There should be a national dialogue in getting back to work

[RochesterRob]

21 minutes ago, B-Man said:

We’re Following A One-Size-Fits-All Coronavirus Strategy Right Into A Great Depression

While this shutdown has already done enormous damage, it is the uncertainty about when and how it will reopen that could prove far more destructive in the long run.

  No one person can see all the possibilities in what a shutdown will do to the US.  Some businesses will never reopen and some people will take years to find employment.  America is more than a cubicle farm, auto dealership, or some other business that has its name on the side of a building.  Cuomo should have limited the shutdown to the elderly who most likely were retired and the vulnerable who would have issues in a normal flu-type season.  I predict that unemployment will take months to get back below 15 percent and many Americans will be financially ruined because their business never reopened or they have been without income.

[B-Man]

 

[B-Man]

 

 

 

.

[B-Man]

 

[123719bwiqrb]

15 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

Well they can all become police officers, as there will be no shortage of "work".

[IDBillzFan]

8 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

The biggest challenge to the CARE Act, at this moment, is many banks are reluctant to put up the cash because of how they took it in the shorts in 2008. Some are taking applications right now, but many are still trying to get details, so they are saying we have to wait until next week. BofA is essentially telling people that if they don't have a relationship with your business, they won't take  your loan. The problem is that most of us don't have a month to wait because in addition to having no new billables, customers are holding onto their cash and ignoring receivables from little companies like mine.

 

That said, "permanently" is a bit misleading. Even if I have to shut down because I can't carry payroll against no new billables, the billables will return and we will be able to return to work once this passes. On the other hand, no one has any idea of how long "once this passes" actually is.

 

Meanwhile, it's great to see people are finally stopping the blame and focusing on the issues at hand.

 

Oh, wait. No they're not.

 

Nevermind.

[Magox]

The economy is literally dying right before our eyes.

 

The economy is not some Wall street creation. It's not an object whose sole purpose is to make money for corporations.  It's not some greed machine.

 

The economy is about earning a living.  The economy is about providing for your family and loved ones.  The economy is about putting a roof over your head.  The economy is about saving money for your retirement.  The economy is about being able to enjoy distractions throughout your life such as vacations, having nice meals, going to sporting events.  The economy is about living life. The economy is about securing your health.

 

The economy is about people.

 

The sooner people realize how royally fukked what this country and world is about to become due to this complete annihilation of the economy, the better off we will be.

 

 

[Rob's House]

Every time I see the title of this thread it reminds me of this clip.

 

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

17 hours ago, Magox said:

The economy is literally dying right before our eyes.

 

The economy is not some Wall street creation. It's not an object whose sole purpose is to make money for corporations.  It's not some greed machine.

 

The economy is about earning a living.  The economy is about providing for your family and loved ones.  The economy is about putting a roof over your head.  The economy is about saving money for your retirement.  The economy is about being able to enjoy distractions throughout your life such as vacations, having nice meals, going to sporting events.  The economy is about living life. The economy is about securing your health.

 

The economy is about people.

 

The sooner people realize how royally fukked what this country and world is about to become due to this complete annihilation of the economy, the better off we will be.

 

 

 

And when the disease passes we need to ensure that the politicians don't forget what entity is responsible for this and what foreign policy positions need to be abandoned.

 

Looking at you, globalism. Isolationism for the win.

[Tiberius]

 

Quote

 

Politico Magazine turned to a handful of thinkers—people who have studied the impact of pandemics, recessions and more—to helps us understand how to even begin to think about the dilemma ahead. Do we really need to weigh lives against money? If so, how do you do it right?

Spoiler alert: No one offered us a hard date for when life will go back to normal. But there were some surprises. You’ll find a clear guide to making the lives-money tradeoff (and a good rationale for doing it), a surprising fact about the economics of the response to a past global pandemic, a suggestion for a surgical middle-ground approach to a reopening, and a strong argument that recessions actually save lives.

 

https://www.politico.com/news/magazine/2020/04/02/coronavirus-economy-reopen-deaths-balance-analysis-159248

[Tiberius]

One huge problem with reopening up things sooner rather than later, is the threat of social parasites breathing, coughing and sneezing on people. In work places, on public transportation and in schools this could be a problem that is already happening. They are charging people with terrorism for this! I can easily see a third grader running around thinking its funny to scare other kids, that kid would have to be arrested? Right? The close talkers would be a scourge on society! 

