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Da webster guy

I know its just PFF but still, did #97 play that poorly?

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Its all about the money.  For a reasonable deal sign him up, top 10 pay for his position no thanks...

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1 hour ago, Dopey said:

1st It can be pass too but I said give. Look at the video. Not a good start. 😉

2nd I never mentioned Harry. Strike 2 😉

3rd replacing Star isn't as easy as you think. Jordan can't do Star's job. Not even close. Neither can Oliver. There's a reason Star is a starter and not Jordan. As for your spoiler alert, it's called rotation. 😉

I'm not even gonna bother with the rest. Wanna know why? Jordan couldn't even crack the starting line-up next year with Star, Harry and Oliver, so he ain't getting paid here. Puff puff give.

 

 

1. you're right, it can be give. but everyone knows it's really pass. all the other youtube videos say pass, not give. 

2. my bad, i dont use the forums that much, that was meant for Hapless, saying that Harry/Star rotated, which can only be the case for the first 3 games this year, because Harry went to IR. So that wasn't the rotation for the season. 

3. C'mon man, Star is useless. They hardly ever double team him, he's too fat and slow. 

He's not getting much playing time for being starter, and that's with Harry on IR, I'm sure he'll be playing less once Harry comes back. Plus, according to spotrac.com their is a 'potential out' in his contract after 2020 season. I'm sure this will be his last season in a Bills uni.

 

Star - only 8 games this season with over 50% of the snaps

Jordan - 11 

Oliver - 9 over 50%, 12 including games at exactly 50%

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2019.htm

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8wscdKgigA

 

 

 

Edited by costrovs

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1 hour ago, GoBills808 said:

That’s exactly it. He can only play 3tech and can’t replace anyone really. Oliver looks like he can do it all. He’s the most valuable DT on the roster. Phillips is a nice piece but nonessential...can’t push the pocket, can’t play the 1spot, loses against the run and against double teams. He’s a penetrating one gapper and will be valued as such by the FO.

 

You realize that moving him from 3 tech to a 1 tech is literally like 3.5 feet right? I'm sure he can play it just fine, and put up better numbers than Star.

 

9.5 sacks and 13 TFL says he can push the pocket better than anyone else on this team.

 

Most DT's do bad against double teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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10 hours ago, Buffalo_Stampede said:

Phillips never really jumped off the screen at me. So I wouldn't totally dispute the ratings. I felt Shaq Lawson made more of an impact. Not sure what PFF rated Shaq.

Shaq had a 68.3 rating which is in the 'good' range.

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15 hours ago, sven233 said:

The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up.  Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. 

 

I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most.  I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player.  I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him.  I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back.  He was our best lineman when he was playing early.

I disagree I think a lot of people WOULD agree with you 

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16 hours ago, Da webster guy said:

The sack numbers were great, but even if PFF is a joke, there has to be SOME merit in their analysis no?

 

PFF gives Jordan Phillips an overall grade of 51.8, which ranks 153rd out of 197 defensive linemen in the league. His pass-rush grade of 60.5 ranks 94th among defensive linemen. Of Phillips' 583 snaps in 2019, 362 were in pass rush (putting him 40th among D-linemen) and 218 were against the run, according to PFF. He played 52.4% of the Bills' defensive snaps.

 

they are garbage, Phillips did more than sacks. The more i see PFF the more i laugh and know they are worthless.

 

 

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19 hours ago, DuckyBoys said:

He's a rotational D lineman who does not play well against the run  Probably will get a nice payday hopefully somewhere else

agree.  great Job by Beane bringing him in and having him here when HorribleHarry went down.   Good GM work.  Let someone else pay him and good for him.

18 hours ago, TroutDog said:

It’s not just PFF: all of the All-22 reviews I read during the season basically said he was a liability in the run game for stretches. The Athletic pointed it out regularly. 

yep.  strong rotational 3rd down guy.   but he wants to get paid like Aaron Donald.  so that ain't happening.  so they will part ways.  I want horrible harry and Ed Oliver in the middle with Star anyway.  all good

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If he can find top 3 DT money elsewhere, he should take it. 
 

if he finds he can and accept a deal that fits his role in Buffalo, maybe he’s back. 
 

