Bills 2021 Draft - Overall Assessment

[Solomon Grundy]

Charles Davis should be in some NFL team’s organization 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

This is an interesting observation.  I think there's some truth in.  And drafting at 30, you aren't going to get a lot of top flight stars.

 

But the question for Bills fans is "do you want top flight talent or you want to win?"  QB is the only position where top flight talent correlates with winning.  Tampa had a lot of talent on the field last year, but Brady was probably the only guy on the team who was a star like Allen and Diggs.  

 

One way you can tell the Bills have a lot of talent is that they didn't have many opportunities to draft someone who would be clearly better than the starter the Bills have at any particular position.   McBeane clearly like their talent, because they didn't go chasing talent in the free agent markets and they drafted high ceiling guys who won't necessarily be immediate contributors.  That's the process when you want to continuously improve your talent.  

 

So, yeah, the Bills didn't take someone who makes the fans dream of instant impact, like a Sammy Watkins did and a CJ Spiller did, and they didn't sign someone who got the juices flowing like the Mario Williams signing did, but we saw how those approaches worked and we've seen how McBeane's approach works.   There are no parades around downtown this morning, but I'm fine with that.   This looks like the way to have a parade in February. 

It was a meat and potatoes draft and our local media was really pushing the add more speed angle.

 

Constant talk about Etienne and fast WRs because the Kansas City  game.

 

So then the Draft comes and its Defensive End, Defense End, Offensive Tackle, Offensive Tackle and last year it was Epenesa and the year before that it was Oliver, the perception can be we didn’t do anything to help Allen.

 

Thats what WGR is saying largely today. Teams in the division got better, and the Bills stayed the same. Rousseau and Bashman are spot contributors and the OTs we took don’t play unless Williams/Dawkins get hurt.

 

Edited May 3, 2021 by Straight Hucklebuck

[oldmanfan]

Beane said something to the effect before the draft that they needed to keep adding to spots where they had guys, so they could have continuity.  And that's what he did.  After 4 years people still refuse to believe the guy when he tells us what he's going to do.

 

I would have liked a big NT in the draft, but other than that if we have a weakness last year it was pass rush, and they've added two guys to help fix that.  Two OT's and a G for potential depth, a CB and S where we needed depth, a slot WR to start thinking about life post Beasley.  

 

Did other teams in the division get better?  Probably.  The Jets and Cheatriots have nowhere to go but up (and each will depend on the QBs they drafted), and the Fish did smart things to get a lot more picks this year and next year, but Tua has to show them he can play QB in the NFL.  But we were 13-3 last year, kept a lot of the guys who did that, and added some depth.  What else was there to do?

Edited May 3, 2021 by oldmanfan

[Straight Hucklebuck]

13 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Beane said something to the effect before the draft that they needed to keep adding to spots where they had guys, so they could have continuity.  And that's what he did.  After 4 years people still refuse to believe the guy when he tells us what he's going to do.

 

I would have liked a big NT in the draft, but other than that if we have a weakness last year it was pass rush, and they've added two guys to help fix that.  Two OT's and a G for potential depth, a CB and S where we needed depth, a slot WR to start thinking about life post Beasley.  

 

Did other teams in the division get better?  Probably.  The Jets and Cheatriots have nowhere to go but up (and each will depend on the QBs they drafted), and the Fish did smart things to get a lot more picks this year and next year, but Tua has to show them he can play QB in the NFL.  But we were 13-3 last year, kept a lot of the guys who did that, and added some depth.  What else was there to do?

For instance, take Rousseau off the board, and put Elijah Moore in, take out Spencer Brown and put in Molden/Melifonwu, according to the media, that would have been a more balanced Draft where Moore possibly cracks the WR group early on, you find Corner #2 competition, but still end up with a rotational DE and a 6'8" developmental OT. 

 

Now there is a log jam at DE and OT. 

 

It's the idea that the Bills were close to the Super Bowl, and they needed to make moves to get over the hump. And rotational DEs and backup OTs don't move the needle.  

Edited May 3, 2021 by Straight Hucklebuck

[LABILLBACKER]

We addressed last years biggest weakness with our first two picks. We got better in the trenches with some of these sequoias. June 1st might allow us to fill a cb or 1T spot? Next year we go hard for a TE/RB. We still have a top 3 NFL QB who's a borderline MVP. Maybe it wasn't the sexiest draft in the world but I think it will be very productive, even if it's just Rousseau and Basham.

[Solomon Grundy]

6 hours ago, CountDorkula said:

C+

Teams are getting the ball out faster and faster.

Getting Ends who can rush the passer, yes you need, but when teams are getting the ball out in 2 seconds it wont matter much.

 

 

I'm not building my team from the trenches out.

I'm building from the back end in. 

 

Need cover corners and Linebackers. 

 

I guess we will see how it plays out, not a fan of going DE/DE/DE with your 3 top picks the last 2 years. 

 

 

Is it possible that is why the Bills chose to draft a long armed DE?? Someone who can bat down that quick pass? 

[Straight Hucklebuck]

5 minutes ago, LABILLBACKER said:

We addressed last years biggest weakness with our first two picks. We got better in the trenches with some of these sequoias. June 1st might allow us to fill a cb or 1T spot? Next year we go hard for a TE/RB. We still have a top 3 NFL QB who's a borderline MVP. Maybe it wasn't the sexiest draft in the world but I think it will be very productive, even if it's just Rousseau and Basham.