[SoCal Deek]

Just now, Tiberius said:

One huge problem with reopening up things sooner rather than later, is the threat of social parasites breathing, coughing and sneezing on people. In work places, on public transportation and in schools this could be a problem that is already happening. They are charging people with terrorism for this! I can easily see a third grader running around thinking its funny to scare other kids, that kid would have to be arrested? Right? The close talkers would be a scourge on society! 

Tibs, the problem comes in figuring out when it’s OK to go back. It’s way easier to shut it down than it is to be the one to give the All Clear. Eventually someone needs to pull that trigger, and they need to do it before civil unrest takes over. I’m glad I don’t have to be the person to make the call. 

[Tiberius]

2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said:

Tibs, the problem comes in figuring out when it’s OK to go back. It’s way easier to shut it down than it is to be the one to give the All Clear. Eventually someone needs to pull that trigger, and they need to do it before civil unrest takes over. I’m glad I don’t have to be the person to make the call. 

Its nice not to have to make the hard choices! I'd hate to have to choose which patient got a ventilator and which didn't. Thats going to scar some people for the rest of their lives 

[Boatdrinks]

5 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

One huge problem with reopening up things sooner rather than later, is the threat of social parasites breathing, coughing and sneezing on people. In work places, on public transportation and in schools this could be a problem that is already happening. They are charging people with terrorism for this! I can easily see a third grader running around thinking its funny to scare other kids, that kid would have to be arrested? Right? The close talkers would be a scourge on society! 

If you’ve been out anywhere the last few weeks you realize there are a lot of idiots out there. People are still hoarding toilet paper for what reason I don’t know. Oh well, that’s part of the price of a free society. Yes, the acts you describe should be considered terrorism and we need harsh penalties including jail time for anyone committing  these acts. This is America, and we need to get back to a semblance of a normal economy sooner than later. We don’t restrict freedoms of all because some will be lawless. We must punish the offenders, though the left will always find that to be “ unfair “ somehow. Follow the rules, don’t excuse them away because life isn’t fair. 

4 minutes ago, Tiberius said:

Its nice not to have to make the hard choices! I'd hate to have to choose which patient got a ventilator and which didn't. Thats going to scar some people for the rest of their lives 

And that is exactly what socialized medicine would bring more of. Lots more. 

[B-Man]

 

 

COVID-19: massive unemployment, except in government.

 

 

 

.

[jrober38]

2 hours ago, Boatdrinks said:

And that is exactly what socialized medicine would bring more of. Lots more. 

 

Socialized medicine works all over the developed world. 

[OldTimeAFLGuy]

On 3/28/2020 at 11:56 PM, Q-baby! said:

I have plenty at work for me. I sold my business at the perfect time. They just laid off more than 300 people. Sucks for them, but they will be back soon enough. 

I have killed zero Americans. Can Dbag Trump say that? Nope! 
 

Oh, my wife if hotter than horse face! Thanks! 

 

....any chance YOU could be the self-inflicted first?..........

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, jrober38 said:

 

Socialized medicine works all over the developed world. 

It works, but it’s not exactly free.Huge taxes come with it.  In a disaster scenario like this, the US had far mare capacity, ventilators per 1000 etc than any other country. Still probably not enough, but socialized healthcare is even more stingy. You’re competing for even less resources, so your chances of survival go down. 

[Q-baby!]

1 hour ago, OldTimeAFLGuy said:

 

....any chance YOU could be the self-inflicted first?..........

Yes. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 hours ago, jrober38 said:

 

Socialized medicine works all over the developed world. 

 

Like, say, in Italy, France and Spain?

 

[billsfan1959]

25 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Like, say, in Italy, France and Spain?

 

 

Beat me to it 

[Magox]

Not that this pertains to the subject but I figured I’d throw this out there

 

Click below to enlarge (charted by Statista)

[IDBillzFan]

49 minutes ago, Joe in Winslow said:

 

Like, say, in Italy, France and Spain?

 

 

I'm kind of surprised ANYONE is looking at the world right now and trying to sell us on how great socialized medicine is in other developed countries.

 

Perhaps they can finally take that embarrassing talking point and put a bullet in it.

[ComradeKayAdams]

3 hours ago, IDBillzFan said:

 

I'm kind of surprised ANYONE is looking at the world right now and trying to sell us on how great socialized medicine is in other developed countries.

 

Perhaps they can finally take that embarrassing talking point and put a bullet in it.

