I just got a speeding ticket in a school zone. Is it worth fighting?

[LeviF]

Don't EVER plead guilty to a speeding ticket.  Depending on where you are there's a whole process for the state to basically collect court surcharges (plus a little extra for the county) with no points on your license.  Some places you show up to court on the day indicated on your ticket and the prosecutor will sit down and say "ok plead guilty to parking on pavement there's no points judge will tell you your fine" or you might have to show up a few times after pleading not guilty the day of.  Sometimes the cop who wrote you will drop by the 2nd or 3rd court date and talk with the prosecutor (seems like that's what he's indicated) and work out a lesser, probably non-moving, violation for you to settle on and pony up some cash (much less than your speeding ticket would have been).

 

All that fails, you can go have your day in court with a little trial for your moving violation.  If the officer doesn't show up - you win!  If he does show up, there's all sorts of stuff the state has to prove in order to make their case.  Why would you gift them anything?  Our legal system is set up to help defendants more than anyone else.

 

Way too many good outcomes to showing up and pleading not guilty.  

 

Edit: as mentioned downthread this advice is for NYS ONLY.  Other states have a different way of doing things.

Edited September 16, 2020 by LeviF91

[Steve O]

12 hours ago, Not at the table Karlos said:

Brother had a cop say the same thing. Was a small town and only people that had court that day was my brother and another guy. She tried to talk to my brother before court and when he said he was pleading not guilty she threatened him with a bunch of bullstuff charges. I chimed in saying that’s illegal and she threatened me with arrest. I started recording her and she lost her mind. 
 

 

NEVER EVER BELIEVE A POLICE OFFICER. THEY ARE NOT HERE TO HELP YOU. THEY ARE NOT HERE TO SERVE OR PROTECT. Always record any interaction. Be polite but you have rights and they’re just here to provide a revenue stream for the state. 

That's unfortunate. Most cops are decent and will treat you respectfully so long as they are treated that way. I've gotten out of two tickets where I was clearly in the wrong by rolling down my window and putting my arms out, then being nice (very nice) to the cop when he got to the car (male cop both times.) As in any position that affords one with power, there are a few folks that let that power go to their heads. If this has been your only interaction with the police I can understand how it would shape your opinion on them in general.

[NoSaint]

5 minutes ago, Steve O said:

That's unfortunate. Most cops are decent and will treat you respectfully so long as they are treated that way. I've gotten out of two tickets where I was clearly in the wrong by rolling down my window and putting my arms out, then being nice (very nice) to the cop when he got to the car (male cop both times.) As in any position that affords one with power, there are a few folks that let that power go to their heads. If this has been your only interaction with the police I can understand how it would shape your opinion on them in general.

So if it were just a tiny number that’d be one thing. And if the ones not doing it were fast to fill out reports on the ones causing issues it’d also go a long way. 
 

I get it- most are good. Many are great. Plenty are inconsistent at best and enforcing laws/policies that aren’t perfect. Few are actively monsters. 
 

But to pretend the issue is a matter of “you just got the very rare bad experience” ends up sounding condescending 

[LeviF]

48 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

So if it were just a tiny number that’d be one thing. And if the ones not doing it were fast to fill out reports on the ones causing issues it’d also go a long way. 
 

I get it- most are good. Many are great. Plenty are inconsistent at best and enforcing laws/policies that aren’t perfect. Few are actively monsters. 
 

But to pretend the issue is a matter of “you just got the very rare bad experience” ends up sounding condescending 

 

Well when you're responding to someone whose post has a very distinct "that happened" tone you only have a choice between a few attitudes and condescension is probably the nicest of them.

[shrader]

I'm not really sure on why a thread about whether or not to contest a speeding ticket has to turn into this garbage.

[DrDawkinstein]

For every ticket I've received in NYS, I ALWAYS plead not guilty and go to court. And EVERY TIME, they reduce it to other types of tickets, no points, pay a fine... but you'll probably have to take the 6-hour course (if that is still a thing).

 

Especially is you get a ticket on the highway. Go to court and they reduce it to something where the town keeps the money instead of sending it to the state.

 

I learned the hard way that other states do it differently. No such luck in Ohio and Georgia. But NY, absolutely plead not guilty and go to court. If the cop already said he'd help you out then you WILL get it reduced.

