billsfan89 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 2 hours ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: Thanks for the feedback. I work in and around some small to medium contractors and developers in my area, and understand that sort of behavior is part of the process. In fact I have heard that one of the more difficult entities to deal with is the State of NY. Notorious late player, hurry up and wait and "we'll get you your money (maybe) when we get to it. I'm not under any illusion he's a saint, but imo none of the people that run for office are anywhere close to that standard. As for his accomplishments, again, he's The President. The. Appreciate the response though! Your original point was that out of all the people Trump has worked with that no one has ever said bad things about him. That isn't true at all was my point. By the early 90's Trump had developed such a bad reputation for stiffing contractors that no one would work with him (one of the contributing factors to his bankruptcies was not getting cheap labor to do his work was done for essentially below cost.) There are numerous examples of Trump being hated and vilified for how he ran his businesses. There is also a lot of hearsay about Trump working with organized crime in the 1980's and 1990's using his casinos and other properties to launder money (which isn't shocking as that is super common in construction.) But I will say that that is just rumors but a heavily circulated one. I also think that there are degrees of things. Almost everyone to run for president since Jimmy Carter has not been an ethical person (The only exceptions to this I would say off the top of my head would be Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders say what you will about their policies but they are the only people in the Capital where lobbyists didn't bother with them.) I ask myself how bad is their corruption and are they a competent person? Dick Cheney is an insanely corrupt person but I will give him this he knows how to get things done (Mainly awful things.) Trump is neither ethical nor competent. He is haphazard and ill thought out. He reeks of corruption and someone looking to enrich his business interests. He constantly shoots himself in the foot with bad decision making and doesn't seem to have a plan on how to do anything. I don't get what people see in this guy other than he pushes Republican policies. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Tiberius Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 5 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Your original point was that out of all the people Trump has worked with that no one has ever said bad things about him. That isn't true at all was my point. By the early 90's Trump had developed such a bad reputation for stiffing contractors that no one would work with him (one of the contributing factors to his bankruptcies was not getting cheap labor to do his work was done for essentially below cost.) There are numerous examples of Trump being hated and vilified for how he ran his businesses. There is also a lot of hearsay about Trump working with organized crime in the 1980's and 1990's using his casinos and other properties to launder money (which isn't shocking as that is super common in construction.) But I will say that that is just rumors but a heavily circulated one. I also think that there are degrees of things. Almost everyone to run for president since Jimmy Carter has not been an ethical person (The only exceptions to this I would say off the top of my head would be Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders say what you will about their policies but they are the only people in the Capital where lobbyists didn't bother with them.) I ask myself how bad is their corruption and are they a competent person? Dick Cheney is an insanely corrupt person but I will give him this he knows how to get things done (Mainly awful things.) Trump is neither ethical nor competent. He is haphazard and ill thought out. He reeks of corruption and someone looking to enrich his business interests. He constantly shoots himself in the foot with bad decision making and doesn't seem to have a plan on how to do anything. I don't get what people see in this guy other than he pushes Republican policies. And no American banks would lend him money, either. That’s why he turned to corrupt Deutche Bank for money. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 8 minutes ago, Tiberius said: And no American banks would lend him money, either. That’s why he turned to corrupt Deutche Bank for money. And this impacted your life how exactly? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 2 minutes ago, SoCal Deek said: And this impacted your life how exactly? 70,000 hours of self-righteous complaining and voicing of resentment for Trump’s 8 years 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
