Rewatching the ravens game tonight

[BigBillsFan]

1 hour ago, Scott7975 said:

True but so was Lamar.  The first half Lamar was like 5 of 10 1TD 1INT almost all dump offs.  Lamar had far better weapons.  Our receivers barely got open and when they did get the ball had some dropsies too.  Allen needed to play better, but he wasn't the entire reason.

 

What Lamar did is not relevant. I don't know how Lamar playing poorly is any measure on Allen.

 

I only saw 1 blatant drop by Knox, the drop by Beasley would have been hard to catch, his arms were fully outstretched. Most of the throws were badly missed to wide open receivers who had 1-2 steps on their defenders and they were overthrown.

[ComradeKayAdams]

7 hours ago, first_and_ten said:

 

I think with the addition of Diggs and the continuity of the O line and most importantly, The progression of Allen, that long way to go will be a hop, skip and a jump frm a real Offense.

 

All of this plus the upgrade of Gore to Moss. During the last half of last season, this offense would have looked so much better if you had added just an extra 1-2 yards on many of Gore's runs.

[Augie]

On 5/24/2020 at 11:55 AM, Gugny said:

 

I think Daboll's play-calling killed any chance at winning the game.  Passing 39 times with a pretty ineffective Allen, whilst only running the ball 23 times in a game where Singletary was (as usual) averaging over 5 YPC, was stupid.

 

Baltimore was clearly the better coached team.  Just like they were all season.

 

That reminds me of a certain game where Thurman would have been a SB MVP if we had just handed him the ball more. It made all the difference. Do what works....... ? 

 

Edit: From memory (so sketchy) Josh had 7 of the 23 runs. I just don’t get how we can throw that much and use the RB so little. Hopefully the players and coaches keep improving. 

 

.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Augie

[BigDingus]

Allen also just flat out missed a decent amount of passes. Throwing nearly 40 times that game & completing only 17 passes isn't just lack of receiver size or anything... the fumbles didn't help either.

He also held onto the ball too long & got happy feet, taking too many unnecessary sacks (though some were just bad protection). It's not all on Allen, but he played WAY under his capabilities that game, leaving it almost entire to the defense to keep us in it by keeping Jackson in check.

Just remember how dominant him & the Ravens offense had been leading up to that game. Holding him to 145 yards passing ,40 rushing (though 3 TD's) & only 24 points is pretty damn good considering they averaged 40 points per game 5 of their last 6 games.

[Doc]

9 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

It told me what I already knew. The defense will keep them in any game but the offense still has a long way to go.

 

Likely not anymore. 

[ganesh]

On 5/24/2020 at 9:02 PM, Rubes said:

 

The second half of the Texans playoff game comes to mind as well...

 

and so does the game against Browns and @New England

57 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

They were in command the entire game considering the Bills offense couldn’t do jack ***** for 3 quarters.... The only reason we were in position to tie was due to a couple of bogus penalties on the final drive. 
 

Not saying the Bills can’t be better than Baltimore this year(although I think Baltimore is the best team in the AFC), but last year they clearly were not. 

Baltimore is NOT the best team in the AFC.  The Chiefs are...They are a lot more balanced than the Ravens.

[BarleyNY]

11 hours ago, scuba guy said:

Yes stats say that they both were above 42 yards per punt

 

My point is Corey shanked 3 punts in a row and the landed near the 50 yard line my seasons are under m and t club the crowd all ahed at those punts 

 

Know yes when the ball hit the ground it did roll forward on all 3 and give him an extra 10 yards per punt

 

Roberts caught and fare catches all of his punts for no yac.

 

So would you rather have 44 yards great hang time and fare catch

 

Or a shank 

What I’d rather have is a punter that can get a quality, repeatable result.  The effectiveness of the two punters in that game was the same.  So blaming the loss on our punter doesn’t make sense.  Both punters kicked in poor conditions and they did an equivalent job.

[Milanos Milano]

On 5/24/2020 at 4:10 AM, mattynh said:

My opinion....more talent on offense helps (Diggs and Moss) but the number one variable that will move this offense forward is Josh Allen's continued improvement.  It's not just give him weapons and the results will come.  He needs to improve also.

He does and I believe he will. Even if he doesn’t, this team added Diggs and Moss, that alone is huge even if Allen stays the same. There is zero excuse if we aren’t playing KC this year for the AFC championship. 

[Thurman#1]

On 5/24/2020 at 3:19 PM, John from Riverside said:

We were very much in that game......

 

Our defense made plays even though the Ravens scored points

You could see the holes int he offense.....do we really want Devin S. and McKenzie attempting to catch down the field passes at critical situations

We needed more size on the field at the pass catcher position

Gore got shallacked in the red zone...at this point he really was done.   I hope Moss can help us here

2 fumbles by Josh in this game (one we got back) cant do that against the good teams

The blitzes that the ravens were throwing at us were being completely ignored by our offensive coordinator

 

Despite all this......we had a chance to tie it on the final offensive play

 

I know that everyone considers the ravens to be this elite team (and they are) but we despite all of our problems on offense had a chance to win this

 

 

 

Yeah, it was a hopeful game at the time, I felt.

 

IMO, hell yeah we want Devin Singletary catching down the field passes, anytime.

 

I think he had problems last year with nervousness. His drops looked to me like he took his eye off the ball early. It's something that he can do much better at as the game slows for him and he feels more at home, I think. He's a terrific weapon in the open field.