Yes, I think it stands to reason next year there will be more effort on Center and Tight End, also speed WR and mostly likely the Bills will be looking for another RB. 

 

 

[BornAgainBillsFan]

I'm fine with no startable CB or TE. But to completely ignore the 1 tech DL is baffling to me. 

 

Star is coming back. But A) what if he doesn't have it anymore, and B) what if he gets half way through camp and decides to hang it up for good? And if he is there this year, who else is in the 1 tech rotation? If they try to make Ed play it again, I'm going to lose my %&#$. He was drafted #9 overall to be our lightning bolt disruptor in the middle of the line.

 

If that's how he's going to be used again this year, you might as well trade him for a true 1 tech, and let him shine in the role he was meant to have somewhere else.

 

[oldmanfan]

3 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

For instance, take Rousseau off the board, and put Elijah Moore in, take out Spencer Brown and put in Molden/Melifonwu, according to the media, that would have been a more balanced Draft where Moore possibly cracks the WR group early on, you find Corner #2 competition, but still end up with a rotational DE and a 6'8" developmental OT. 

 

Now there is a log jam at DE and OT. 

 

It's the idea that the Bills were close to the Super Bowl, and they needed to make moves to get over the hump. And rotational DEs and backup OTs don't move the needle.  

Nope.  Moore doesn’t crack our top 4 WRs. A CB doesn’t add that much over Jackson or Wallace.  We all saw the Super Bowl.  We want to beat Mahomes we need pressure from up front.  We got two DEs to help there.

[Arm of Harm]

10 hours ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

I'm fine with no startable CB or TE. But to completely ignore the 1 tech DL is baffling to me. 

 

Star is coming back. But A) what if he doesn't have it anymore, and B) what if he gets half way through camp and decides to hang it up for good? And if he is there this year, who else is in the 1 tech rotation? If they try to make Ed play it again, I'm going to lose my %&#$. He was drafted #9 overall to be our lightning bolt disruptor in the middle of the line.

 

If that's how he's going to be used again this year, you might as well trade him for a true 1 tech, and let him shine in the role he was meant to have somewhere else.

 

 

If your biggest concern about the draft is the lack of a 1 tech, mine is no WR until the 6th round. Sanders and Beasley are both on the wrong side of 30, with Sanders in particular being especially old. Both are on one year deals. This draft had a ton of talent at WR. I'd wanted to see the Bills take a WR in the first or second, groom him for a year, then have him become a starter to take the place of the departing Sanders. 

 

That said, I realize the Bills didn't have the draft picks necessary to fill all their needs. I'm pleased with the collection of players they did acquire in this draft. 

[RochesterLifer]

14 hours ago, BornAgainBillsFan said:

I'm fine with no startable CB or TE. But to completely ignore the 1 tech DL is baffling to me. 

 

Star is coming back. But A) what if he doesn't have it anymore, and B) what if he gets half way through camp and decides to hang it up for good? And if he is there this year, who else is in the 1 tech rotation? If they try to make Ed play it again, I'm going to lose my %&#$. He was drafted #9 overall to be our lightning bolt disruptor in the middle of the line.

 

If that's how he's going to be used again this year, you might as well trade him for a true 1 tech, and let him shine in the role he was meant to have somewhere else.

 

I don't know any more than you do regarding Star. However, I'm willing to bet that Beane and McDermott do. The fact that we haven't done anything with 1T has me believing that they are in touch with Star and all is well. We saw this past year how much we need him.

[GunnerBill]

1 hour ago, RochesterLifer said:

I don't know any more than you do regarding Star. However, I'm willing to bet that Beane and McDermott do. The fact that we haven't done anything with 1T has me believing that they are in touch with Star and all is well. We saw this past year how much we need him.

 

I suspect they believe Star is coming back. What that looks like is an unknown to everyone until he steps on the field at camp and they start running contact drills. I still think they need some competition but it was never the case for me that it HAD to come from the draft. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

18 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

This is an interesting observation.  I think there's some truth in.  And drafting at 30, you aren't going to get a lot of top flight stars.

 

But the question for Bills fans is "do you want top flight talent or you want to win?"  QB is the only position where top flight talent correlates with winning.  Tampa had a lot of talent on the field last year, but Brady was probably the only guy on the team who was a star like Allen and Diggs. 

 

You have valid points about the Bills drafting for continuous improvement, not drafting Spiller-like splashy picks, but I don't think that's true that Brady was probably the only guy on TB who "was a star like Allen and Diggs".  You may not personally be aware of or follow their stars, but they're there.

 

He's been playing on a bad team, but Mike Evans has been in the league 7 years with QB the likes of Josh McCown, Mike Glennon, and Jamais Winston throwing to him.  He's got 7 - 1000+ yd seasons.  If he's not a "star", it's not because he doesn't deserve to be. 

 

Godwin had a Diggs like season last year and this year, with Brady throwing to him, his catch % was unreal

 

Gronk may be a fading star, but he's still a star

 

Lavonte David may be the best MLB in the game today.

 

Pierre-Paul may be a fading star, but still a star.  Devin White is a rising star.  Shaq Barrett is an impact player.

 

Instead of "star" which has connotations of being a media figure who draws PR, let's use the term "significant impact player".

 

Tampa Bay had at least 7 significant impact players beyond Brady, 4 on offense counting Brady, 4 on defense.

[JaCrispy]

On 5/1/2021 at 6:17 PM, Process said:

C+ 

 

Don't love double dipping at DE and OT and not addressing another needs like WR CB and DT until the later rounds. 

 

At the end of the day we added to the lines, which is never a bad thing, so I don't hate it. 

 

But between FA and the draft, the Chiefs, Browns, Dolphins, Jets and Patriots all made moves that will make them significantly better in 2021. The Bills did not. 

 

This year was about trenches, next year we will really need to add some playmakers on offense and in the secondary.

This is the key for me...we didn’t add any playmakers that are going make significant game changing plays- something we really could have used on both sides of the ball...change out Rousseau for Moore and it’s an “A” draft for me...instead, he goes to the Jets, 3 picks later, and we get a non athletic, 3 year project at DE...

 

Just really hoping this is a “Josh Allen” type situation where I initially hate the pick and he ends up being all-world! Lol

Edited May 4, 2021 by JaCrispy

[Hapless Bills Fan]

16 hours ago, Straight Hucklebuck said:

For instance, take Rousseau off the board, and put Elijah Moore in, take out Spencer Brown and put in Molden/Melifonwu, according to the media, that would have been a more balanced Draft where Moore possibly cracks the WR group early on, you find Corner #2 competition, but still end up with a rotational DE and a 6'8" developmental OT. 

 

Now there is a log jam at DE and OT.

 

I think the Bills consider they have a logjam at WR with the guys they have signed.  I think they really like Hodgins. 

 

I think they may agree with Beasley that he has several more seasons in him.  You don't use a 1st round pick on a guy who's gonna sit for 1-2 seasons.  That's where you use a later round pick and hope you can develop the guy.

 

Their big gap was a speedy guy who can track the ball. 

 

 

15 minutes ago, JaCrispy said:

This is the key for me...we didn’t add any playmakers that are going make significant game changing plays- something we really could have used on both sides of the ball...change out Rousseau for Moore and it’s an “A” draft for me...instead, he goes to the Jets, 3 picks later, and we get a non athletic, 3 year project at DE...

 

Just really hoping this is a “Josh Allen” type situation where I initially hate the pick and he ends up being all-world! Lol

 

If Rousseau is actually a non-athletic, 3 year project then the Bills made a mistake drafting him.

 

Who on the Bills WR do you think sits this year so Moore could play?  Beasley?  Sanders?  Not happening.

[Juice_32]

On 5/1/2021 at 6:23 PM, Coach Tuesday said:

Best draft of my lifetime.  They had a clear, sane strategy that makes perfect sense in today’s NFL where (i) you’ve got a franchise QB about to take up a big chunk of the cap; (ii) you need depth at premium positions (everyone does); and (iii) you did sober self-scouting to realize you weren’t affecting the passing game enough to beat your biggest obstacle to the Lombardi.  Super impressed with a well-executed PLAN.  This draft was the product of a clear strategic plan and I’ve literally been waiting decades to say that about this team’s draft.

Perfectly summed up. The Russ/Nix/Rex years are a distant memory. These guys are smart, and disciplined. This draft was “the process” put to action.

[JaCrispy]

15 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think the Bills consider they have a logjam at WR with the guys they have signed.  I think they really like Hodgins. 

 

I think they may agree with Beasley that he has several more seasons in him.  You don't use a 1st round pick on a guy who's gonna sit for 1-2 seasons.  That's where you use a later round pick and hope you can develop the guy.

 

Their big gap was a speedy guy who can track the ball. 

 

 

 

If Rousseau is actually a non-athletic, 3 year project then the Bills made a mistake drafting him.

 

Who on the Bills WR do you think sits this year so Moore could play?

Moore would have to earn playing time...I would sprinkle him in at certain times, initially, to get his feet wet and  to try and create big plays...the more he proved himself the more playing time he would get...

 

You can’t say exactly who would sit at this time...it might be someone who wasn’t producing as well, or maybe even a combination of players...maybe Sanders starts to decline, or maybe Beasley? Who knows? Maybe Davis has a little bit of a sophomore slump...doesn’t have to be one guy...just a chance to create opportunities and mismatches for the offense imo...

 

And then we also can’t forget about potential injuries will likely occur...

Edited May 4, 2021 by JaCrispy

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, JaCrispy said:

Moore would have to earn playing time...I would sprinkle him in at certain times, initially, to get his feet wet and  to try and create big plays...the more he proved himself the more playing time he would get...

 

You can’t say exactly who would sit at this time...it might be someone who wasn’t producing as well, or maybe even a combination of players...maybe Sanders starts to decline, or maybe Beasley? Who knows? Maybe Davis has a little bit of a sophomore slump...doesn’t have to be one guy...just a chance to create opportunities and mismatches for the offense imo...

 

But here's the thing....you mentioned Moore because you think  "we didn’t add any playmakers that are going make significant game changing plays- something we really could have used on both sides of the ball".  But in order to allow him to make that difference, you would have to pull time from guys who actually DID make significant game changing plays for the Bills last year - Beasley and Davis.  WR, especially rookies, seldom make "game changing plays" when sprinkled in.  Very soon the lineup starts telegraphing, as in 2019 when teams saw McKenzie and said "there's that Jet Sweep or Reverse again!".  It  lost effectiveness until McKenzie developed the ability (and timing/same page thinking with Josh) to broaden his route vocabulary.