 

 

Edited September 16, 2020 by DrDawkinstein

[LeviF]

2 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

I learned the hard way that other states do it differently. No such luck in Ohio and Georgia. But NY, absolutely plead not guilty and go to court. 

 

 

Yes, forgot to mention that before.  NY is a different animal than other places.

[DrDawkinstein]

Just now, LeviF91 said:

 

Yes, forgot to mention that before.  NY is a different animal than other places.

 

Ha, yeah. My first ticket in GA I automatically plead not guilty and went to court. Showed up and waited all day in court for my turn, they call me up and say "Ok, if you say you arent guilty, what is your proof you werent speeding?". I was like "Uhhh, dont you reduce it just for me showing up? Fine, I'm guilty."

 

lol, good ol NY

[LeviF]

Just now, DrDawkinstein said:

 

Ha, yeah. My first ticket in GA I automatically plead not guilty and went to court. Showed up and waited all day in court for my turn, they call me up and say "Ok, if you say you arent guilty, what is your proof you werent speeding?". I was like "Uhhh, dont you reduce it just for me showing up? Fine, I'm guilty."

 

lol, good ol NY

 

"Gee, counselor, didn't realize it was guilty until proven innocent here!"

 

Course that wouldn't get you any help.  Does GA have a point system similar to NY or is it just a sliding scale fine depending on how fast you're going?

[DrDawkinstein]

2 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

 

"Gee, counselor, didn't realize it was guilty until proven innocent here!"

 

Course that wouldn't get you any help.  Does GA have a point system similar to NY or is it just a sliding scale fine depending on how fast you're going?

 

It was 12 years ago now (knock on wood), but I believe it's both? Points on your license and a sliding fine scale. If that's what you are asking.

 

The weird thing here is the Nolo Contendre plea, which is what I ended up doing. It's not really a plea either way. Neither "Guilty" nor "Not Guilty". But certainly confusing...

 

Quote

Pleas

 

If you plead guilty or nolo contendere in court, your fine could be up to $1,000, and you could be required to serve up to 12 months for state law violations or six months for local ordinance violations in jail or on probation. If you are sentenced to probation, you may also be required to pay a monthly probation supervision fee.

 

Pleading Guilty to a Traffic Offense

If you plead guilty to a traffic offense, points may be assessed on your license. A guilty plea to a moving violation will be reported to the Department of Driver Services (DDS) as required by law, and the guilty plea will appear on your driving record.

 

Pleading Nolo Contendere to a Traffic Offense

You may plead nolo contendere (no contest) to a traffic offense, but only if you have not entered a nolo contendere plea to another traffic offense in the last five years. The judge has discretion whether to accept a nolo contendere plea.

 

A nolo contendere plea to a moving violation will be reported to Department of Driver Services (DDS) as required by law, and the nolo contendere plea will appear on your driving record. The difference between a nolo plea and a guilty plea is that a nolo plea does not result in points against your license.

 

However, since you are allowed only one nolo plea every five years, if you plead nolo to this citation and you have another nolo on your record from the last five years, DDS will consider this nolo contendere plea a guilty plea and points may be assessed against your license. Remember: if you enter a nolo contendere plea, you can not plead nolo again to any traffic violation for the next five years.

 

[apuszczalowski]

7 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Because just like drug dealers, the government would kill it's customers and run out of people.  Everybody would  be walking. 

 

I guess  that's safety after all!

but how do you get a parking violation for speeding? they couldn't be more opposite, lol

I know many may get the charge knocked down to say you were caught going less then you actually were which makes sense to give a break (They may say you were going 10 over instead of 20)

[DrDawkinstein]

51 minutes ago, apuszczalowski said:

but how do you get a parking violation for speeding? they couldn't be more opposite, lol

I know many may get the charge knocked down to say you were caught going less then you actually were which makes sense to give a break (They may say you were going 10 over instead of 20)

 

$$$$

 

Where the money for the fines goes changes based on the charge.

 

Example:

I get pulled over on the 90 by a NYS Trooper between the Hamburg and Blasdell exits.

I plead Not Guilty, and get a court date at Hamburg Town Court (since that is where the ticket was technically written).

If they keep the speeding charge, my fine $ goes to NYS.

If they knock it down to 3 parking tickets, Hamburg gets that $ instead.

 

 

[BillnutinHouston]

I've tried fighting a ticket based on multiple errors made on the ticket itself.