 

McKenzie not quite so much, but he's not bad. Just not as good as what are now our top three. I've never bought the "We need more size" thing. Not when I watched the Ravens game and not now. It's not a bad thing at all, but it's not a necessity either. Our top three guys are going to get a lot of separation and that's just as good as size.

 

And the OC didn't ignore the blitzes, there just wasn't much they could do. The run game wasn't working, this group hasn't done well with screens. The play calling didn't seem to me to be the problem. It just looked like the Ravens D was better than the Bills O.

 

And yeah, Moss seems like he will really be an upgrade on Gore. I'm looking forward to see how the OL does with a year of experience together. My guess is there'll be significant improvement. We'll see, I guess.

[GoBills808]

1 hour ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

 

Yeah, it was a hopeful game at the time, I felt.

 

IMO, hell yeah we want Devin Singletary catching down the field passes, anytime.

 

I think he had problems last year with nervousness. His drops looked to me like he took his eye off the ball early. It's something that he can do much better at as the game slows for him and he feels more at home, I think. He's a terrific weapon in the open field.

 

McKenzie not quite so much, but he's not bad. Just not as good as what are now our top three. I've never bought the "We need more size" thing. Not when I watched the Ravens game and not now. It's not a bad thing at all, but it's not a necessity either. Our top three guys are going to get a lot of separation and that's just as good as size.

 

And the OC didn't ignore the blitzes, there just wasn't much they could do. The run game wasn't working, this group hasn't done well with screens. The play calling didn't seem to me to be the problem. It just looked like the Ravens D was better than the Bills O.

 

And yeah, Moss seems like he will really be an upgrade on Gore. I'm looking forward to see how the OL does with a year of experience together. My guess is there'll be significant improvement. We'll see, I guess.

They could have not left a rookie TE to block 1v1 vs Matthew Judon

[Thurman#1]

15 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

This game is a big point of contention for me simply because, for me, it highlights the inability of the current Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator to adapt and make the proper offensive adjustments on game day.

 

The Bills had played on Thanksgiving day, Thursday previous and had extra time to rest, prepare for the Ravens. Anyone with a brain could research the Ravens defense in previous game to see that while not having one, two outstanding pass rushers they make up for that by blitzing almost 50% of the defensive snaps each and every game.

 Extra time to prepare, knew what to expect!

 

 

First series Ravens game,  3rd and 4 deep middle pass incomplete for John Brown, PUNT. 

Second series, 3rd and 12 deep left pass incomplete for Robert Foster, PUNT. 

Third series 2nd and 10, incomplete deep left for Dawson Knox. 3rd and 10, pass incomplete deep left John Brown, PUNT. 

 

 

So, In the Bills first three series the answer for all that Ravens blitzing was to have Allen attempt four deep throws when the down and distance were not favorable. Then basically give up on the deep throw for most of the rest of the game. NOW, when the Ravens saw that Allen couldn't hit that deep pass which would have really hurt them with all their blitzing. The Ravens defense stepped up their blitzing from 50-55% of the defensive snaps to 65% or more. This put Allen under tremendous pressure the rest of the game. 

How much pressure you ask? The Ravens defensive players came on a blitz 96 times that game for 6 sacks, 12 QB hits, 15 QB pressures, 3 harries!

 

For the fourth series in the second quarter the Bills went to the run game. After a 15+ yard penalty on the Ravens for roughing the passer the Bills reeled off seven straight runs from the Bills 42 to the Ravens 14 yard line. Four first downs by running with both Singletary and Allen. Result, FG. 

 

So, up until this point the Bills drives went, PUNT, PUNT, PUNT, FUMBLE, FG. With a score when the Bills finally decided to commit to run the ball. 

 

Now, the Bills know that they can run on the Ravens to stop all that Blitzing and yet the next series swap out Singletary for Gore. After a 1st down Allen is sacked on third down, PUNT. The Bills went back to the pass for most of the rest of the game with some on and off success. 

 

So, in a nutshell, after a few deep passing attempts to thwart the Ravens blitzing the Bills OC literally had no answer to stop that ferocious Baltimore Ravens Blitz! Just keep putting that 2nd year, inexperienced QB under the gun for 39+ drop backs. The Bills offensive line didn't do the job in stopping those blitzes, the receivers didn't do the job in getting open, getting separation.  The Bills OC had no plan "B" or anything to effectively counter the Ravens defensive scheme.

 

I also feel this was a game the Bills should have won in 2019. 

 

 

For 2020 the Bills have the 5th toughest schedule in the league and won't be facing bums at QB or many bad teams like they did in 2019. The offense will need to get it together and start scoring points ...and lots of them. 

 

 

 

Not buying the whole "when they committed to the run, they ran well" thing. It was just the other way around ... when they ran well they committed to the run. When their efforts to run didn't work, they didn't try so much.

 

Before and after that one drive they tried run plays and more than half their runs were two yards and under. They had very little success with the run game, and that's why they stayed away from it. The proof is precisely that one drive, the fourth series in the second quarter. The first run was successful. So they quickly went back to it. They had success, and so they stuck with it. It wasn't like they weren't running well in that drive but they stuck with it and things started to turn around. They were running well and so they kept running. Pretty much the rest of the game till the Ravens went into prevent at the end, the run game was being absolutely stifled. They tried running. They simply didn't have any success.

 

Most likely either the Ravens changed the defense a bit right there and the Bills noticed it and had success running, or the Bills tried an offensive wrinkle that made it easier to run. In any case, the Ravens adapted after that drive.

[BritBill]

I'm yet to re-watch this game but my abiding memory is we never looked like winning it or deserved to. 

 

You know when a midget tries to fight a normal sized person and gets held off by a strong arm to the head? That's how I remember this game going. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by BritBill

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, BritBill said:

I'm yet to re-watch this game but my abiding memory is we never looked like winning it or deserved to. 

 

You know when a midget tries to fight a normal sized person and gets held off by a strong arm to the head? That's how I remember this game going. 

I would suggest rewatching it

[BritBill]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

I would suggest rewatching it

 

I will. I'm ploughing my way through last season't games.

 

Only up to the week 3 game v Bengals at the moment. 

[BritBill]

I jumped ahead and just watched the game via "game in 40". I'm standing by my original comment. We never looked like winning this game.

 

The D deserved so much better than what the O offered up. The first quarter was an abomination. 

 

We were never closer than 4 points other than at kick off. The refs got us out of jail on more than a few occasions and there must have been at least 10 offensive plays for negative yards. 

[ctk232]

On 5/24/2020 at 4:08 AM, Troll Toll said:

The bolded part is what I remember most, our OC basically let them tee off on Josh. How do you become an NFL OC when you are oblivious to the obvious? Where are the screens and quick hitters?

It’s maddening to recognize it from your own screen and not know what other variables are in play, if any. But that was hard to watch. Rewatching the wildcard game currently as well, and I have SO many questions for Daboll (as I did that day, but even without emotion factoring in now the questions are still there). 
 

Without trying to dig any of it back up - once the 2nd half hit I had a difficult time explaining, understanding, and frankly watching the play call strategy on almost every drive. The drive in OT was the most glaring in this regard by abandoning the run/DS going MIA, lack of Beasley in the pass game, and minor calls like the quick pass to Duke with prevent D rather than scripting that to DS instead to gain more chunk yards. We seemed to ignore the very obvious reality that we had almost an entire quarter to drive ~30 yds and kick a FG...that’s all we needed. Let’s also ignore the fact DS was having a career game.
 

All this quarantine self-induced stress to say, while I’m anxious to see how Allen develops this year, I’m exceedingly more curious to see what Daboll does, especially in his third year. I’d hope to see his playcall approach markedly improve, especially given his new offensive additions. 

Edited May 26, 2020 by ctk232

[C.Biscuit97]

This is why I think I’m going to stop going to games. I don’t remember a single play from this game.  Tailgate was absolutely amazing and I definitely won that. 

[BarleyNY]

On 5/25/2020 at 11:38 AM, Nihilarian said:

This game is a big point of contention for me simply because, for me, it highlights the inability of the current Buffalo Bills offensive coordinator to adapt and make the proper offensive adjustments on game day.

 

The Bills had played on Thanksgiving day, Thursday previous and had extra time to rest, prepare for the Ravens. Anyone with a brain could research the Ravens defense in previous game to see that while not having one, two outstanding pass rushers they make up for that by blitzing almost 50% of the defensive snaps each and every game.

 Extra time to prepare, knew what to expect!

 

 

First series Ravens game,  3rd and 4 deep middle pass incomplete for John Brown, PUNT. 

Second series, 3rd and 12 deep left pass incomplete for Robert Foster, PUNT. 

Third series 2nd and 10, incomplete deep left for Dawson Knox. 3rd and 10, pass incomplete deep left John Brown, PUNT. 

 

 

So, In the Bills first three series the answer for all that Ravens blitzing was to have Allen attempt four deep throws when the down and distance were not favorable. Then basically give up on the deep throw for most of the rest of the game. NOW, when the Ravens saw that Allen couldn't hit that deep pass which would have really hurt them with all their blitzing. The Ravens defense stepped up their blitzing from 50-55% of the defensive snaps to 65% or more. This put Allen under tremendous pressure the rest of the game. 

How much pressure you ask? The Ravens defensive players came on a blitz 96 times that game for 6 sacks, 12 QB hits, 15 QB pressures, 3 harries!

 

For the fourth series in the second quarter the Bills went to the run game. After a 15+ yard penalty on the Ravens for roughing the passer the Bills reeled off seven straight runs from the Bills 42 to the Ravens 14 yard line. Four first downs by running with both Singletary and Allen. Result, FG. 

 

So, up until this point the Bills drives went, PUNT, PUNT, PUNT, FUMBLE, FG. With a score when the Bills finally decided to commit to run the ball. 

 

Now, the Bills know that they can run on the Ravens to stop all that Blitzing and yet the next series swap out Singletary for Gore. After a 1st down Allen is sacked on third down, PUNT. The Bills went back to the pass for most of the rest of the game with some on and off success. 

 

So, in a nutshell, after a few deep passing attempts to thwart the Ravens blitzing the Bills OC literally had no answer to stop that ferocious Baltimore Ravens Blitz! Just keep putting that 2nd year, inexperienced QB under the gun for 39+ drop backs. The Bills offensive line didn't do the job in stopping those blitzes, the receivers didn't do the job in getting open, getting separation.  The Bills OC had no plan "B" or anything to effectively counter the Ravens defensive scheme.

 

I also feel this was a game the Bills should have won in 2019. 

 

 

For 2020 the Bills have the 5th toughest schedule in the league and won't be facing bums at QB or many bad teams like they did in 2019. The offense will need to get it together and start scoring points ...and lots of them. 

Pinning this on Daboll doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.  Honestly, it’s total BS.  First off, he schemed an effective way to beat the Ravens.  Josh just couldn’t execute well enough on those early deep passes.  That’s not on the OC.  Incidentally it’s also not usually the OC when receivers can’t separate or the protection can’t block.  But let’s hit those one at a time.  The primary game plan was sound and would’ve worked if Allen could’ve hit some deep passes early.  Incidentally the receivers we’re open on those plays and the pass pro was solid.

 

Separation was not a big issue.  Watch the All 22 and remember that this is the NFL.  Pass pro was an issue at times.  Knox getting blown up on the play Allen fumbled deep in our own end led to a Ravens TD.  That was on Knox, who did not have a good game.  But hitting a couple deep passes would’ve backed the Ravens off.  Once they didn’t fear getting beat deep they stacked the box and blitzed away. 
 

So I’m not pinning the loss totally on Allen.  I made that clear in my first post.  But he sure didn’t help the Bills cause in this one. A lot of people here will blame everyone but him though.  Maybe you can tell me when I can start expecting the seventh overall pick of the 2018 draft to start helping us win games like that one.  I mean, that was in week 14 of his second season.  I know he came into the league very raw, but how long does he get before we can reasonably expect him to make a positive contribution against a quality opponent?

[Nihilarian]

7 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Not buying the whole "when they committed to the run, they ran well" thing. It was just the other way around ... when they ran well they committed to the run. When their efforts to run didn't work, they didn't try so much.

 

Before and after that one drive they tried run plays and more than half their runs were two yards and under. They had very little success with the run game, and that's why they stayed away from it. The proof is precisely that one drive, the fourth series in the second quarter. The first run was successful. So they quickly went back to it. They had success, and so they stuck with it. It wasn't like they weren't running well in that drive but they stuck with it and things started to turn around. They were running well and so they kept running. Pretty much the rest of the game till the Ravens went into prevent at the end, the run game was being absolutely stifled. They tried running. They simply didn't have any success.

 

Most likely either the Ravens changed the defense a bit right there and the Bills noticed it and had success running, or the Bills tried an offensive wrinkle that made it easier to run. In any case, the Ravens adapted after that drive.

We've had this very argument before. You can't run once a series and expect great results (even when Singletary broke off a 5 yard run in the 3rd quarter in one series, the Bills OC went right back to calling pass plays). Especially when the opposing defense is sending more rushers than defenders almost every offensive snap.

 

Besides, there are more ways to beat a cover zero blitz other than attempting 4-5 deep throws at the start of the game. "Max protect", which means keeping RB's and TE's in to block and if the defense plans on sending 6-7 to rush then go to a dense formation and block with 6-7 as this will give the QB more time in the pocket to find an open receiver. This is what most teams use to throw deep but it also limits the amount of receivers. 

 

Another alternative is to spread the defense out, send everyone out and operate out of an empty set. With five receivers to cover the defense has a limited amount of players that they can rush, otherwise somebody is wide open. More receivers in the field means more chances to beat a defender one on one.  This also puts the emphasis on the defense to protect because now that running QB has openings to run thru, the RB usually only has one defender to beat and its off to the races.

 

It seems to me that you like defending Buffalo Bills OC Brian Daboll. It's like it's okay with you to put that 2nd year QB under the gun all game " 6 sacks, 12 QB hits, 15 QB pressures, 3 harries!" 

You act like Daboll is the 2nd year NFL guy who only had two seasons in a podunk college and  it is Allen who has 11 years as an offensive assistant with the Patriots, a season with Alabama as their OC under Nick Saban. Two seasons as an NFL QB coach. Five seasons as an NFL offensive coordinator. That's 18 years of NFL experience! 

 

With all this wealth of NFL experience this man can't figure out how to stop a cover zero blitz from either the Ravens or Patriots? Yeah, that's right, this bothers me is that the Patriots also run a cover zero blitz against Allen and Daboll had no answer for it against them either.  Or, perhaps as a long time Patriots assistant Daboll...

 

 

Anyway, the Bills were in the Baltimore Ravens red zone four times and came away with three field goals, one TD. Why was it all on Bills QB Josh Allen to make that offense work? The Bills run game stalls or fails and the Bills OC has no answer but to keep asking that young, inexperienced to throw thirty nine times. Brian Daboll might have that New England Patriots play book, but he keeps putting the QB under the gun far, far to often while not working that run game. 

 

The Bills don't have scrubs on the O line like they had in 2018 and four of the five have been upgraded. There really shouldn't be any excuses for that Buffalo run game to fail like it does at times in the red zone. 

 

Bottom line here is the Buffalo Bills offense failed against both the Ravens and the Patriots 2x. Player execution at all positions, QB, O line, TE, RB, blocking, catching, drops. When the offense fails in so many areas it all falls on one guy, the offensive coordinator! 

 

 

 

What I find kind of funny is Titans OC Arthur Smith has 10 years of NFL experience as an assistant and only ONE season as an NFL offensive coordinator. This man drew up an offensive game plan to not only help beat the New England Patriots in New England in a 2019 WC game! He also drew up the offensive game plan to help beat the Baltimore Ravens in Baltimore in a 2019 divisional playoff round. 

 

Is that Titans offensive line 'that' much better than the Bills O line? Is their run game "that" much better than the Bills run game? Both Devin Singletary and Derrick Henry finished the 2019 season with 5.1 yards per rush attempt. 303 attempts 1540 rush yards vs 151 attempts for 775 yards "Motor" vastly underutilized all season in my view. 

[FireChans]

3 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

We've had this very argument before. You can't run once a series and expect great results (even when Singletary broke off a 5 yard run in the 3rd quarter in one series, the Bills OC went right back to calling pass plays). Especially when the opposing defense is sending more rushers than defenders almost every offensive snap.