How do you know that Rousseau isn't going to be sprinkled in at certain times to get his feet wet and try to create big plays, and get more playing time the more he proves himself? 

 

I think what your argument comes down to is the Bills didn't draft the guy you wanted, and you don't like the guy they did draft.  But the truth is we have a lot of depth at WR ahead of Moore so he likely wouldn't have made a huge immediate contribution, and we have starters ahead of Rousseau.  Both would have had limited impact, and both would have had to be sprinkled in and earn playing time. 

 

But last year, our receiving corps was overall one of the best in the league, even with Brown missing significant time and not himself when active.  Our pass rush and ability to pressure the QB, OTOH, was NOT.

[Doc]

5 hours ago, Arm of Harm said:

If your biggest concern about the draft is the lack of a 1 tech, mine is no WR until the 6th round. Sanders and Beasley are both on the wrong side of 30, with Sanders in particular being especially old. Both are on one year deals. This draft had a ton of talent at WR. I'd wanted to see the Bills take a WR in the first or second, groom him for a year, then have him become a starter to take the place of the departing Sanders. 

 

That said, I realize the Bills didn't have the draft picks necessary to fill all their needs. I'm pleased with the collection of players they did acquire in this draft. 

 

Diggs and Davis are young.  The rookie Stevenson looks promising.  They seemed to be high on Hodgins before his injury last year.  McK is fairly young.

 

[dave mcbride]

21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But here's the thing....you mentioned Moore because you think  "we didn’t add any playmakers that are going make significant game changing plays- something we really could have used on both sides of the ball".  But in order to allow him to make that difference, you would have to pull time from guys who actually DID make significant game changing plays for the Bills last year - Beasley and Davis.  WR, especially rookies, seldom make "game changing plays" when sprinkled in.  Very soon the lineup starts telegraphing, as in 2019 when teams saw McKenzie and said "there's that Jet Sweep or Reverse again!".  It  lost effectiveness until McKenzie developed the ability (and timing/same page thinking with Josh) to broaden his route vocabulary.

How do you know that Rousseau isn't going to be sprinkled in at certain times to get his feet wet and try to create big plays, and get more playing time the more he proves himself? 

 

I think what your argument comes down to is the Bills didn't draft the guy you wanted, and you don't like the guy they did draft.  But the truth is we have a lot of depth at WR ahead of Moore so he likely wouldn't have made a huge immediate contribution, and we have starters ahead of Rousseau.  Both would have had limited impact, and both would have had to be sprinkled in and earn playing time. 

 

But last year, our receiving corps was overall one of the best in the league, even with Brown missing significant time and not himself when active.  Our pass rush and ability to pressure the QB, OTOH, was NOT.

Another thing: they signed Sanders, who I expect will be good to very good this season. And literally every year now, the draft is LOADED with wide receiving talent. Next year will I’m sure feature a ton of Elijah Moores too. The passing game is not going to be the issue this season, so fix what needs fixing. There will always be good receivers to take given the nature of elite athlete sorting at the HS and college levels.

[JaCrispy]

34 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

But here's the thing....you mentioned Moore because you think  "we didn’t add any playmakers that are going make significant game changing plays- something we really could have used on both sides of the ball".  But in order to allow him to make that difference, you would have to pull time from guys who actually DID make significant game changing plays for the Bills last year - Beasley and Davis.  WR, especially rookies, seldom make "game changing plays" when sprinkled in.  Very soon the lineup starts telegraphing, as in 2019 when teams saw McKenzie and said "there's that Jet Sweep or Reverse again!".  It  lost effectiveness until McKenzie developed the ability (and timing/same page thinking with Josh) to broaden his route vocabulary.

How do you know that Rousseau isn't going to be sprinkled in at certain times to get his feet wet and try to create big plays, and get more playing time the more he proves himself? 

 

I think what your argument comes down to is the Bills didn't draft the guy you wanted, and you don't like the guy they did draft.  But the truth is we have a lot of depth at WR ahead of Moore so he likely wouldn't have made a huge immediate contribution, and we have starters ahead of Rousseau.  Both would have had limited impact, and both would have had to be sprinkled in and earn playing time. 

 

But last year, our receiving corps was overall one of the best in the league, even with Brown missing significant time and not himself when active.  Our pass rush and ability to pressure the QB, OTOH, was NOT.

Well, you are correct that I didn’t want Rousseau...I did not think he was BPA...the way the board fell to us, I wanted one of:

 

JOK

Barmore 

Moore

Tryon

 

...or trade back...

Edited May 4, 2021 by JaCrispy

[BarleyNY]

14 hours ago, oldmanfan said:

Nope.  Moore doesn’t crack our top 4 WRs. A CB doesn’t add that much over Jackson or Wallace.  We all saw the Super Bowl.  We want to beat Mahomes we need pressure from up front.  We got two DEs to help there.

I’m not saying we don’t need a better pass rush, we do.   But Sanders at this stage in his career is a redundant piece to Cole.  He’s not going to be a deep threat.  A quality WR draft pick, especially a speedy outside one, would start.  The problem with Moore is that he’s probably a slot only WR and we need an X.  And those were available well into the 3rd round.

 

But it does bring up an interesting question: Do the Bills really need someone to take the top off of the defense?  Conventional wisdom says, yes, that it always helps the short and intermediate passing games as well as the run game.  The Bills didn’t have a very good run game last season, but they did very well in the short and intermediate passing games.  So maybe they’re focused solely on receivers who can separate (ie our current top 4 WRs) and aren’t that concerned with taking the top off the defense.  Something to think about.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, BarleyNY said:

I’m not saying we don’t need a better pass rush, we do.   But Sanders at this stage in his career is a redundant piece to Cole.  He’s not going to be a deep threat.  A quality WR draft pick, especially a speedy outside one, would start.  The problem with Moore is that he’s probably a slot only WR and we need an X.  And those were available well into the 3rd round.

 

But it does bring up an interesting question: Do the Bills really need someone to take the top off of the defense?  Conventional wisdom says, yes, that it always helps the short and intermediate passing games as well as the run game.  The Bills didn’t have a very good run game last season, but they did very well in the short and intermediate passing games.  So maybe they’re focused solely on receivers who can separate (ie our current top 4 WRs) and aren’t that concerned with taking the top off the defense.  Something to think about.

I think Sanders and Beasley don't play the same role.  You raise an interesting point about this.  I do think Davis can get deep and they can always send McKenzie deep as well (or the kid they drafted from Houston).    With our offense though I think separation is more pivotal.

[BarleyNY]

20 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

I think Sanders and Beasley don't play the same role.  You raise an interesting point about this.  I do think Davis can get deep and they can always send McKenzie deep as well (or the kid they drafted from Houston).    With our offense though I think separation is more pivotal.

I’m going to wait and see on Sanders.  He’s 34 and only started 5 games for NO last season.  I think he’ll be a guy we can go to for first downs but not one who is going to stretch the field.  It’ll probably be one of the younger WRs you mentioned lining up outside opposite Diggs. 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

2 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

I’m going to wait and see on Sanders.  He’s 34 and only started 5 games for NO last season.  I think he’ll be a guy we can go to for first downs but not one who is going to stretch the field.  It’ll probably be one of the younger WRs you mentioned lining up outside opposite Diggs. 

 

Sanders had 61 catches for 726 yards and 5 touchdowns last year. Just re-watched his highlights from last year and, while he did have plenty of catches finding short pockets, he actually killed teams in the intermediate-to-deep middle. He also was limited a bit by Brees' last-season-arm. I have high hopes for Sanders in this offense. 

 

This regime has coveted one trait above all others for WRs: separation.

 

Still, I think Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, and Stevenson all figure to contribute as deep threats here and there. 

[Shaw66]

4 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You have valid points about the Bills drafting for continuous improvement, not drafting Spiller-like splashy picks, but I don't think that's true that Brady was probably the only guy on TB who "was a star like Allen and Diggs".  You may not personally be aware of or follow their stars, but they're there.

 

He's been playing on a bad team, but Mike Evans has been in the league 7 years with QB the likes of Josh McCown, Mike Glennon, and Jamais Winston throwing to him.  He's got 7 - 1000+ yd seasons.  If he's not a "star", it's not because he doesn't deserve to be. 

 

Godwin had a Diggs like season last year and this year, with Brady throwing to him, his catch % was unreal

 

Gronk may be a fading star, but he's still a star

 

Lavonte David may be the best MLB in the game today.

 

Pierre-Paul may be a fading star, but still a star.  Devin White is a rising star.  Shaq Barrett is an impact player.

iInstead of "star" which has connotations of being a media figure who draws PR, let's use the term "significant impact player".

 

Tampa Bay had at least 7 significant impact players beyond Brady, 4 on offense counting Brady, 4 on defense.

I suspected I'd get this argument, and I thank you for making it.  It's not a point worth arguing about, and I hear what you're saying. 

 

I don't know David, but Evans is the only in that group that I'd consider trading taking in exchange for Diggs.   No way is Godwin in his class, nor Gronk today nor Pierre Paul today.  Those guys may be play makers but they aren't game changers.   Micah Hyde is a playmaker, but he isn't a star.  Hughes is a playmaker but not a star.  If the Bills had one the Super Bowl, people would have been talking about the plays those guys made.  If the Packers had beaten the Bucs, no one would be talking here about Godwin or Pierre-Paul (I don't say that to suggest that they aren't good players).  The Bucs were good, really good, because they collected a lot of talent and got themselves a great QB.  

 

My point was that you need good talent to win, but other than at QB, they don't need to be stars.  Aaron Donald doesn't make you a winner, Kahlil Mack doesn't, Budda Baker doesn't.  Heck, Mike Evans didn't until Brady showed up.  Hopkins doesn't make you a winner.  

 

It's a simple formula - collect talent and get a great QB.   It was the Patriots formula, it was the Packers formula, the Saints formula, the Chiefs formula, the Bucs formula.  And it's the Bills formula.  

 

What I like about what the Bills are doing is they're collecting talent, and talent is talent.  

[LABILLBACKER]

3 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Another thing: they signed Sanders, who I expect will be good to very good this season. And literally every year now, the draft is LOADED with wide receiving talent. Next year will I’m sure feature a ton of Elijah Moores too. The passing game is not going to be the issue this season, so fix what needs fixing. There will always be good receivers to take given the nature of elite athlete sorting at the HS and college levels.

We're absolutely fine at wr. We improved the #1 need which was young pass rushers. Next year I'm sure we'll target a fly route we along with a rb/te.

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

 

Sanders had 61 catches for 726 yards and 5 touchdowns last year. Just re-watched his highlights from last year and, while he did have plenty of catches finding short pockets, he actually killed teams in the intermediate-to-deep middle. He also was limited a bit by Brees' last-season-arm. I have high hopes for Sanders in this offense. 

 

This regime has coveted one trait above all others for WRs: separation.

 

Still, I think Diggs, Davis, McKenzie, and Stevenson all figure to contribute as deep threats here and there. 

I agree with you about Sanders.  He's a sneaky deep threat.   

 

Interesting comment about the Bills and separation.  I suppose it's true for all teams, but you're right.   Separation is the difference between Brown and Sanders.   Brown didn't create separation as much as he was good at taking advantage of opportunities the defense presented.   Sanders is a smarter route runner than that. 

[JohnBonhamRocks]

2 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

I agree with you about Sanders.  He's a sneaky deep threat.   

 

Interesting comment about the Bills and separation.  I suppose it's true for all teams, but you're right.   Separation is the difference between Brown and Sanders.   Brown didn't create separation as much as he was good at taking advantage of opportunities the defense presented.   Sanders is a smarter route runner than that. 

Yeah, he’s definitely not what I’d call a “burner”, but his smart route running allows him to find open areas deep.

 

I think Diggs, Sanders, and Beasley have to be the best trio in the NFL in terms of route running and ability to create separation.
 

Brown seemed to be able to turn the respect DBs had to give his deep speed into separation moreso than technical route running, not that he’s bad at the latter. Edit: I think the decision to move on from him was more based on his injuries.
 

My guess is Stevenson is in the upper echelon for separation, too.

Edited May 4, 2021 by JohnBonhamRocks

[No_Matter_What]

3 hours ago, YoloinOhio said:

 

Asterix next to NE has to mean something else than 2020 playoffs

[Hapless Bills Fan]

6 hours ago, BarleyNY said:

I’m not saying we don’t need a better pass rush, we do.   But Sanders at this stage in his career is a redundant piece to Cole.  He’s not going to be a deep threat.  A quality WR draft pick, especially a speedy outside one, would start.  The problem with Moore is that he’s probably a slot only WR and we need an X.  And those were available well into the 3rd round.

 

But it does bring up an interesting question: Do the Bills really need someone to take the top off of the defense?  Conventional wisdom says, yes, that it always helps the short and intermediate passing games as well as the run game.  The Bills didn’t have a very good run game last season, but they did very well in the short and intermediate passing games.  So maybe they’re focused solely on receivers who can separate (ie our current top 4 WRs) and aren’t that concerned with taking the top off the defense.  Something to think about.

 

Ah.  So.  I think the Bills do want to take the top off the defense (more in a minute).  But I don't think they view Sanders potentially redundant skillset to Cole as redundant in their scheme.

 

Here's what I saw, I could be wrong.  In games where we were struggling against a pretty strong pass rush or pressure (Pittsburgh, for example), we didn't have time for the deeper routes Diggs was running to open up.  Pitts. was doing a good job of bracketing Beasley and taking him away on the intermediate/deep routes.  So, what we did was rearrange the route tree and put Diggs on that shorter quicker stuff.  They couldn't take away both Beasley and Diggs, and Diggs slaughtered them in the 2nd half of the Pittsburgh game, including YAC (66 yds AC, roughly half his yardage totals).

 

What I think the Bills wanted is a 2nd guy who's just as hard to cover as Beasley, to free up Diggs to run those intermediate to deep routes.  I think the Bills wanted a sure bet they could get their hands on.  They looked at the FAs and the draft reports and decided that without selling out their draft picks, their surest path to getting that guy was to sign Sanders.

 

Where some here differ from the Bills is that it's sometimes asserted that he doesn't have true burner speed because of his 4.46 40-time.  But top speedsters in the NFL these days are clocked (by GPS in their uniforms) running at top speeds of 21.7-23 mph.  I can't find a list of what he hits on the football field, but I can tell you Diggs has posted videos of himself hitting 22.6, 22.8. 23 (!) mph doing speed training off season.  He's faster than people think.

 

Which brings me back to the "top off the defense".  To my eyes, the problem with Brown as a deep threat was that he could be neutralized by good enough press man and "sticky" coverage, especially after he maybe struggled this season with injuries.  You mention we need an X, I imagine you know this but as one breakdown puts it "in most formations, the X receiver is tethered to the line of scrimmage.  He cannot go in motion, so  the cornerback can jam him at the line. So, your X receiver, he .... better have the quickness to get away from the corner, and he better be good coming off a press."  It's not a clear thing IMO that these guys in the 3rd round were going to translate on that immediately at the NFL level.  To be a speed guy at the NFL level, you got to be able to separate, too.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, JohnBonhamRocks said:

Brown seemed to be able to turn the respect DBs had to give his deep speed into separation moreso than technical route running, not that he’s bad at the latter. Edit: I think the decision to move on from him was more based on his injuries.

 

I think the problem with Brown is that physical press man coverage has always been able to neutralize him to some extent.  Also, he's a good route-running technician, but I don't remember watching a Brown highlight where I was like "Smoke!!!! Have Mercy, that guy's got a family!"  which you can definitely find on Sanders and on Diggs without too much trouble. 

 

In addition to injury concerns, the plays where Brown was thrown the opportunity to swing the game (maybe not a perfect pass but a catchable one) and failed to put it away, were mounting up.

[BarleyNY]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Ah.  So.  I think the Bills do want to take the top off the defense (more in a minute).  But I don't think they view Sanders potentially redundant skillset to Cole as redundant in their scheme.

 

Here's what I saw, I could be wrong.  In games where we were struggling against a pretty strong pass rush or pressure (Pittsburgh, for example), we didn't have time for the deeper routes Diggs was running to open up.  Pitts. was doing a good job of bracketing Beasley and taking him away on the intermediate/deep routes.  So, what we did was rearrange the route tree and put Diggs on that shorter quicker stuff.  They couldn't take away both Beasley and Diggs, and Diggs slaughtered them in the 2nd half of the Pittsburgh game, including YAC (66 yds AC, roughly half his yardage totals).

 

What I think the Bills wanted is a 2nd guy who's just as hard to cover as Beasley, to free up Diggs to run those intermediate to deep routes.  I think the Bills wanted a sure bet they could get their hands on.  They looked at the FAs and the draft reports and decided that without selling out their draft picks, their surest path to getting that guy was to sign Sanders.

 

Where some here differ from the Bills is that it's sometimes asserted that he doesn't have true burner speed because of his 4.46 40-time.  But top speedsters in the NFL these days are clocked (by GPS in their uniforms) running at top speeds of 21.7-23 mph.  I can't find a list of what he hits on the football field, but I can tell you Diggs has posted videos of himself hitting 22.6, 22.8. 23 (!) mph doing speed training off season.  He's faster than people think.

 

Which brings me back to the "top off the defense".  To my eyes, the problem with Brown as a deep threat was that he could be neutralized by good enough press man and "sticky" coverage, especially after he maybe struggled this season with injuries.  You mention we need an X, I imagine you know this but as one breakdown puts it "in most formations, the X receiver is tethered to the line of scrimmage.  He cannot go in motion, so  the cornerback can jam him at the line. So, your X receiver, he .... better have the quickness to get away from the corner, and he better be good coming off a press."  It's not a clear thing IMO that these guys in the 3rd round were going to translate on that immediately at the NFL level.  To be a speed guy at the NFL level, you got to be able to separate, too.

 

 

Nice post.  I definitely see Sanders and Beasley in the field together too.  I didn’t mean to imply that ALL he would do is back up Cole, but I do think that Beasley getting injured and not having anyone to do his job played into it. 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

Nice post.  I definitely see Sanders and Beasley in the field together too.  I didn’t mean to imply that ALL he would do is back up Cole, but I do think that Beasley getting injured and not having anyone to do his job played into it. 

 

Agreed. 

 

McDermott's mouth said "we have full confidence in Isaiah McKenzie to take over for Cole" but when you play a guy with an actual broken leg in 3 playoff games over his backup, well, your actions speak loudly.

 

My point was I think they view Diggs and Sanders as more interchangeable than you might think, and I think they view having Sanders and Cole on the field together as a way to free Diggs to play deeper....but you're absolutely right that having a backup plan for Beasley's route-running vocabulary played into it.

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

7 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, you are correct that I didn’t want Rousseau...I did not think he was BPA...the way the board fell to us, I wanted one of:

 

JOK

Barmore 

Moore

Tryon

 

...or trade back...

 

Those are all top players.  I think it's a point that if you look at the way Zierlein grades for NFL.com, J-OK graded higher, but we now know there was a medical concern which pushed him down almost a round. 

 

The rest are pretty close together - within 0.2.  That means it's entirely plausible that while you didn't think he was BPA, the Bills talent evaluators did.

[Shaw66]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Agreed. 

 

McDermott's mouth said "we have full confidence in Isaiah McKenzie to take over for Cole" but when you play a guy with an actual broken leg in 3 playoff games over his backup, well, your actions speak loudly.

 

My point was I think they view Diggs and Sanders as more interchangeable than you might think, and I think they view having Sanders and Cole on the field together as a way to free Diggs to play deeper....but you're absolutely right that having a backup plan for Beasley's route-running vocabulary played into it.

 

 

Great posts about the receivers, Hap.   McKenzie has never impressed me as a receiving threat (it baffles me how he and Roberts can return the kicks the way they do and can't learn to be better receivers), and the point about McKenzie not taking over when Cole was injured is telling.   I'm sure McDermott is hoping Stevenson will be immediate competition for Isaiah - the Bills could use some flash, especially since Brown is gone, and I don't think McKenzie is the guy.    

[Hapless Bills Fan]

45 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Great posts about the receivers, Hap.   McKenzie has never impressed me as a receiving threat (it baffles me how he and Roberts can return the kicks the way they do and can't learn to be better receivers), and the point about McKenzie not taking over when Cole was injured is telling.   I'm sure McDermott is hoping Stevenson will be immediate competition for Isaiah - the Bills could use some flash, especially since Brown is gone, and I don't think McKenzie is the guy.    

