NYG requested permission to interview Daboll for OC - DENIED

[GunnerBill]

8 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Fair enough. 

 

However the Bills were .500 over the 3 previous seasons before McDermott arrived.  Not great but not a "bad team" either.  And it was a pretty stacked roster at WR and OLine and DLine and RB and DB.  If Rex coulda coached D we would have been in the playoffs.

 

Rams, Broncos, Bears, and Eagles all hired new OCs.  They all have prolific offensive head coaches and they didn't talk to Daboll. 

 

I hope you're right that it all just needs  one more year to bake in.

 

The Broncos have a prolific offensive head coach? 

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I love how many people on here think Dabol sux but the players, coaches and other teams think he is great, which confirms what i already know is that he is great. The only thing i would like him to do is be more balanced, other than that glad he is back.

 

 

[Nihilarian]

8 hours ago, Mr. WEO said:

 

We all recognize that.  But it doesn't answer the question.  The O-line, revamped, is still not that good.  WR, a position McD has struggled with sicne he got here is still a major need, as is another RB (not one ending his career here).   I have no doubt that McD does EVERYTHING intensely.  But "more intensity" from him isn't going to change the Offense output.

 

Continuity is acceptable if you are starting with a coach with demonstrated success.  Daboll wasn't and isn't that guy.  He has succeeded nowhere as OC in this league.  He has succeeded in placing himself in proximity to great coaches and launching those associations into better jobs.  Given his best chance to shine in a playoff game, his late game playcalling was disastrous.

Thank you!

 

For objectively stating the obvious to those to can't see what some of us do see. 

 

@Shaw66You are really too nice a guy in thinking that things will change for the better by just adding a few new pieces and another year of development and experience.

 

Look at the 2016 Los Angles Rams with Jeff Fisher, John Fassel and Rob Boras as the OC. That year the Rams drafted QB Jared Goff #1 overall and he looked horrid after starting him, going 0-7 with a 54.6 completion percentage and 5 TD's, 7 INT's. There were big questions after this season as if the rams had made a tragic error in selecting Goff #1 overall. The Rams even had RB Todd Gurley and ran him 278 times that season.

 

The next season the Rams hire Sean McVay as HC and Matt Lefluer as OC and suddenly that QB who looked so bad as a rookie started looking like that #1 overall that they were hoping for with Goff going 11-4. It also helped the Rams successfully pounded the rock with Todd Gurley at RB to help out Goff. Gurley got about the same carries as the year previous but saw far more success with the new coaching staff. The #1 offense in points scored. The next year #2 overall offense and 13-3. 

 

It doesn't take a full season to develop "continuity" in any aspect of an offense as that is why they have OTAs, training camp and four full games of pre season. I heard this same excuse for Chan Gailey over and over, along with others who failed. Marrone with Hackett, etc.

 

How did "continuity" help Aaron Rodgers with Mike McCarthy as HC/play caller? The 2019 Packers 13-3 with a new HC who also calls the plays. The Packers are also running the ball more successfully this season and helping out Rodgers by taking pressure off of him to not have to carry the game with his arm. 

 

Look at the 49ers this season, 478 passing attempts vs 498 rushing attempts and this without a 1000 yard rusher on the team. They have three different backs all over 500 yards. The 2019 49ers 13-3 and a good bet to win the super bowl this season. 

 

Oh, but it's a passing league...the 14-2 Ravens, #1 in the league in rushing...were handily beaten by a team better at rushing the ball with the leagues leading rusher...

 

 

This Bills OC is bad at the majority of the offense. Bad at O line blocking schemes, protections against the better teams and most of all the O line penalties against nearly everyone. Bad at finding ways to run the ball in any situation. Bad at properly developing a young QB (by ever asking him to throw more than 35 times a game as that's usually what losing QB's do). Bad at game situational awareness and making adjustments during games to counter what the opposing defense is doing. Bad at seeing the talent at hand and recognizing if a player can do his job or not. Bad at maximizing the talent on the roster for success. 

 

Its rather clear to me that when the Bills pounded the ball on the ground and ran more than they threw the ball, they usually won every game. Conversely, when they asked the QB to carry the game with his arm by throwing more than running, they usually lost. The larger the disparity in throwing over running, the worse it looked for Buffalo.

 

 Don't blame the QB,  how did the 2018 6-9-1 Green Bay Packers look with Aaron Rodgers at QB? How have the Atlanta Falcons looked the last two seasons 7-9 with Matt Ryan at QB?

[GunnerBill]

24 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Thank you!

 

For objectively stating the obvious to those to can't see what some of us do see. 

 

@Shaw66You are really too nice a guy in thinking that things will change for the better by just adding a few new pieces and another year of development and experience.

 

Look at the 2016 Los Angles Rams with Jeff Fisher, John Fassel and Rob Boras as the OC. That year the Rams drafted QB Jared Goff #1 overall and he looked horrid after starting him, going 0-7 with a 54.6 completion percentage and 5 TD's, 7 INT's. There were big questions after this season as if the rams had made a tragic error in selecting Goff #1 overall. The Rams even had RB Todd Gurley and ran him 278 times that season.

 

The next season the Rams hire Sean McVay as HC and Matt Lefluer as OC and suddenly that QB who looked so bad as a rookie started looking like that #1 overall that they were hoping for with Goff going 11-4. It also helped the Rams successfully pounded the rock with Todd Gurley at RB to help out Goff. Gurley got about the same carries as the year previous but saw far more success with the new coaching staff. The #1 offense in points scored. The next year #2 overall offense and 13-3. 

 

 

Do you want me to tell you what else the Rams did that offseason? They rebuilt their offensive line totally. They went from the worst starting left tackle in football in 2016 (Greg Robinson) to one of the very best of the last decade, multiple all-pro, and a future Hall of Famer (Andrew Whitworth). They went from a center who after starting all season for the Rams in 2016 has never taken another snap in the NFL and has been out of the league since spending one week on the 49ers roster in 2017 (Tim Barnes) to a first team all-pro center (John Sullivan).

 

They also massively upgraded at wide receiver. They went from a wide receiver corps of Tavon Austin (a 1st round bust who has never been a starter since), Kenny Britt (a 1st round bust who has only appeared in 4 NFL games since) and Brian Quick (11 NFL targets since the Rams dumped him after that season and now out of the NFL) to the traded for Sammy Watkins, the priority FA pickup Robert Woods and drafted Cooper Kupp.

 

It was a major, major talent upgrade. Todd Gurley, who you mentioned, went from 3.2 yards a carry to 4.7 yards a carry. Do I think the move to McVay's stretch zone played a part in that? Sure. But three new starters on the offensive line including two top end players and all pro level talents had a significant part to play too.

 

The easiest way to upgrade your offense? Get better talent.