 

Besides, there are more ways to beat a cover zero blitz other than attempting 4-5 deep throws at the start of the game. "Max protect", which means keeping RB's and TE's in to block and if the defense plans on sending 6-7 to rush then go to a dense formation and block with 6-7 as this will give the QB more time in the pocket to find an open receiver. This is what most teams use to throw deep but it also limits the amount of receivers. 

 

Another alternative is to spread the defense out, send everyone out and operate out of an empty set. With five receivers to cover the defense has a limited amount of players that they can rush, otherwise somebody is wide open. More receivers in the field means more chances to beat a defender one on one.  This also puts the emphasis on the defense to protect because now that running QB has openings to run thru, the RB usually only has one defender to beat and its off to the races.

 

It seems to me that you like defending Buffalo Bills OC Brian Daboll. It's like it's okay with you to put that 2nd year QB under the gun all game " 6 sacks, 12 QB hits, 15 QB pressures, 3 harries!" 

You act like Daboll is the 2nd year NFL guy who only had two seasons in a podunk college and  it is Allen who has 11 years as an offensive assistant with the Patriots, a season with Alabama as their OC under Nick Saban. Two seasons as an NFL QB coach. Five seasons as an NFL offensive coordinator. That's 18 years of NFL experience! 

 

With all this wealth of NFL experience this man can't figure out how to stop a cover zero blitz from either the Ravens or Patriots? Yeah, that's right, this bothers me is that the Patriots also run a cover zero blitz against Allen and Daboll had no answer for it against them either.  Or, perhaps as a long time Patriots assistant Daboll...

 

 

Anyway, the Bills were in the Baltimore Ravens red zone four times and came away with three field goals, one TD. Why was it all on Bills QB Josh Allen to make that offense work? The Bills run game stalls or fails and the Bills OC has no answer but to keep asking that young, inexperienced to throw thirty nine times. Brian Daboll might have that New England Patriots play book, but he keeps putting the QB under the gun far, far to often while not working that run game. 

 

The Bills don't have scrubs on the O line like they had in 2018 and four of the five have been upgraded. There really shouldn't be any excuses for that Buffalo run game to fail like it does at times in the red zone. 

 

Bottom line here is the Buffalo Bills offense failed against both the Ravens and the Patriots 2x. Player execution at all positions, QB, O line, TE, RB, blocking, catching, drops. When the offense fails in so many areas it all falls on one guy, the offensive coordinator! 

 

 

 

What I find kind of funny is Titans OC Arthur Smith has 10 years of NFL experience as an assistant and only ONE season as an NFL offensive coordinator. This man drew up an offensive game plan to not only help beat the New England Patriots in New England in a 2019 WC game! He also drew up the offensive game plan to help beat the Baltimore Ravens in Baltimore in a 2019 divisional playoff round. 

 

Is that Titans offensive line 'that' much better than the Bills O line? Is their run game "that" much better than the Bills run game? Both Devin Singletary and Derrick Henry finished the 2019 season with 5.1 yards per rush attempt. 303 attempts 1540 rush yards vs 151 attempts for 775 yards "Motor" vastly underutilized all season in my view. 

You missed Titans QB was better than the Bills QB last year. And their RB was better. So yeah. All those things matter.

 

Teams will continue to run Cover 0 against Josh until he proves he can beat them with his arm. Josh will continue to struggle against Cover 0 until he trusts his arm and his read and throws accurate passes in tight windows. 

[JerseyBills]

On 5/24/2020 at 2:19 AM, John from Riverside said:

We were very much in that game......

 

Our defense made plays even though the Ravens scored points

You could see the holes int he offense.....do we really want Devin S. and McKenzie attempting to catch down the field passes at critical situations

We needed more size on the field at the pass catcher position

Gore got shallacked in the red zone...at this point he really was done.   I hope Moss can help us here

2 fumbles by Josh in this game (one we got back) cant do that against the good teams

The blitzes that the ravens were throwing at us were being completely ignored by our offensive coordinator

 

Despite all this......we had a chance to tie it on the final offensive play

 

I know that everyone considers the ravens to be this elite team (and they are) but we despite all of our problems on offense had a chance to win this

With our upgrades on O and how our D matches up with their O , i think it's neck n neck basically. 

 

I feel like our defense and Titans defense really exposed them , I mean they were so dominant on O prior to our matchup. You stop the run and make Lamar beat you with his arm and they aren't so dominant after all. 

 

And they were throwing alot of Cover 0 and blitzing the heck outta Allen. Add Diggs to the mix and I don't see that happening. It'll be a helluva matchup!

[Nihilarian]

13 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Pinning this on Daboll doesn’t make a lot of sense to me.  Honestly, it’s total BS.  First off, he schemed an effective way to beat the Ravens.  Josh just couldn’t execute well enough on those early deep passes.  That’s not on the OC.  Incidentally it’s also not usually the OC when receivers can’t separate or the protection can’t block.  But let’s hit those one at a time.  The primary game plan was sound and would’ve worked if Allen could’ve hit some deep passes early.  Incidentally the receivers we’re open on those plays and the pass pro was solid.

 

Separation was not a big issue.  Watch the All 22 and remember that this is the NFL.  Pass pro was an issue at times.  Knox getting blown up on the play Allen fumbled deep in our own end led to a Ravens TD.  That was on Knox, who did not have a good game.  But hitting a couple deep passes would’ve backed the Ravens off.  Once they didn’t fear getting beat deep they stacked the box and blitzed away. 
 