 

I think it's waaaaaay too early to declare winners and losers in the coronavirus medical response. Too many factors and too many unknowns that need to play themselves out.

 

Right now the clear winner might be South Korea, for example, which also happens to have universal health care. Any perceived failures among the medical responses from Europe's countries probably go beyond the simple fact that they have socialized medicine. It's important to note that pretty much every other major developed country outside the US has a healthy social safey net that includes universal health care. The rest of the world is looking in horror at the fact that we just sent 10 million Americans to the unemployment lines in the past two weeks (and eventually over 30% of our work force by some worst-case estimates) when our country has an employment status-based health care system with huge health care costs. Furthermore, the rest of the world is offering generous socal welfare goodies to get their citizens through this crisis like large UBI's and rent/mortgage payment suspensions. Oh yeah, they also don't have the enormous student debt bubble that we have looming over our economy. Oh yeah, and 59% of Americans were living paycheck to paycheck BEFORE this crisis began (source: Charles Schwab's 2019 Modern Wealth Index Survey). Our weird American economic system of "socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor" (MLK quote) wasn't constructed to withstand a shut-down like this. And we hate anything associated with the label "socialism" so much that we may not even be politically capable of offering temporary socialism relief to avert a catastrophic social and economic disaster.

[SoCal Deek]

Kay....I don’t even know where to start to reply to your manifesto. In short, you seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions based on current circumstances. But you simply shouldn’t plan a society based on these sorts of circumstances.

[Magox]

27 minutes ago, RealKayAdams said:

 

I think it's waaaaaay too early to declare winners and losers in the coronavirus medical response. Too many factors and too many unknowns that need to play themselves out.

 

Right now the clear winner might be South Korea, for example, which also happens to have universal health care. Any perceived failures among the medical responses from Europe's countries probably go beyond the simple fact that they have socialized medicine. It's important to note that pretty much every other major developed country outside the US has a healthy social safey net that includes universal health care. The rest of the world is looking in horror at the fact that we just sent 10 million Americans to the unemployment lines in the past two weeks (and eventually over 30% of our work force by some worst-case estimates) when our country has an employment status-based health care system with huge health care costs. Furthermore, the rest of the world is offering generous socal welfare goodies to get their citizens through this crisis like large UBI's and rent/mortgage payment suspensions. Oh yeah, they also don't have the enormous student debt bubble that we have looming over our economy. Oh yeah, and 59% of Americans were living paycheck to paycheck BEFORE this crisis began (source: Charles Schwab's 2019 Modern Wealth Index Survey). Our weird American economic system of "socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor" (MLK quote) wasn't constructed to withstand a shut-down like this. And we hate anything associated with the label "socialism" so much that we may not even be politically capable of offering temporary socialism relief to avert a catastrophic social and economic disaster.

There is so much wrong with this:

 

I will have a field day with this when I get a bit of time.

[RochesterRob]

1 hour ago, RealKayAdams said:

 

I think it's waaaaaay too early to declare winners and losers in the coronavirus medical response. Too many factors and too many unknowns that need to play themselves out.

 

Right now the clear winner might be South Korea, for example, which also happens to have universal health care. Any perceived failures among the medical responses from Europe's countries probably go beyond the simple fact that they have socialized medicine. It's important to note that pretty much every other major developed country outside the US has a healthy social safey net that includes universal health care. The rest of the world is looking in horror at the fact that we just sent 10 million Americans to the unemployment lines in the past two weeks (and eventually over 30% of our work force by some worst-case estimates) when our country has an employment status-based health care system with huge health care costs. Furthermore, the rest of the world is offering generous socal welfare goodies to get their citizens through this crisis like large UBI's and rent/mortgage payment suspensions. Oh yeah, they also don't have the enormous student debt bubble that we have looming over our economy. Oh yeah, and 59% of Americans were living paycheck to paycheck BEFORE this crisis began (source: Charles Schwab's 2019 Modern Wealth Index Survey). Our weird American economic system of "socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor" (MLK quote) wasn't constructed to withstand a shut-down like this. And we hate anything associated with the label "socialism" so much that we may not even be politically capable of offering temporary socialism relief to avert a catastrophic social and economic disaster.

  South Korea is another nation that is carried by the US in terms of military defense.  Yes, they have troops and guns but the North does not storm through the 38th Parallel because of US forces including the US Navy and long range missiles.  As far as college students go too many people take out big money on things that they could never hope to be paid back on via their degree.  Return on investment needs to be taught as part of life living on the high school level.  Appreciate your general compassion for the less fortunate.  