[Billsfan1972]

11 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Actually, the Bills were a mediocre team when they hired McDermott.  9-7, 8-8, 7-9 last 3 years.

You mean 24-24 vs. 25-25 with McD, but yes Playoffs.....

[Billsfan1972]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Thank you!

 

For objectively stating the obvious to those to can't see what some of us do see. 

 

@Shaw66You are really too nice a guy in thinking that things will change for the better by just adding a few new pieces and another year of development and experience.

 

Look at the 2016 Los Angles Rams with Jeff Fisher, John Fassel and Rob Boras as the OC. That year the Rams drafted QB Jared Goff #1 overall and he looked horrid after starting him, going 0-7 with a 54.6 completion percentage and 5 TD's, 7 INT's. There were big questions after this season as if the rams had made a tragic error in selecting Goff #1 overall. The Rams even had RB Todd Gurley and ran him 278 times that season.

 

The next season the Rams hire Sean McVay as HC and Matt Lefluer as OC and suddenly that QB who looked so bad as a rookie started looking like that #1 overall that they were hoping for with Goff going 11-4. It also helped the Rams successfully pounded the rock with Todd Gurley at RB to help out Goff. Gurley got about the same carries as the year previous but saw far more success with the new coaching staff. The #1 offense in points scored. The next year #2 overall offense and 13-3. 

 

It doesn't take a full season to develop "continuity" in any aspect of an offense as that is why they have OTAs, training camp and four full games of pre season. I heard this same excuse for Chan Gailey over and over, along with others who failed. Marrone with Hackett, etc.

 

How did "continuity" help Aaron Rodgers with Mike McCarthy as HC/play caller? The 2019 Packers 13-3 with a new HC who also calls the plays. The Packers are also running the ball more successfully this season and helping out Rodgers by taking pressure off of him to not have to carry the game with his arm. 

 

Look at the 49ers this season, 478 passing attempts vs 498 rushing attempts and this without a 1000 yard rusher on the team. They have three different backs all over 500 yards. The 2019 49ers 13-3 and a good bet to win the super bowl this season. 

 

Oh, but it's a passing league...the 14-2 Ravens, #1 in the league in rushing...were handily beaten by a team better at rushing the ball with the leagues leading rusher...

 

 

This Bills OC is bad at the majority of the offense. Bad at O line blocking schemes, protections against the better teams and most of all the O line penalties against nearly everyone. Bad at finding ways to run the ball in any situation. Bad at properly developing a young QB (by ever asking him to throw more than 35 times a game as that's usually what losing QB's do). Bad at game situational awareness and making adjustments during games to counter what the opposing defense is doing. Bad at seeing the talent at hand and recognizing if a player can do his job or not. Bad at maximizing the talent on the roster for success. 

 

Its rather clear to me that when the Bills pounded the ball on the ground and ran more than they threw the ball, they usually won every game. Conversely, when they asked the QB to carry the game with his arm by throwing more than running, they usually lost. The larger the disparity in throwing over running, the worse it looked for Buffalo.

 

 Don't blame the QB,  how did the 2018 6-9-1 Green Bay Packers look with Aaron Rodgers at QB? How have the Atlanta Falcons looked the last two seasons 7-9 with Matt Ryan at QB?

And how do KC & NO look.....  Still need to pass the ball and be able to come back in games when necessary.  As great as Baltimore was, as soon as they were punched in the mouth they went down.

[delirious]

All the Daboll hate is getting really insufferable. 

[BigBillsFan]

6 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I agree a power run guy (perhaps one in his 20s) would be nice to complement Singletary.  But the lack of carries he had all year (let alone the playoff debacle) is pathetic.  It clearly shows how Daboll sees what's working, then abandons it.

 

100% correct. He's too interested in being clever vs being right

 

But that falls on your HC. Just like when the defense was faltering Frasier lost his playcall duties and the fact he gives all that power to someone who abandons the run way too often is beyond amazing.

 

I'm going to prophesy the future: if we have a bad season next year people will call for McDermott's head to be fired. They will call this year a fluke and as much as I want the Bills to succeed I don't see it happening without us paying premium money for an OC/assistant HC who can keep Daboll in check and learn how to GULP run the ball and throw screen passes and swing passes to the RB.

 

The mystery is how can the same guy who had such great playcalling in the 1st series in the Texans game not even try doing it again in the game? All the motion, all of the great designs... GONE after the 1st sequence.

[Nihilarian]

4 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And how do KC & NO look.....  Still need to pass the ball and be able to come back in games when necessary.  As great as Baltimore was, as soon as they were punched in the mouth they went down.

Think about this. 

 

Your team goes 13-3, gets home field in the first WC game. Has one of the greatest QB's of all time behind center. Yet, still gets beat at home by a team that ran at them 40 times. Vikings RB Dalvin Cook gained 130 yards from scrimmage and scored two TDs.

 

Saints HC after the game, "They made more plays than we did," Payton said. "They ran the ball better than we did."

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401131038

 

As bad as I feel being a Bills fan. Its gotta be even worse for Saints fans in knowing that this might have been the last hurrah with Brees at QB. The second straight season the Saints ended their year with an overtime loss. 

 

Anyway, my entire point was that NFL teams can still win by running the ball and with Buffalo having a young, inexperienced QB under center that perhaps that is exactly what they should have been doing every week. That even star QB's like Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan can have bad seasons without a great run game to help support them!

 

[Billsfan1972]

42 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Think about this. 

 

Your team goes 13-3, gets home field in the first WC game. Has one of the greatest QB's of all time behind center. Yet, still gets beat at home by a team that ran at them 40 times. Vikings RB Dalvin Cook gained 130 yards from scrimmage and scored two TDs.

 

Saints HC after the game, "They made more plays than we did," Payton said. "They ran the ball better than we did."

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401131038

 

As bad as I feel being a Bills fan. Its gotta be even worse for Saints fans in knowing that this might have been the last hurrah with Brees at QB. The second straight season the Saints ended their year with an overtime loss. 

 

Anyway, my entire point was that NFL teams can still win by running the ball and with Buffalo having a young, inexperienced QB under center that perhaps that is exactly what they should have been doing every week. That even star QB's like Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan can have bad seasons without a great run game to help support them!

 

I will not argue that running the ball is important, but also must be able to score points when needed.

 

Another team was down 24-0 & then scored 51 points.

 

Payton coached a terrible game and yep still lost thanks to a coin toss in OT.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

1 hour ago, delirious said:

All the Daboll hate is getting really insufferable. 

 

Freedom of choice is yours: to see, and to avoid.

