tackles in 3 years).   Hasn’t been good in coverage (as evidenced by giving up 9 passing tds in his career and 113 passer rating against last season). Doesn’t make big play (as evidenced by watching the games, his lack of FF, FR, INTs).  
 

Regarding Beane and McD......in their positions, they can’t say the things that I just said about him. If they wholeheartedly feel the same way about him, they would say exactly what they’re saying right now, McD especially.  It’s what he does.  If you think that picking up his 5th year option means that they think he’s been a great player, I think that’s a bit naive.  He’s an incredible talent that was drafted because of upside.  He played hurt in 2020 and that may have led to his regression from 2019.  His ceiling, if he can ever figure out how to play MLB at a high level, is among the highest we’ve ever seen.  He’s a team captain and a building block of the team.   You say that I’m in a small group that feels this way..... yet I would have picked up his 5th year option as well.  Not because of his play in 2020, but because he’s a great kid and a hard worker with all pro potential. I believe he can still be a great player.  He’s just not great right now. 
 

I just start plenty of reasons they picked up his 5th year option, not just upside.  You’re acting as if the only reason his option was picked up is because they think he’s great.  That.....is nonsense.  
 

did Edmunds play as bad as Peterman?  No.    Not even close.  Peterman is quite literally the worst qB in nfl history.  And McD made the decision to continue to start him after proving he’s the worst ever.  Edmunds isn’t bad.   Like I said.....over and over and over......Tremaine isn’t terrible.  It’s as if you see red when I say he makes mistakes, misses tackles, get beat in coverage, fills the wrong gap.  He does all of these things.  I’ve given you stats that back this up. @BADOLBILZhas given stats to back this up.   Every player does these things from time to time. Pro bowlers usually don’t do it as much as Edmunds.  I never said he was bad.  I said that he’s an ok LB that needs to improve.
 

Everyone knows that he regressed from 2019.  He was pretty good that season.  Maybe it’s because of injury.  Maybe it’s because we lacked a true 1T.   I’ve stated that in the past. Maybe the lack of 1T + injuries + his lack of great MLB instincts made him look worse in 2020 than he really is.  That’s all possible and I’ve stated as such several times.  I’m going off of what I saw last season.......and you’re disputing what I saw.  You’re disputing what  several people are telling me they saw.  All because he’s still our starting MLB and he had his option picked up.  

 

did he not miss a lot of tackles?  
did he not give up a bunch of TDs?

did he not take the wrong gap several times?

 

you’re telling me that this didn’t happen?  It did.  It’s been proven.  He was not a very good LB in 2020.  Just ok. He has the ability to improve. Now we see if he does.  

 

 

The reason I think it's just a small group who feels that way ... is that It is just a small group that feels that way. Again, he was a Pro Bowler. Again, the Ravens built their game plan around doing their best to nullify Edmunds. It really is just a small group.

 

All you have to do is google best LB lists.

 

https://athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-linebacker-rankings   16th best LB. Not 16th best ILB, 16th best LB

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-linebacker-rankings-entering-2021-nfl-season   PFF 24th best LB overall.

 

https://fftoday.com/rankings/playerrank.php?o=2&PosID=60&LeagueID=1&order_by=Rank&sort_order=ASC&cur_page=1  15th best LB overall

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/the-top-25-linebackers-in-the-nfl/  Pro Football Network 11th best LB overall

 

Those are just the first four I found. It really is just a small group who think what you do.

 

And I'm sorry, but the whole "they can't say what they really think" thing is flat-out nonsense, EVERY SINGLE TIME it's said. That's just a way to poorly attempt to justify disagreeing with someone who knows a ton more (let me clarify, the people who know a ton more than you are McDermott and Beane and Frazier.) It's nonsense that they can't express dis-satisfaction, just simply observably wrong.

 

I mean, clearly they can't say, "OK, the guy stinks and will never amount to anything." A guy would never play for you again. But there are a million ways of gently saying you're not satisfied. Look at what they said about the TE room last year, that nobody feared them. That's one example, but there are tons more. When the coaches rave about someone, they mean it. When they say, "Well, he gives 100%, we love his attitude," and that's where it stops, yeah, they likely aren't thrilled. That's not what they do with Tremaine, they rave.

 

More, they gave him the fifth year option. There's only one good reason to do that. Because you think it's a good financial decision. You don't have to do it to keep the guy, you can turn it down and still re-sign him the next year. If Tremaine wasn't worth it, they wouldn't have done it.