snafu Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 1 hour ago, transplantbillsfan said: Bravo to the Donald for not pissing it all away! Especially since he's a hateful ass. That certainly boosts my opinion of his success. He's had to sail into his own wind all these years. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 Just now, snafu said: Especially since he's a hateful ass. That certainly boosts my opinion of his success. He's had to sail into his own wind all these years. five more to go Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 21 minutes ago, snafu said: Especially since he's a hateful ass. That certainly boosts my opinion of his success. He's had to sail into his own wind all these years. Trump the Grump is to blame for 3.5% unemployment and an average of $6000 more in everyone's pocket since he gained office. Bush & Obama were able to keep tax payments lower by providing more frugal increases of $400 and $1000 during their respective 8 years. I don't know what we'll do if he secures the border and we have to lay off police because MS-13 is no longer coming here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 46 minutes ago, billsfan89 said: Your original point was that out of all the people Trump has worked with that no one has ever said bad things about him. That isn't true at all was my point. By the early 90's Trump had developed such a bad reputation for stiffing contractors that no one would work with him (one of the contributing factors to his bankruptcies was not getting cheap labor to do his work was done for essentially below cost.) There are numerous examples of Trump being hated and vilified for how he ran his businesses. There is also a lot of hearsay about Trump working with organized crime in the 1980's and 1990's using his casinos and other properties to launder money (which isn't shocking as that is super common in construction.) But I will say that that is just rumors but a heavily circulated one. I also think that there are degrees of things. Almost everyone to run for president since Jimmy Carter has not been an ethical person (The only exceptions to this I would say off the top of my head would be Ron Paul and Bernie Sanders say what you will about their policies but they are the only people in the Capital where lobbyists didn't bother with them.) I ask myself how bad is their corruption and are they a competent person? Dick Cheney is an insanely corrupt person but I will give him this he knows how to get things done (Mainly awful things.) Trump is neither ethical nor competent. He is haphazard and ill thought out. He reeks of corruption and someone looking to enrich his business interests. He constantly shoots himself in the foot with bad decision making and doesn't seem to have a plan on how to do anything. I don't get what people see in this guy other than he pushes Republican policies. No sir, my original point dealt with Trump's accomplishments up to and including becoming the most powerful person in the world. I unleashed the liberal kracken when I mentioned the part about people who worked for him, thinking primarily about his inner extended circle, employees of Trump International and so on. With due respect to you and your opinions, anecdotal stories of Trump being the evil robber baron in a sea of God's creatures means little to me and moves me not at all. I don't swim in the murky waters of commerical real estate/unions/developers/contractors etc in NYC, but I'd bet you a wooden nickel that I'd think most of the business conducted has the stench of corruption about it. Same with the litigation, same with the allegations, and honestly the same with action by the govt as it relates to Trump and his business when viewed from the prism of the presidency. Hell, the state of NY has rules to f%$# over the most well-intentioned landlords and business owners on the books as we speak. I live that daily. If Bernie Sanders is your true north, have at it. In my opinion, he's a cartoon character who's about as full of crap as any politician ever was. He's the millionaire faux socialist speaking to the little people about xyz while he's living a separate life altogether. He's what happens when young idealogues rebelling against common sense meet a crazy old dude with a funny accent who can be fawningly paraded on late night TV. He's also the product of becoming a ward of the state (employment-wise) later in life and vomiting bull#### later on. I'd sooner vote for Barry Sanders than I would Bernie. As for Jimmy Carter, he was honest----honestly a disaster but no need to revisit the political landscape long since dead and buried. To summarize. Trump, no angel. Trump, untruthful. Trump, you no likely. Trump fo/mo for me. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 12 minutes ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: No sir, my original point dealt with Trump's accomplishments up to and including becoming the most powerful person in the world. I unleashed the liberal kracken when I mentioned the part about people who worked for him, thinking primarily about his inner extended circle, employees of Trump International and so on. With due respect to you and your opinions, anecdotal stories of Trump being the evil robber baron in a sea of God's creatures means little to me and moves me not at all. I don't swim in the murky waters of commerical real estate/unions/developers/contractors etc in NYC, but I'd bet you a wooden nickel that I'd think most of the business conducted has the stench of corruption about it. Same with the litigation, same with the allegations, and honestly the same with action by the govt as it relates to Trump and his business when viewed from the prism of the presidency. Hell, the state of NY has rules to f%$# over the most well-intentioned landlords and business owners on the books as we speak. I live that daily. If Bernie Sanders is your true north, have at it. In my opinion, he's a cartoon character who's about as full of crap as any politician ever was. He's the millionaire faux socialist speaking to the little people about xyz while he's living a separate life altogether. He's what happens when young idealogues rebelling against common sense meet a crazy old dude with a funny accent who can be fawningly paraded on late night TV. He's also the product of becoming a ward of the state (employment-wise) later in life and vomiting bull#### later on. I'd sooner vote for Barry Sanders than I would Bernie. As for Jimmy Carter, he was honest----honestly a disaster but no need to revisit the political landscape long since dead and buried. To summarize. Trump, no angel. Trump, untruthful. Trump, you no likely. Trump fo/mo for me. I just remembered something about Bernie's wife and a loan her college took out while she was president of it. Haven't heard much of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 11 minutes ago, 3rdnlng said: I just remembered something about Bernie's wife and a loan her college took out while she was president of it. Haven't heard much of that. I left that out because I'm certain Honest Bernz had nothing to do with his wife and allegations of fraud. I also left out the significant gift card Vermonters are offering to folks to relocate to the (Actually Really) Green Mountain state to repopulate the with new tax stakeholders. Honest Bernz is likely mortified that his beloved socialitlst republic is going all cap-cap-capitalist and just decided to start slinging the $10k to come. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TH3 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 On 10/18/2019 at 6:09 PM, Foxx said: something that has been bothering me and in the back of my mind for some time now. i am curious do you guys/gals ( @Tiberius, @Bob in Mich, @ALF, @Gary Busey, (@John Adams, @Benjamin Franklin, @BeginnersMind), @Crayola64, @ExiledInIllinois, @transplantbillsfan etc... apologies to anyone i may have missed, 'twas not intended) read the sourced materials/articles here? or do you get your information elsewhere and just assume that anything posted here is mainly partisan hogwash, so you omit it from your information gathering? if it is the latter, do you read/watch/gather sourced material that is outside of your biases? yes, yes i know that twitter is the end of the universe. however, many of them contain links to sourced material. just an honest question, i am curious. TYIA for your responses. First.....you ask the progressives a question......check your first 20 responses...who replied and in what manner? Tells you all you need to know about this place.... Secondly.....do you consider the sourced material linked by the regulars to be non partisan? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Foxx Posted October 22, 2019 Author Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 19 minutes ago, TH3 said: First.....you ask the progressives a question......check your first 20 responses...who replied and in what manner? Tells you all you need to know about this place.... Secondly.....do you consider the sourced material linked by the regulars to be non partisan? some material yes, some material no. if you know how to use discernment, they all can have a form of value. Edited October 22, 2019 by Foxx 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
billsfan89 Posted October 22, 2019 Share Posted October 22, 2019 (edited) 1 hour ago, leh-nerd skin-erd said: No sir, my original point dealt with Trump's accomplishments up to and including becoming the most powerful person in the world. I unleashed the liberal kracken when I mentioned the part about people who worked for him, thinking primarily about his inner extended circle, employees of Trump International and so on. With due respect to you and your opinions, anecdotal stories of Trump being the evil robber baron in a sea of God's creatures means little to me and moves me not at all. I don't swim in the murky waters of commerical real estate/unions/developers/contractors etc in NYC, but I'd bet you a wooden nickel that I'd think most of the business conducted has the stench of corruption about it. Same with the litigation, same with the allegations, and honestly the same with action by the govt as it relates to Trump and his business when viewed from the prism of the presidency. Hell, the state of NY has rules to f%$# over the most well-intentioned landlords and business owners on the books as we speak. I live that daily. If Bernie Sanders is your true north, have at it. In my opinion, he's a cartoon character who's about as full of crap as any politician ever was. He's the millionaire faux socialist speaking to the little people about xyz while he's living a separate life altogether. He's what happens when young idealogues rebelling against common sense meet a crazy old dude with a funny accent who can be fawningly paraded on late night TV. He's also the product of becoming a ward of the state (employment-wise) later in life and vomiting bull#### later on. I'd sooner vote for Barry Sanders than I would Bernie. As for Jimmy Carter, he was honest----honestly a disaster but no need to revisit the political landscape long since dead and buried. To summarize. Trump, no angel. Trump, untruthful. Trump, you no likely. Trump fo/mo for me. It's not just anecdotal stories of contractors getting stiffed, Trump has had numerous lawsuits from various contracts complaining about him not fulfilling his obligations, not to mention the other lawsuits about defrauding customers many of which he settled out of court on. So this isn't just rumor and innuendo that he isn't an honest or ethical businessman there is both a paper trail and the known word about him. Even a lot of people who used to be fairly high up in his inner circle have commented that he isn't an ethical business person. When Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul were both in the capital those two were the only two Congresspeople (and then Bernie became a senator) who lobbyist were told not to waste their time on. I don't think anyone is perfect (And I don't get this idea that him being a millionaire is hypocritical since he has never said no one should be successful, the only thing he has stated is that it is kind of crazy billionaires exist at the same time as massive childhood poverty and crumbling infrastructure.) But as far as someone who actually believes in an ideology and isn't swayed by big monied interest give me the guy that lobbyist hate and who is funded by small dollar donations. Hate his politics fine, I don't like Ron Paul's economic agenda at all but I can at least respect the fact that although he isn't perfect he is someone who actually believes is something. I get that you don't care that he is honest or ethical. Jimmy Carter was an honest ethical person but he wasn't good at getting stuff done. But to pretend that Trump is honest or less corrupt is just a fairytale. Edited October 22, 2019 by billsfan89 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
leh-nerd skin-erd Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 1 hour ago, billsfan89 said: It's not just anecdotal stories of contractors getting stiffed, Trump has had numerous lawsuits from various contracts complaining about him not fulfilling his obligations, not to mention the other lawsuits about defrauding customers many of which he settled out of court on. So this isn't just rumor and innuendo that he isn't an honest or ethical businessman there is both a paper trail and the known word about him. Even a lot of people who used to be fairly high up in his inner circle have commented that he isn't an ethical business person. When Bernie Sanders and Ron Paul were both in the capital those two were the only two Congresspeople (and then Bernie became a senator) who lobbyist were told not to waste their time on. I don't think anyone is perfect (And I don't get this idea that him being a millionaire is hypocritical since he has never said no one should be successful, the only thing he has stated is that it is kind of crazy billionaires exist at the same time as massive childhood poverty and crumbling infrastructure.) But as far as someone who actually believes in an ideology and isn't swayed by big monied interest give me the guy that lobbyist hate and who is funded by small dollar donations. Hate his politics fine, I don't like Ron Paul's economic agenda at all but I can at least respect the fact that although he isn't perfect he is someone who actually believes is something. I get that you don't care that he is honest or ethical. Jimmy Carter was an honest ethical person but he wasn't good at getting stuff done. But to pretend that Trump is honest or less corrupt is just a fairytale. I’m not sure what you’re looking to accomplish here. I believe that you believe what you believe. I believe that you believe that in order, Jimmy Carter is an ethical and honest person (maybe the most ethical ever), that Sanders and Paul are honest politicians. I believe you believe that it’s incumbent on me to respect the annointed because you see things the way they do. I think that’s a reflection of your inability to accept the opinions of those that hold different views. For instance, I think your assessment of Crazy Uncle Bernie and his heartwrenching assessment of billionaires equating to childhood poverty is a great campaign slogan for simple-minded people. This is just me, of course, but with $3trillion+ running through the federal tax coffers maybe Bernie should stfu and explain why he and people like him are comfortable with waste/corruption/fraud/pay for play/benefits and the like that skims the tax dollar to a tax nickel by the time it leave Washington. But yeah, Bernies going to tackle childhood poverty by, uh, billionaire stuff. That’s before I even get to his tax plan, which says a whole lot more about skinning the middle class than it does about Messrs Bezos, Gates, Buffet, Trump and those goobers from Google. Sanders is one of the biggest posers in the race. Here’s the kicker: I believe paying tax is indeed the patriotic obligation of a citizen. I would pay more than my current “fair share” if I felt it would go to good use, or be spent even remotely akin to “wisely”. As it stands, I do my part, give to charitable causes that appeal to me, and just try to keep moving in spite of, you know, the billionaires stealing food from babies in West Virginny. Anyway, Trump is bad, you no likely. I think Trump fo/mo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/18/2019 at 6:09 PM, Foxx said: something that has been bothering me and in the back of my mind for some time now. i am curious do you guys/gals ( @Tiberius, @Bob in Mich, @ALF, @Gary Busey, (@John Adams, @Benjamin Franklin, @BeginnersMind), @Crayola64, @ExiledInIllinois, @transplantbillsfan etc... apologies to anyone i may have missed, 'twas not intended) read the sourced materials/articles here? or do you get your information elsewhere and just assume that anything posted here is mainly partisan hogwash, so you omit it from your information gathering? if it is the latter, do you read/watch/gather sourced material that is outside of your biases? yes, yes i know that twitter is the end of the universe. however, many of them contain links to sourced material. just an honest question, i am curious. TYIA for your responses. sniff sniff I feel so left out 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
row_33 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 2 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: sniff sniff I feel so left out you aren't THAT far gone.... if i reply to you directly ? 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 3 hours ago, SlimShady'sGhost said: sniff sniff I feel so left out Would you feel better if I called you an idiot? 1 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 52 minutes ago, DC Tom said: Would you feel better if I called you an idiot? always LOL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 Just now, SlimShady'sGhost said: always LOL Well then I'm not going to, because if you want to be called an idiot you deserve to feel bad, because you're an idiot... ...oh, wait... Goddammit. 1 2 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted October 23, 2019 Share Posted October 23, 2019 On 10/18/2019 at 6:09 PM, Foxx said: something that has been bothering me and in the back of my mind for some time now. i am curious do you guys/gals ( @Tiberius, @Bob in Mich, @ALF, @Gary Busey, (@John Adams, @Benjamin Franklin, @BeginnersMind), @Crayola64, @ExiledInIllinois, @transplantbillsfan etc... apologies to anyone i may have missed, 'twas not intended) read the sourced materials/articles here? or do you get your information elsewhere and just assume that anything posted here is mainly partisan hogwash, so you omit it from your information gathering? if it is the latter, do you read/watch/gather sourced material that is outside of your biases? yes, yes i know that twitter is the end of the universe. however, many of them contain links to sourced material. just an honest question, i am curious. TYIA for your responses. I wasn't tagged and I believe I am considered a "drive by poster" here but in reality I lurk in all forums I participate in not just this one so this post may not mean much. I look and see (or try to) all sides of an issue. However this really isn't a great place for discussion (personal opinion). It is very very hard right wing in here. So there is not really a chance to have open and honest dialogue. Look back through the first 2 pages of responses to this question and the first page of topic listings. It is an echo chamber here so it does actually serve a purpose of challenging my (mostly) left leaning beliefs. That said anyone who uses the phrase libtard or snowflake automatically is dismissed by me. Name calling is childish and shows that they aren't actually willing to have a conversation. Reddit r/politics has the same issues on the other side. @Deranged Rhino usually tries to source his claims so I will read a lot of them even if they are dripping with right wing bias. I am okay with that as it does challenge my beliefs and shows other people's feelings and how they got there. @B-Man articles generally get skipped as they are so clearly slanted I don't really care to read them. I do that with far left articles too. I don't even browse r/politics anymore as it isn't worthwhile. After I read articles I generally will check out the source to see how credible it is. Twitter posters mostly get dismissed by me as they almost always have a clear agenda whether right or left leaning. I'm not a fan of Trump. He repeatedly violates the emoluments clause and profits from the office of president. He pulled out of the g7 at Doral (righfully) but vacations at mar a lago and recently Pence staying at his property in Ireland are poor looks at the least as they directly benefit him. His comments to 4 elected officials to go back where they came from was embarrassing to me. He isn't the devil though. I'm also not a fan of the democratic party. What they did during the last election to prop Hillary up at the expense of all other candidates (specifically Bernie) was also embarrassing. I voted 3rd party last election hoping that we could get another party on the ballot. I don't know when politics turned into sports where you can only be on one side of the aisle came from but I hate it. At the end of the day my life under a Trump presidency isn't much different than it was under Obama or Bush. I have too much in my own life to worry about to let Trump or Hillary or whoever live rent free in my head. Trump will get his 4 more years and then a dem will get 8 as has happened every cycle during my life with the exception of Bush I. I will continue to look for candidates who align with my ideas and hope they get elected. Currently Medicare for all is the topic I am most passionate about and I pay very close attention to every candidate's thoughts on it. I have done a lot of research on it and am a huge proponent of it. Any candidate that doesn't support it will not get my vote. So count at least myself as someone who tries to educate themselves about both sides and reads articles from both sides. However also count me as someone who hates the whole damn system and thinks it is a bunch of people serving their own interests jointly while sowing discord among us peasants. Enjoy this excerpt that some of you dyed in red Repubs might not like from the wiki of Donald Trump's political positions: Trump registered as a Republican in Manhattan in 1987 and since that time has changed his party affiliation five times. In 1999, Trump changed his party affiliation to the Independence Party of New York. In August 2001, Trump changed his party affiliation to Democratic. In September 2009, Trump changed his party affiliation back to the Republican Party. In December 2011, Trump changed to "no party affiliation" (independent). In April 2012, Trump again returned to the Republican Party.[3] In a 2004 interview, Trump told CNN's Wolf Blitzer: "In many cases, I probably identify more as Democrat," explaining: "It just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats than the Republicans. Now, it shouldn't be that way. But if you go back, I mean it just seems that the economy does better under the Democrats...But certainly we had some very good economies under Democrats, as well as Republicans. But we've had some pretty bad disaster under the Republicans."[4] In a July 2015 interview, Trump said that he has a broad range of political positions and that "I identify with some things as a Democrat."[3] 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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