[SoCal Deek]

59% of people are living paycheck to paycheck because they spend everything they make!  That’s true at EVERY income level. It’s a spending problem...not an income problem. 

[GG]

There's a good possibility that after Easter Sunday more conversations will turn to how to get things back to normal.   NY trends are showing a peak next week and hopeful easing of hospital's stress.

[Chef Jim]

15 hours ago, RealKayAdams said:

 

I think it's waaaaaay too early to declare winners and losers in the coronavirus medical response. Too many factors and too many unknowns that need to play themselves out.

 

Right now the clear winner might be South Korea, for example, which also happens to have universal health care. Any perceived failures among the medical responses from Europe's countries probably go beyond the simple fact that they have socialized medicine. It's important to note that pretty much every other major developed country outside the US has a healthy social safey net that includes universal health care. The rest of the world is looking in horror at the fact that we just sent 10 million Americans to the unemployment lines in the past two weeks (and eventually over 30% of our work force by some worst-case estimates) when our country has an employment status-based health care system with huge health care costs. Furthermore, the rest of the world is offering generous socal welfare goodies to get their citizens through this crisis like large UBI's and rent/mortgage payment suspensions. Oh yeah, they also don't have the enormous student debt bubble that we have looming over our economy. Oh yeah, and 59% of Americans were living paycheck to paycheck BEFORE this crisis began (source: Charles Schwab's 2019 Modern Wealth Index Survey). Our weird American economic system of "socialism for the rich, rugged individualism for the poor" (MLK quote) wasn't constructed to withstand a shut-down like this. And we hate anything associated with the label "socialism" so much that we may not even be politically capable of offering temporary socialism relief to avert a catastrophic social and economic disaster.

It’s waaaaaaay to early to declare winners and losers but I declare South Korea as a clear winner. ?

[B-Man]

TALES OF COLLATERAL DAMAGE:

NYC real estate broker losing $250,000 because of coronavirus pandemic.

‘I lost not one but three jobs because of the coronavirus’.

Airbnb host went from making $3,800 a month to $0 amid coronavirus.

Staten Island car dealer still has to pay $500K in interest while lot closed.

Caterer spent $20,000 on expanding business — then coronavirus hit.

Dog walker asks clients to pay him half-salary during coronavirus.

 

 

Important correction, though: these losses are NOT due to coronavirus. They’re due to the decision to place a country of 320 million under house arrest, instead of merely trying to protect those at highest risk.

Also note these people are in NYC and so, due to population density/way of living at higher risk than people in the rest of the country who don’t ride subways and don’t live in apartment buildings.

 

And yet, these losses are all over. Why? Because our “betters” think we’re all Manhattan. Or because they just like power. Your choice.

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

COVID-19: massive unemployment, except in government.

 

 

 

.

[ComradeKayAdams]

17 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

Kay....I don’t even know where to start to reply to your manifesto. In short, you seem to be drawing a lot of conclusions based on current circumstances. But you simply shouldn’t plan a society based on these sorts of circumstances.

 

I’ve been a proponent of FDR-style capitalism independent of the pandemic crisis. This latest crisis only exacerbates some of the fundamental weaknesses in our economic system.

16 hours ago, Magox said:

There is so much wrong with this:

 

I will have a field day with this when I get a bit of time.

 

So does this mean you won’t be giving my post a “like?” Take your time. Or even table discussion of long-term structural changes like M4A and only focus on your original topic of how to transition our economy back to something resembling normal. When doing so, try to address some of the concerns I raised in my post: unemployment spikes in a service-oriented economy, people losing health care due to unemployment, health care costs, student loan payments, rent payments, and mortgage payments.

15 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

59% of people are living paycheck to paycheck because they spend everything they make!  That’s true at EVERY income level. It’s a spending problem...not an income problem. 

 

I posted this in another thread somewhere: wage growth hasn’t been keeping up with costs of living for four decades now (especially rent, education, child care, health care).This has mostly affected the working class and is a significant reason why so many Americans find themselves barely treading economic waters.

 

But even if we assume it’s 100% due to Americans irresponsibly living beyond their means, that doesn’t take away the economic crisis that it presents during this pandemic! These people are not going to have money to put back into the economy once we try to jump-start it.

1 hour ago, Chef Jim said:

It’s waaaaaaay to early to declare winners and losers but I declare South Korea as a clear winner. ?