 

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23 hours ago, sven233 said:

The eyeball test says he was a pretty good pass rusher, but while he did make a lot of plays on his own, some of the sack production he had was the direct result of someone else pushing the play and Phillips finishing it up.  Also, in my opinion, for someone his size, he was pretty bad against the run. 

 

I know it's not a popular opinion around here, but I am not re-signing him for anything more than 7.5 at the very most.  I think he is a 6-7 million dollar player.  I think there may be a team or 2 that looks at the sack numbers and overpays him.  I don't want to be that team, especially with Horrible Harry coming back.  He was our best lineman when he was playing early.

I'm with you.  He's a contributor to be sure, but the Bills already have a lot of money tied up in the defensive line.  It's true that most of us fans think Lotulelei is over paid, but buffalo also has a budding star in Oliver and Harrison Phillips was looking like he was taking a big step forward when he got hurt.  All of those factors mean not as much money is available to re-sign a player who is a liability in run defense.

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Was Phillips a bit overrated after this season? Yes.

Was he truly anywhere near as poor as the 150 something best DT in the game? Goodness no.

Does PFF compare 3 tech and 1 tech stats under the same measure? IDK

I watch the whole league being a football junkie that I am... I'd put him somewhere around top 25 to 35 DT's this season based on his intelligence at the position and productivity. We play a scheme that calls for a constant team effort, which is going to really skew some folks stats (different players year to year). I'd like to retain him for sure! but not at top 10 DT money is all.

 

 

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23 hours ago, NoSaint said:


he wasn’t awful, and he wasn’t top 3. Dude was a good rotational piece.

simple as that.
Hope they work out a deal though.

 He and Harry would make a sweet rotation.
Lets get Stars contract in line and draft or udfa his replacement

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44 minutes ago, 34-78-83 said:

Was Phillips a bit overrated after this season? Yes.

Was he truly anywhere near as poor as the 150 something best DT in the game? Goodness no.

Does PFF compare 3 tech and 1 tech stats under the same measure? IDK

I watch the whole league being a football junkie that I am... I'd put him somewhere around top 25 to 35 DT's this season based on his intelligence at the position and productivity. We play a scheme that calls for a constant team effort, which is going to really skew some folks stats (different players year to year). I'd like to retain him for sure! but not at top 10 DT money is all.

 

 

Watching games is best.

 Statistical review is just a reference point.
McD plays a rotation as we all know.

 The idea is that some one stands out each down , when all of them do their job.

This is where Jordan is in error with his comments. He is putting himself above the Team.

 Wonder how Ed feels about that?

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19 hours ago, costrovs said:

 

You realize that moving him from 3 tech to a 1 tech is literally like 3.5 feet right? I'm sure he can play it just fine, and put up better numbers than Star.

 

9.5 sacks and 13 TFL says he can push the pocket better than anyone else on this team.

 

Most DT's do bad against double teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 

No offense but this is nonsense.

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20 hours ago, costrovs said:

 

You realize that moving him from 3 tech to a 1 tech is literally like 3.5 feet right? I'm sure he can play it just fine, and put up better numbers than Star.

 

9.5 sacks and 13 TFL says he can push the pocket better than anyone else on this team.

 

Most DT's do bad against double teams.

 

 

 

 

 

 


Yikes. That’s not how it works at all. Believe it or not, there’s more to it than simply where the tackle lines up on the line. 

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44 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

No offense but this is nonsense.

 

Really?

 

 

5 minutes ago, JoPoy88 said:


Yikes. That’s not how it works at all. Believe it or not, there’s more to it than simply where the tackle lines up on the line. 

 

Yes and no. In this whole discussion, we're talking about whether or not Jordan can do a better job than Star at the 1 tech. If you think Star can do better than Jordan at the 1 tech, go ahead and explain that to me.

