Buftex Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 11 hours ago, PromoTheRobot said: Unlike the NFL, the NHL values the Sabres in Buffalo. That said, there are interests that want a second NHL team in the Toronto area. Don't give then an opening. If that is true Promo (and I am not necessarily disagreeing with you) do we know if the NHL gave any thought to throwing the Pegulas a bone, and using Harbor Center/Keybank arena as one of the hub cities for their proposed return for the 2019-20 playoffs? It would seem to have an ideal set up...and we know Buffalo is a strong American NHL city. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buftex Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 10 hours ago, Doc said: Given the choice between the two, I’d have no problem with them selling the Sabres. With the caveat that the new owner(s) keep the team in Buffalo. But will anyone honor that? I know that Pegulas will. That is a pretty big caveat. I don't like this news, and the state of the Sabres is depressing... but some of the comments I see in reference to the Pegulas' ownership of the Sabres (not necessarily here, but on other social media platforms) seems pretty short sighted. They have made some bad decisions, and spent unwisely...but they have always had their heart in the right place..and that matters to me. What happened this week with the mass firings looks bad (especially the Rochester situation..that was going well), but are in some ways understandable. Virtually every money stream the Pegulas have has been very adversely affected by COVID19. The Sabres, who won't be playing for almost another year most likely, are a financial drain on them (no matter who is to blame for their foibles) when they can't afford it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan17 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 On 6/16/2020 at 8:00 PM, Lurker said: NFL = Money Machine NHL = Garage League Why people don't see this exact point. There is not a single NFL team valued under a billion dollars. While there is only four, maybe five teams in the league that are valued at just a little over a billion. Funny part is, the NY Rangers are the highest valued team in the NHL and they wouldn't make the NFLs list. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyBatty is alive Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 On 6/16/2020 at 5:27 PM, CNYfan said: I read in Barron's a few weeks back that Jerry Jones' energy company (CRK a Texas Oil Company) was a total flop. With annualized returns of -15% over the past 15 years (the exact figures escape me but one can probably find the article). The bonds were below junk grade, but the company was bailed out by asset purchases by the Federal Reserve. There's a guy who needs a taxpayer bailout. What? You do realize Jones bought CRK a few years ago, not 15 year ago. And no the Bonds are not below junk grade, just two days ago they just raised $500 in a new debt offering upsized due to demand from $400 million and S&P just placed Comstock ratings on watch with positive indication. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyBatty is alive Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 On 6/16/2020 at 5:33 PM, zonabb said: zero debt and being asset owners (in oil/gas) means they are on sound financial ground all around. Let's be honest, the Bills make money. And they paid cash for them and have zero stadium debt (why I have long stated and will continue to state that they are not in favor of a new stadium carrying that debt... imagine no fans this year and what that would mean if they were carrying $500M in stadium debt). Bills are fine and will always be fine in this market, it's just that the greedy owners like Jones and Kraft aren't fine with it, they want more profit. But they are profitable. I think they made a major mistake trying to get into other areas of sports with PS&E. They feel like deep pockets make them capable of anything but as I have also stated, this is a guy who is a geologist/rock jockey who was smart and made billions. She's a Houghton College grad who was waiting table in Olean and about to leave to be a fisherwoman in Alaska before the golden goose came along. She worked in oil and gas and she's in over head in sports and entertainment. PS&E was a loser and they apparently lost big, but again, just because you have billions doesn't guarantee success in other business ventures outside the one you made your millions. And by many accounts, she's not a leader or visionary, just a rich entitled micromanager. The Sabres are a problem, and although clearly a standalone LLC, they must be looking at the Bills as a way to keep the Sabres afloat and hopefully still profit. I wouldn't be the least bit shocked to find out that they're interest in the Bills was as a way to offset losses with the Sabres, who every single owner has claimed is a loser. Smart move for the same reasons as above... they have zero debt on either team or facility, which minimizes any losses. In the end, they are sitting on a football team that has appreciated in value significantly since they bought it, far more than oil and gas has. And when oil and gas inevitably increases in price due to global conflict and geopolitics or pure supply and demand, the Pegulas will drill baby drill and make their billions. In the end, all is well for them and always will be. That is certainly not true with oil sub $40 and nat gas below $2. Depending upon lifting costs and G&A, royalties etc for every cubic foot of gas or barrel of oil they produce they could be losing money, big time. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