So I’m not pinning the loss totally on Allen.  I made that clear in my first post.  But he sure didn’t help the Bills cause in this one. A lot of people here will blame everyone but him though.  Maybe you can tell me when I can start expecting the seventh overall pick of the 2018 draft to start helping us win games like that one.  I mean, that was in week 14 of his second season.  I know he came into the league very raw, but how long does he get before we can reasonably expect him to make a positive contribution against a quality opponent?

From my view when the offense fails for whatever reason it's on the coordinator to find a way make things work. The Bills play the Patriots 2x a season and they run that very same cover zero defense that the Ravens used. The Bills need to learn a way to beat that defensive scheme!!  The Titans found a way to beat it last season. 

 

The NFL is a "team" sport and it shouldn't all be on the young, inexperienced QB to make the offense work. The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over when its clearly not working.

 

Why is it all on the QB to make things work? Yes, the O line couldn't get it done in pass block, run blocking, the receivers had difficulty getting open, catching balls.

 

"A year after consistently struggling to place intermediate throws, Allen has been one of the league’s most accurate passers in that area of the field. He’s completed 64.7 percent of his throws between 10 and 20 yards this season—a jump of nearly 16 percentage points from his first season. Allen’s biggest gains in 2019 have come where he faltered most as a rookie."

 

"Yet for all of Allen’s strides forward this season, his efficiency on deep balls has taken a drastic step back. He enters Week 12 ranked 22nd out of 25 qualified quarterbacks with a 30.2 adjusted completion percentage on passes of 20 yards or more, and he’s routinely sailed throws well out of reach of his receivers. But Allen contends that he’s comfortable with how the process is playing out. He’s OK with his deep ball accuracy coming together last; just like his golf swing, he knows that as long as he’s hitting the ball straight, the length will eventually come. “I’m 100 percent OK with an overthrow compared to a pick under,” Allen says. “I’ll take that 100 times out of 100.”

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/21/20975461/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-quarterback-perception

 

A lot of Bills fans seem to forget that Allen didn't come from a big time college program and he only spent two seasons in a small time program that has never produced a top NFL QB. Allen was very raw out of college and has come a long way since then. Just remember the kid only has 27 NFL starts out of 32 going into his third season as a starting NFL QB.

 

Also, It should never all be on the QB to win games as it is a team sport. Even experienced NFL QB's like Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers fall on their face without a proper supporting cast. Watching those guys throw 40 times a game in a losing effort looks all to familiar. 

 

 

 

[GoBills808]

34 minutes ago, FireChans said:

You missed Titans QB was better than the Bills QB last year. And their RB was better. So yeah. All those things matter.

 

Teams will continue to run Cover 0 against Josh until he proves he can beat them with his arm. Josh will continue to struggle against Cover 0 until he trusts his arm and his read and throws accurate passes in tight windows. 

Last play of the game he beat Cover0 which would have been the tying score but Brown couldn't win against Marcus Peters

[FireChans]

19 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Last play of the game he beat Cover0 which would have been the tying score but Brown couldn't win against Marcus Peters

That’s what happens when you manage to throw one catachable ball against Cover zero all game. It comes down to one pass against a good defender.

 

Even if if they had completed that pass, the Ravens would have continued to run that defense until Allen proved he could consistently beat it. That’s his next stage in his development.

Edited May 26, 2020 by FireChans

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, FireChans said:

That’s what happens when you manage to throw one catachable ball against Cover zero all game. It comes down to one pass against a good defender.

 

Even if if they had completed that pass, the Ravens would have continued to run that defense until Allen proved he could consistently beat it. That’s his next stage in his development.

Mmm you don't beat cover0 by throwing 'accurate passes in tight windows'

 

The whole concept of cover0 is understanding leverage...there are no tight windows, just reading routes develop and throwing angles

 

On that last play, Allen delivered the correct ball against that defense to the correct target who was so badly outmatched physically against his defender he couldn't even get a hand on it. 

 

And iirc he threw another one vs same defense to Beasley who dropped it, our wideouts got beat up that game

 

[BarleyNY]

53 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

From my view when the offense fails for whatever reason it's on the coordinator to find a way make things work. The Bills play the Patriots 2x a season and they run that very same cover zero defense that the Ravens used. The Bills need to learn a way to beat that defensive scheme!!  The Titans found a way to beat it last season. 

 

The NFL is a "team" sport and it shouldn't all be on the young, inexperienced QB to make the offense work. The definition of stupidity is to keep doing the same thing over and over when its clearly not working.

 

Why is it all on the QB to make things work? Yes, the O line couldn't get it done in pass block, run blocking, the receivers had difficulty getting open, catching balls.

 

"A year after consistently struggling to place intermediate throws, Allen has been one of the league’s most accurate passers in that area of the field. He’s completed 64.7 percent of his throws between 10 and 20 yards this season—a jump of nearly 16 percentage points from his first season. Allen’s biggest gains in 2019 have come where he faltered most as a rookie."

 

"Yet for all of Allen’s strides forward this season, his efficiency on deep balls has taken a drastic step back. He enters Week 12 ranked 22nd out of 25 qualified quarterbacks with a 30.2 adjusted completion percentage on passes of 20 yards or more, and he’s routinely sailed throws well out of reach of his receivers. But Allen contends that he’s comfortable with how the process is playing out. He’s OK with his deep ball accuracy coming together last; just like his golf swing, he knows that as long as he’s hitting the ball straight, the length will eventually come. “I’m 100 percent OK with an overthrow compared to a pick under,” Allen says. “I’ll take that 100 times out of 100.”

https://www.theringer.com/nfl/2019/11/21/20975461/josh-allen-buffalo-bills-quarterback-perception

 

A lot of Bills fans seem to forget that Allen didn't come from a big time college program and he only spent two seasons in a small time program that has never produced a top NFL QB. Allen was very raw out of college and has come a long way since then. Just remember the kid only has 27 NFL starts out of 32 going into his third season as a starting NFL QB.

