Sando's Annual QB Tiers (voted on by 50 NFL coaches and "evaluators")

[GoBills808]

59 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

Watson "carries his team on his back every week" and "has no holes in his game"??  Come on...

 

Here's a hole: "elite #1 WR".  Even with Hopkins, Watson ran a mediocre Offense.

Carries his team on his back @ 16th in the league for attempts...

[Mr. WEO]

19 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

He has carried them plenty. Maybe not every week.... but most weeks he is their most important player. The lack of 300 yard passing days last year was at least in part on BO'B who wants to run the ball more. He just traded away an elite receiver for a darn running back! He had five 300 yard passing games in 2018 and two in 6 starts in 2017 as a rookie.

 

I think that is fair. I think he is almost in a no man's land between tier 1 and tier 2. I think he is in the right position in the list at #5. Whether he is in the right tier.... that is debateable.

 

 

I think then, if your coach's Offensive philosophy is of not asking you to carry the team, you aren't.   Watson goes solidly into tier 2, as he cannot be compared with the 5 guys in tier 1 based on what he has actually achieved in the league so far.

 

In 2018, he 4 300 yard games in the first 5 weeks, yet  only 1 for the rest of the season.  He was a dud in the playoffs that year.

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Carries his team on his back @ 16th in the league for attempts...

 

That's not a heavy load...

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

 

I think then, if your coach's Offensive philosophy is of not asking you to carry the team, you aren't.   Watson goes solidly into tier 2, as he cannot be compared with the 5 guys in tier 1 based on what he has actually achieved in the league so far.

 

In 2018, he 4 300 yard games in the first 5 weeks, yet  only 1 for the rest of the season.  He was a dud in the playoffs that year.

 

That's not a heavy load...

I see zero justification for putting Watson over guys like Ryan and Prescott. And I'm not that high on Prescott.

[Malazan]

2 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

please Lamar get too much credit for having a good defense behind him and opposing defenses over reacting to his running threat. 
 

he is Tyrod 2.5.  
 

Let him play a few more years and let’s pass judgment then. 
 

 

This list isn't passing judgement on them a few years from now though...

 

  

32 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I see zero justification for putting Watson over guys like Ryan and Prescott. And I'm not that high on Prescott.

 

The other two guys don't BoB to deal with 

Edited July 27, 2020 by jeremy2020

[GoBills808]

10 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

The other two guys don't BoB to deal with 

Must have missed the ‘I don’t have a great coach’ Tier 1 caveat

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

47 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I see zero justification for putting Watson over guys like Ryan and Prescott. And I'm not that high on Prescott.

Somewhere @GunnerBill has one of his eyelids twitching uncontrollably.

 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Joe in Winslow said:

Somewhere @GunnerBill has one of his eyelids twitching uncontrollably.

 

 

My eyelids are fine. He is wrong. 

[C.Biscuit97]

47 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I see zero justification for putting Watson over guys like Ryan and Prescott. And I'm not that high on Prescott.

To recap.  You get super sensitive anyone says a negative word about Allen.  
 

but guys like Watson (career 256 passing yards per game, 67%, 71 passing tds to 21 ints, 101 rating and 14 rushing tds) and Dak, you’re not high on. 
 

you realize how insanely hypocritical you are coming across right?  Watson won that game in the 2nd half and had his team beating the SB champs (only 388 passing yards and 2 tds) before the defense melted down. 
 

Saying Watson isn’t really good is a really dumb take. 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

Somewhere @GunnerBill has one of his eyelids twitching uncontrollably.

 

Hard to ‘carry your team’ as a quarterback when half the league is throwing more passes than you imo

 

oh wait I’m ‘wrong’ lmfao

Just now, C.Biscuit97 said:

To recap.  You get super sensitive anyone says a negative word about Allen.  
 

but guys like Watson (career 256 passing yards per game, 67%, 71 passing tds to 21 ints, 101 rating and 14 rushing tds) and Dak, you’re not high on. 
 

you realize how insanely hypocritical you are coming across right?  Watson won that game in the 2nd half and had his team beating the SB champs (only 388 passing yards and 2 tds) before the defense melted down. 
 