 

As for Daboll, he's in the same boat as Allen with some of the fans.  When Allen plays more consistently and stops pulling bonehead crap like leaving the ball in position to be stripped while he ponders "should I throw or should I go now?" or taking dumb sacks, he'll get less criticism.  When fans stop having questions like "Singletary was running so well, why did he only have 13 carries?  Why did we stop feeding the rock to him 4Q and OT?" Daboll will field less criticism too.

 

2 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

You mean 24-24 vs. 25-25 with McD, but yes Playoffs.....

 

?

[Gugny]

8 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm not sure what it shows.  They don't necessarily show what's going on on the sidelines.  Maybe Singletary has been suffering lingering effects from that hamstring injury all season.  Maybe they have him on a pitch count.  Maybe he needs to come off periodically and get stretched and massaged, I don't know.

 

Maybe Allen is supposed to run Singletary more but keeps checking to pass plays. 

 

Or maybe it is Daboll having his head up his butt.  I don't know. 

 

It's a mystery we fans can not solve.

 

True … we'll never know the real reasons.  But let's say there was a pitch count and/or a lingering injury … then, at best, it's horrible roster management.  If they knew Singletary had to be limited AND chose to only suit up Singletary and Gore - while leaving Yeldon inactive every week - then it's still a very, very big problem.

 

The fact that they had Duke Williams inactive for the majority of the regular season only to activate him and make him THE focal point of the passing game in the playoffs worries me.  This, coupled with the mismanagement of the running game (I think it's clear that it was mismanaged, regardless of whichever reason is the real one), should be a major concern.

 

I think about the mismanagement of the roster throughout this season, which then reminds me of when we went INTO the season with Nathan Peterman and rookie Josh Allen.

 

These are huge blunders.

[CBennett]

On 1/15/2020 at 11:24 PM, Happy Gilmore said:

Why couldn't Daboll have been allowed to interview for the position?  Good way to get rid of his bearded bowling ball head without having to fire him.

because some actually value him OR he wouldnt be getting looked at for HC or other OC jobs.....and think on this.....who would you trust more to know a decent coach from a poor one...other guys IN NFL football OR some fan that just has a axe to grind because he didnt like this or that??

[Mr. WEO]

9 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I'm having trouble decoding if your beef is with the talent on offense, or with Daboll?

 

When they decided to overhaul the offense last off season, they brought in a high-priced center in Mitch Morse and selected a guy in the 2nd round (Ford) but other than that, Beane basically shopped at Kohls.  He signed Spain (UDFA), whom the Titans moved on from to upgrade to Saffold.  He pulled capable backups from the Redskins (Nsekhe, UDFA) and Oakland (Feliciano, a 2015 4th round pick).  These guys can play, and Beane got good value for the cost, and they looked like a miraculous upgrade to last year's line, but there's probably a reason that they don't measure up well against the best defenses.    The best OLs usually feature a couple former first round picks.....

 

We are currently 23rd overall in our spending on offensive line.  There's kind of a theme there: 25th in spending on RB, 15th in spending on WR, 11th in spending on TE (but the big $$ guy didn't work out). 

 

Money isn't everything, but since the OL is the engine that powers both pass and rush game, some might say that our #23 ranked offense is a case of "get what you pay for".

 

If Beane and McDermott really want to be able to evaluate Allen and help him succeed, they better shore up the OL some more and (imo) acquire a better TE and an RB.  And draft a WR.

 

 

 

Well, Daboll for sure.

 

But the other poster was going on about how McD will be intensely improving the Offense (again) this off-season.  Many here have legitimately questioned McD's ablility to build an offense.  3 years in and they are still looking more quality at RB/TE/WR...and O-line.   He's done a nice job on the Defensive roster, but 3 years and his Offense still struggles to score points.

 

I don't think most teams blow their budget on O-line FAs anyway, so I don't think cost matters.  It shouldn't anyway--this team is sitting on tons of cash.

 

[jimmy10]

NICE. I went to a SUNY school so I have a bunch of goony friends from downstate. I love giving them ***** about the Giants. 

[Dopey]

2 hours ago, delirious said:

All the Daboll hate is getting really insufferable. 

Don't you know that every year there has to be a whupping boy here for some? It's a tradition.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Gugny said:

 

True … we'll never know the real reasons.  But let's say there was a pitch count and/or a lingering injury … then, at best, it's horrible roster management.  If they knew Singletary had to be limited AND chose to only suit up Singletary and Gore - while leaving Yeldon inactive every week - then it's still a very, very big problem.

 

The fact that they had Duke Williams inactive for the majority of the regular season only to activate him and make him THE focal point of the passing game in the playoffs worries me.  This, coupled with the mismanagement of the running game (I think it's clear that it was mismanaged, regardless of whichever reason is the real one), should be a major concern.

 

I think about the mismanagement of the roster throughout this season, which then reminds me of when we went INTO the season with Nathan Peterman and rookie Josh Allen.

 

These are huge blunders.

 

It's a fair point.  If they don't like Yeldon (and I don't see what's to love in the 6 yds on 6 carries he managed outside his 12 yd scamper vs Jets), then they should have been scouring the practice squads of other teams or even trying to work a trade to improve the RB room.  It's either player misuse, or roster mismanagement.  When they didn't like the DL and Horrible Harry IR'd, they brought in Liuget.  If Singletary was still limited by the hamstring and they don't like Yeldon, bring in someone else.

 

Even Beane admits he blundered in not doing enough for the OL in 2018 and that it hurt Josh's development.  The same can be said for WR, and now RB (

 

I give them a pass (hurr, hurr, see what I did there?) on Duke - they played him for 3 games in October and apparently didn't like what they saw.  He saw declining targets and receptions in those 3 games.  Perhaps he was struggling with the playbook or in practice - I don't know.  He did seem to injure his shoulder if I recall.

 

It also seems as though perhaps Daboll may have a bit of the "Red Headed Stepchild" role.  He stepped into Dennison's staff instead of dismissing them and bringing in his own his first year.  QB coach, OL coach, WR coach were all McDermott picks, I believe - wasn't the OL coach hired before Dennison was?  Perhaps he felt he couldn't lobby hard for what he needed on offense.  I hope that's changed.

 

Or perhaps Daboll just has bad judgement about what he needs on offense, and doesn't prioritize the run game high enough.

 

 

This is my major caveat with the current FO and coaching.  It just seems as though when it comes to offense, they have a "Low Interest Rate" and/or insufficient talent evaluation.

 

[Gugny]

8 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's a fair point.  If they don't like Yeldon (and I don't see what's to love in the 6 yds on 6 carries he managed outside his 12 yd scamper vs Jets), then they should have been scouring the practice squads of other teams or even trying to work a trade to improve the RB room.  It's either player misuse, or roster mismanagement.  When they didn't like the DL and Horrible Harry IR'd, they brought in Liuget.  If Singletary was still limited by the hamstring and they don't like Yeldon, bring in someone else.