 

I had the officer lie on the stand, and alter his copy of the ticket before the court date.  Who do you think the judge believed?

 

You have a mountain of factors against you.  Pay it and move on. 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

3 hours ago, BillnutinHouston said:

I've tried fighting a ticket based on multiple errors made on the ticket itself.

 

I had the officer lie on the stand, and alter his copy of the ticket before the court date.  Who do you think the judge believed?

 

You have a mountain of factors against you.  Pay it and move on. 

 

True.  But if everybody drove up the cost of doing business.   Get continuance, etc... It could clog the courts, cost  them money and put a crimp on the traffic  court scam of justice.  BUT, it will cost you  your time.  They government knows that, why they don't make fines too oppressive.

 

Everybody enters the racket, they keep you on a leash.  Friends and family in the club get a pass.  Epitome of crooked government. 

 

Why not move to a non-monetary system.  That would  actually promote safety.  That will never  happen,  because they actually have to do something with you, like community service.   Easier for them to bust into your bankbook and  take food off a family's table because somebody made a mistake.  That's  the revolving door where the real money is.

[Niagara Bill]

I am surprised by the number of people who say fight...based on what principle.

Do you think school zones are against your rights and civil liberties. Is it unconstitutional.

You may have endangered young children. Ask the parents who hace kids in this area. Take it as a lesson. Pay the penalty and pledge to yourself to be a more careful citizen. And call the police chief and report the cowardly cop who just actually told you not to respect the law. 

Just another point of view.

 

[oldmanfan]

This may be an old fashioned concept, but what about taking responsibility for your actions, realizing you were wrong, and paying the penalty?

[SoTier]

On 9/15/2020 at 7:58 AM, Brennan Huff said:

33 in 15. I didn’t realize it was 15 but I probably should have. I know I should at least go to traffic court but should I get a lawyer? Any help would be appreciated 

 

Have you gotten other speeding tix?  If not, definitely go to traffic court and take their offer for paying $150 or so for a parking ticket which will not count as a moving violation and save you $$ on your insurance going forward, especially if you have a safe driver discount now.   Most local traffic courts are more than willing to deal speeding tix down to parking tix for drivers who aren't frequent violators because all of the parking ticket money stays locally while moving violation ticket monies are split with NYS.   Been there, done that.

 

 

[SoTier]

On 9/15/2020 at 11:33 AM, shrader said:

Is the school even open?  I'm not sure whether or not that matters, but I'm curious.

 

During the school year, you have to obey school zone rules.  Most school zone speed zone signs also say "between 7 and 4 on school days" or similar.  That means Monday through Friday except on legal holidays like Columbus Day or Thanksgiving break.   Some school zones have flashing lights during school hours and signs say "speed limit 20 mph when flashing".  Unfortunately,  I've seen those lights not flashing when the school was obviously in session and sometimes flashing on weekends.  

[LeviF]

17 minutes ago, Niagara Bill said:

I am surprised by the number of people who say fight...based on what principle.

Do you think school zones are against your rights and civil liberties. Is it unconstitutional.

You may have endangered young children. Ask the parents who hace kids in this area. Take it as a lesson. Pay the penalty and pledge to yourself to be a more careful citizen. And call the police chief and report the cowardly cop who just actually told you not to respect the law. 

Just another point of view.

 

 

12 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

This may be an old fashioned concept, but what about taking responsibility for your actions, realizing you were wrong, and paying the penalty?

 

Is this the advice you'd give a family member or child of yours if they got caught up in something really bad and charged with multiple felonies?  "Yes, junior, just tell the nice prosecutor everything that happened and pay the penalty of the next 20 years of your life.  Really make sure they throw the book at you in the name of your citizenship."

 

The American justice system works a certain way (for high crimes and misdemeanors as well as traffic violations) for a reason.  He most likely will pay a penalty for his actions - it just won't be the penalty codified in the NYS VTL under what he actually did.  The guilty plea to a lesser charge serves as a penalty to him for the actions that resulted in a ticket and as a cost savings to the municipality in which he committed the violation.

 

You can accept responsibility without completely falling on your sword.  This binary "accept the points on your license, the $600 fine, the $300 DMV fee for the points, 15 days in jail, and an increase in your insurance rates for the next 7 years or else you're a terrible person" line is a lazy take.

[BarleyNY]

On 9/15/2020 at 8:59 AM, Steve O said:

Then that's what you should do, without a lawyer. 

Agreed.  Show up and you may get it knocked down to non-moving violations.  You’ll pay a fine, the city will get their cash and you won’t have points driving up your insurance rates.  
 

Shortly after moving to Buffalo I got a ticket in the speed trap on 290.  I paid it.  The wife got a much worse speeding ticket a year or so later.  Much worse speeding violation in a different part of town (Cheektowaga I think). She went to court.  It took time but it was an easy process that almost everyone who showed up got to go through.  Tickets were knocked down to non moving violations and fines and court costs were paid.
 

One last piece of advice.  She dressed very nicely that day - and got busted in an Audi.  She paid a much higher fine than anyone else she saw go through.  Still, it was way better than it would’ve been.  So dress respectfully but not too nice. 

[SoTier]

On 9/15/2020 at 11:11 PM, ExiledInIllinois said:

Yeah.  Traffic court is a sham.  Nothing but a money  maker.  If it was truly  about safety, they wouldn't  punish monetarily.  What does paying out have to do with driving safe? It just gets  people more pissed off and they double next time.  The ones  that suffer at the hands  of this sham the most are the ones that can  least afford  it.  Working families are being pinched. The gov't is stealing  money  from  their table in the name of safety.  Anybody can always hide behind safety.

 

So, what should happen to somebody who speeds or runs stop signs or breaks other traffic laws?  Should he/she be jailed?  Should we abandon all traffic rules?   Fines are a reasonable balance between both extremes.   Since driving is a necessity for most Americans, taking away a driver's license would be a far bigger penalty than a couple of hundred dollar fine.

 

 

[shrader]

50 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

During the school year, you have to obey school zone rules.  Most school zone speed zone signs also say "between 7 and 4 on school days" or similar.  That means Monday through Friday except on legal holidays like Columbus Day or Thanksgiving break.   Some school zones have flashing lights during school hours and signs say "speed limit 20 mph when flashing".  Unfortunately,  I've seen those lights not flashing when the school was obviously in session and sometimes flashing on weekends.  

 

That's not really the question though.  It's the COVID question.  If school is open, but everyone is remote, are those school zones still in effect?  I guess I might as well be asking about a tree falling in the woods with no one around.  I could see a technicality being used to argue either direction on this one.

 

But then again, if the school in question was actually open with students, that settles this question.

[Brennan Huff]

1 hour ago, SoTier said:

 

Have you gotten other speeding tix?  If not, definitely go to traffic court and take their offer for paying $150 or so for a parking ticket which will not count as a moving violation and save you $$ on your insurance going forward, especially if you have a safe driver discount now.   Most local traffic courts are more than willing to deal speeding tix down to parking tix for drivers who aren't frequent violators because all of the parking ticket money stays locally while moving violation ticket monies are split with NYS.   Been there, done that.

 

 

I think this is the 3rd one I’ve had in the 22 years I’ve had my license. 2nd one in 4 years though. I just had to buy a Mustang...

[SoTier]

5 minutes ago, shrader said:

 

That's not really the question though.  It's the COVID question.  If school is open, but everyone is remote, are those school zones still in effect?  I guess I might as well be asking about a tree falling in the woods with no one around.  I could see a technicality being used to argue either direction on this one.

 

But then again, if the school in question was actually open with students, that settles this question.

 

I would rather be safe than sorry, so I just assume that school zone rules are in effect Monday through Friday.

 

4 minutes ago, Brennan Huff said:

I think this is the 3rd one I’ve had in the 22 years I’ve had my license. 2nd one in 4 years though. I just had to buy a Mustang...

 

It's still worth going to court to see if you can get a deal IMO.

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, LeviF91 said:

 

 

Is this the advice you'd give a family member or child of yours if they got caught up in something really bad and charged with multiple felonies?  "Yes, junior, just tell the nice prosecutor everything that happened and pay the penalty of the next 20 years of your life.  Really make sure they throw the book at you in the name of your citizenship."

 

The American justice system works a certain way (for high crimes and misdemeanors as well as traffic violations) for a reason.  He most likely will pay a penalty for his actions - it just won't be the penalty codified in the NYS VTL under what he actually did.  The guilty plea to a lesser charge serves as a penalty to him for the actions that resulted in a ticket and as a cost savings to the municipality in which he committed the violation.

