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The End of the Lamar Jackson Era


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2 hours ago, The Frankish Reich said:

Elway and Kelly weren’t exactly Elway and Kelly (as we think of them now) in their first couple seasons. 
Of course Baker and Josh aren’t there yet. You don’t get to Canton with one good or even great season. But to me they both look like winners who’ll be around a long time. 


Faker Mayfield 😂 😆 😝 

 

Josh is crushing Jim’s records weekly 

 

Even Jim said as much

 

 

 

 

 

 

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I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple

Say it with me..."We don't have to tear down Lamar, to prop Josh up".   Lamar is a phenomenal player and deserves his place at the "elite of the elite" table. Josh is well on his way to earn

Eh. I would be pissed if JA had a clunker and the rest of the league said, see! I told you he wasn't any good! I don't think we should do the same to LJ.    Tonight seemed as much about LJ h

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12 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

The whole reason the Lamar debate should not be stuck on absolutes like "MVP" or "End of era" is because Lamar can win like he won last night. That isn't a one off.

 

Lamar isn't a flash in the pan. He is going to win plenty of games in the NFL. Whether you can ever win a Championship playing this way is a fair question.... I think everything else would need to be perfect - and certainly this year their offensive line hasn't been with Yanda retiring, Stanley tearing his ACL and other injuries.

 

...Because his gifts mean he is the only QB in the league that I think could win regularly completing 10-15 passes. That is the 14th time in his young career he has done it. It is not a fluke.

 

Much of this is true, but the Lamar era ends next year. Which GM wants to pay him $30 mil for a guy on his physical downside and needs that physicality just be good or decent? He won't have games like last night in 4 years from today. 

 

This is his window, he's earned it. He should be praised and he should be enjoyed. He's a great player, one of the greatest we've seen, but we have to recognize he's a short window athlete heading towards the end of greatness relatively fast. It's just a shame guys like him and great RBs won't be rewarded in FA anymore. He'll be a millionaire if he can save now, but I doubt he'll get top 10 starter money by the end of next year. If they pick up his 5th year option it's just to get meat from the bones.

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7 hours ago, BillsToast said:

 

Much of this is true, but the Lamar era ends next year. Which GM wants to pay him $30 mil for a guy on his physical downside and needs that physicality just be good or decent? He won't have games like last night in 4 years from today. 

 

This is his window, he's earned it. He should be praised and he should be enjoyed. He's a great player, one of the greatest we've seen, but we have to recognize he's a short window athlete heading towards the end of greatness relatively fast. It's just a shame guys like him and great RBs won't be rewarded in FA anymore. He'll be a millionaire if he can save now, but I doubt he'll get top 10 starter money by the end of next year. If they pick up his 5th year option it's just to get meat from the bones.

 

Why can't he have games like last night 4 years from today? I am not sure I buy that. How much you should pay him is a really tough question - I agree. Because he is something of a unicorn in the market.

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11 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Why can't he have games like last night 4 years from today? I am not sure I buy that. How much you should pay him is a really tough question - I agree. Because he is something of a unicorn in the market.

 

Because a guy like him has to run up the middle for his big plays and if you watch him get tackled you know these guys are trying to hurt him. He has a small frame and just like Vick near 28 or 29 he can run, but not for as many yards and he lost games to injury.

 

What happens when he can only rush for 600 yards a season? Is he valuable? Not the way he passes. He needs to rush for 1,000/yr every year to have a great year. Running backs can't break 1k/season without injury after 4-5 years. He's not built like a RB. 

 

He needs an above average D, a great run game, and personally needs to run for 80 yards a game to be effective. 

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15 minutes ago, BillsToast said:

 

Because a guy like him has to run up the middle for his big plays and if you watch him get tackled you know these guys are trying to hurt him. He has a small frame and just like Vick near 28 or 29 he can run, but not for as many yards and he lost games to injury.

 

What happens when he can only rush for 600 yards a season? Is he valuable? Not the way he passes. He needs to rush for 1,000/yr every year to have a great year. Running backs can't break 1k/season without injury after 4-5 years. He's not built like a RB. 

 

He needs an above average D, a great run game, and personally needs to run for 80 yards a game to be effective. 

 

Lamar is 23. When he hits 30 you can worry about whether he will be able to run. Until then I don't see it stopping. He is the best running QB we have ever seen. Only Vick is even close.

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On 9/29/2020 at 6:06 AM, Shaw66 said:

I've said since the beginning of the year that I'm not buying the Lamar Jackson hype, and I'm not buying the Kyler Murray hype, either.   I know they are really special athletes, and they're a couple of the best running backs in the league, but they limit their offenses.  

 

The problem with Jackson is related to something McDermott (and plenty of other coaches) say all the time:  You have to force the opponent to defend the entire field - sideline to sideline and line of scrimmage to the goal line.  The reason is simple:  If you can threaten to strike anyplace on the field, the defense has to spread out to defend all those places.  When the defense spreads out, they create holes for the offense to attack. 

 

You could see the problem almost immediately last night.  One on side of the ball was a team, the Chiefs, that is perhaps the best in the league at attacking the whole field.  They will hurt you anyplace you leave unprotected.  The Ravens started out playing the game no more than 30 yards downfield, and as the game progress, they didn't even threaten that deep.  The defense tightened and tightened.  Sure, Jackson kept getting himself some nice runs here and there, but they essentially give up the ability to get 100-200 passing downfield to get an extra 50 or 100 out of Jackson.  That's a bad trade.  