 

Also, It should never all be on the QB to win games as it is a team sport. Even experienced NFL QB's like Matt Ryan, Drew Brees, Aaron Rodgers fall on their face without a proper supporting cast. Watching those guys throw 40 times a game in a losing effort looks all to familiar. 

 

 

 

You’re saying some truly ridiculous thing here.  I’ll hit on a few:

 

-  Your contention that offensive failures are always on the coordinator is mind boggling.  Sure, they can be but by no means is failure always on an OC.  It’s their job to put their players in a position to perform well, but the players must execute.  That’s their job. 
 

- Next you blamed the offense’s woes on the supporting cast.  Sure, they need to perform, but the QB who is the most important player on the team should be expected to perform too.  No one on the Bills offense performed worse in that game than Allen did except for Knox.  Everyone else can’t be expected to be perfect before even considering that Allen should shoulder some of the blame for his own play. 

 

- You also blame Allen’s issues on his inexperience and youth.  He’s really not that much younger than a lot of other players in the NFL, including some more successful QBs.  And, yes, he came from Wyoming not LSU.  But I asked you how big of a pass he should get for that and you didn’t answer.  Again the Ravens game was week 14 of year 2 for him.  He doesn’t get a pass forever.

 

- It should never be on the QB to win a game? Okay.  I don’t think anyone is saying it is 100% on any QB to do it all by himself.  But if you play the most important position in football, where you can impact games more than anyone else and can earn the most money of any position, then why shouldn’t I expect you to help my team win?

 

You've blamed Daboll and everyone else on the offense for the problems on that side of the ball.  Why is Allen so untouchable for you when it comes to his play?  Why do you literally blame everyone else and assign zero blame to him?

[FireChans]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Mmm you don't beat cover0 by throwing 'accurate passes in tight windows'

 

The whole concept of cover0 is understanding leverage...there are no tight windows, just reading routes develop and throwing angles

 

On that last play, Allen delivered the correct ball against that defense to the correct target who was so badly outmatched physically against his defender he couldn't even get a hand on it. 

 

And iirc he threw another one vs same defense to Beasley who dropped it, our wideouts got beat up that game

 

So by tight windows, I don’t mean between two defenders, rather throwing it to players who won’t be college open, and where a ball a foot behind them will be a pick.

 

The Ravens probably have the best personnel in the NFL to run Cover zero, their top 4 DB’s are pretty darn good from top to bottom. That makes the margin for error even smaller, as their DB’s are capable of making good defensive plays, just like they did on the final play in that game. If you don’t want to get beat on the final play, you have to make more plays earlier in the game.

 

Luckily, there are not many teams like the Ravens out there. If the Pats have truly turned back into pumpkins, and the Dolphins continue to struggle (although they have really upgraded their CB’s) we could theoretically get by.

[GoBills808]

Just now, FireChans said:

So by tight windows, I don’t mean between two defenders, rather throwing it to players who won’t be college open, and where a ball a foot behind them will be a pick.

 

The Ravens probably have the best personnel in the NFL to run Cover zero, their top 4 DB’s are pretty darn good from top to bottom. That makes the margin for error even smaller, as their DB’s are capable of making good defensive plays, just like they did on the final play in that game. If you don’t want to get beat on the final play, you have to make more plays earlier in the game.

 

Luckily, there are not many teams like the Ravens out there. If the Pats have truly turned back into pumpkins, and the Dolphins continue to struggle (although they have really upgraded their CB’s) we could theoretically get by.

Ok I understand you

 

I think the Bills haven't had a wideout like Diggs before and we've collectively forgotten how a guy like him can improve an offense. If he is running that route instead of Brown it's either a TD or more likely the Ravens aren't in Cover0 because with Diggs on the field you can expect him to win and just throw him open for a TD when you see that look

[BarleyNY]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Mmm you don't beat cover0 by throwing 'accurate passes in tight windows'

 

The whole concept of cover0 is understanding leverage...there are no tight windows, just reading routes develop and throwing angles

 

On that last play, Allen delivered the correct ball against that defense to the correct target who was so badly outmatched physically against his defender he couldn't even get a hand on it. 

 

And iirc he threw another one vs same defense to Beasley who dropped it, our wideouts got beat up that game

 

Typically man coverage is played more against less accurate QBs.  A few seasons ago the QB who saw the most man coverage was Cam Newton.  I remember that because he was Allen’s pro comp in the draft and I read it in that context.  The reality is simple.  Allen will see a lot of Cover0 and Cover1 (as well as a lot of blitzing) until he can consistently beat man coverage.  This season he will have three of the best WRs in the NFL at creating separation so that should not be an issue. 

[wagon127]

On 5/24/2020 at 3:08 AM, QB Bills said:

The Titans said they used the Bills' defense that game as a blueprint to beat the Ravens in the playoffs. If Allen could have even been average that day, the Bills win easily. 

Im pretty sure, the texans used the same defensive game plan that the ravens had, against us, in the playoff game.