 

Even Beane admits he blundered in not doing enough for the OL in 2018 and that it hurt Josh's development.  The same can be said for WR, and now RB (

 

I give them a pass (hurr, hurr, see what I did there?) on Duke - they played him for 3 games in October and apparently didn't like what they saw.  He saw declining targets and receptions in those 3 games.  Perhaps he was struggling with the playbook or in practice - I don't know.  He did seem to injure his shoulder if I recall.

 

It also seems as though perhaps Daboll may have a bit of the "Red Headed Stepchild" role.  He stepped into Dennison's staff instead of dismissing them and bringing in his own his first year.  QB coach, OL coach, WR coach were all McDermott picks, I believe - wasn't the OL coach hired before Dennison was?  Perhaps he felt he couldn't lobby hard for what he needed on offense.  I hope that's changed.

 

Or perhaps Daboll just has bad judgement about what he needs on offense, and doesn't prioritize the run game high enough.

 

 

This is my major caveat with the current FO and coaching.  It just seems as though when it comes to offense, they have a "Low Interest Rate" and/or insufficient talent evaluation.

 

 

I agree with all of this and as much as I want to love Beane and McDermott, I have my concerns.  To be clear (in general/to anyone reading) … I am NOT calling for anyone's head.  However, we are three years into this regime and they have yet to handle/prepare the offense properly.  That is no Bueno.

[GunnerBill]

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

Think about this. 

 

Your team goes 13-3, gets home field in the first WC game. Has one of the greatest QB's of all time behind center. Yet, still gets beat at home by a team that ran at them 40 times. Vikings RB Dalvin Cook gained 130 yards from scrimmage and scored two TDs.

 

Saints HC after the game, "They made more plays than we did," Payton said. "They ran the ball better than we did."

 

https://www.espn.com/nfl/recap?gameId=401131038

 

As bad as I feel being a Bills fan. Its gotta be even worse for Saints fans in knowing that this might have been the last hurrah with Brees at QB. The second straight season the Saints ended their year with an overtime loss. 

 

Anyway, my entire point was that NFL teams can still win by running the ball and with Buffalo having a young, inexperienced QB under center that perhaps that is exactly what they should have been doing every week. That even star QB's like Aaron Rodgers and Matt Ryan can have bad seasons without a great run game to help support them!

 

 

I think what they should be doing is focussing on developing their inexperienced QB into a star QB. And they don't do that running it 40 times a game.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

4 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Do you want me to tell you what else the Rams did that offseason? They rebuilt their offensive line totally. They went from the worst starting left tackle in football in 2016 (Greg Robinson) to one of the very best of the last decade, multiple all-pro, and a future Hall of Famer (Andrew Whitworth). They went from a center who after starting all season for the Rams in 2016 has never taken another snap in the NFL and has been out of the league since spending one week on the 49ers roster in 2017 (Tim Barnes) to a first team all-pro center (John Sullivan).

 

They also massively upgraded at wide receiver. They went from a wide receiver corps of Tavon Austin (a 1st round bust who has never been a starter since), Kenny Britt (a 1st round bust who has only appeared in 4 NFL games since) and Brian Quick (11 NFL targets since the Rams dumped him after that season and now out of the NFL) to the traded for Sammy Watkins, the priority FA pickup Robert Woods and drafted Cooper Kupp.

 

It was a major, major talent upgrade. Todd Gurley, who you mentioned, went from 3.2 yards a carry to 4.7 yards a carry. Do I think the move to McVay's stretch zone played a part in that? Sure. But three new starters on the offensive line including two top end players and all pro level talents had a significant part to play too.

 

The easiest way to upgrade your offense? Get better talent.

 

All these are great points, but it has to be noted that Frank Cignetti (2015 OC) and Rob Boras (2015 TE coach promoted to OC after Cignetti fired) would seem to be a Special kind of Bad as OC.  They managed to make the following QB look like a hot mess:

-Nick Foles (probowl year in Philly then good partial season in Philly with Shurmur as OC; decent play as backup in KC with Reid 2016; Championship and Superbowl win with Reich and DeFilippo in Philly 2017 2018)

-Case Keenum (11-3, championship game with Shurmur 2017)

-Jared Goff (playoffs 2017, championship 2018 with McVay)

Now these are all guys with limitations, but they're also all guys who showed they can have success with the right coaching and support.

 

I think it can be argued that it takes a special kind of coach/system to make not one, not two, but THREE QB who had success before and after look like crap.

 

Rob Boras, BTW, is now our TE coach and I lived in fear of what I'd hear if Daboll left.

 

20 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think what they should be doing is focussing on developing their inexperienced QB into a star QB. And they don't do that running it 40 times a game.

 

I think they should be focusing on developing their inexperienced QB too, and it is justly said that an inexperienced QB's best friend is a strong run game.

 

A QB who knows he can move the chains by handing it off and taking the check-down under pressure is a QB who just might be less inclined to do boneheaded things or to force throws

[GunnerBill]

5 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

All these are great points, but it has to be noted that Frank Cignetti (2015 OC) and Rob Boras (2015 TE coach promoted to OC after Cignetti fired) would seem to be a Special kind of Bad as OC.  They managed to make the following QB look like a hot mess:

-Nick Foles (probowl year in Philly then good partial season in Philly with Shurmur as OC; decent play as backup in KC with Reid 2016; Championship and Superbowl win with Reich and DeFilippo in Philly 2017 2018)

-Case Keenum (11-3, championship game with Shurmur 2017)

-Jared Goff (playoffs 2017, championship 2018 with McVay)

Now these are all guys with limitations, but they're also all guys who showed they can have success with the right coaching and support.

 

I think it can be argued that it takes a special kind of coach/system to make not one, not two, but THREE QB who had success before and after look like crap.

 

Rob Boras, BTW, is now our TE coach and I lived in fear of what I'd hear if Daboll left.

 

Yea I agree the offensive coordinator position was not at all good in St Louis / LA - but what is also true is that wide receiver corps is a special kind of bad too. I mean that might rival the 2018 Bills for ineptitude.

 

 

[SoCal Deek]

My problem with Daboll is that he seems to lose creativity as the game goes on. He can do it, but he gets in a rut. There were flashes of excellent play calling during many games this season, in which it was clear he was using motion or play action to make a play that was purposely designed to set up the next play. Then....nothing. A textbook example was the middle range ‘deep’ ball to Brown against the Texans. Play action at the line, froze the defense and Brown was wide open! But....we never saw that play again....ugh.

[Dr. Who]

Fantasy offseason: Sign Conklin, Scherff, and Hooper in free agency.

Spend draft capital and move up for Jeudy or maybe a slightly smaller trade up and get Ruggs, draft a back like Najee Harris, and another good wr in a draft with depth at the position. This is an offseason where the priority has to be offense.

[GunnerBill]

6 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I think they should be focusing on developing their inexperienced QB too, and it is justly said that an inexperienced QB's best friend is a strong run game.

 

A QB who knows he can move the chains by handing it off and taking the check-down under pressure is a QB who just might be less inclined to do boneheaded things or to force throws

 

I think there is a really fine balance. I think not destroying confidence by consistently making bonehead mistakes is one thing and you have to keep that in mind. But you equally cannot hide them too much. If you don't ask a Quarterback to drop back, make reads and throw the football he doesn't learn to do that turning around and handing it off to a back. There Bills were top 5 or 6 in the league in % of rush attempts. I think wanting them to go even further towards the run does risk trying to turn Josh Allen into a game manager and I think we all agree that is not where we hope that he will end up.

 

I have always been more in the "I'll live with the mistakes now" camp. I don't want to stop Josh playing hero ball even if it costs us a win or two this year or next year. If Josh comes out of his rookie deal as a bona fide, consensus, franchise QB capable of being a regular top 10 guy then it is absolutely worth losing the odd game that we might have won had we run it a bit more. I had more of an issue in the playoff game because I think once you are in the tournament well then it is only about winning and also the second half and OT the run to pass ratio was way out of kilter.

[Shaw66]

51 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

It's a fair point.  If they don't like Yeldon (and I don't see what's to love in the 6 yds on 6 carries he managed outside his 12 yd scamper vs Jets), then they should have been scouring the practice squads of other teams or even trying to work a trade to improve the RB room.  It's either player misuse, or roster mismanagement.  When they didn't like the DL and Horrible Harry IR'd, they brought in Liuget.  If Singletary was still limited by the hamstring and they don't like Yeldon, bring in someone else.

 

Even Beane admits he blundered in not doing enough for the OL in 2018 and that it hurt Josh's development.  The same can be said for WR, and now RB (

 

I give them a pass (hurr, hurr, see what I did there?) on Duke - they played him for 3 games in October and apparently didn't like what they saw.  He saw declining targets and receptions in those 3 games.  Perhaps he was struggling with the playbook or in practice - I don't know.  He did seem to injure his shoulder if I recall.

 

It also seems as though perhaps Daboll may have a bit of the "Red Headed Stepchild" role.  He stepped into Dennison's staff instead of dismissing them and bringing in his own his first year.  QB coach, OL coach, WR coach were all McDermott picks, I believe - wasn't the OL coach hired before Dennison was?  Perhaps he felt he couldn't lobby hard for what he needed on offense.  I hope that's changed.

 

Or perhaps Daboll just has bad judgement about what he needs on offense, and doesn't prioritize the run game high enough.

 

 

This is my major caveat with the current FO and coaching.  It just seems as though when it comes to offense, they have a "Low Interest Rate" and/or insufficient talent evaluation.

 

This continues to be a great discussion.  

 

I think there's an aspect to how McDermott operates that is on display in this thread and particularly in this post.  

 

McDermott believes in the process.   The process involves teaching, development, growth, growing together as a team.  He believes there is great strength, an advantage to be gained, by continuity - teaching and developing the same thing, game after game, season after season.   That's all at the core of what he does.   He believes in continuous improvement.   Now, we can come up with all kinds of arguments about why he ought to do things differently, but that's how he does things.  He believes in young talent, because his system expects that players will take multiple years to grow into guys who fit into the team and make the team better. 

 

So take Duke as an example.   I was one of the biggest Duke fans around here from the day the Bills signed him.   But Duke's not young, and he's in his first season in the system.   Foster is young and is in his second season in the system.   I would guess that Foster, all season long, showed a better understanding of what the team was doing, of what McDermott and Daboll expected of him, than Duke did.  Again, we can holler all we want about size, catch radius, etc., etc. but that is only one aspect of the total evaluation they're doing of every player every week.  

 

Yeldon's the same thing.   I don't get Yeldon at all.  I mean, the guy has some skills, but he's never flashed (at least when I've seen him) any NFL-level skill that would make him valuable.  I don't know, but I would guess that McDermott sees things in him that, with time, will make him a valuable piece in the offense, on a spot basis.  I don't know that - pure guess.  

 

Josh is perfect for how McDermott sees his job.   A guy with talent who needs to be developed, who can grow and grow and grow.   He's young, he works hard, he's committed.   McDermot wants a team full of those guys. 

 

I can't tell you what they're doing is right and is going to work, although I think it is and it will.  But it explains why Duke sat all year, it explains why they didn't grab a running back off some practice squad (McDermott wants no part of adding players who haven't been through OTAs and training camp.   It's about the system, and bringing a guy in in mid-season it's contrary to what he wants.  He wants guys for multiple years.)

 

And so we come back to Daboll.  What I've been saying is that I view Daboll in the context of how McDermott does everything.   McDermott is looking for growth and development and evolution.   The fact that Daboll has survived two seasons with McDermott means that Daboll buys into that notion and is working at improving the way McDermott wants.  

 

And although I can't give any evidence, I am absolutely certain that Low Interest Rate is NOT what's going on here.   McDermott is about winning, not about defense.   There's just no way he is not paying attention to this.   I just think that his approach to the game results in gradual, steady improvement that is supposed to result in long-term excellence.  Whether that is the right approach, I don't know.  I do know that it makes no sense to be disappointed that a slow-and-steady approach to development hasn't yielded short-term excellence.   

 

Beane never said it straight out, but he had a press conference in 2018 when he pretty much said that 2020 was the first season he expected to see a really good team in Buffalo.  They said 2018 would be worse than 2017, and it was.   They said 2019 was when we'd start to see the first results of their building process, and it was.  2020 was the season he expected, if all went well, that we'd start to see a good team.   And his expectation was that after that, the team would continue to grow and improve.   

 

Everybody on the team is supposed to get better, every day and every year.   Every player, every coach.  And every player and every coach has a road map showing what and how he's supposed to get better.  Allen has one.   Daboll has one.  McDermott has one.  That's how the process works.  I think it's wrong to assume that we will see the mistakes of 2019 repeated in 2020.   McDermott's assumption is, because he believes in his system, that the mistakes will be eliminated.  If he didn't think Daboll could improve in that way, he would have replaced him.  

 

 

[Dopey]

13 hours ago, Shaw66 said:

That's true, if you're talking record.   But the team was on a path to nowhere.   Nobody, including the fans who post here, were happy with the team.   There was near jubilation when Rex was run out of town.   They had Tyrod Taylor at QB.   

 

The Browns had a decent record this year, but the post I was responding to said the Browns were a bad team, so what does it say if they're looking at Daboll.  

 

T

One and done is not the answer.   

 

It takes more than a year to build an oline, and the Bills have spent exactly one year building it.  WR was substantially upgraded in 2019 and will be again this year.  What are you saying?  Fire McD?

 

Some people just aren't listening.  McD and Beane have done through three years exactly what they told us or signalled us that they would do.   And the team has developed a solid foundation and is building.   It's what they said they would do.   When the GM and coach are giving you exactly what they promised, I don't see any reason to think they aren't doing the job.   If you didn't want what they promised, you shouldn't have hired them.   

This.

I'm listening and they are doing exactly what they told us they would be doing. We are out of salary cap hell and made the playoffs 2 out of 3 years. We have "our QB". We have a solid foundation and a great culture. In year 2 Beane even said we made the playoffs year 1, but don't expect that in year 2. We won't be as good as year 1(I paraphrased). People here freaked over how bad we were last year because, as you stated, some people just aren't listening. IMO this is the most competent staff we've had in almost 2 decades. I trust them over anyone on TBD. If it was up to some on TBD:

Half of our D-line would have been cut midway through the season, with some guy named Peko starting for Star. Can you imagine Peko and Phillips starting, because according to some on TBD Oliver was a bust  .

Edmunds would have been moved to OLB mid-season, with no answer on who would replace him at MLB. 

A 7th round de would have replaced Murphy, mid-season.

Hauschka would have been replaced mid-season by a kicker who went 5-10 from 40-49 yds and blew a game by shanking a 47 yarder for the niners and lost a game for the Colts by missing a critical FG. 

Duke would have been our "go to" wr, even though he showed in the playoffs he couldn't separate from a pretty bad secondary and dropped 2 critical passes.

Old and Broke down AJ Green would have been brought in via trade. If memory serves me right, he didn't even play this past season.

Our best kick returner would have been let go cuz he's not a great wr, even though we were told he was signed as a KR 1st, then wr depth.

Our RT would have been moved to guard, with someone named Bates replacing him.

Our starting LT would have been traded, etc.

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

11 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I think there is a really fine balance. I think not destroying confidence by consistently making bonehead mistakes is one thing and you have to keep that in mind. But you equally cannot hide them too much. If you don't ask a Quarterback to drop back, make reads and throw the football he doesn't learn to do that turning around and handing it off to a back. There Bills were top 5 or 6 in the league in % of rush attempts. I think wanting them to go even further towards the run does risk trying to turn Josh Allen into a game manager and I think we all agree that is not where we hope that he will end up.

 

I think that's BS.  First of all, it's not "wanting the Bills to go even further towards the run". 

 

The average number of offensive plays per game is 63.5.  The Bills this season were right on average with 63.6, #16 in the league.  5 playoff teams had more plays/game, and 6 had fewer, suggesting that the number of plays/game per se is not important.

 

The league average is 26 run plays per game, 35 pass plays per game.  The Bills average 32 pass plays and 29 run plays per game. 

 

Singletary averaged just under 13 rushes per game.  Allen averaged just under 7 rushes per game.  Gore averaged 10 rushes per game (8.5 apg over last 8 games)

 

Singletary averaged 6 ypa over the whole season, 4.5 ypa over the last 8 games he played.   Allen averaged 5.2 ypa over the whole season, 5.5 in the last 8 games (omitting Jets).  Gore averaged 3.5 ypa over the whole season, but 2.6 ypa over the last 8 games he played.

 

It's not just a matter of how often you run, it's a matter of who runs.  The Bills don't need to make more rush attempts; they need to make more effective use of the rush attempts they already have.  Allen could take a couple of rush attempts from himself and give them to Singletary.  He could make reads and pass on a couple more of those.

 

Most of all the Bills could stop giving so many rushes per game to a guy who is averaging 2.6 ypa, and that average is inflated by the occasional long run amoung many no- or 1 or -1 yd gains.

 

Lastly, I just want the Bills to WIN.  If we win by rushing 35 times per game and passing 29 or 30 times per game, I really don't see that it stunts Allen's growth that much.  I don't see how he's growing properly as a passer if he's running for his life and getting sloppy with his footwork because he doesn't have quite enough time or space to set up properly.

 

 

 

 

[Jrb1979]

24 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't think sucking on offense for every year for 3 years was part of the process.... and if it was it's a terrible processs....especially when the offense was a pretty good unit when they got here. 

 

Playoffs 2 out of 3 years is a great achievement. Context matters though. They backed into the playoffs in 2017 and had absolutely no shot to win anything that year. This year they had one of the easiest schedules in years. Give them credit for taking advantage, but the one playoff team they beat is a completely different team due to a QB change and they played like ***** to close out the year against the better teams of the league. 

I have always felt they have focused too much on the defense. The way the league is now having an above average offense goes a lot farther then a top defense. All the teams left were in the top half for points and offense total. I know a lot of Bills fans wish it would go back to the way it used where defense matters but I don't see that changing. 

[eball]

33 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't think sucking on offense for every year for 3 years was part of the process.... and if it was it's a terrible processs....especially when the offense was a pretty good unit when they got here. 

 

Playoffs 2 out of 3 years is a great achievement. Context matters though. They backed into the playoffs in 2017 and had absolutely no shot to win anything that year. This year they had one of the easiest schedules in years. Give them credit for taking advantage, but the one playoff team they beat is a completely different team due to a QB change and they played like ***** to close out the year against the better teams of the league. 

 

Scott, I just have to say, man, I am really sorry your Jets sucked this year.

[GunnerBill]

3 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I think that's BS.  First of all, it's not "wanting the Bills to go even further towards the run". 

 

The average number of offensive plays per game is 63.5.  The Bills this season were right on average with 63.6, #16 in the league.  5 playoff teams had more plays/game, and 6 had fewer, suggesting that the number of plays/game per se is not important.

 

The league average is 26 run plays per game, 35 pass plays per game.  The Bills average 32 pass plays and 29 run plays per game. 

 

Singletary averaged just under 13 rushes per game.  Allen averaged just under 7 rushes per game.  Gore averaged 10 rushes per game (8.5 apg over last 8 games)

 

Singletary averaged 6 ypa over the whole season, 4.5 ypa over the last 8 games he played.   Allen averaged 5.2 ypa over the whole season, 5.5 in the last 8 games (omitting Jets).  Gore averaged 3.5 ypa over the whole season, but 2.6 ypa over the last 8 games he played.

 

It's not just a matter of how often you run, it's a matter of who runs.  The Bills don't need to make more rush attempts; they need to make more effective use of the rush attempts they already have.  Allen could take a couple of rush attempts from himself and give them to Singletary.  He could make reads and pass on a couple more of those.

 

Most of all the Bills could stop giving so many rushes per game to a guy who is averaging 2.6 ypa, and that average is inflated by the occasional long run amoung many no- or 1 or -1 yd gains.

 

Lastly, I just want the Bills to WIN.  If we win by rushing 35 times per game and passing 29 or 30 times per game, I really don't see that it stunts Allen's growth that much.  I don't see how he's growing properly as a passer if he's running for his life and getting sloppy with his footwork because he doesn't have quite enough time or space to set up properly.

 

I want the Bills to win too. But I want them to win Championships. I think the most likely way of the Bills doing that is for Allen to grow into a true franchise Quarterback. To do that we are going to have to let him throw and live with the consequences if he makes some mistakes. You don't learn to read defenses in the passing game handing it off.

 

On Gore specifically - I agree. I never liked that signing. I don't think Brian Daboll was pounding the table to be given Frank Gore. At times were there too many plays where we ran Gore when Singletary could have been on the field? Sure. But equally your second running back as to be a guy capable of carrying it 5 to 8 times a game. I don't believe the Bills front office gave the coaching staff that guy.

[PIZ]

47 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I also believe McDermott doesn't want to deal with a diva type WR.... or hard to deal with personalities in general.... hope there is some give and take here. It's part of being an head coach in the NFL. Not everyone is going to be a choir boy and easy to manage. 

I don’t think McDermott is like guys like Levy were.  Levy wanted ONLY high character guys that were also choir boys. McDermott wants guys that are talented with high character and is willing to give some guys that have had issues, a chance. 

[Happy]

2 hours ago, CBennett said:

because some actually value him OR he wouldnt be getting looked at for HC or other OC jobs.....and think on this.....who would you trust more to know a decent coach from a poor one...other guys IN NFL football OR some fan that just has a axe to grind because he didnt like this or that??

 

No doubt those in the league know much more than the casual fan.  But there is also a lot of cronyism and group think that goes on, as well.  That is inherent to any organization, not just the NFL.  If Daboll was so valuable, why didn't Carolina even bother to interview him?  There was a lot of talk, but no interview.  Cleveland was the only interview he got, nothing else. 

[Shaw66]

4 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I want the Bills to win too. But I want them to win Championships. I think the most likely way of the Bills doing that is for Allen to grow into a true franchise Quarterback. To do that we are going to have to let him throw and live with the consequences if he makes some mistakes. You don't learn to read defenses in the passing game handing it off.

 

On Gore specifically - I agree. I never liked that signing. I don't think Brian Daboll was pounding the table to be given Frank Gore. At times were there too many plays where we ran Gore when Singletary could have been on the field? Sure. But equally your second running back as to be a guy capable of carrying it 5 to 8 times a game. I don't believe the Bills front office gave the coaching staff that guy.

I think this is a good assessment.   And I also appreciate Hap pointing out that the Bills did, indeed, run a lot.  Both points are valid.  

 

Allen needs the experience passing to learn how to make the passing game effective.   He has to fail before he succeeds.   

 

And the point about Singletary's backup is a valid criticism.   In retrospect, keeping Shady and letting Gore go would have helped.  Shady would give them the senior leadership they liked in Gore, but Shady would have added much more on the field.   Yes, he runs with the same style as Singletary, and you'd like a change of pace, but I'll take similar styles over Gore's simple inability to do anything except run straight ahead and get stopped.  

 

And although it isn't Gunner saying this, to those who say it's been three years and the offense should be better, I'll repeat what I said earlier.   It's a process.  It takes time.  2019 wasn't the year they expected to be great.   If a team isn't great, one side of the ball is likely to be worse than the other side.   In this case it's the offense.   In other case it might be the defense.   Where they are isn't surprising.   Disappointing to some who want faster progress, but not surprising if you've been listening to McBeane.  

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Good post, Shaw.  I'm just going to hone in on one thing:

 

1 hour ago, Shaw66 said:

I can't tell you what they're doing is right and is going to work, although I think it is and it will.  But it explains why Duke sat all year, it explains why they didn't grab a running back off some practice squad (McDermott wants no part of adding players who haven't been through OTAs and training camp.   It's about the system, and bringing a guy in in mid-season it's contrary to what he wants.  He wants guys for multiple years.)

 

Let me put bottom line up front, and say I devoutly hope you are wrong.

 

This is NOT in fact how McDermott has operated on defense.  After Horrible Harry went down with his ACL, McDermott tried to run the defense with the guys he had - Kyle Peko for example.  Peko did NOT cut the mustard, and after that became clear vs. Philly, they cut him and brought in Corey Liuget on a 1 year.  And it helped.  Vincent Taylor was also an early-season add who didn't go through OTAs and practice squad.

 

So much for not "bringing in a guy mid season".  When it's needed to keep the defense from crapping the bed after a player is lost to injury, he does it and makes it work.

 

Spain is a 1 year rental.  So is Gore.  So much for "wants guys for multiple years"  There are a bunch of mid-season adds in 2017 and 2018 but I'll leave it to this season.  Pretty sure there are more, just not doing the research at the moment.  I know they IR'd Maurice Alexander after the Iggles game and think they added a LB to our PS or maybe the roster.

 

The point is, McDermott has made moves to shore up the defense after injury.  So why not make a move to shore up the offense after injury?

 

I'll tell you why I think.  I think it's that Daboll's offense is so complex that a player brought in mid-season who isn't already pretty familiar with a similar PE system would have a better chance of flying than of mastering it.  I think it's so complex that players like Foster and Williams are struggling with its 2019 incarnation, badly.  I think it's so complex that Beane felt motivated to mention "we need to find out how intelligent they are...Brian's offense is very complex" as a key factor for WR e v a l in his post season presser.

 

And if I'm right, that's a problem, because injuries WILL happen, and places where the roster is not as good as they thought going into the season WILL happen, and we need to be able to bring in talent.

 

There's quite the list of playoff teams this year that added a player mid-season on offense to their benefit including the Ravens, Patriots, 49ers, and Seahawks.  If we aren't willing and able to do this, we are forfeiting an important competitive advantage.  The practice squad isn't big enough (and it's too restrictive in terms of experience limits) to handle all contingencies.

 

17 minutes ago, PIZ said:

I don’t think McDermott is like guys like Levy were.  Levy wanted ONLY high character guys that were also choir boys. McDermott wants guys that are talented with high character and is willing to give some guys that have had issues, a chance. 

 

The moves Beane has made shows that you are right.  Liuget and Trent Murphy had PED suspensions.  LB Maurice Alexander was dumped from his college team for a year for slugging a college teammate after a party and injuring him.  Duke Williams well known cut from his college team for breaking a teammate's jaw in a bar fight.  Nsekhe did jail time. 

 

Beane and McDermott will 100% give guys with past issue a chance, he just needs to be persuaded the past is past.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

27 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

I want the Bills to win too. But I want them to win Championships. I think the most likely way of the Bills doing that is for Allen to grow into a true franchise Quarterback. To do that we are going to have to let him throw and live with the consequences if he makes some mistakes. You don't learn to read defenses in the passing game handing it off.

 

Again - false dichotomy.  The Bills are already running plenty.  If they want Allen to learn to read defenses and throw more, tell him to run a bit less himself (7 attempts per game ave.)   He's not learning to throw if he's scampering down the field, not to mention if he waves the ball around at his waiste in a throwing grip, one handed, while he's making up his mind, the fumbles will keep coming.

 

Even if he runs the same amount, that still leaves 22 rush apg with the same balance we had this year. Just give them to a more effective player.

 

I think the factor with keeping Gore and cutting Shady had to do with mentorship.  Gore is a family man and "all business" during the season from what I hear, which is why he's endured.  I think they may have wanted Motor to have the better work ethic, not to mention the guy who doesn't carry the ball like a loaf of bread, as an example.

 

 

[Dr. Who]

28 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

I want the Bills to win too. But I want them to win Championships. I think the most likely way of the Bills doing that is for Allen to grow into a true franchise Quarterback. To do that we are going to have to let him throw and live with the consequences if he makes some mistakes. You don't learn to read defenses in the passing game handing it off.

 

On Gore specifically - I agree. I never liked that signing. I don't think Brian Daboll was pounding the table to be given Frank Gore. At times were there too many plays where we ran Gore when Singletary could have been on the field? Sure. But equally your second running back as to be a guy capable of carrying it 5 to 8 times a game. I don't believe the Bills front office gave the coaching staff that guy.

Maybe I'm wrong, and I don't want to get in the middle of a dispute between two of the best posters on this board, but I think what you're saying is the coaching staff has to be serious when they say they want fearless play and they have to convey that especially in the way they handle Allen. Allen can't play scared or feel as if he's being managed so that the priority on offense is don't make mistakes and let the defense win it for you. Naturally, being careless with the ball will hurt you big time, but Allen's swagger is part of what makes him a winner and you don't want to get in his head to the point where he is primarily afraid to make mistakes.

 

I agree with what MajorBobby said in his thread on rb. Don't think you need a veteran rb. Great that Gore may have given Singletary a pattern of behavior to follow, but I'd like to see a roomful of young, dangerous backs. 

Edited January 17, 2020 by Dr. Who

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

I think they should be focusing on developing their inexperienced QB too, and it is justly said that an inexperienced QB's best friend is a strong run game.

 

A QB who knows he can move the chains by handing it off and taking the check-down under pressure is a QB who just might be less inclined to do boneheaded things or to force throws

This has more importance than many comprehend.  A strong run game is exactly how Baltimore developed Joe Flacco.

 

Over the years I've watched so many bad teams draft a QB with a first round pick only to see them fail mostly because they didn't have a strong run game to compliment the offense. However, it works both ways too, as the Detroit Lions had Barry Sanders and no QB. Matthew Stafford has had no dominant run game to lean on.

 

It takes a defense, it takes a QB, it takes a run game, it takes special teams. Team sport!

 

Like i mentioned earlier, Aaron Rodgers is looking so much better with a strong run game this season. 13-3 with a new HC calling the plays. Continuity?

 

2019 Atlanta Falcons with QB Matt Ryan, the #5 QB in the NFL this year. #1 in passing attempts, #3 in passing yards... 29th in rush attempts, 30th in rush yards and yes their defense is 20th. Still, the Falcons 7-9 with their top 5 star QB.

 

 

@Shaw66How did that continuity thing work out for Rick Dennison? 

[Dopey]

23 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I don't think sucking on offense for every year for 3 years was part of the process.... and if it was it's a terrible processs....especially when the offense was a pretty good unit when they got here. 

 

Playoffs 2 out of 3 years is a great achievement. Context matters though. They backed into the playoffs in 2017 and had absolutely no shot to win anything that year. This year they had one of the easiest schedules in years. Give them credit for taking advantage, but the one playoff team they beat is a completely different team due to a QB change and they played like ***** to close out the year against the better teams of the league. 

So, the point of my rant was I agreed with Shaw66. They are doing exactly what they said they were going to do and it seems like people here either didn't want to hear it, or just didn't listen. 

Couple of things:

1) You don't just "back into" the playoffs.

2) You can cry about a weak schedule if you want to. That never made any sense to me. I'm sure some of the "easy" teams we beat are asking how they could lose to the "lowly" Bills. 

You are right though, context does matter. This regime took a crap organization that sucked for 20 years to the playoffs in year 1, tore it down and has turned it around. Playoffs 2 out of 3 years. Complain all you want, but I don't get this high horse attitude from some of you. We sucked before this regime took over.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, Nihilarian said:

This has more importance than many comprehend.  A strong run game is exactly how Baltimore developed Joe Flacco.

 

Heh.  I'm not sure Joe Flacco is an enticing example for folks here.

Let's try Russ Wilson, and note that probable HOF-passers like Aaron Rodgers and Drew Brees have both done better in years where their team has a strong rush game.

 

4 minutes ago, Dopey said:

So, the point of my rant was I agreed with Shaw66. They are doing exactly what they said they were going to do and it seems like people here either didn't want to hear it, or just didn't listen. 

Couple of things:

1) You don't just "back into" the playoffs.

2) You can cry about a weak schedule if you want to. That never made any sense to me. I'm sure some of the "easy" teams we beat are asking how they could lose to the "lowly" Bills. 

You are right though, context does matter. This regime took a crap organization that sucked for 20 years to the playoffs in year 1, tore it down and has turned it around. Playoffs 2 out of 3 years. Complain all you want, but I don't get this high horse attitude from some of you. We sucked before this regime took over.

 

I'm not sure we sucked is quite the descriptive - one could say that the problem was we didn't suck enough.

 

We were perpetually mired in mediocrity - never bad enough to get the high draft picks and top talent, never good enough to get to the playoffs.

[GunnerBill]

18 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Again - false dichotomy.  The Bills are already running plenty.  If they want Allen to learn to read defenses and throw more, tell him to run a bit less himself (7 attempts per game ave.)   He's not learning to throw if he's scampering down the field, not to mention if he waves the ball around at his waist in a throwing grip, one handed, while he's making up his mind, the fumbles will keep coming.

 

Even if he runs the same amount, that still leaves 22 rush apg with the same balance we had this year. Just give them to a more effective player.

 

I think the factor with keeping Gore and cutting Shady had to do with mentorship.  Gore is a family man and "all business" during the season from what I hear, which is why he's endured.  I think they may have wanted Motor to have the better work ethic, not to mention the guy who doesn't carry the ball like a loaf of bread, as an example.

 

I agree with most of that and I agree with your reasoning as to why they moved on Shady in favour of Gore. I thought it was the wrong decision then and still do.