 

The other thing that was apparent is that to be a premier QB, you MUST be able to stand in the pocket and direct the attack.  You can't run an effective, all-over-the-field passing attack from outside the hash marks.  Why?  Because you can't threaten deep passes down the right side if your QB is standing outside the left hashmark.  (Well, you can if your QB is Josh Allen, but that's something else.)   Your QB has to be able to stand in, see the entire field, make decisions, and then make throws.   Jackson couldn't do that last night.  If he's going to make it, he has a lot of work to do as a pocket passer.   But even that may not be enough, because if you're going to feature your QB running the ball, you need your receiver to stay shallow to block for him.  So in your regular offense, your receivers aren't running deep routes, so the deep threat isn't there.  

 

It was all pretty obvious watching last night.   Mahomes stands in the pocket, makes decisions and makes throws.   Jackson doesn't.  Jackson will not be a premier QB if he doesn't learn to play that traditional QB game.  He's way, way behind Josh Allen in developing those skills.  Allen plays much more like Mahomes than like Jackson.  McBeane have always said he was going to be a pocket passer.  They've been working on making him one since he arrived in Buffalo.  Baltimore went down the other road, building an offense that plays to Jackson's strengths, but that is an offense that by definition is limited.  I think they're wasting their time.   Jackson will hurt some teams sometimes, he'll force your defense to play a different style than their used to, but at the end of the season, Baltimore's offense will limit their ability to win big games.  

 

Finally, to bring it back to Allen and the Bills, Mahomes wasn't doing anything last night that Allen doesn't do.  Allen has the better arm, clearly, Mahomes is more poised and more able to attack weaknesses consistently - that's clear too.  What's so encouraging is that Allen can learn to be a great field general, but good as Mahomes arm is, he can't learn to throw like Josh.  

 

Bills are heading down the right road. 

 

 

 

 

If we lose, it’s your fault @Shaw66

i thought that to myself when you made this post.  Been thinking about it since Sunday.  
 

I propose that you change your name to JuJuShawSchuster or leave the board forever if we lose.  

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On 12/15/2020 at 3:23 PM, BillsToast said:

 

Much of this is true, but the Lamar era ends next year. Which GM wants to pay him $30 mil for a guy on his physical downside and needs that physicality just be good or decent? He won't have games like last night in 4 years from today. 

 

This is his window, he's earned it. He should be praised and he should be enjoyed. He's a great player, one of the greatest we've seen, but we have to recognize he's a short window athlete heading towards the end of greatness relatively fast. It's just a shame guys like him and great RBs won't be rewarded in FA anymore. He'll be a millionaire if he can save now, but I doubt he'll get top 10 starter money by the end of next year. If they pick up his 5th year option it's just to get meat from the bones.

Michael Vick had his best season at 30.  

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20 minutes ago, NewEra said:

If we lose, it’s your fault @Shaw66

i thought that to myself when you made this post.  Been thinking about it since Sunday.  
 

I propose that you change your name to JuJuShawSchuster or leave the board forever if we lose.  

The thread that will not die.  I feel like Roman Castavet.

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4 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

The thread that will not die.  I feel like Roman Castavet.

At least you don’t feel like Juju.  I hope you never do 

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On 12/16/2020 at 2:07 PM, GunnerBill said:

 

Lamar is 23. When he hits 30 

 

It's less about his age, and more about years played in his style.

 

Running quarterbacks don't last.

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48 minutes ago, NewEra said:

Michael Vick had his best season at 30.  

 

For several reasons:

1. Reid was his coach

2. His passes were significantly more accurate in Reid's system

3. He didn't play for a couple of years

 

In other words you can't compare them unless you want to sit Jackson for 2 years and hope he makes it to 30 and Vick was out for most of the season when he was younger from injury. 

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27 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

It's less about his age, and more about years played in his style.

 

Running quarterbacks don't last.

Like who?  Rg3?  Who else?  

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19 minutes ago, QCity said:

 

It's less about his age, and more about years played in his style.

 

Running quarterbacks don't last.

 

But Lamar is not just another running Quarterback. It was my point in this thread and it remains my point to this day. Comparing him to Kaepernick or Tyrod or Tim Tebow or whoever else is asinine. The only guy who is close to comparable as an athlete at the Quarterback position is Michael Vick who before the age of 32 went 58-37 as an NFL starting Quarterback and that was missing two prime years through suspension. It was also in an era where NFL teams tried to force guys like Vick to fit into the prototype in a way Baltimore is not forcing on Lamar.

 

I accept there is likely a ceiling with Lamar Jackson's style of play. I didn't want him here in Buffalo but if people think he is just gonna get figured out and disappear some time soon cos that is what happened to Kaepernick they are barking up entirely the wrong tree. This kid is one of the best athletes to ever play in the NFL and even this year when everything he can do was surely on tape he ran for 1,000 yards and 7 scores, threw 26 passes to 9 picks and helped his team win 11 games.

 

He might not last the way Brady or Brees have... but for the next 7 or 8 years? Yea, he is gonna be a problem for teams to defend.

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1 minute ago, BillsToast said:

 

For several reasons:

1. Reid was his coach

2. His passes were significantly more accurate in Reid's system

3. He didn't play for a couple of years

 

In other words you can't compare them unless you want to sit Jackson for 2 years and hope he makes it to 30 and Vick was out for most of the season when he was younger from injury. 

Which great running QBs only last a couple years?  Rg3 and who?

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2 minutes ago, BillsToast said:

 

For several reasons:

1. Reid was his coach

2. His passes were significantly more accurate in Reid's system

3. He didn't play for a couple of years

 

In other words you can't compare them unless you want to sit Jackson for 2 years and hope he makes it to 30 and Vick was out for most of the season when he was younger from injury. 

 

Quarterbacks get injured in the pocket more than they do running. 

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