 

And yes, you and Badol have given me stats to back it up, but you haven't shown how those stats you've given compare to similar stats to anybody. Yeah, he gave up some tackles and TDs over the course of three years of playing every game, including his rookie year and a year when he spent the first half of the year with a shoulder injury that prevented him from playing like his usual self. How did those numbers stack up? Just as an example, you said he allowed nine TDs over three years. OK, well, the Bills allowed 118 TDs over those three years. So if you just divide up those 118 by 11 guys on the field, you get that he allowed less than his share. Now, do MLB/ILBs usually allow 1/11th? Or, as I would guess, more? Until we get a lot more in depth and comparative numbers, they don't mean much.

 

Agreed that he backslid last year ... again, he was injured the first six or seven weeks and the defense didn't work nearly as well without a space eater. Still, the last half of the year he was playing much better, which is why he made the Pro Bowl.

 

We do have some common ground, you say he's not playing great now. Hey, fair enough. I agree. Way better than "OK," though. He's playing very well.

Edited June 10, 2021 by Thurman#1

[NewEra]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

The reason I think it's just a small group who feels that way ... is that It is just a small group that feels that way. Again, he was a Pro Bowler. Again, the Ravens built their game plan around doing their best to nullify Edmunds. It really is just a small group.

 

All you have to do is google best LB lists.

 

https://athlonsports.com/nfl/nfl-linebacker-rankings   16th best LB. Not 16th best ILB, 16th best LB

 

https://www.pff.com/news/nfl-linebacker-rankings-entering-2021-nfl-season   PFF 24th best LB overall.

 

https://fftoday.com/rankings/playerrank.php?o=2&PosID=60&LeagueID=1&order_by=Rank&sort_order=ASC&cur_page=1  15th best LB overall

 

https://www.profootballnetwork.com/the-top-25-linebackers-in-the-nfl/  Pro Football Network 11th best LB overall

 

Those are just the first four I found. It really is just a small group who think what you do.

 

And I'm sorry, but the whole "they can't say what they really think" thing is flat-out nonsense, EVERY SINGLE TIME it's said. That's just a way to poorly attempt to justify disagreeing with someone who knows a ton more (let me clarify, the people who know a ton more than you are McDermott and Beane and Frazier.) It's nonsense that they can't express dis-satisfaction, just simply observably wrong.

 

I mean, clearly they can't say, "OK, the guy stinks and will never amount to anything." A guy would never play for you again. But there are a million ways of gently saying you're not satisfied. Look at what they said about the TE room last year, that nobody feared them. That's one example, but there are tons more. When the coaches rave about someone, they mean it. When they say, "Well, he gives 100%, we love his attitude," and that's where it stops, yeah, they likely aren't thrilled. That's not what they do with Tremaine, they rave.

 

More, they gave him the fifth year option. There's only one good reason to do that. Because you think it's a good financial decision. You don't have to do it to keep the guy, you can turn it down and still re-sign him the next year. If Tremaine wasn't worth it, they wouldn't have done it.

 

And yes, you and Badol have given me stats to back it up, but you haven't shown how those stats you've given compare to similar stats to anybody. Yeah, he gave up some tackles and TDs over the course of three years of playing every game, including his rookie year and a year when he spent the first half of the year with a shoulder injury that prevented him from playing like his usual self. How did those numbers stack up? Just as an example, you said he allowed nine TDs over three years. OK, well, the Bills allowed 118 TDs over those three years. So if you just divide up those 118 by 11 guys on the field, you get that he allowed less than his share. Now, do MLB/ILBs usually allow 1/11th? Or, as I would guess, more? Until we get a lot more in depth and comparative numbers, they don't mean much.

 

Agreed that he backslid last year ... again, he was injured the first six or seven weeks and the defense didn't work nearly as well without a space eater. Still, the last half of the year he was playing much better, which is why he made the Pro Bowl.

 

We do have some common ground, you say he's not playing great now. Hey, fair enough. I agree. Way better than "OK," though. He's playing very well.

Agree to disagree. 
 

I’ve spent too much of my time talking bad about a player that I like.....but I just don’t think is “very good”.  He ok in my book, 2 Pro Bowls and one teams game plan aside.    

[Royale with Cheese]

On 6/7/2021 at 8:17 AM, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Hilarious. Do you see this, folks? He's still simply unable to admit the fact that in a post where he cited four facts, two of them were dead wrong. He still can't bring himself to simply admit it and move on. I always feel sorry for people who can't bring themselves to simply admit what happened. Doesn't stop me from pointing out the mistakes, though.

 

And as for his talking only about what pertains to NFL DPOY, that's nonsense and we now have FOUR ways to know that:

 

First, he was answering me, and I had specifically said in the same post that DPOY was wildly unlikely. No reason to argue DPOY there.

 

Second, he used the word, "never." Not the words, "almost never but he actually did at a time that is not used to calculate DPOY." He used the word, "NEVER."

 

Third, he didn't mention DPOY or anything like it.

 

Fourth, hey Badol, you were completely wrong about his forced fumbles. They happened in the regular season and thus affected DPOY rankings ... if DPOY was your reason for thinking it was OK to say that, you'd be on here now saying, "OOOOOOOPS!!! I WAS WRONG ABOUT THE FORCED FUMBLES! TOTALLY WRONG!! Those affect the DPOY rankings, so clearly it was only my mistake." And yet, weirdly, you didn't even mention that mistake. Who could have predicted that, that you wouldn't even mention it? Except anyone watching this argument.

 

And indeed you're right, ignorance is not a defense. Thus, your ignorance of the facts on both forced fumbles and recovered fumbles when you said this:

 

 

... it was indeed indefensible. Two assertions ... both factually incorrect.

 

Again, you said, and I quote, "He's never recovered a fumble." Now, tell me, what does the word "never" mean to you? Does it mean "only during the regular season"?

 

God, I'm just loving this. Nothing more fun than arguing with people making indefensible assertions.

Then you go on to say I didn't know that only regular season stats go towards DPOY. Also factually incorrect. I did know it. Again, I had said in the same post that I found his DPOY chances to be wildly unlikely. So why would I make the irrelevant connection to DPOY. I was only laughing at his pointing out how wrong you were when you said, "He's never recovered a fumble." Again, you used the word "never."

 

If it's negative on Tremaine Edmunds, you appear willing to both say it and back it up, whether it's false or not.

 

 

 

[Thurman#1]

12 hours ago, NewEra said:

Agree to disagree. 
 

I’ve spent too much of my time talking bad about a player that I like.....but I just don’t think is “very good”.  He ok in my book, 2 Pro Bowls and one teams game plan aside.    

 

 

Fair enough.

 

But again, very few people agree with you, and pretty much all of them are Bills fans. 

 

To believe this you have to throw out more than just the 2 Pro Bowls and one (excellent) team's game plan. You also have to throw out pretty much every LB ranking out there.

 

If you're willing to do that, your choice, fair enough.

 

Myself, I make my evaluations not by ignoring data and facts with which I disagree, but precisely by looking at as many facts, as much data as I can, then looking at context, and then taking my evaluations based on everything.

 

When I first saw the "facts" you and Badol presented, I went looking for context. I wanted to find out what those numbers meant. I wanted to find out how those numbers compared to other LBs over a 3-year period, and various other kinds of context. I couldn't find anything. I am not surprised you couldn't provide any context, but I hoped you would. I'd love to see the context for them.

 

Without context, those numbers are like saying that in baseball, Batter X had 250 hits and 17 triples over the past three seasons. That doesn't tell you much without knowing much more. How many at-bats did he have? What were his power numbers? Walks? You have to know more to make those numbers useful.

 

Same with the numbers you and Badol produced. 

 

When you look at all the facts, the rankings being near-unanimous, the fact that the coaches love him and paid him his fifth-year option, how well the defense has done during those three years, and the fact that the Ravens, the only team we know defensive specifics about treated Edmunds as the key to their game plan, by far the most obvious conclusion is that he's playing very well. Far better than OK, not reaching the level you'd call great.

 

You want to just push "aside" 2 Pro Bowls, one game plan, the fact that they gave picked up his option ... you're limiting your ability to understand the situation, I would argue. But that's your business. 

 

Good luck to you, and see you around the boards.

Edited June 11, 2021 by Thurman#1

[Richard Noggin]

Is it possible, @Thurman#1, that citing the NFL's most one-dimensional offense's plan for attacking the Bills D, is not a super convincing line of argument? Is it possible that if a one-dimensional offense like Baltimore's decided to focus their attack on Edmunds, then maybe they viewed Edmunds as a liability they could exploit? And while the Bills D played well in that game, isn't it also possible that the one-dimensional quality of the Ravens offense might have allowed Edmunds to be more decisive and therefore effective? It's become a playoff theme (diminishing returns) for Baltimore with Jackson at QB, hasn't it? I mean, how good did our MLB look against Indy and KC in contrast? Playing against teams with the very real threat of offensive balance might be better indicators of an MLB's real value. 

 

I don't hate Edmunds at all, but I do see an elite athlete potentially playing out of position with respect to pre-snap processing and post-snap impact plays. 

 

I did NOT yet listen to the podcast referencing Baltimore's offensive approach to playing the Bills D, for the record.

[NewEra]

8 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Fair enough.

 

But again, very few people agree with you, and pretty much all of them are Bills fans. 

 

To believe this you have to throw out more than just the 2 Pro Bowls and one (excellent) team's game plan. You also have to throw out pretty much every LB ranking out there.

 

If you're willing to do that, your choice, fair enough.

 

Myself, I make my evaluations not by ignoring data and facts with which I disagree, but precisely by looking at as many facts, as much data as I can, then looking at context, and then taking my evaluations based on everything.

 

When I first saw the "facts" you and Badol presented, I went looking for context. I wanted to find out what those numbers meant. I wanted to find out how those numbers compared to other LBs over a 3-year period, and various other kinds of context. I couldn't find anything. I am not surprised you couldn't provide any context, but I hoped you would. I'd love to see the context for them.

 

Without context, those numbers are like saying that in baseball, Batter X had 250 hits and 17 triples over the past three seasons. That doesn't tell you much without knowing much more. How many at-bats did he have? What were his power numbers? Walks? You have to know more to make those numbers useful.

 

Same with the numbers you and Badol produced. 

 

When you look at all the facts, the rankings being near-unanimous, the fact that the coaches love him and paid him his fifth-year option, how well the defense has done during those three years, and the fact that the Ravens, the only team we know defensive specifics about treated Edmunds as the key to their game plan, by far the most obvious conclusion is that he's playing very well. Far better than OK, not reaching the level you'd call great.

 

You want to just push "aside" 2 Pro Bowls, one game plan, the fact that they gave picked up his option ... you're limiting your ability to understand the situation, I would argue. But that's your business. 

 

Good luck to you, and see you around the boards.

I don’t look at a lot of data.  But you do, so, show me the data that says “very few people agree with me”.  The fact that all the people that agree with me (a statement that you didn’t back up with data. a list in which he’s the 24th rated off ball Lb proves that it’s not only bills fans that agree with me.  24th isn’t a good thing) are all bills fans would show me that “people who actually watch bills games” agree with me. as opposed to people who don’t watch every Bills game.  But I’ve yet to see any data to support you claim.  

 

 I KNOW that Jordan Poyer was twice the player that Edmunds was last year......yet he didn’t make the pro bowl.   That shows me that making the pro bowl doesn’t mean Jack. I watched Ruben brown get voted to 8 straight pro bowls.  His play wasn’t worthy of 8 straight pro bowls, the first few he was.   In many ways (not all ways), it’s a popularity contest.  It always has been.  
 

Edmunds PFF Score- 48- pro bowl.  Pretty much every “ok” MLB in the league had a higher rating.

poyer- PFF score- 78- no pro bowl.  
Tyrann Mathieu- pff score 64-  pro bowl

 

I’m about to go to work, so I don’t have time to post Poyers “data” compared to tyrann, but you can look it up.  Easy.  Poyer had him across the board except ints. Not to mention that Poyer destroys the ball carrier when he hits them.  He was a true pro bowler last season.  Yet he’s not as popular.  
 

which AFC Lbs are perennial pro bowlers every season?  I’ll wait.  Edmunds has been tagged as that guy.  You said at some point that there was great Young Lb play in the afc...... other than Leonard, who do you speak of?  Which of these player have made the pro bowl?  Then look at their “data” and compare them to Edmunds 2020 season.  Alexander Johnson, Cunningham, Littleton, McKinney,Schobert, Jack?  Cunningham is pretty good.....I wouldn’t even consider him “very good”.  I wouldn’t consider any of those Lbs to be “very good”.  Edmunds included.  
 

off to work. 
 

8 hours ago, Richard Noggin said:

Is it possible, @Thurman#1, that citing the NFL's most one-dimensional offense's plan for attacking the Bills D, is not a super convincing line of argument? Is it possible that if a one-dimensional offense like Baltimore's decided to focus their attack on Edmunds, then maybe they viewed Edmunds as a liability they could exploit? And while the Bills D played well in that game, isn't it also possible that the one-dimensional quality of the Ravens offense might have allowed Edmunds to be more decisive and therefore effective? It's become a playoff theme (diminishing returns) for Baltimore with Jackson at QB, hasn't it? I mean, how good did our MLB look against Indy and KC in contrast? Playing against teams with the very real threat of offensive balance might be better indicators of an MLB's real value. 

 

I don't hate Edmunds at all, but I do see an elite athlete potentially playing out of position with respect to pre-snap processing and post-snap impact plays. 

 

I did NOT yet listen to the podcast referencing Baltimore's offensive approach to playing the Bills D, for the record.

A great, well articulated point.  

[Matt_In_NH]

Is he on notice?

[3rdand12]

9 hours ago, mattynh said:

Is he on notice?

we can discuss all day about what Edmunds brings. and or should bring.
If I am the McBeanes. I sure need a more complete player. And Impactful player.

Not because of his draft status, But the importance of his role in Bills Defense.
 and I am biased

 I like a player whom is feared at MLB

London Fletcher had  some nice stats for tackles. but they were all downfield after gains.
He was not a good fit ?

Maybe Edmunds would excel elsewhere.

still hoping for Tremaine to become a disruptive player

[BADOLBILZ]

On 6/10/2021 at 12:09 PM, Royale with Cheese said: