Mayfield and Mahomes

[Hapless Bills Fan]

8 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Well we disagree strongly on Fuller then. Fuller is JAG. He is made by Deshaun Watson and his with and without Watson career numbers could not support that view any more strongly than they do. 

 

I think Allen would look better throwing to Hill and Kelce. I don't think Mahomes would look much different throwing to John Brown and Cole Beasley. 

 

You sure about that?  Both Brown and Beasley have careers being pretty much JAG.  And as you point out - last year Allen had WR who will be out of the league soon if not already.

 

I like Mahomes - I think he’s an unreal talent at QB.  But the fact is, he has been blessed with a bunch of things including:

1) a year to watch and learn behind a very good NFL vet with a very good offensive mind in his HC, who clearly put specific effort into mentoring him

2) top-notch talent in WR with Hill and at TE with Kelce.  Both can make “circus catches” with regularity

3) a talented OL with an experienced center to start him off

 

I think Mahomes laid a little bit of an egg today.  I think he’s become a bit too accustomed to being able to throw off balance and have his guys make the catch or bail him out.

 

That doesn’t mean he’s not a great QB in the making, or that Allen will be as talented a passer.  But one really can’t overlook the factors above

 

I do think Mahomes would look different throwing to Brown and Beasley without Hill to take the top off the D.

 

[BringBackOrton]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

He gave Zay Jones >90 which I consider a far greater accomplishment.

Loool they basically have to be handoffs at that point. Fair enough 

[GunnerBill]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

I agree. But equivalently, Allen would benefit greatly (as Mahomes has) from his receiving corps.

 

Any Quarterback would benefit from having a Tyreek Hill or a DeAndre Hopkins. And eventually the Bills should be trying to find a guy of that level of talent for Josh. 

 

At the moment to me Josh is in the category with Wentz and Goff. He can play and he can look really good but he needs pieces. I think Watson and Mahomes are more in the Brees and Wilson category of making it happen with whatever they have. That is where I hope for Allen to get to. 

1 minute ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You sure about that?  Both Brown and Beasley have careers being pretty much JAG.  And as you point out - last year Allen had WR who will be out of the league soon if not already.

 

I like Mahomes - I think he’s an unreal talent at QB.  But the fact is, he has been blessed with a bunch of things including:

1) a year to watch and learn behind a very good NFL vet with a very good offensive mind in his HC, who clearly put specific effort into mentoring him

2) top-notch talent in WR with Hill and at TE with Kelce.  Both can make “circus catches” with regularity

3) a talented OL with an experienced center to start him off

 

I think Mahomes laid a little bit of an egg today.  I think he’s become a bit too accustomed to being able to throw off balance and have his guys make the catch or bail him out.

 

That doesn’t mean he’s not a great QB in the making, or that Allen will be as talented a passer.  But one really can’t overlook the factors above

 

I do think Mahomes would look different throwing to Brown and Beasley without Hill to take the top off the D.

 

 

I don't think he would look much different throwing to JAGs. Indeed he didn't when that is what he was asked to do when Hill was out. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Any Quarterback would benefit from having a Tyreek Hill or a DeAndre Hopkins. And eventually the Bills should be trying to find a guy of that level of talent for Josh. 

 

At the moment to me Josh is in the category with Wentz and Goff. He can play and he can look really good but he needs pieces. I think Watson and Mahomes are more in the Brees and Wilson category of making it happen with whatever they have. That is where I hope for Allen to get to. 

Wentz yes and Goff no.

 

Goff is the worst best QB I’ve ever seen. Hard to argue with his results but I’ve never watched him and been too impressed. Kinda Alex Smith like. Wins, has good numbers but something doesn’t smell right.

[GunnerBill]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

Wentz yes and Goff no.

 

Goff is the worst best QB I’ve ever seen. Hard to argue with his results but I’ve never watched him and been too impressed. Kinda Alex Smith like. Wins, has good numbers but something doesn’t smell right.

 

Ha you have the same irrational feeling about Goff I have about Tannehill. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Ha you have the same irrational feeling about Goff I have about Tannehill. 

I think I’m overly hard on the young QB’s. Spent too many years watching Brady, Peyton, Brees, Rodgers and Rivers be surgical week in and week out. Goff misfires a 5 yard pass once and my first thought is he sucks.

[Scott7975]

1 hour ago, JoPar_v2 said:

I know Houston ran very successfully today, but claiming they did nothing but “ground and pound” and ignoring how awesome Watson was is bs. He would’ve been a LOT better today by the way if his receivers didn’t drop so many balls. This is why no one takes you seriously.

 

Watson is good but at the same time, If Allen had a passing game like that people would be calling it bad, hero ball, shouldn't have thrown that etc.  He did have 2 picks today vs 1 TD.

[GunnerBill]

Just now, Scott7975 said:

 

Watson is good but at the same time, If Allen had a passing game like that people would be calling it bad, hero ball, shouldn't have thrown that etc.  He did have 2 picks today vs 1 TD.

 

Not people who watched the game wouldn't. 

[Scott7975]

Just now, GunnerBill said:

 

Not people who watched the game wouldn't. 

 

I think some would.  There are some here that criticize him even when he doesn't deserve it.

[JoPar_v2]

1 minute ago, Scott7975 said:

 

Watson is good but at the same time, If Allen had a passing game like that people would be calling it bad, hero ball, shouldn't have thrown that etc.  He did have 2 picks today vs 1 TD.

I have to disagree. I bad pick into double coverage yes. Plus he had more than 1 TD. Watson played a great game (not amazing.)

[947]

Mahomes is the new Dan Marino. Tons of arm talent, major breakout & career year in his 2nd season, and a regular season star on a team with subpar Defense. I think his career arc will mirror Dan's.

[thenorthremembers]

Mahomes has been a product of extreme athleticism and an amazing support cast.  His ankle is messed up so the extreme athleticism is gone.  When he signs his next contract the supporting cast will be gone.  He is a good player but he also plays above the game rather than in it.  If he doesnt win a superbowl this year or next I am not sure he will.

 

Mayfield needs a new coach.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

12 minutes ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Any Quarterback would benefit from having a Tyreek Hill or a DeAndre Hopkins. And eventually the Bills should be trying to find a guy of that level of talent for Josh. 

 

At the moment to me Josh is in the category with Wentz and Goff. He can play and he can look really good but he needs pieces. I think Watson and Mahomes are more in the Brees and Wilson category of making it happen with whatever they have. That is where I hope for Allen to get to. 

 

I don't think he would look much different throwing to JAGs. Indeed he didn't when that is what he was asked to do when Hill was out. 

 

Um, when Hill was out Mahomes still had Kelce and Watkins (who has trouble staying on the field, but does have more than JAG talent)

[Scott7975]

32 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

The difference is Zay Jones standing there and watching a ball get intercepted on the sideline, and this:

 

 

 

That's the exact kind of pass I was talking about.  That exact pass could happen with Allen to Zay and it would have been a pick.  People would be screaming that Josh shouldn't have made that throw... those same people will praise the throw from Mahomes.

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Just now, thenorthremembers said:

Mahomes has been a product of extreme athleticism and an amazing support cast.  His ankle is messed up so the extreme athleticism is gone.  When he signs his next contract the supporting cast will be gone.  He is a good player but he also plays above the game rather than in it.  If he doesnt win a superbowl this year or next I am not sure he will.

 

Mayfield needs a new coach.

 

And a new OL

[Scott7975]

7 minutes ago, JoPar_v2 said:

I have to disagree. I bad pick into double coverage yes. Plus he had more than 1 TD. Watson played a great game (not amazing.)

 

I only seen the second half but yes, he did have a good game.  I still think people would roast Allen for some  of that stuff.  See above comment.

[GunnerBill]

4 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Um, when Hill was out Mahomes still had Kelce and Watkins (who has trouble staying on the field, but does have more than JAG talent)

 

Watkins hardly stayed on the field after week 1. And yes - Kelce isn't a JAG but I was talking specifically about receivers. And Mahomes used those JAG receivers. Hardmen and Robinson had monster games. He has already demonstrated to me that he doesn't need elite guys to produce. Does having elite guys help? Yes, of course. That is why everyone wants them. 

[gjv001]

2 hours ago, H2o said:

If KC had our defense they would have gone undefeated like Zerovoltz said. 

If Allen had KC's skilled players, the Bills would be undefeated.

[JoPar_v2]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

I only seen the second half but yes, he did have a good game.  I still think people would roast Allen for some  of that stuff.  See above comment.

Yeah certain people would for sure. I think the type of stuff Mahomes was trying to pull off today, rather than Watson, would get Allen killed moreso. The hero ball stuff is almost always judged retrospectively by most fans. If it works (for Mahomes, it mostly has) it’s great. When it doesn’t (for Allen, it’s been a mixed bag) the guy catches more flak. 
 

i’d rather just see Allen develop his own game and not try to emulate Watson or Mahomes. Both of the latter have shown even they are vulnerable.

[thenorthremembers]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And a new OL

Exactly.  They should have got a LT before they got another toy on offense.

[GunnerBill]

25 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

And a new OL

 

Correct. But the coach is more pressing. Because with no oline he is obsessed with calling 7 step drops. That isn't who Mayfield is or ever has been. He wasn't that guy even in college. It is some of the most mind numbingly awful play calling in my memory. 

[CincyBillsFan]

25 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

 

That's the exact kind of pass I was talking about.  That exact pass could happen with Allen to Zay and it would have been a pick.  People would be screaming that Josh shouldn't have made that throw... those same people will praise the throw from Mahomes.

 

This is so true and is the reason Zay is in Oakland. 

 

Almost every NFL game I watch I hear the announcers talk about how a receiver had to "become a defensive back on that play".  This is a MINIMUM requirement for an NFL WR. 

 

 

[NoSaint]

45 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

You sure about that?  Both Brown and Beasley have careers being pretty much JAG.  And as you point out - last year Allen had WR who will be out of the league soon if not already.

 

I like Mahomes - I think he’s an unreal talent at QB.  But the fact is, he has been blessed with a bunch of things including:

1) a year to watch and learn behind a very good NFL vet with a very good offensive mind in his HC, who clearly put specific effort into mentoring him

2) top-notch talent in WR with Hill and at TE with Kelce.  Both can make “circus catches” with regularity

3) a talented OL with an experienced center to start him off

 

I think Mahomes laid a little bit of an egg today.  I think he’s become a bit too accustomed to being able to throw off balance and have his guys make the catch or bail him out.

 

That doesn’t mean he’s not a great QB in the making, or that Allen will be as talented a passer.  But one really can’t overlook the factors above

 

I do think Mahomes would look different throwing to Brown and Beasley without Hill to take the top off the D.

 

the expectations for mahomes have gone crazy too. Nearly 300 yards 3 TD and an int would be a breakout game here and it’s getting called an egg there

[GunnerBill]

Just now, NoSaint said:

the expectations for mahomes have gone crazy too. Nearly 300 yards 3 TD and an int would be a breakout game here and it’s getting called an egg there

 

Neither Watson nor Mahomes played their best games today and yet they still both had jaw dropping throws and excellent production. I hope I am wrong and Allen can crash the party but I felt like I was watching the AFC's big Quarterback rivalry of the next decade. 

[No_Matter_What]

I can't do it from mobile but somebody could post Mahomes' game log from this season. There is huge difference in numbers between first three games and last three. He has like 56% completion rate last three games.

 

I am not saying he is bad or anything but find it interesting.

 

Mayfield stats over last 3 games are just brutal.

 

[Orlando Tim]

3 hours ago, vorpma said:

Since last year I have heard that Mayfield and Mahomes were the new Joe Montana and John Elway and Josh Allen a turnover machine! Looks like Josh is leading in the most important statistic - won loss record!! I also read constantly about the new NFL - pass crazy, showtime, arena football, scoreboards like a pinball machine.  Looks like the mighty KC offense and Andy Reid can get beat by ground and pound offense and great defense - how can this be?

Comparing Mahomes with Mayfield is dumb- Mahomes is a winner as long as hit defense does well. Mayfield seems to need an elite D.

[mannc]

2 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

I can't do it from mobile but somebody could post Mahomes' game log from this season. There is huge difference in numbers between first three games and last three. He has like 56% completion rate last three games.

 

I am not saying he is bad or anything but find it interesting.

 

Mayfield stats over last 3 games are just brutal.

 

As I said in another thread: Mahomes is really missing having a RB like Kareem Hunt.  It showed up last year in the AFCC game and it's becoming more obvious now.  They are one dimensional.   

[Matt_In_NH]

Montana and elway never ever had bad games. They ask never lost any games 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

30 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

the expectations for mahomes have gone crazy too. Nearly 300 yards 3 TD and an int would be a breakout game here and it’s getting called an egg there

 

Don’t forget the fumble lost.  3 TD 2 TO.

 

Did you watch the game?  Perhaps I haven’t watched him enough but I was frankly startled.  He threw a number of incompletions that could have been picked, and perhaps should have been, and that would have been called out as inaccurate throws and poor decisions if he were Allen.  

 

 

[CincyBillsFan]

2 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Don’t forget the fumble lost.  3 TD 2 TO.

 

Did you watch the game?  Perhaps I haven’t watched him enough but I was frankly startled.  He threw a number of incompletions that could have been picked, and perhaps should have been, and that would have been called out as inaccurate throws and poor decisions if he were Allen.  

 

 

 

As key weapons are lost and defensive coordinators adjust to how the loss of those players impact a QB like Mahomes the more he starts to look mortal.  This is a normal condition of the NFL.  Mahomes is a great QB and will bounce back. 

 

But you're right over the last couple of games Mahomes has made some throws that would have gotten Allen clobbered by certain posters. 

 

 

 

 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

28 minutes ago, No_Matter_What said:

I can't do it from mobile but somebody could post Mahomes' game log from this season. There is huge difference in numbers between first three games and last three. He has like 56% completion rate last three games.

 

I am not saying he is bad or anything but find it interesting.

 

Mayfield stats over last 3 games are just brutal.

 

 

Good call.  Mahomes 54% completion today, 56% and 57% prev. 2 games.

 

1st 3 games 76, 68, 72%.  

 

10 TD 0 INT first 3 games, 4 TD 1 INT last 3 games including today.

[GoBills808]

41 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

the expectations for mahomes have gone crazy too. Nearly 300 yards 3 TD and an int would be a breakout game here and it’s getting called an egg there

Actually if you tried to call 273 yards ‘nearly 300’ here in reference to Allen you’d get some pushback.

[fansince88]

3 hours ago, vorpma said:

Since last year I have heard that Mayfield and Mahomes were the new Joe Montana and John Elway and Josh Allen a turnover machine! Looks like Josh is leading in the most important statistic - won loss record!! I also read constantly about the new NFL - pass crazy, showtime, arena football, scoreboards like a pinball machine.  Looks like the mighty KC offense and Andy Reid can get beat by ground and pound offense and great defense - how can this be?

Where do they play?

[NoSaint]

23 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

Don’t forget the fumble lost.  3 TD 2 TO.

 

Did you watch the game?  Perhaps I haven’t watched him enough but I was frankly startled.  He threw a number of incompletions that could have been picked, and perhaps should have been, and that would have been called out as inaccurate throws and poor decisions if he were Allen.  

 

 

I haven’t seen today’s yet, but I’m comfortable standing by saying part of the issue is expectations from folks that don’t see a lot of non bills games.

 

 

The bye week is notorious.

 

in this case I’m guessing a lot of folks were expecting super human and got a normal decent young QB. In the context of that being his “bad day” and not his “good day” I think it speaks volumes to the player he is- even in a thread like this. 

 

hes got plenty to prove with longevity still but until 273, 3 TD and 1 int becomes the high water mark instead of a low water mark, he’s in pretty great shape 

[Hapless Bills Fan]

19 minutes ago, NoSaint said:

I haven’t seen today’s yet, but I’m comfortable standing by saying part of the issue is expectations from folks that don’t see a lot of non bills games.

 

 

The bye week is notorious.

 

in this case I’m guessing a lot of folks were expecting super human and got a normal decent young QB. In the context of that being his “bad day” and not his “good day” I think it speaks volumes to the player he is- even in a thread like this. 

 

hes got plenty to prove with longevity still but until 273, 3 TD and 1 int becomes the high water mark instead of a low water mark, he’s in pretty great shape 

 

Living in MO, the KC games are among the most available to us.  But I don’t think I focus on Mahomes - I have bought the ‘golden arm’ narrative completely.  and of course my attention is divided if the Bills are playing.

 

But yes, Superhuman is how he’s kind of portrayed like Mahomes up on the roof, Mayfield and Darnold on the 2nd floor, Jackson on the 1st and Allen in the basement.    I question that narrative now

38 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Actually if you tried to call 273 yards ‘nearly 300’ here in reference to Allen you’d get some pushback.

 

Likewise if you mention one INT but fail to mention the lost fumble

[Hapless Bills Fan]

2 hours ago, GunnerBill said:

 

Not people who watched the game wouldn't. 

 

You underestimate our abilities here

[Teddy KGB]

3 hours ago, prissythecat said:

At some point ,  street ball will stop working for Mahomes.  He hasn’t shown that he can operate very well just standing in the pocket .

 

Lmao.   He only threw 50 td’s last year ???

 

1 hour ago, mannc said:

As I said in another thread: Mahomes is really missing having a RB like Kareem Hunt.  It showed up last year in the AFCC game and it's becoming more obvious now.  They are one dimensional.   

 

They have two capable RB’s.   I don’t think Hunt matters here.    

[Kelly the Dog]

Mahomes should have easily had three INTs as well as his fumble today. Even the amazing play by Tyreek early should have been an INT. Mayfield did not look good again, and did have the three INTs.

[mannc]

8 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

 

 

They have two capable RB’s.   I don’t think Hunt matters here.    

Then why can’t they run?

[Hapless Bills Fan]

Mayfield says the refs are never an excuse but they were pretty bad:

 

https://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2019/10/13/baker-mayfield-officials-were-pretty-bad-today/

 

Sounds like making the refs an excuse to me!

 

Shut up, Baker