 

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1 minute ago, costrovs said:

 

Really?

 

 

 

Yes and no. In this whole discussion, we're talking about whether or not Jordan can do a better job than Star at the 1 tech. If you think Star can do better than Jordan at the 1 tech, go ahead and explain that to me.

 


sure. I think Star plays the 1 better than Jordan because that’s Star’s position, and it’s not Phillips’ position. 

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1 minute ago, JoPoy88 said:


sure. I think Star plays the 1 better than Jordan because that’s Star’s position, and it’s not Phillips’ position. 

 

Can you give me a better explanation than that?

 

You can't sit there and say 'Believe it or not, there’s more to it than simply where the tackle lines up on the line'

 

then give me a 3rd grade answer man.

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2 minutes ago, costrovs said:

 

Can you give me a better explanation than that?

 

You can't sit there and say 'Believe it or not, there’s more to it than simply where the tackle lines up on the line'

 

then give me a 3rd grade answer man.


Put simply, their roles are completely different. Because they're asked to do different things, the skillsets and size requirements are completely different. There’s a few tweener guys that can play both. Neither of these guys are those.

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22 hours ago, artmalibu said:

Its all about the money.  For a reasonable deal sign him up, top 10 pay for his position no thanks...

 

Considering that to be a top 10 player at his position by aav he would have to get a deal at around 10.5 to 11.5 million. That would be too much for my blood. I think Phillips is a very good interior pass rusher, his sack numbers were a bit circumstantial he still made a lot of big plays and got pressure up the middle often. If I had to peg his fair value I would say it would be at about 7.5 million aav that is easy to get out of after 2021. But I think adjusting for the free agency overpay I think his value appropriate to the team is at about 8.5ish million that is easy to get out after 2021. 

 

I think once you start to get above 9 million aav I am out. I think 9 million aav is a bit outside of what you want to pay but you would consider it. 

 

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36 minutes ago, costrovs said:

 

Can you give me a better explanation than that?

 

You can't sit there and say 'Believe it or not, there’s more to it than simply where the tackle lines up on the line'

 

then give me a 3rd grade answer man.

 

Put overly simply, it’s not just a difference in where the guys line up, it’s a difference in expected role which leads to a difference in skill set and technique.

 

The 1-tech DLman is expected to take on a double team, hold against it, and ideally push them into the backfield.

The 3-tech DLman is expected to beat a single blocker and penetrate into the backfield.  Typically he’s a somewhat smaller, nimbler DL.  I realize “small” and “nimble aren’t words that come to mind when you look at BigJ9797, but work with me here.

 

You can have two 1-techs lined up next to each other, but usually in McD’s scheme it’s a 1-tech next to a 3-tech

 

There were times after Harrison Phillips was IR’d when it became clear Peko wasn’t cutting it in the rotation and Jordan Phillips was asked to play a bit of 1-tech, but it really isn’t his thing and it was clearly a stopgap.  That’s when we signed Corey Liuget.  So No, we can’t just cut Star and ask Jordan Phillips to move over and take on his role, it’s not his thing.  

 

It’s kind of like asking a RT to become a pulling guard.  You might find one who has the versatility, but don’t expect it just because the guy moves over 3 feet closer to the center.

 

 

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5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Put overly simply, it’s not just a difference in where the guys line up, it’s a difference in expected role which leads to a difference in skill set and technique.

 

The 1-tech DLman is expected to take on a double team, hold against it, and ideally push them into the backfield.

The 3-tech DLman is expected to beat a single blocker and penetrate into the backfield.  Typically he’s a somewhat smaller, nimbler DL.  I realize “small” and “nimble aren’t words that come to mind when you look at BigJ9797, but work with me here.