Saying Watson isn’t really good is a really dumb take. 

This isn’t Allen vs Watson. You are projecting

[C.Biscuit97]

5 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

My eyelids are fine. He is wrong. 

Are there different standards this board has for evaluating non Bills qbs??? This is crazy town. 

Just now, GoBills808 said:

Hard to ‘carry your team’ as a quarterback when half the league is throwing more passes than you imo

 

oh wait I’m ‘wrong’ lmfao

This isn’t Allen vs Watson. You are projecting

I just showing you how terrible your tales are.  Zero rational facts or consistency. 

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Are there different standards this board has for evaluating non Bills qbs??? This is crazy town. 

I just showing you how terrible your tales are.  Zero rational facts or consistency. 

All you’re showing is you can’t read. I haven’t said a single word about Allen in this thread.

[C.Biscuit97]

1 minute ago, GoBills808 said:

All you’re showing is you can’t read. I haven’t said a single word about Allen in this thread.

All you are showing is you have zero idea how to evaluate Qbs. 

[GoBills808]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

All you are showing is you have zero idea how to evaluate Qbs. 

Please. Go through my posting history. I’m accurate on pretty much everything football related I write here. 
 

Your rabid Allen takes color your judgement as evidenced above. Our main point of contention is whether Watson should be above or below Matt Ryan and Dak Prescott, and suddenly you accuse me of ‘terrible’ takes and ‘zero ideas’ re: QBs.

 

Ask the guy you think agrees with you in @GunnerBill We might dispute some players here and there but I know what I’m talking about. You, on the other hand, are just embarrassing yourself.

[CorkScrewHill]

The board always complains when it is pundits ranking players and here is actual coaches and we want to critique. Note: this is not a which tier do I think they will be in 2023 article, it is based off of 2019. I think it is fair in general and of course some will prefer QB7 over QB6, but this is not an exact science so let it go. I think it does show that the league feels Josh is progressing (and given that he was a very raw prospect that is what you want to see) and it also shows that he has clearly not arrived. This year is huge for him and the team. he does not need to be a tier 1 quarterback this year, but he does need to climb into the discussion of tier 2.

 

As an aside, 1) Watson plays on a dysfunctional team and has been outstanding .. not certain how you can view him as anything but an upper-echelon QB; and 2) 1 great year is too small a sample size to say that Lamar will be upper echelon for the long-term, but he was clearly that in 2019.

===========

For Mr. Weo only since he thinks I am a Josh homer .. this is crazy .. Josh should be behind only Mahomes and  Russell Wilson .. this is an outrage

[Billl]

52 minutes ago, CorkScrewHill said:

1 great year is too small a sample size to say that Lamar will be upper echelon for the long-term, but he was clearly that in 2019

Lamar is 19-1 in his career when not playing against Pat Mahomes.  He’s great.

[GoBills808]

7 minutes ago, Billl said:

Lamar is 19-1 in his career when not playing against Pat Mahomes.  He’s great.

False

[Nester]

19 minutes ago, Billl said:

Lamar is 19-1 in his career when not playing against Pat Mahomes.  He’s great.

 

 

Did the Titans or the browns have a player named Mahomes now? 

 

They both beat Lamar last year. 

[GunnerBill]

19-1 must be regular season, right? Cos he has lost twice in the playoffs. 

[Rock'em Sock'em]

6 hours ago, DCOrange said:

19. Cam Newton

20. Carr

21. Baker

22. Josh Allen

 

Dang!  NE's backup QB is rated higher than our starter.

Edited July 27, 2020 by Rock'em Sock'em

[AlCowlingsTaxiService]

5 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

Sorry, but if I refuse to crown Lamar king after 2 seasons. 
 

as I said. Let’s see where he is in a few years. 
 

Is there some secret society of Lamar haters that I’m unaware of?  Seems to me a league MVP at age 23 is a fairly lofty accomplishment 

[Giuseppe Tognarelli]

6 hours ago, DCOrange said:

https://theathletic.com/1945894/2020/07/27/2020-quarterback-tiers-50-coaches-and-evaluators-rank-the-nfl-starters/

 

I didn't realize Sando had moved over to The Athletic, but he published his annual QB Tiers survey today where QBs are placed on 5 different tiers based on the votes of coaches and "evaluators".

 

Tier 1: A Tier 1 quarterback can carry his team each week. The team wins because of him. He expertly handles pure passing situations. He has no real holes in his game.

 

1. Mahomes/Wilson

3. Rodgers

4. Brees

5. Watson

 

Tier 2: A Tier 2 quarterback can carry his team sometimes but not as consistently. He can handle pure passing situations in doses and/or possesses other dimensions that are special enough to elevate him above Tier 3. He has a hole or two in his game.

 

6. Brady

7. Lamar

8. Big Ben

9. Stafford

10. Matt Ryan

11. Wentz

12. Dak

13. Rivers

 

Tier 3: A Tier 3 quarterback is a legitimate starter but needs a heavier running game and/or defensive component to win. A lower-volume dropback passing offense suits him best.

 

14. Kyler Murray

15. Cousins

16. Goff

17. Garoppolo

18. Tannehill

19. Cam Newton

20. Carr

21. Baker

22. Josh Allen

23. Bridgewater

24. Darnold

25. Daniel Jones

26. Nick Foles

 

Tier 4: A Tier 4 quarterback could be an unproven player with some upside or a veteran who is ultimately best suited as a backup.

 

27. Mariota

28. Fitzpatrick

29. Tyrod

30. Drew Lock/Gardner Minshew

32. Trubisky

33. Haskins

34. Stidham

35. Kyle Allen

 

On Josh Allen:

Vote Breakdown:

• Tier 2: 4
• Tier 3: 40
• Tier 4: 6

 

Why do we call Jackson, Prescott, Mayfield, and Taylor by their first names?

[Augie]

11 minutes ago, Gene1973 said:

 It's a real crap shoot if Allen will progress any further. I hope for Bills fan sanity that he does because 10 years of payoff meltdows like last season does't seem like fun.

 

I don’t see that at all. I fully expect him to continue to progress. He’s young and he was raw. He’s driven and works hard. My concern is whether he progresses enough over the next few years. I can’t answer that, but I’m hopeful and optimistic. 

[Augie]

21 hours ago, Gene1973 said:

 

A lot of NFL people seem to think what you are in year two is what you will most likely be for your career at the position.  Lots of Bills fans have ther fingers crossed Allen is not the typical case.

 

Aaron Shatz was on GR today and he thinks Alen is not SB winning QB like Mahomes and Likely Jackson.

 

Respectfully, Josh was not a typical case. He was not groomed in his early years or well coached at a big program in college. He missed much of his first year (which may have been a blessing, as it looked like an ugly downward spiral at that point and was much better upon return from injury). 

 

As for you are what you are in year 2 idea, Troy Aikman had a QB rating of 66.6 in year 2, then 86.7 in year three, and continued to get better. That’s how it’s supposed to work, QB’s get better as they learn they game and things slow down. 

 

I admit I was not a Josh fan coming out of college, but I’ll bet I’ve watched more of him in the NFL than some guy named Shatz. Josh is a natural leader, and he has all the physical talent in the world. Kelly and Marino were not SB winning QB’s, and Jackson hasn’t won one either. Jackson may get figured out, as I think the Bills did against him. 

 

Time will tell, but some guy from some website talking on some radio station isn’t going to sway me. I’m not 100% sold, but I’m optimistic. Just my two cents. 

 

 

.