 

You can accept responsibility without completely falling on your sword.  This binary "accept the points on your license, the $600 fine, the $300 DMV fee for the points, 15 days in jail, and an increase in your insurance rates for the next 7 years or else you're a terrible person" line is a lazy take.

If my child committed multiple felonies we’d have a lawyer represent her, and if she was found guilty she’d have to pay the penalty and go to prison.  And if she sped through a school zone dhe’d Pay the appropriate fine.  

56 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

So, what should happen to somebody who speeds or runs stop signs or breaks other traffic laws?  Should he/she be jailed?  Should we abandon all traffic rules?   Fines are a reasonable balance between both extremes.   Since driving is a necessity for most Americans, taking away a driver's license would be a far bigger penalty than a couple of hundred dollar fine.

 

 

God forbid people have the integrity to be accountable for their actions.

[Greybeard]

13 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

Why not move to a non-monetary system.  That would  actually promote safety.  That will never  happen,  because they actually have to do something with you, like community service.   Easier for them to bust into your bankbook and  take food off a family's table because somebody made a mistake.  That's  the revolving door where the real money is.

             What are you suggesting?  5 lashes, a day in jail?

 

        I have an elementary school behind me.  Kids are being dropped off or picked up all day long.  The school is on a residential street not a main drag.  I guess it being residential means no flashing light. I slow down to at least 15 during school hours.   There is no way I would want to hit a kid and you can never tell what a kid will do.  That includes him holding his parent's hand along side of a road.  School limits are about safety.

[DrDawkinstein]

53 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

If my child committed multiple felonies we’d have a lawyer represent her, and if she was found guilty she’d have to pay the penalty and go to prison.  And if she sped through a school zone dhe’d Pay the appropriate fine.  

God forbid people have the integrity to be accountable for their actions.

 

And if the lawyer came back and said the court is offering a plea deal for a reduced fine and sentence, would you deny the deal and ask for the full punishment since your kid should "have the integrity to be accountable for their actions"?

 

[LeviF]

55 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

If my child committed multiple felonies we’d have a lawyer represent her, and if she was found guilty she’d have to pay the penalty and go to prison.  And if she sped through a school zone dhe’d Pay the appropriate fine.  

 

 

So why should the OP use the options he has built into the system any less than your child would?  Pleading not guilty should be the default to ANY charge.  The burden is entirely on the state to prove their case, whether you allegedly murdered someone or you allegedly parked in such a way that you blocked the path of a street sweeper going by at 3 in the morning or anything in between.  If the OP and the state find a middle ground between max penalty to the alleged violation and no penalty that's amenable to both sides, what's that to you?

[Niagara Bill]

2 hours ago, LeviF91 said:

 

 

Is this the advice you'd give a family member or child of yours if they got caught up in something really bad and charged with multiple felonies?  "Yes, junior, just tell the nice prosecutor everything that happened and pay the penalty of the next 20 years of your life.  Really make sure they throw the book at you in the name of your citizenship."

 

The American justice system works a certain way (for high crimes and misdemeanors as well as traffic violations) for a reason.  He most likely will pay a penalty for his actions - it just won't be the penalty codified in the NYS VTL under what he actually did.  The guilty plea to a lesser charge serves as a penalty to him for the actions that resulted in a ticket and as a cost savings to the municipality in which he committed the violation.

 

You can accept responsibility without completely falling on your sword.  This binary "accept the points on your license, the $600 fine, the $300 DMV fee for the points, 15 days in jail, and an increase in your insurance rates for the next 7 years or else you're a terrible person" line is a lazy take.

This is not a lazy Take!....sometimes you should just admit you are wrong and move on. This is hardly falling on a sword ( just a little dramatic)...it is a lesson, no one got hurt by good luck. You sound so angry about a little ticket, I hope you are just as angry when someone really gets hurt because of this violation.

Suck it up cupcake and confess, it is good for the soul. You should have thought of all the costs before driving the car.

[Teddy KGB]

15 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

True.  But if everybody drove up the cost of doing business.   Get continuance, etc... It could clog the courts, cost  them money and put a crimp on the traffic  court scam of justice.  BUT, it will cost you  your time.  They government knows that, why they don't make fines too oppressive.