[FireChans]

16 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Ok I understand you

 

I think the Bills haven't had a wideout like Diggs before and we've collectively forgotten how a guy like him can improve an offense. If he is running that route instead of Brown it's either a TD or more likely the Ravens aren't in Cover0 because with Diggs on the field you can expect him to win and just throw him open for a TD when you see that look

Yep, that’s all true. You can’t expect Smoke to beat Humphrey 1 on 1 like you can with a player like Diggs. I also think refs will be faster to throw a questionable PI flag with a superstar WR.

 

Diggs + Allen taking another step will open our offense tremendously in difficulty to guard. I expect far fewer games where it feels like pushing a boulder uphill to get a first down. 

[GoBills808]

12 minutes ago, BarleyNY said:

Typically man coverage is played more against less accurate QBs.  A few seasons ago the QB who saw the most man coverage was Cam Newton.  I remember that because he was Allen’s pro comp in the draft and I read it in that context.  The reality is simple.  Allen will see a lot of Cover0 and Cover1 (as well as a lot of blitzing) until he can consistently beat man coverage.  This season he will have three of the best WRs in the NFL at creating separation so that should not be an issue. 

There are so many other factors that go into what coverage a secondary will line up in I don't even feel like responding but oh well

 

Go find some stats that show a correlation between %man coverage and QB 'accuracy' 

 

The reason Newton and the Panthers saw a ton of man is just as likely because their wideouts were some combination of Funchess, Brenton Bersin, Philly Brown, and Kaelin Clay lmfao

[BarleyNY]

6 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

There are so many other factors that go into what coverage a secondary will line up in I don't even feel like responding but oh well

 

Go find some stats that show a correlation between %man coverage and QB 'accuracy' 

 

The reason Newton and the Panthers saw a ton of man is just as likely because their wideouts were some combination of Funchess, Brenton Bersin, Philly Brown, and Kaelin Clay lmfao

Well, this was the very first hit when I googled it: https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-football-metrics-that-matter-qbs-against-man-schemes-or-zone

 

Sure, a lot goes into what coverage a defense plays.  But it’s also easy to understand why a less accurate QB would see more man.  

[GoBills808]

1 minute ago, BarleyNY said:

Well, this was the very first hit when I googled it: https://www.pff.com/news/fantasy-football-metrics-that-matter-qbs-against-man-schemes-or-zone

 

Sure, a lot goes into what coverage a defense plays.  But it’s also easy to understand why a less accurate QB would see more man.  

lmfao the top guy on the chart is Aaron Rodgers

and PFF fantasy football column would not be my go-to reference but hey

[BarleyNY]

22 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

lmfao the top guy on the chart is Aaron Rodgers

and PFF fantasy football column would not be my go-to reference but hey

Well, I wasn’t about to do your homework for you so I just went with the first link.  Feel free to educate yourself on your own time.  

[GoBills808]

Maybe just stop typing for a bit

[billsfan89]

Rewatching that game and the Ravens won the game by being better along the line of scrimmage. The Raven's blitzing schemes confused the Bills o-line and led to Josh being constantly under  pressure while the Ravens offensive line wore down the Bills D-line slowly and efficiently. The Bills played a disciplined game and particularly on defense held the team in there. But without better O-line play and more help in the receiving game things wouldn't have been any better regardless of offensive scheme. 

[Billl]

1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

lmfao the top guy on the chart is Aaron Rodgers

and PFF fantasy football column would not be my go-to reference but hey

Rodgers was second, and he’s the outlier.  The top 5 other than him are Newton, Bortles, Taylor, Carr, and Mariota.  Not exactly a bunch of surgeons.  The opposite end of the spectrum was Brees.  Osweiler was next, but his numbers were horrible against both, so that doesn’t matter much.  Then it was Brady, Stafford, and Cousins.  There’s a pretty strong correlation.  
 

(I’m referencing the chart showing their performance against zone vs man rather than how often they faced it.  There doesn’t seem to by much or any correlation regarding how often they face it.)

Edited May 26, 2020 by Billl

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, Billl said:

Rodgers was second, and he’s the outlier.  The top 5 other than him are Newton, Bortles, Taylor, Carr, and Mariota.  Not exactly a bunch of surgeons.  The opposite end of the spectrum was Brees.  Osweiler was next, but his numbers were horrible against both, so that doesn’t matter much.  Then it was Brady, Stafford, and Cousins.  There’s a pretty strong correlation.  
 

(I’m referencing the chart showing their performance against zone vs man rather than how often they faced it.  There doesn’t seem to by much or any correlation regarding how often they face it.)

Regarding your first bolded: no. You are looking at the chart that gives EPA differential on zone/man. Completely unrelated. We were talking about how often QBs face man vs zone and how that correlates to their supposed 'accuracy'. That's this chart:

 

 

 

And as to your second bolded...considering that was the entire point of the conversation I would have just spared myself the time, personally. Nobody was talking about performance against zone or man coverage. 

[Billl]

24 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Regarding your first bolded: no. You are looking at the chart that gives EPA differential on zone/man. Completely unrelated. We were talking about how often QBs face man vs zone and how that correlates to their supposed 'accuracy'. That's this chart:

 

 

 

And as to your second bolded...considering that was the entire point of the conversation I would have just spared myself the time, personally. Nobody was talking about performance against zone or man coverage. 

Contrary to your posting style of being an unrelentingly insufferable prick, not every comment is a fist fight.  I literally agreed with your comment, but don’t let that stop you from doing what you do.  I’d say you could read the entire post before spouting off and looking like a jackass, but it won’t help.  It seems to be all you know.

Edited May 26, 2020 by Billl