Edited July 28, 2020 by Augie

[Malazan]

7 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

Must have missed the ‘I don’t have a great coach’ Tier 1 caveat

 

I mean if you run a race wearing 50lbs of weights that's more impressive than just running the race..

[GoBills808]

59 minutes ago, jeremy2020 said:

 

I mean if you run a race wearing 50lbs of weights that's more impressive than just running the race..

Is it more impressive than winning the race though?

[Punching Bag]

11 hours ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

please Lamar get too much credit for having a good defense behind him and opposing defenses over reacting to his running threat. 
 

he is Tyrod 2.5.  
 

Let him play a few more years and let’s pass judgment then. 
 

 

Is he Tyrod * 2.5 or Tyrod ^ 2.5 (to the power)? 

 

Lots of players are judged first year (Tyrod was) and before they went to Bills (Allen was) on this board.

[TheBrownBear]

I think it's fair if you look at the entirety of last season.  But I think his play during the second half of the season (notwithstanding the last 20 minutes in Houston), places him solidly in the 12-18 range of NFL QBs.  I feel like he's on the cusp of stardom if he can clean a few things up.

[SoCal Deek]

I’ll never understand Stafford. Here’s a guy who gets paid a fortune year after year and yet the Lions go absolutely nowhere! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile...no?

[GunnerBill]

13 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ll never understand Stafford. Here’s a guy who gets paid a fortune year after year and yet the Lions go absolutely nowhere! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile...no?

 

They'd have been even worse without him. 

[DCOrange]

24 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

I’ll never understand Stafford. Here’s a guy who gets paid a fortune year after year and yet the Lions go absolutely nowhere! Even a blind squirrel finds a nut once in awhile...no?

It's amazing what happens when you only have a couple good players each year. Still, despite having probably the worst running game in the league over the past 6 years and one of the worst defenses over the past 6 years, they have a winning record with Stafford as the starting QB.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

15 hours ago, Billl said:

Lamar is 19-1 in his career when not playing against Pat Mahomes.  He’s great.

 

Tell us how great he was in his 2 playoff games?

 

I think the term that comes to mind is Shut Down 

 

First the Chargers then the Titans.  

 

15 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

False

That  ^

8 hours ago, Limeaid said:

 

Is he Tyrod * 2.5 or Tyrod ^ 2.5 (to the power)? 

 

Lots of players are judged first year (Tyrod was) and before they went to Bills (Allen was) on this board.

 

TT was a 4 year backup and not a rookie when he came to Buffalo.  So it is a bit different.

 

Faker Mayfield was nearly crowned King 

 

Remember when ...

Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield is expected to have a big sophomore season, which makes him a hot bet to win the 2019 MVP award

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2019/09/06/cleveland-browns-baker-mayfield-second-best-odds-win-2019-mvp/#:~:text=Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield,the offseason and training camp.

 

[DCOrange]

5 minutes ago, SlimShady'sSpaceForce said:

 

Tell us how great he was in his 2 playoff games?

 

I think the term that comes to mind is Shut Down 

 

First the Chargers then the Titans.  

 

That  ^

 

TT was a 4 year backup and not a rookie when he came to Buffalo.  So it is a bit different.

 

Faker Mayfield was nearly crowned King 

 

Remember when ...

Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield is expected to have a big sophomore season, which makes him a hot bet to win the 2019 MVP award

https://dawgpounddaily.com/2019/09/06/cleveland-browns-baker-mayfield-second-best-odds-win-2019-mvp/#:~:text=Cleveland Browns quarterback Baker Mayfield,the offseason and training camp.

 

He was pretty good against Tennessee actually. No doubt the Chargers shut him down the prior year though.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, DCOrange said:

He was pretty good against Tennessee actually. No doubt the Chargers shut him down the prior year though.

 

They lost to Tennessee primarily because their Dline and inside backers got run over. 

[Billl]

Tennessee shut him down to the tune of 500+ yards of total offense despite the fact that his receivers couldn’t catch COVID in a bat buffet.

[Dont Stop Billeiving]

Think the assessment of Allen here is pretty fair. He was such a project entering the NFL and his development to this point has been awesome to watch. As others have said, I think it's reasonable to expect a jump to Tier 2 of this list for next year based on his potential and the increase in play-making talent around him. 

 

Anyone else surprised to see Watson in Tier 1? I don't think he belongs in the same list as Mahomes/Wilson/Rodgers/Brees. Top of Tier 2 sure, but I don't think he lives up to that Tier 1 checklist that was provided. Maybe I'm still a bit salty after our playoff loss, but I thought he looked very average and if not for those missed tackles on our part at the end (plus 4-5 other plays), it could have been a very different game. I'll be really interested to see how Watson performs without Nuk as well. 

 

Only other name I have an issue with is Carr ahead of Allen, Darnold, and Baker. I would put all of them ahead of Carr. I'm open to be convinced otherwise, but he's like the most uninspiring QB IMO (besides the obvious Trubisky/Kyle Allen/Petermans of the world). 

[GoBills808]

4 hours ago, DCOrange said:

He was pretty good against Tennessee actually. No doubt the Chargers shut him down the prior year though.

He was 19/37 for 222 and 2INTs to start the 4th quarter and the Ravens were down 28-6. He was pretty good in garbage time. He was very, very bad the rest of the game.

[Billl]

14 minutes ago, Dont Stop Billeiving said:

Think the assessment of Allen here is pretty fair. He was such a project entering the NFL and his development to this point has been awesome to watch. As others have said, I think it's reasonable to expect a jump to Tier 2 of this list for next year based on his potential and the increase in play-making talent around him. 

 

Anyone else surprised to see Watson in Tier 1? I don't think he belongs in the same list as Mahomes/Wilson/Rodgers/Brees. Top of Tier 2 sure, but I don't think he lives up to that Tier 1 checklist that was provided. Maybe I'm still a bit salty after our playoff loss, but I thought he looked very average and if not for those missed tackles on our part at the end (plus 4-5 other plays), it could have been a very different game. I'll be really interested to see how Watson performs without Nuk as well. 

 

Only other name I have an issue with is Carr ahead of Allen, Darnold, and Baker. I would put all of them ahead of Carr. I'm open to be convinced otherwise, but he's like the most uninspiring QB IMO (besides the obvious Trubisky/Kyle Allen/Petermans of the world). 

I would have flipped Lamar and Watson, but the list was pretty fair.

[DCOrange]

5 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He was 19/37 for 222 and 2INTs to start the 4th quarter and the Ravens were down 28-6. He was pretty good in garbage time. He was very, very bad the rest of the game.

 

He had somewhere between 6-8 drops, including at least 1 or 2 TDs and 1 of the INTs. All of his receivers basically turned into Dawson Knox for one game and the Ravens defense was dominated all game. The Bills and Steelers were really the only two teams that gave him a very hard time.

[GunnerBill]

21 minutes ago, Dont Stop Billeiving said:

 

Anyone else surprised to see Watson in Tier 1? I don't think he belongs in the same list as Mahomes/Wilson/Rodgers/Brees. Top of Tier 2 sure, but I don't think he lives up to that Tier 1 checklist that was provided. Maybe I'm still a bit salty after our playoff loss, but I thought he looked very average and if not for those missed tackles on our part at the end (plus 4-5 other plays), it could have been a very different game. I'll be really interested to see how Watson performs without Nuk as well. 

 

Has been discussed up thread that top of tier 2 is probably right at this point. I think he is in the right position in the list at #5. But probably should be top of tier 2 and not bottom of tier 1.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

He was 19/37 for 222 and 2INTs to start the 4th quarter and the Ravens were down 28-6. He was pretty good in garbage time. He was very, very bad the rest of the game.

 

Garbage Time sats.  Like Tyrod's "great games"