 

You can have two 1-techs lined up next to each other, but usually in McD’s scheme it’s a 1-tech next to a 3-tech

 

There were times after Harrison Phillips was IR’d when it became clear Peko wasn’t cutting it in the rotation and Jordan Phillips was asked to play a bit of 1-tech, but it really isn’t his thing and it was clearly a stopgap.  That’s when we signed Corey Liuget.  So No, we can’t just cut Star and ask Jordan Phillips to move over and take on his role, it’s not his thing.  

 

It’s kind of like asking a RT to become a pulling guard.  You might find one who has the versatility, but don’t expect it just because the guy moves over 3 feet closer to the center.

 

 

 

Nice, I agree with all that. 

 

Except, that when talking about Star at 1-tech, he doesn't get double teamed as much as Oliver, and Star isn't good at getting into the backfield.

Just because Star is playing 1 tech doesn't mean the opposing o-line is gonna double team him.

Which is why I said Jordan can do a better job than star at the 1-tech. which he has and does.

The reason why the 1-tech is expected to take on double teams, is because 1-tech's are better suited for big guys such as Jordan. But, again Star doesn't get double teamed as much as people realize. The OL is to busy double teaming Oliver.

 

Everything that you wrote and that I put in bold, reiterates the reason why Jordan played better and is better suited at 1-tech than Star. 

 

Hell, Oliver too. and even Harry played better than Star(at 1-tech) in his limited time on the field. So as far as that goes they can all replace Star. Jordan is just better suited for it than Oliver or Harry because he's 6'6 340 lb's. 

 

As far as McD's scheme goes, you'r right. usually it is a 1 and 3. He's played 3 and 3 multiple times a game also where he has 2 linebackers come up over the middle covering the 1 and 1, but the linebackers usually back off when the ball is snapped. Regardless, having Oliver/Jordan playing the DT spots, is better than having Star playing a DT spot. which was my point, regardless of whether its 1 or 3, Jordan plays better than Star. Stars replaceable, and Jordan can replace him on the roster. It's that simple regardless of where Star is lined up.

 

And, Jordan has stated before that he wants to be here. He wants to be a bill.

And, there is a potential out in Star's contract after this season. This will be his last year in a bills uni. Bill's will cut him after the season. You can bank on that.

 

 

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7 minutes ago, costrovs said:

 

Nice, I agree with all that. 

 

Except, that when talking about Star at 1-tech, he doesn't get double teamed as much as Oliver, and Star isn't good at getting into the backfield.

Just because Star is playing 1 tech doesn't mean the opposing o-line is gonna double team him.

Which is why I said Jordan can do a better job than star at the 1-tech. which he has and does.

The reason why the 1-tech is expected to take on double teams, is because 1-tech's are better suited for big guys such as Jordan. But, again Star doesn't get double teamed as much as people realize. The OL is to busy double teaming Oliver.

 

Everything that you wrote and that I put in bold, reiterates the reason why Jordan played better and is better suited at 1-tech than Star. 

 

Hell, Oliver too. and even Harry played better than Star(at 1-tech) in his limited time on the field. So as far as that goes they can all replace Star. Jordan is just better suited for it than Oliver or Harry because he's 6'6 340 lb's. 

 

As far as McD's scheme goes, you'r right. usually it is a 1 and 3. He's played 3 and 3 multiple times a game also where he has 2 linebackers come up over the middle covering the 1 and 1, but the linebackers usually back off when the ball is snapped. Regardless, having Oliver/Jordan playing the DT spots, is better than having Star playing a DT spot. which was my point, regardless of whether its 1 or 3, Jordan plays better than Star. Stars replaceable, and Jordan can replace him on the roster. It's that simple regardless of where Star is lined up.

 

And, Jordan has stated before that he wants to be here. He wants to be a bill.

And, there is a potential out in Star's contract after this season. This will be his last year in a bills uni. Bill's will cut him after the season. You can bank on that.

 

 

Please go read all the threads on DTs. The vast majority of this is completely wrong and has been thoroughly discussed in great detail elsewhere.

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3 hours ago, GoBills808 said:

No offense but this is nonsense.

By costrovs thinking, we could move Spain a couple of feet to his left and he could play LT as well as Dawkins.  

I stopped replying when he posted that nonsense.

I don't think Jordan will be here next year. Someone will pay more than we're willing to. We can't pay someone that much who won't even start for us. Unless our staff feels he can handle Star's position. I mean it is only 3.5 ft different. 😄

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16 minutes ago, costrovs said:

 

Nice, I agree with all that. 

 

Except, that when talking about Star at 1-tech, he doesn't get double teamed as much as Oliver, and Star isn't good at getting into the backfield.

Just because Star is playing 1 tech doesn't mean the opposing o-line is gonna double team him.

Which is why I said Jordan can do a better job than star at the 1-tech. which he has and does.

The reason why the 1-tech is expected to take on double teams, is because 1-tech's are better suited for big guys such as Jordan. But, again Star doesn't get double teamed as much as people realize. The OL is to busy double teaming Oliver.

 

Everything that you wrote and that I put in bold, reiterates the reason why Jordan played better and is better suited at 1-tech than Star. 

 

Hell, Oliver too. and even Harry played better than Star(at 1-tech) in his limited time on the field. So as far as that goes they can all replace Star. Jordan is just better suited for it than Oliver or Harry because he's 6'6 340 lb's. 

 

As far as McD's scheme goes, you'r right. usually it is a 1 and 3. He's played 3 and 3 multiple times a game also where he has 2 linebackers come up over the middle covering the 1 and 1, but the linebackers usually back off when the ball is snapped. Regardless, having Oliver/Jordan playing the DT spots, is better than having Star playing a DT spot. which was my point, regardless of whether its 1 or 3, Jordan plays better than Star. Stars replaceable, and Jordan can replace him on the roster. It's that simple regardless of where Star is lined up.

 

And, Jordan has stated before that he wants to be here. He wants to be a bill.

And, there is a potential out in Star's contract after this season. This will be his last year in a bills uni. Bill's will cut him after the season. You can bank on that.

 

 

 

See, this is where it gets tough.  You chided @JoPoy88 "You can't sit there and say 'Believe it or not, there’s more to it than simply where the tackle lines up on the line' then give me a 3rd grade answer man.". 

 

So I gave you a simple but essentially correct answer that's a bit more than 3rd grade, you say you agree, and then you say a bunch more stuff that shows it whooshed completely over your head.  You really need to read about the roles of different DLmen.  It's about who the lineman is supposed to take on, not just about who the offense assigns to block them, and no, Jordan Phillips is not better suited to play 1-tech just because he's a big guy.

 

 

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On 1/19/2020 at 1:29 PM, costrovs said:

 

1. you're right, it can be give. but everyone knows it's really pass. all the other youtube videos say pass, not give. 

2. my bad, i dont use the forums that much, that was meant for Hapless, saying that Harry/Star rotated, which can only be the case for the first 3 games this year, because Harry went to IR. So that wasn't the rotation for the season. 

3. C'mon man, Star is useless. They hardly ever double team him, he's too fat and slow. 

He's not getting much playing time for being starter, and that's with Harry on IR, I'm sure he'll be playing less once Harry comes back. Plus, according to spotrac.com their is a 'potential out' in his contract after 2020 season. I'm sure this will be his last season in a Bills uni.

 

Star - only 8 games this season with over 50% of the snaps

Jordan - 11 

Oliver - 9 over 50%, 12 including games at exactly 50%

 

https://www.pro-football-reference.com/teams/buf/2019.htm

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=l8wscdKgigA

 

 

 

 

 

Star is a two-down guy. But he's a two-down guy who gets the job done that they want done.

 

He is still doing what they want from him, same as he did in Carolina, eating space, taking up blockers. He doesn't run up stats, but they've made it clear, players and coaches, that what he does is valuable and they like how he does it.

 

And it simply isn't true that he doesn't get doubled much. He does, particularly when teams are going to try to run through the middle. And he does a good job taking up those doubles.

 

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