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MAJBobby

For those that question what Andre Roberts has brought to the Bills.

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5 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:


come on now.... every ST play with him was an emotional roller coaster.  
 

when have you felt more alive than when watching a kick descending into the waiting arms of ol’ 21? 

 

One of the things I am most proud of in life is I never actually threw my beer at the TV.

 

Yes, my bar is pretty low, I’m aware. 

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I wasn't against Roberts being out there but... can we have a data sheet that shows WHO contributed.  That way we can measure what everyone contributed to their teams on top of return yards. Like does someone else use a receiver that say gets 500 yards receiving a year or a CB that is pretty decent in passing defense.  I like the fact that Roberts almost doesn't fumble but...  on kickoffs he is practically useless as he pretty much averages just beyond a touchback. 

 

How many teams employ a guy that ONLY returns kicks/punts?  If I employed that guy then I would want someone that breaks them regularly (not necessarily a TD.)  Otherwise I would rather have an average guy that catches well but also has a good contribution in another phase.

Edited by Scott7975

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1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:


yeah that Huge 1.5M investment. That is cap dust. 

The roster sport for a special teams only player is a bigger investment than the $.  

 

About 3 yards extra (over taking the ball at the 25) is the actual benefit.

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13 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I wasn't against Roberts being out there but... can we have a data sheet that shows WHO contributed.  That way we can measure what everyone contributed to their teams on top of return yards. Like does someone else use a receiver that say gets 500 yards receiving a year or a CB that is pretty decent in passing defense.  I like the fact that Roberts almost doesn't fumble but...  on kickoffs he is practically useless as he pretty much averages just beyond a touchback. 

 

How many teams employ a guy that ONLY returns kicks/punts?  If I employed that guy then I would want someone that breaks them regularly (not necessarily a TD.)  Otherwise I would rather have an average guy that catches well but also has a good contribution in another phase.

 

Often a teams best punt or kick returner is a starting CB.  Since kick-offs and punts have the HIGHEST injury rate (per play) by far, I sure don't want my starting CB back there. And Leodis? ... oh god, I think I lost months of my life watching him return.   

 

Despite what we all want, the bottom of the roster is just that.  Long shots and JAGs.  Heck yeah he contributes more than that!   

 

He has no screw-ups, and has given us top 3 starting position for the whole league.  As a receiver, he's a JAG.  But so is the bottom of the roster.  While he didn't break a long one, that's not all on him, and he's done it before.  I'm more than satisfied with his performance.  

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  Not sure if it was mentioned but the chart does not include penalties. How many of his returns did the Bills take penalties on? How often did the penalties move the Bills back inside their 25? 

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2 hours ago, Buffalo619 said:

His return does not equal the investment...

 

Are you the same dolt who comments on articles he can't read because of the Buffalo News paywall?  Again, brilliant!

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22 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

I wasn't against Roberts being out there but... can we have a data sheet that shows WHO contributed.  That way we can measure what everyone contributed to their teams on top of return yards. Like does someone else use a receiver that say gets 500 yards receiving a year or a CB that is pretty decent in passing defense.  I like the fact that Roberts almost doesn't fumble but...  on kickoffs he is practically useless as he pretty much averages just beyond a touchback. 

 

How many teams employ a guy that ONLY returns kicks/punts?  If I employed that guy then I would want someone that breaks them regularly (not necessarily a TD.)  Otherwise I would rather have an average guy that catches well but also has a good contribution in another phase.


 

Just a quick look at NFL.com looking at Kick returners and looking at their individual numbers show what you are looking for.

 

Most of the top returners are WRs (few RB and DBs) and they tend to average around 20 catches from the WR position.  Some like Tenn and Buffalo are under 10 and the Washington KR was top with 34 catches. Nothing earth shattering - very typical bottom of the WR numbers. You also have some RBs like Brandon Bolden in NE that returned Kick-offs and then basically sat on the bench with 15 rushes for the season.
 

Additionally when you add Punt returns - you immediately see several teams were forced to use a different PR from the kick off returner (like NE) and their primary PR also provided nothing on offense with 2 catches and 2 fumbles on the year.  
 

What it looks like to me is that Buffalo is the norm and is lucky to have a guy that can do both kick and punt return and he was sure handed enough not to turn the ball over. 11 punt returners in the league had 2 or more fumbles on the year and 15 Kick Returners had at least 1 fumble.  
 

So in the end you have a guy as a specialist that returns both Kicks and Punts, does not turn the ball over, and is among the top returners in yards and efficiency and the complaint is that you get nothing on offense.

 

The other thing o look at is who does it when Andre was inactive.  McKenzie is the most often used player and he averaged 5 yards less per Kick return and 4 yards less on PR. 
 

Everything points to the Bills are fine using Roberts exactly as they are right now and continuing to adjust as needed.  

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33 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

The roster sport for a special teams only player is a bigger investment than the $.  

 

About 3 yards extra (over taking the ball at the 25) is the actual benefit.


Roster spot, AS well as active on game day is much more valuable to me. 
 

also those 3 yards were on 50% of “returnable” kickoffs.
 

If they average say 10 drives per game, with their defense, say half of those drives start with receiving a kickoff.
 

so 50% of their drives there is a kickoff. 
 

of those I don’t know how many were returnable, so say they all were. 
 

of those he returned 50%.

 

so 25% of their drives started with a kickoff return. 
 

that means his maximum average contribution per drive is 25% of 3 yards. 
 

if the math is right, a wr or RB with 8 yards a game, adds more net production to the offense on average then does the kr specialist  in this case, especially given his lack of help on offense. 

 

Duke, and Yeldon, in just a few games netted the offense more offensive field position on the season. 

crazy right? 

 

Edited by Over 29 years of fanhood

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17 minutes ago, Turk71 said:

  Not sure if it was mentioned but the chart does not include penalties. How many of his returns did the Bills take penalties on? How often did the penalties move the Bills back inside their 25? 


At one point in the middle of the season the Bills were among the least penalized teams on ST in the league.  It seemed they were getting more calls late, especially Alexander, but I still think they were in the top half of the least penalized special teams units.

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The potential for extra yardage isn't his value. It's the fact that he never muffs a kick. The past couple years I held my breath on every punt return. Not anymore.

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36 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

The roster sport for a special teams only player is a bigger investment than the $.  

 

About 3 yards extra (over taking the ball at the 25) is the actual benefit.

And the security of knowing you have a player that can actually catch the punt...not fumble it....and give the other team great FP

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Most fans underrate the value of special teams and would prefer who ever that year's camp hero wide receiver is. 

 

Roberts has been an excellent value pick up. 

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7 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:


Roster spot, AS well as active on game day is much more valuable to me. 
 

also those 3 yards were on 50% of “returnable” kickoffs.
 

If they average say 10 drives per game, with their defense, say half of those drives start with receiving a kickoff.
 

so 50% of their drives there is a kickoff. 
 

of those I don’t know how many were returnable, so say they all were. 
 

of those he returned 50%.

 

so 25% of their drives started with a kickoff return. 
 

that means his maximum average contribution per drive is 25% of 3 yards. 
 

if the math is right, a wr or RB with 8 yards a game, adds more production to the offense on average then does the kr specialist. 
 

 

 

I hear that you don't value those 3 yards much as a roster spot.   I disagree.   Those yards are "free" yards.  No down required.   It's also better that almost every other team in the league!  Many of those teams are net NEGATIVE yards, not to mention net negative in fumbles.   

 

Even a "small" contribution is a contribution and he is among the best in the league at it.    I'll take it over some bottom of the roster long shot.

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I want to see Christian Wade as a core special teams player next year. IMO he has the perfect skill set to be a gunner, punt returner, and kick returner. Heck I'd even like to see him punting the ball. Punting, receiving, and tackling are all required skills of a professional rugby player.

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2 hours ago, BillsMafi$ said:

soooo the Bills averaged about 3 yards more than the 25 yard line (what a touchback gives you) on kickoff returns (so the 28 yard line)

With 1 return all year going into the opponent's territory
 

 

so I don’t really think Roberts is someone this team  really needs and we can fill the roster else where with someone else 

 

How would you use that roster spot and who would you have returning kicks instead?

4 minutes ago, Mark Long Beach said:

 

I hear that you don't value those 3 yards much as a roster spot.   I disagree.   Those yards are "free" yards.  No down required.   It's also better that almost every other team in the league!  Many of those teams are net NEGATIVE yards, not to mention net negative in fumbles.   

 

Even a "small" contribution is a contribution and he is among the best in the league at it.    I'll take it over some bottom of the roster long shot.

How many years have we had to hold our breath every return play, hoping the returner doesn't turn the ball over? It's so nice to have a guy back there who won't turn it over.

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42 minutes ago, Captain Caveman said:

The roster sport for a special teams only player is a bigger investment than the $.  

 

About 3 yards extra (over taking the ball at the 25) is the actual benefit.

 

Bobby April screwed the pooch...had WAAAAY to much say in the final 53.....injury bug hit and NONE of his guys were worth a dump at their natural positions......Jauron went body shopping at Walmart......almost hired to 78 year old door greeter....SMH.......

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Honest question.

 

Say we hold a team to 3 and out at their own 15.They punt, caught at the 50 returned to the 40, what does that do to the yards after 25? Even if he fair catches at the 50, does he still get a 25 yard credit?

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I have never understood the griping here about Roberts.  The guy is sure handed and smart.  He's the perfect punt catcher/return guy.

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19 minutes ago, MJS said:

How would you use that roster spot and who would you have returning kicks instead?

 

Anyone MJS.... anyone can return kicks. Look at the stats. Okay, they don't support my argument but still..... anyone can do it. Anyone. 

 

 

 

*check sarcasm meter before reading. 

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But did he save the squeaky puppy toys from the burning car ?

 

I didn't think so......

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53 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Are you the same dolt who comments on articles he can't read because of the Buffalo News paywall?  Again, brilliant!

Yeah. Buff News pay wall has been in affect for a few years now. 
 

Thanks for the compliment bro!!

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44 minutes ago, Mark Long Beach said:

 

I hear that you don't value those 3 yards much as a roster spot.   I disagree.   Those yards are "free" yards.  No down required.   It's also better that almost every other team in the league!  Many of those teams are net NEGATIVE yards, not to mention net negative in fumbles.   

 

Even a "small" contribution is a contribution and he is among the best in the league at it.    I'll take it over some bottom of the roster long shot.


I guess it’s better than a kick off specialist like we’ve seen in the past. 
 

I'm probably just bitter that Yeldon and Williams were not active for some offensive depth so Dimarco, and lee Smith were running go routes while Gore was running sweeps. 🤦‍♂️ 

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46 minutes ago, MJS said:

How would you use that roster spot and who would you have returning kicks instead?


those who did it collegiately or in the pros:


singletary, Poyer, Hyde, Brown, Tre’Davious, Cole Beasley, McKenzie 
 

to name a few 

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57 minutes ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:


Roster spot, AS well as active on game day is much more valuable to me. 
 

also those 3 yards were on 50% of “returnable” kickoffs.
 

If they average say 10 drives per game, with their defense, say half of those drives start with receiving a kickoff.
 

so 50% of their drives there is a kickoff. 
 

of those I don’t know how many were returnable, so say they all were. 
 

of those he returned 50%.

 

so 25% of their drives started with a kickoff return. 
 

that means his maximum average contribution per drive is 25% of 3 yards. 
 

if the math is right, a wr or RB with 8 yards a game, adds more net production to the offense on average then does the kr specialist  in this case, especially given his lack of help on offense. 

 

Duke, and Yeldon, in just a few games netted the offense more offensive field position on the season. 

crazy right? 

 


 

Not exactly.  If you had replaced Roberts with McKenzie and used their return averages (only thing we can do). Roberts on his nearly 60 combined returns accounted for 260 more yards than McKenzie would have just based upon the difference in their averages.  
 

That 260 yards is more yards than McKenzie had receiving for the season as the #3 WR on the team.  It is also more than Foster and Duke Williams had receiving combined on the season and close to what the 2 of them and Zay Jones had combined for the Bills.

 

His return yardage above replacement - would land him in 5th on the team for receiving yards as the #3 receiver.  And that is just yards over replacement not the total number of yards he produced on returns.

 

In the end you could of replaced him with McKenzie to open up a roster spot, but what would that spot have bought you.  Your KR and PR yardage drops and as McKenzie played WR 3 most of the season - you are talking about dressing another WR that would have not seen the field.

 

You increase risk and decrease Efficiency on returns for potential of having another WR that gives you less as a WR - like Foster.

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