 

Not what I meant at all. I am NOT declaring South Korea a clear winner. I’m saying that if you WERE to (foolishly) go about declaring winner countries and loser countries right now at this very moment, you would probably choose South Korea, a country that happens to incidentally have universal health care. And again to be clear, I am NOT suggesting that a nation’s specific pandemic response is directly related to their general health care system, either. There are numerous reasons why they initially appear to have had better success than others (geography, culture, past experiences with zoonotic diseases to name a few).

[Magox]

1 minute ago, RealKayAdams said:

 

I’ve been a proponent of FDR-style capitalism independent of the pandemic crisis. This latest crisis only exacerbates some of the fundamental weaknesses in our economic system.

 

So does this mean you won’t be giving my post a “like?” Take your time. Or even table discussion of long-term structural changes like M4A and only focus on your original topic of how to transition our economy back to something resembling normal. When doing so, try to address some of the concerns I raised in my post: unemployment spikes in a service-oriented economy, people losing health care due to unemployment, health care costs, student loan payments, rent payments, and mortgage payments.

 

I posted this in another thread somewhere: wage growth hasn’t been keeping up with costs of living for four decades now (especially rent, education, child care, health care).This has mostly affected the working class and is a significant reason why so many Americans find themselves barely treading economic waters.

 

But even if we assume it’s 100% due to Americans irresponsibly living beyond their means, that doesn’t take away the economic crisis that it presents during this pandemic! These people are not going to have money to put back into the economy once we try to jump-start it.

 

Not what I meant at all. I am NOT declaring South Korea a clear winner. I’m saying that if you WERE to (foolishly) go about declaring winner countries and loser countries right now at this very moment, you would probably choose South Korea, a country that happens to incidentally have universal health care. And again to be clear, I am NOT suggesting that a nation’s specific pandemic response is directly related to their general health care system, either. There are numerous reasons why they initially appear to have had better success than others (geography, culture, past experiences with zoonotic diseases to name a few).

Not that you may care but I promise to give it a fair shake.

[B-Man]

 

 

SUPPLY CHAIN: Wisconsin farmers forced to dump milk as coronavirus slams a fragile dairy economy.

 

 

 

.

[Magox]

It appears that the president will be creating another task force on restarting up the economy.  
 

He needs to not just employ his own economic advisors but also include Fauci, Burke and some external people as well, like a Scott Gotlieb.   
 

I hope he announces this very soon.   It’s critical that they communicate what metrics they will be looking at along with all the measures that they would be considering.   And of course they need to begin ramping up the testing ASAP.   And hopefully some mass randomized testing to get a handle of what is truly going on and to gather as much data as possible.  

[Tiberius]

3 minutes ago, B-Man said:

 

 

SUPPLY CHAIN: Wisconsin farmers forced to dump milk as coronavirus slams a fragile dairy economy.

 

 

 

.

Another socislized industry. Dairy industry is socialism in action 

[B-Man]

 

Here's the problem.......

 

 

 

 

[Unforgiven]

1 hour ago, B-Man said:

 

 

SUPPLY CHAIN: Wisconsin farmers forced to dump milk as coronavirus slams a fragile dairy economy.

 

 

 

.

I'm not a farmer, but why don't they make butter instead? There is none in the stores, and they 

charge 6 bucks for a pound. They would make a killing.

[RochesterRob]

11 minutes ago, Unforgiven said:

I'm not a farmer, but why don't they make butter instead? There is none in the stores, and they 

charge 6 bucks for a pound. They would make a killing.

  Milk is not being picked up at the farm so the rest of it is immaterial until it is picked up.

 

  I should not make assumptions as to what you know about dairy farming so I will let you know nearly all farms do not have equipment to process milk.  It is very cost prohibitive for nearly all individual dairy farms to do so and would require inspectors to certify it acceptable for sale.  Against the law in most states for a farmer to sell milk directly from a holding tank.

Edited April 5, 2020 by RochesterRob

[Niagara Bill]

On 4/4/2020 at 2:45 PM, Magox said:

Not that this pertains to the subject but I figured I’d throw this out there

 

Click below to enlarge (charted by Statista)

It also shows unhealthy masses requiring the need. 

With many if these countries having open healthcare not a lot of private, it also demonstrates where private healthcare makes its money. There is no money on sending people home when capable. There is money in private healthcare keeping you in the critical care bed...

The US private system also has a big focus on private and semi private rooms