 

Everybody enters the racket, they keep you on a leash.  Friends and family in the club get a pass.  Epitome of crooked government. 

 

Why not move to a non-monetary system.  That would  actually promote safety.  That will never  happen,  because they actually have to do something with you, like community service.   Easier for them to bust into your bankbook and  take food off a family's table because somebody made a mistake.  That's  the revolving door where the real money is.

Nurse, bring the meds.   

[oldmanfan]

1 hour ago, DrDawkinstein said:

 

And if the lawyer came back and said the court is offering a plea deal for a reduced fine and sentence, would you deny the deal and ask for the full punishment since your kid should "have the integrity to be accountable for their actions"?

 

No because that is what the court recommended.  Accountability and punishment would still be involved.  For the OP if the police officer comes to court and indicates a less severe ticket is appropriate and the judge agrees, also fine.  

1 hour ago, LeviF91 said:

 

So why should the OP use the options he has built into the system any less than your child would?  Pleading not guilty should be the default to ANY charge.  The burden is entirely on the state to prove their case, whether you allegedly murdered someone or you allegedly parked in such a way that you blocked the path of a street sweeper going by at 3 in the morning or anything in between.  If the OP and the state find a middle ground between max penalty to the alleged violation and no penalty that's amenable to both sides, what's that to you?

The OP was 20 miles over the limit in a school zone and he knows it.  To say you are not guilty is absurd.  If the police officer comes to court and tells the judge he’s OK with a lower fine, OK by me.  Trying to get away from a fine for something you know you did wrong is ridiculous.

[LeviF]

5 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

 

The OP was 20 miles over the limit in a school zone and he knows it.  To say you are not guilty is absurd.  If the police officer comes to court and tells the judge he’s OK with a lower fine, OK by me. 

 

The scenario you describe cannot happen if OP pleads guilty by mail or before the judge to the alleged violation.

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, LeviF91 said:

 

The scenario you describe cannot happen if OP pleads guilty by mail or before the judge to the alleged violation.

Then maybe he should just realize he was wrong and pay the ticket.

[Just Jack]

11 hours ago, shrader said:

 

That's not really the question though.  It's the COVID question.  If school is open, but everyone is remote, are those school zones still in effect?  I guess I might as well be asking about a tree falling in the woods with no one around.  I could see a technicality being used to argue either direction on this one.

 

But then again, if the school in question was actually open with students, that settles this question.

 

There's so many different routines with the schools around here, better to be safe than sorry. Is this a school doing all remote? Or is it half class sizes? Was it just morning classes, or just afternoons? Is it Wednesday when everyone is remote? 

[Golden Goat]

Unfortunately, I get tickets often, so I pay a monthly fee for Prepaid Legal. The ONLY thing it's good for is speeding tickets. I make one call, forward documentation and send a money order. No points, no record -- nada.

[DrDawkinstein]

27 minutes ago, Golden Goat said:

Unfortunately, I get tickets often, so I pay a monthly fee for Prepaid Legal. The ONLY thing it's good for is speeding tickets. I make one call, forward documentation and send a money order. No points, no record -- nada.

 

Ha! I gotta ask, what are you driving?

[ExiledInIllinois]

12 hours ago, SoTier said:

 

So, what should happen to somebody who speeds or runs stop signs or breaks other traffic laws?  Should he/she be jailed?  Should we abandon all traffic rules?   Fines are a reasonable balance between both extremes.   Since driving is a necessity for most Americans, taking away a driver's license would be a far bigger penalty than a couple of hundred dollar fine.

 

 

How about community service?

[Golden Goat]

9 minutes ago, DrDawkinstein said:

Ha! I gotta ask, what are you driving?

 

Genesis sedan.

[ExiledInIllinois]

10 hours ago, Greybeard said:

             What are you suggesting?  5 lashes, a day in jail?

 

        I have an elementary school behind me.  Kids are being dropped off or picked up all day long.  The school is on a residential street not a main drag.  I guess it being residential means no flashing light. I slow down to at least 15 during school hours.   There is no way I would want to hit a kid and you can never tell what a kid will do.  That includes him holding his parent's hand along side of a road.  School limits are about safety.

I more less talking about the general racket.

[DrDawkinstein]

6 minutes ago, Golden Goat said:

 

Genesis sedan.

 

Ahh, those things have stealth speed.

 

Although, I guess not so stealthy from the sound of it!