oldmanfan Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 4 minutes ago, RoyBatty is alive said: That is certainly not true with oil sub $40 and nat gas below $2. Depending upon lifting costs and G&A, royalties etc for every cubic foot of gas or barrel of oil they produce they could be losing money, big time. Didn’t sell the vast majority of those interests? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
machine gun kelly Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 People interested in this topic should read the recent article, 20 minutes ago from the Olean Times (Chuck Pollock) about the Pegulas. I liked it. Way too much Kim bashing. I have someone close to me who works for the team who said very positive things about her as a boss. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RoyBatty is alive Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Just now, oldmanfan said: Didn’t sell the vast majority of those interests? I dont know their finances but they sold a ton to Aubrey McCelenon at American Energy and before that famous for Chesapeake Energy. Aubry had enough and committed suicide a few years ago and Chesapeake just went bankrupt following suit of American Energy. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Stampede Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 Yeah but do Beane and McDermott want to remain? Imagine they win this year. All of a sudden they become a power couple. Could go anywhere for top price. Better lock them up quickly Pegula. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 (edited) 9 hours ago, Buftex said: If that is true Promo (and I am not necessarily disagreeing with you) do we know if the NHL gave any thought to throwing the Pegulas a bone, and using Harbor Center/Keybank arena as one of the hub cities for their proposed return for the 2019-20 playoffs? It would seem to have an ideal set up...and we know Buffalo is a strong American NHL city. I thought Buffalo would be an excellent NHL hub. They have 3 NHL rinks all in one location. All with the necessary wiring for media, hotels and foodservice, plus world-class medical facilities just up Main St. But I've not heard Buffalo mentioned as a potential site. I'm going to say this just so you know where I stand. Saving the Bills gives the Pegulas a lifetime pass in my book. The Bills were as good as gone if not for them. I like the Sabres but I love the Bills, and they're still here. Better yet, they're good again. So they can royally eff-up the Sabres and I will still stand by them for the Bills. That's just my opinion. Edited June 18, 2020 by PromoTheRobot Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 21 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Yeah but do Beane and McDermott want to remain? Imagine they win this year. All of a sudden they become a power couple. Could go anywhere for top price. Better lock them up quickly Pegula. I'm not really worried about this at all, tbh Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 9 hours ago, Buftex said: That is a pretty big caveat. I don't like this news, and the state of the Sabres is depressing... but some of the comments I see in reference to the Pegulas' ownership of the Sabres (not necessarily here, but on other social media platforms) seems pretty short sighted. They have made some bad decisions, and spent unwisely...but they have always had their heart in the right place..and that matters to me. What happened this week with the mass firings looks bad (especially the Rochester situation..that was going well), but are in some ways understandable. Virtually every money stream the Pegulas have has been very adversely affected by COVID19. The Sabres, who won't be playing for almost another year most likely, are a financial drain on them (no matter who is to blame for their foibles) when they can't afford it. Yup. I have no idea why the Sabres suck since they've spent money everywhere to try and make things better. And I look at how everyone wanted Mike Babcock over Phil Housley a few years ago and he chose Toronto...and is now unemployed despite the wealth of talent that team had. If the Bills didn't have success, I'd concerned. And again I'd have no problem with them selling the Sabres and focusing on the Bills, but only if the Sabres are assured of not leaving town. 56 minutes ago, Buffalo_Stampede said: Yeah but do Beane and McDermott want to remain? Imagine they win this year. All of a sudden they become a power couple. Could go anywhere for top price. Better lock them up quickly Pegula. They'll pay them. And what better place to try and get a team their first SB win? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 47 minutes ago, Doc said: Yup. I have no idea why the Sabres suck since they've spent money everywhere to try and make things better. And I look at how everyone wanted Mike Babcock over Phil Housley a few years ago and he chose Toronto...and is now unemployed despite the wealth of talent that team had. If the Bills didn't have success, I'd concerned. And again I'd have no problem with them selling the Sabres and focusing on the Bills, but only if the Sabres are assured of not leaving town. They'll pay them. And what better place to try and get a team their first SB win? I, admittedly, don't follow hockey so i'm not sure what's going on with the Sabres but your point about Bills success is spot on. They clearly seem to know what they're doing on the football side.. I don't know too many teams people would choose as having a brighter future over the Buffalo Bills right now, especially if Allen can continue to develop. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
nucci Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 15 minutes ago, SCBills said: I, admittedly, don't follow hockey so i'm not sure what's going on with the Sabres but your point about Bills success is spot on. They clearly seem to know what they're doing on the football side.. I don't know too many teams people would choose as having a brighter future over the Buffalo Bills right now, especially if Allen can continue to develop. It's not that clear...they were screwing everything up until McDermott and Beane were hired Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SCBills Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 1 hour ago, nucci said: It's not that clear...they were screwing everything up until McDermott and Beane were hired I'd say thats a pretty big deal, no?.... They're terrible, except for the fact that shortly after they took over, they brought in one of the better GM/HC tandems in the league and invested heavily into facilities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 1 hour ago, nucci said: It's not that clear...they were screwing everything up until McDermott and Beane were hired They were screwing everything up? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
purple haze Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 On 6/16/2020 at 5:00 PM, Lurker said: NFL = Money Machine NHL = Garage League Exactly. I know hockey has fans all over the world, but in America it is a niche sport. The money will never be the same as the NFL or NBA. Probably MLB too, although that league is doing its best to marginalize itself. MLS might be as popular as the NHL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Penfield45 Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 (edited) On 6/16/2020 at 5:07 PM, Mr. K said: If you missed the Sabres Presser today (I know not all Bills fans are sabres fans) they sounded like keeping the Sabres a float was a challenge and talking about how his oil/energy business "isnt doing well but at least were not in debt." I hope the Sabres level of fragility does not seep down to one bills drive. I think Pegula will sell the sabres and focus on the Bills. it was a mistake from the start to buy both teams. Edited June 18, 2020 by Penfield45 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bob in STL Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 The Pegula's mean well and have done some great things for Buffalo. However, Buffalo would be better off with more diverse Sports Ownership. Looking at PSE (sports, entertainment, restaurants, hotels, bars) and the energy business - the Covid driven adverse impacts on the Pegula's is incredible. It would like to see them sell the Sabres to a local ownership group. They are struggling in the NHL. They don't fit in, and going on 10 years and they are not getting any help from the league to turn things around. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 If I asked you in 2014 after Ralph passed if you'd take a new Bills owner that would make some bad decisions but would absolutely keep the team here, would you have taken it? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 18, 2020 Share Posted June 18, 2020 1 hour ago, Penfield45 said: I think Pegula will sell the sabres and focus on the Bills. it was a mistake from the start to buy both teams. No it wasn't. They'll keep both teams in Buffalo for the long haul. And I think that owning the Sabres got their foot in the door for the Bills. 7 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: If I asked you in 2014 after Ralph passed if you'd take a new Bills owner that would make some bad decisions but would absolutely keep the team here, would you have taken it? See above. Yes. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBennett Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 On 6/17/2020 at 1:27 PM, PromoTheRobot said: Unlike the NFL, the NHL values the Sabres in Buffalo. That said, there are interests that want a second NHL team in the Toronto area. Don't give then an opening. Thats the point im FINE with it because this team is so INEPT whats the loss at this point..to me the loss is ZERO...its not like im going to games, buying merchandise or anything... as a matter of fact I was at this point with the Bills also....I finally after almost 20 years(at the time I made this decision they were at 15 years no playoffs) I said same thing..im not going to games or buying a damn thing to support this MEDIOCRITY to downright ineptness..they need to WIN ME BACK! and I did just that I said nothing to support this team till they make the playoffs...and they did that they won me back....im back now im not a "diehard" anymore they ruined that..but they could also win that back....im more of a bandwagon fair weather guy now...but at least im buying stuff and going to games again(3 last year). I have been listening to the Sabres and going to games since 1975 or 76 since I was 5 years old..ive supported them through thick and thin....but they just lost me now as a "diehard" sure I hope they win cheer for them to win but IM DONE no more games, no more merchandise..nothing! till they make the playoffs..I dont think a fan has a voice other than to not give them $$$..and im at that point they are not "entertainment" or "fun" anymore....they are a inept mess...I wont support that...So go ahead and move them if THIS these last lamost 10 years now is what we will keep getting..move them I dont care anymore.. only way they can win me back is winning and playoffs..thats it.. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 I was a season ticket holder too. Bailed based on a ridiculous increase this season. 10% on my tickets, mainly because my seniority buying tickets through all these lean years got me closer to center ice in the 300 level. They carved the arena into 50 price levels and I was penalized for loyalty during historic futility. I was thinking of cancelling anyways due to no urgency to get this correct and win. As it was, it cost me $100 between parking and tickets to walk into the building, while I watched people sitting next to me who paid $10 on stubhub. From about 1985-on, I was a huge Sabres fan, probably missing only a handful of games between like 1988 and 2013. Some of my personal identity was tied into this team. Over these Pegula years I have disengaged more and more as it is awful with no hope. Last year, I watch portions of maybe 3 games on TV and only attended the 4-6 'retro nights' purely for nostalgia. This whole thing was the last straw. I actually dislike the team and will not engage at all. They diminish their brand every turn of the way. Not only on the ice, but things like the alumni jerseys, the embarrassing Hasek jersey retirement ceremony, forgetting teams do a Hockey is for Everybody Night, say they werent scheduling it because the retro nights, then pretend they had it scheduled all along 'sometime' in the final 3 games... I couldnt care less about Hockey is for Everybody night. But this team is an unorganized mess, and these things fell under this 'genius' Kevyn Adams and Kim Pegula's realm and they were botched. Hearing the Pegulas again reject having anyone else (who knows what they are doing) making decisions is chilling. They said similar things when they fired Murray. They do not know what they are doing. Kim Pegula thinks she could run the Sabres from Florida using an Ipad with this 'flat' management structure. Its a joke and it will never work unless they get extremely fortunate. Its tough to get fortunate in the NHL because there are so many aspects to drafting, developing, building a team, etc... It will catch up to the Bills. Maybe not this year or next, but their ineptitude will drive Beane and McDermott off and we are going to be stuck with them hiring people they "know" and are "comfortable with". The other day is how I felt when the Bills announced Russ Brandon as the GM. At least then, I knew Ralph Wilson was late in life and things would change either way before too long. This, there is no end in sight. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 6 hours ago, CBennett said: Thats the point im FINE with it because this team is so INEPT whats the loss at this point..to me the loss is ZERO...its not like im going to games, buying merchandise or anything... as a matter of fact I was at this point with the Bills also....I finally after almost 20 years(at the time I made this decision they were at 15 years no playoffs) I said same thing..im not going to games or buying a damn thing to support this MEDIOCRITY to downright ineptness..they need to WIN ME BACK! and I did just that I said nothing to support this team till they make the playoffs...and they did that they won me back....im back now im not a "diehard" anymore they ruined that..but they could also win that back....im more of a bandwagon fair weather guy now...but at least im buying stuff and going to games again(3 last year). I have been listening to the Sabres and