 

Heh.  McKenzie's draft profile:

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/isaiah-mckenzie/32004d43-4b25-0948-8027-d3dafaef3cae

Quote

McKenzie's big play production is impressive on paper, but once you get into the tape, it becomes apparent that much of what he is able to accomplish is due to mismatched speed in space and packaged plays tailored towards his strengths. As a receiver, he is below the mark of what teams will expect from their slots in terms of route-running, but his explosive return ability could land him work right away.

 

I would say that McKenzie is one of those guys who basically was able to rely on his athleticism in college and never had to focus on polishing his abilities to fake DBs out of their cleats the way Diggs can, and probably never had a lot of coaching attention helping him develop. 

 

The interesting thing about McKenzie is that to my eyes, he is learning to be a better receiver - he got a TON better last season as a WR and it showed in how the Bills used him.  Yes, he was still running those Jet sweeps and reverses, but he was actually on the field running routes and succeeding with them at times.  Coaching matters.  The quality of the other WR you're training with matters.  As evidence, I offer you Week 17 of last season when he ran enough routes to be charted:

https://nextgenstats.nfl.com/charts/player/season/isaiah-mckenzie/MCK250948/2020/17/route

Just looking at the chart, you can see the difference.  Compare to say, Week 15 in 2018.  He's running actual routes now, and while he still has work to do, he's running them capably.   In fact looking at a couple of those, you could see the DB getting toasted.

 

The question is, will he continue to develop or has he reached a plateau?

 

McKenzie's Instagram feed is chock full of shots of him working out hard, and his athleticism is just off the charts.  He had one of him doing 48" box jumps then like 36" box jumps - one legged and holding a medicine ball.  He's only 68" tall.  On and on, he's just a Dawg for training.

 

Now, a guy's insta feed doesn't necessarily show a good picture of what he's doing, but in contrast, Diggs insta feed is full of him working on those sudden cuts and changes of direction - basically honing the muscle memories and skills he uses to de-cleat professional NFL athletes on a regular basis.

 

It makes me wish McKenzie would go train at the same place Diggs uses, which is "Receiver Factory".  Motto: "Won't get you Stronger, won't get you Faster, Will get you Open".  (Of course Diggs works on the Stronger and Faster parts too). 

 

Unfortunately for McKenzie, he's apparently a big-ass trash talker ("small man syndrome", Addison said) and I think he may put some people's back up a bit where they're still helpful, but a little bit less inclined to take him under their wing.

[Shaw66]

10 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Heh.  McKenzie's draft profile:

https://www.nfl.com/prospects/isaiah-mckenzie/32004d43-4b25-0948-8027-d3dafaef3cae

 

I would say that McKenzie is one of those guys who basically was able to rely on his athleticism in college and never had to focus on polishing his abilities to fake DBs out of their cleats the way Diggs can, and probably never had a lot of coaching attention helping him develop. 

 

The interesting thing about McKenzie is that to my eyes, he got a TON better last season as a WR and it showed in how the Bills used him.  Yes, he was still running those Jet sweeps and reverses, but he was actually on the field running routes and succeeding with them.  Coaching matters.  The quality of the other WR you're training with matters.

 

McKenzie's Instagram feed is chock full of shots of him working out hard, and his athleticism is just off the charts.  He had one of him doing 48" box jumps then like 36" box jumps - one legged and holding a medicine ball.  He's only 68" tall.  On and on, he's just a Dawg for training.

 

Now, a guy's insta feed doesn't necessarily show a good picture of what he's doing, but in contrast, Diggs insta feed is full of him working on those sudden cuts and changes of direction - basically honing the muscle memories and skills he uses to de-cleat professional NFL athletes on a regular basis.

 

It makes me wish McKenzie would go train at the same place Diggs uses, which is "Receiver Factory".  Motto: "Won't get you Stronger, won't get you Faster, Will get you Open".  (Of course Diggs works on the Stronger and Faster parts too)

Thanks.  I agree about all of this.  Incredible that his draft profile nailed it like that.   Perfect. 

 

And I agree about last season.   He made plays as a receiver I hadn't seen in earlier seasons.  

 

And your comments about his workouts dovetail with main.   How does a guy with those natural skills not learn the things he needs to do with the natural skills to become a weapon?   He may be trying and just can't do it.   Or maybe he isn't getting the right advice.  I mean, someone told Spencer Brown to work out with Joe Staley; what's McKenzie doing. 

 

A bit out of left field, but related.  I heard JJ Redick interviewed one time.  He said when he was in high school, he didn't think he was going to play in college, and then he became a bigtime recruit.  Then, in his junior year in college he was looking at business schools, because he thought his career was over, and then the NBA called.   When he made it as a rookie, he surprised himself.   During his rookie season, he sought out a current or former veteran and asked him what Redick needed to do to stay in the league.   The guy said work out every off season, but don't just work out.   Learn to do something knew every off-season, something you can incorporate into your game that will make you a better and different player.   Redick said in the interview that that is exactly what he's done.   He's added skills, year after year.  

 

It would be great if McKenzie took another step this season.  

[GunnerBill]

9 hours ago, JaCrispy said:

Well, you are correct that I didn’t want Rousseau...I did not think he was BPA...the way the board fell to us, I wanted one of:

 

JOK

Barmore 

Moore

Tryon

 

...or trade back...

 

Whereas Moore or Tryon at #30 would have had me scratching my skin off....