going to games since 1975 or 76 since I was 5 years old..ive supported them through thick and thin....but they just lost me now as a "diehard" sure I hope they win cheer for them to win but IM DONE no more games, no more merchandise..nothing! till they make the playoffs..I dont think a fan has a voice other than to not give them $$$..and im at that point they are not "entertainment" or "fun" anymore....they are a inept mess...I wont support that...So go ahead and move them if THIS these last lamost 10 years now is what we will keep getting..move them I dont care anymore.. only way they can win me back is winning and playoffs..thats it.. Well that's your opinion. Mine, I want to hang on to these franchises because no one will replace them ever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 19, 2020 Share Posted June 19, 2020 56 minutes ago, PromoTheRobot said: Well that's your opinion. Mine, I want to hang on to these franchises because no one will replace them ever. Any opinion that includes "move the team, I don't care" is, well, you know... 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CBennett Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 On 6/19/2020 at 4:23 PM, PromoTheRobot said: Well that's your opinion. Mine, I want to hang on to these franchises because no one will replace them ever. Thats fine. I also do get where youre coming from but once you go into that spin like the Bills did and Sabres are now..that teams more or less a non factor to me anymore anyway..I mean we were season ticket holders in the endzone where the concrete is on the tunnel i mean right against the concrete you could stand up and look back into the tunnel from our seats from 1982-1992 then we went with a big upgrade and got the paul Maguire box seats from 93-2000 then when we knew they had killed the team in 2000 when all the good players left and Rob Johnson was QB we gave up the seasons all together...we went to the home opener and then 3-4 other games during the year.....then we finally said you know what this isnt fun nor worth our $$ anymore...my last bills game(till last year) was the game after Dick Jauron was canned it was Vs Miami and Bills won. that was the last game..I said ..well we all said nope not another game till they make the playoffs NOTHING! And i think that was what 2009?? so from 2009-2019 we didnt go to a single game, and I did 1 year break down and get a Bills hat for Christmas as my old one was just too nasty to wear anymore...but from 2009- till when they finally made the playoffs they were more or less dead to me...sure i listened on the radio or on a interwebz feed but I really didnt have any passion anymore I knew they would lose and expected them to lose.. Now that they are out of that funk they won me back ..but the BILLS made me go from diehard to a casual fan to what I am now..maybe a Fairweather fan... I guess..... Same deal with the Sabes..thats why I just dont care what they do right at this point because if its another 10 years of the typical Bufflao INEPTLY RUN SPORTS BS....its not like im paying any attention anyways...im not going to games, buying stuff..till they make the playoffs....so while I still hope the win// in UNinvested in them till PLAYOFFS anything else is unacceptable. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
stinky finger Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 On 6/17/2020 at 2:32 PM, Doc said: Given the choice between the two, I’d have no problem with them selling the Sabres. With the caveat that the new owner(s) keep the team in Buffalo. But will anyone honor that? I know that Pegulas will. Better to have and suck then not have at all. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 2 minutes ago, inaugural balls said: Better to have and suck then not have at all. Yup. But they've done a good job with the Bills so I have hope for the Sabres. 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mango Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 Just going off the sabres because it is the same ownership albeit a worse revenue stream, will they continue to fund the FO in the same way? And if not, do we run into a similar Botterill situation where the Pegula’s say we need to cut costs, GM says no, and everybody goes their separate ways? I think that’s a larger concern than actually offering a contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Doc Posted June 21, 2020 Share Posted June 21, 2020 40 minutes ago, Buffalo619 said: Hockey is currently not a sustainable business without fans. He is warning us, no fans next year = sale of team and if his oil business doesn’t improve, this will trickle down to the Bills. This is warning #1. Buffalo as a city has a huge opportunity to improve their standing post corona. How do you figure? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
PromoTheRobot Posted June 22, 2020 Share Posted June 22, 2020 This is a great story and really paints a possible bleak future for sports in general. Sorry for the F-bomb in the tweet. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts