CBS Lists Top 10 Coaches, include McDermott

[LSHMEAB]

9 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

Always nice to get positive publicity, but, errors (mentioned above) & Mike Tomlin made me stop reading.  If Tomlin is the 10th best coach in the league then there is a greater shortage of good coaches vs. good QBs.

Writer must be a William & Mary Grad.

[Ol Dirty B]

9 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

Always nice to get positive publicity, but, errors (mentioned above) & Mike Tomlin made me stop reading.  If Tomlin is the 10th best coach in the league then there is a greater shortage of good coaches vs. good QBs.

 

Tomlin is a decent coach...

6 hours ago, Gugny said:

 

I have always been a big Tomlin fan.  But those problem players became problem players because of Tomlin's coaching style.  He created that monster by letting them do as they please and he lost the team.

 

When you have a HOF QB, the best WR in the game and a top 3 RB ... not competing for an AFC Championship every year is a failure, IMO.

 

I think the Tomlin ship has sailed.

 

Idk if anyone could set AB and LB to be the guys you expect out of Pittsburgh.

 

He inherited Big Ben who I believe only compounds issues.

6 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

Tomlin has been blessed with a good organization and a good QB with loads of shiny toys along the way.  Last year may have been an anomaly as the rails came off the tracks but on the flip side much of it was his doing- he lost control of his team. 

 

I don't agree with this at all. An RB held out that he had nothing to do with, and he benched AB which I think is something a person making your point would like.

 

It was a tough situation. Idk if anyone could manage it. The only way to manage is to win. If you don't, you get the crap he's getting.

[stuvian]

Tomlin should be top 5. That's a ridiculous dis

[Happy]

3 hours ago, skibum said:

The Super Bowl is a pretty big game, so I’m told, and Tomlin has won twice.

 

Tomlin won once, the 2008 Steelers beat the Cardinals.  Cowher's 2005 Steeler team beat the Seahawks.  Cowher retired in January, 2007.

[billsfan_34]

2 hours ago, Ol Dirty B said:

 

Tomlin is a decent coach...

 

Idk if anyone could set AB and LB to be the guys you expect out of Pittsburgh.

 

He inherited Big Ben who I believe only compounds issues.

 

I don't agree with this at all. An RB held out that he had nothing to do with, and he benched AB which I think is something a person making your point would like.

 

It was a tough situation. Idk if anyone could manage it. The only way to manage is to win. If you don't, you get the crap he's getting.

Very good point. 

[purple haze]

8 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

You tell that to former Patriots.

Belicheck has power in the Patriot organization that no other coach has.  He can get rid of players and they

know it will happen.  Any other coach has to deal with owners/management.  And Belichick still can't 

control everyone.  A lot of players leave for that reason.

Edited July 14, 2019 by purple haze

[purple haze]

9 hours ago, billsfan_34 said:

Have you been in a locker room before? If the answer is yes, than surely you understand the coach is accountable for discipline and keeping the peace, which Tomlin failed to do. If Tomlin allowed the Big Ben to be in charge because the GM said so, shame on him. 

Yes.  A professional locker room is not like other locker rooms though.   There are other concerns.  Could Tomlin just get rid of his problem children for continued problem causing or no?  If the answer is no, that's his biggest power.  Keeping the peace and discipline sometimes means getting rid of the problem.  That's not feasible in the NFL.  Big Ben and AB won't change.  And the organization will not let the coach cut them.  They still weren't really even trying to trade him this spring until they had absolutely no other choice. And this ain't high school or college.  Get rid of Ben there isn't another equitable option waiting to take his spot.

[purple haze]

10 hours ago, Cripple Creek said:

Difficult for me to follow your reasoning, but he laid the groundwork that allowed all of that locker room stuff to happen.  He does not, IMO, have the respect of his players so, they under-performed and imploded.

Under performed how?  They haven't been below .500 in his tenure.  They've made the playoffs 8 of 12 seasons.  They are consistently good.  They've been in two Super Bowls.  I'm not saying Tomlin is a perfect coach.  But this idea he is not a good coach is strange to the say the least.  And most of his players do respect him.  You're talking about AB and James Harrison, two malcontents.  And in Brown a player teammates criticized openly..  And who, Leveon Bell?  He had issues with management moreso than Tomlin, and yet another player teammates criticized openly.  Meanwhile Tomlin has coached hundreds of players.  

[Punching Bag]

53 minutes ago, purple haze said:

Under performed how?  They haven't been below .500 in his tenure.  They've made the playoffs 8 of 12 seasons.  They are consistently good.  They've been in two Super Bowls.  I'm not saying Tomlin is a perfect coach.  But this idea he is not a good coach is strange to the say the least.  And most of his players do respect him.  You're talking about AB and James Harrison, two malcontents.  And in Brown a player teammates criticized openly..  And who, Leveon Bell?  He had issues with management moreso than Tomlin, and yet another player teammates criticized openly.  Meanwhile Tomlin has coached hundreds of players.  

 

He has so many issues with divas he is practically dating them.

[Tsaikotic]

18 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Quickly is a relative term.  The rams making the super bowl is pretty quick.  Think McDermott is more of a plodders pace. 

I'm calling apples to oranges...mcvay took over when the team already had some good talent...sure he had to get some more but it's probably easier when you already have a top RB and franchise QB

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

While I certainly get the argument around Tomlin, but who is the glaring omission?

 

Just over half the nfl coaches have a full season.  8 teams flipped this off season.  So a top 10 list is really out of 15-17 guys.

 

you've got the Grudens, Dougie, Quinn etc. I’d Rather Tomlin.

 

Now McDermott, I believe he is a good one but that benefit of the doubt for the playoffs with a low end roster in ‘17 expires this season. Time for new results. 

 

[ProcessTruster]

The only ranking that matters in the NFL is wins and losses.   I'm all for 100 man rosters and 25 game seasons.  This offseason 6 months of media talking head ranking crap is garbage. 

[Cripple Creek]

5 hours ago, purple haze said:

Under performed how?  They haven't been below .500 in his tenure.  They've made the playoffs 8 of 12 seasons.  They are consistently good.  They've been in two Super Bowls.  I'm not saying Tomlin is a perfect coach.  But this idea he is not a good coach is strange to the say the least.  And most of his players do respect him.  You're talking about AB and James Harrison, two malcontents.  And in Brown a player teammates criticized openly..  And who, Leveon Bell?  He had issues with management moreso than Tomlin, and yet another player teammates criticized openly.  Meanwhile Tomlin has coached hundreds of players.  

They HAD the top WR. They HAD the top RB in the game. They have a borderline HOF QB.  Like the 90's Bills they have not been able to fully capitalize on that talent.  I'm supposing that many Steelers fans think that consistently good isn't good enough when you take their talent into account.  If he had the respect of the players, not just the two you mention, and he was a top 10 coach then he is under performing.  Your standards aren't high enough.  He's a rich man's Jeff Fisher.

[whatdrought]

20 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

What do you think the standard is to build a contending NFL team.  it’s not the 1970s.  Pete carrol with the Seahawks and Sean Mcvay with the rams define “quickly”  in the 2010’s.  McDermott has already missed the modern “quick” standard   Does not mean he is a bad coach.  he is just an unproven coach who is still in the “potemtial” category than in the “proven success “ category. 

 

 

 

 

 

The Seahawks went 7-9 their first two years under Carrol.... this is a stupid argument. Year three is and always will be the defining part of a rebuild.

[Mr. WEO]

15 hours ago, skibum said:

The Super Bowl is a pretty big game, so I’m told, and Tomlin has won twice.

 

He's won once.  George W. Bush was still President that season.

 

In the past 7 seasons, he has missed the playoffs 3 times and has had one Conference champ appearance where he was toyed with by Belichick.

 

And this is with a solid history of stacked offenses, and last year, a top 6 D.

 

What is Mike Tomlin really good at?

 

 

[vorpma]

23 hours ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Quickly is a relative term.  The rams making the super bowl is pretty quick.  Think McDermott is more of a plodders pace. 

I want it and I want it now or I throw a temper tantrum!

[Gigs]

McD was able to take a stripped roster led by TT to the playoffs. I think the only negative I had on him was his faith in Peterman. Peterman makes Rob Johnson look All-Pro

[eball]

6 hours ago, whatdrought said:

 

The Seahawks went 7-9 their first two years under Carrol.... this is a stupid argument. Year three is and always will be the defining part of a rebuild.

That would be a great trivia question. Everyone assumes the Seahawks were immediately great when Carroll got there. 

[eball]

1 hour ago, ScottLaw said:

They are trending in a great direction? 

 

Little premature don't you think? They went 6-10 last season. 

 

Are the Bears an anomaly as well? How bout the Eagles in 2017? 

Neither the Bears nor Eagles made waves in their QBs’ rookie seasons.

[reddogblitz]

On 7/13/2019 at 1:47 PM, formerlyofCtown said:

I think Cowher would have won several more SBs had he not retired.

 

Cowher was lucky to win the one he did.

[formerlyofCtown]

2 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Cowher was lucky to win the one he did.

Really dude?

8 division titles, 10 playoff appearances, 161-99-1, 1 Lombardi

 

With who as his QBs

Neil O'Donnel

Kordell Stewart

Tommy Maddox

Mike Tomzak

Charlie Batch

Ben Roethelesburger 3 years

Did I miss anyone?

 

Edited July 15, 2019 by formerlyofCtown

[PlayoffsPlease]

On 7/13/2019 at 2:14 PM, eball said:

You and the “you can turn it around in a year or two” crowd are just wrong. The Rams are an anomaly, and regardless, they had their QB and RB when McVay took the job. 

Listen to a guy like Pat Kirwan who says it’s only fair to give a coach and GM five year contracts if you really want to give them a chance. 

McD and Beane have this team trending in a great direction, and those of us not complaining about “tearing down the empire Whaley built” are ready to enjoy the ride. 

 

Are the Seahawks also an anomal? Do you even understand the discussion point in question is about whether or not McDermott is doing the turnaround quickly.  Key word in the discussion is quickly. 

[eball]

30 minutes ago, PlayoffsPlease said:

Are the Seahawks also an anomal? Do you even understand the discussion point in question is about whether or not McDermott is doing the turnaround quickly.  Key word in the discussion is quickly. 

 

No the key is to look at the specifics of these supposed “quick turnarounds” — what do they all have in common?  Really good QBs not in their rookie seasons.

 

Everyone is expecting a significant step forward for the Bills this year if Allen is “the guy.”

 

[Cripple Creek]

9 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

 

 

Are the Bears an anomaly as well? 

So, we're looking at one year sample sizes and making proclamations based on them?

 

Seals the deal then. McD took the Bills back to the playoffs in year one after taking over a broken franchise thanks to Rex.

[reddogblitz]

7 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Really dude?

8 division titles, 10 playoff appearances, 161-99-1, 1 Lombardi

 

With who as his QBs

Neil O'Donnel

Kordell Stewart

Tommy Maddox

Mike Tomzak

Charlie Batch

Ben Roethelesburger 3 years

Did I miss anyone?

 

 

Really dude.

 

Go back and look how he won the one he did.  He made a few good decisions but He also had the 12th man on his side wearing a striped shirt.  Didn't hurt that that Seahawks TE dropped 4 passes too, one in the EZ.  He only went to one other AND LOST.

 

So I'm not really seeing where all those other SB victories would come in.

[formerlyofCtown]

11 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Really dude.

 

Go back and look how he won the one he did.  He made a few good decisions but He also had the 12th man on his side wearing a striped shirt.  Didn't hurt that that Seahawks TE dropped 4 passes too, one in the EZ.  He only went to one other AND LOST.

 

So I'm not really seeing where all those other SB victories would come in.

Big Ben.  What im saying is he was a superior coach to Tomlin by far.

[reddogblitz]

3 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

Big Ben.  What im saying is he was a superior coach to Tomlin by far.

 

Perhaps.  Too bad he retired. Now we'll never know.

 

Their records don't seem to bear it out however.  both 1-1 in SBs.  Tomlin .644 win % to  .623 for Cowher.

[formerlyofCtown]

6 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Perhaps.  Too bad he retired. Now we'll never know.

 

Their records don't seem to bear it out however.  both 1-1 in SBs.  Tomlin .644 win % to  .623 for Cowher.

One has had Ben for their entire career huh.  You cant be that dense.  You must be a Troll.

[reddogblitz]

4 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

 You must be a Troll

 

Bill Billick was able to win one with Trent frickin' Dilfer.  Having one of the worst QBs ever didn't slow him down.

 

I have a right to my opinion no matter how dumb you think it is or is not.

 

Just because you wish it does not make it so.

 

 You must be a Troll.

Edited July 15, 2019 by reddogblitz

[LSHMEAB]

12 hours ago, eball said:

 

 

 

Everyone is expecting a significant step forward for the Bills this year if Allen is “the guy.”

 

I'm perfectly fine with that barometer. I'm NOT fine with the idea that this thing should take more than 3 years.

[formerlyofCtown]

12 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Bill Billick was able to win one with Trent frickin' Dilfer.  Having one of the worst QBs ever didn't slow him down.

 

I have a right to my opinion no matter how dumb you think it is or is not.

 

Just because you wish it does not make it so.

 

 You must be a Troll.

And what was probably the best D ever.  So nice try.

[Punching Bag]

48 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Bill Billick was able to win one with Trent frickin' Dilfer.  Having one of the worst QBs ever didn't slow him down.

 

I have a right to my opinion no matter how dumb you think it is or is not.

 

Just because you wish it does not make it so.

 

 You must be a Troll.

 

If you think Trent Dilfer is one of the worsr QBs ever, you do not watch much football.

[reddogblitz]

1 hour ago, Limeaid said:

 

If you think Trent Dilfer is one of the worsr QBs ever, you do not watch much football.

 

Coughlin won with Hostettler

Eubanks won with Joe Namath

Gibbs won with Rypien

Ditka won with a McMahon

Billick won with Dilfer 

Pedersen won with Nick Foles

 

You gotta coach the whole team, not just the QB.

 

If you don't know that, you do not watch much football.

[LSHMEAB]

Cowher was a rich man's Andy Reid who sort of lucked into his ring. If it weren't for that championship season, he'd go down as a guy who consistently won, but never got over the top. He was a very good coach, but so is/was Tomlin. I think Tomlin is entering that stage where a change of scenery may serve him well. Cowher is not a demonstrably better HC than Mike Tomlin.

[Thurman#1]

On 7/13/2019 at 10:28 PM, PlayoffsPlease said:

Quickly is a relative term.  The rams making the super bowl is pretty quick.  Think McDermott is more of a plodders pace. 

 

 

Nah, the Rams weren't quick. 

 

Their GM has been building that team for quite a while now. This'll be his eighth year there. Five years of building with results that weren't all that obvious, then he gets his franchise QB three years ago and all of a sudden things start looking better not just in terms of the roster but in terms of wins.

 

It took a long time for that Rams team to hit the tipping point.

 

 

This is an extremely consistent methodology problem people have when they talk about quick turnarounds. They ignore the years of work and losses that came before and only count the last two years, when the tipping point was actually hit. Sure, any turnaround will look quick as long as you ignore the first few years where the foundation was laid. But it's like calling an actor an overnight success after he suddenly becomes famous after eight years of waiting tables and failing auditions and taking acting classes and being thrilled when he was chosen for a Clearasil ad.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Thurman#1

[Thurman#1]

2 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

Cowher was a rich man's Andy Reid who sort of lucked into his ring. If it weren't for that championship season, he'd go down as a guy who consistently won, but never got over the top. He was a very good coach, but so is/was Tomlin. I think Tomlin is entering that stage where a change of scenery may serve him well. Cowher is not a demonstrably better HC than Mike Tomlin.

 

 

Cowher's a lot better. He brought the Steelers to AFC Championships time after time with QBs like Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox, Mike Tomczak and the gem of the group, Neil O'Donnell. The instant he managed to get a real QB the rewards were fast in coming. You won't find many to rank Tomlin with Cowher, though Tomlin seems to be a fine coach indeed.

[Thurman#1]

3 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

 

Coughlin won with Hostettler

Eubanks won with Joe Namath

Gibbs won with Rypien

Ditka won with a McMahon

Billick won with Dilfer 

Pedersen won with Nick Foles

 

You gotta coach the whole team, not just the QB.

 

If you don't know that, you do not watch much football.

 

 

Agreed that you have to coach the whole team ... but Coughlin didn't win with Hostetler. Hostetler's last year with the Giants came 12 years before Coughlin joined the G-Men. And Parcells didn't win with Hostetler either. Those Giants won with Simms/Hostetler, with Simms going 11-3 before his injury, 11-3 on a team that finished at 13-3. No Simms, no title.

 

Same with Pederson. He didn't win with Nick Foles. He won with Wentz/Foles, with Carson Wentz going 11-2 on a team that finished at 13-3. No Wentz, no title.

 

And Rypien was an absolutely sensational QB that year. Go take a look. His third and fourth years, he rounded into a guy who looked like he was on a straight shot to the Hall of Fame. Go look, in '91, the year the Skins beat the Bills in the SB, Rypien was 2nd in passer rating, 2nd in YPA, 2nd in TDs while still managing to have the highest TD:INT ratio of anyone over 250 attempts ... all in his fourth year.

 

He looked like he had a shot to become a true great ... and then he went off a cliff and nobody knew why till recently it's come out that he had a bad concussion on the heels of a bunch of others and he simply wasn't the QB he could have been. It's a very sad case, but it sure isn't a case of a coach winning without a terrific QB. Rypien was sensational that year.

 

Namath? Please, there's a backlash against the guy, partly because of how mouthy he is, and it's true that he wasn't the same after the knee injury, but he was terrific. The year they won the Super Bowl, Namath was first-team All-Pro. Not just the Pro Bowl, but first team All-Pro. Please.

 

McMahon? Fair enough. You have a point there. Same with Dilfer and one or two others such as Doug Williams and maybe Brad Johnson. But the list of QBs on Super Bowl winning teams is a list of very very very good QBs with somewhere around 10% being exceptions. And 10% isn't a model you want to build your attempt or your argument around.

Edited July 16, 2019 by Thurman#1

[C.Biscuit97]

5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Things looked better because they finally fired Fisher and hired a great offensive mind in McVay.

 

The Rams were a mess before McVay came. Much worse than the Bills. 

 

They obviously had pieces in place before he got there(as did the Bills before McDermott arrived) and he took advantage of that along with adding some pieces in the offseason including the Bills Sammy Watkins.

 

McDermott and the Bills took the opposite approach and fans are still waiting for the results.

Yup.  Personally, I wanted a guy with a better nfl resume than Daboll to guide Allen but I guess we’ll see.  But with all the qbs he took a job in their second year, they had guys with much more nfl success than Daboll guiding them.  I worry that SM could have the Chan issue where the other side of the ball cost him. 

 

And SM seems like a nice guy and probably a good guy to play for.  But top 10 right now is laughable.  They have had a negative point differential in both years,  his OC and QB managing have been questionable at best, and he has been terrible at coaching challenging.  The good news is most coaches are a dime a dozen so if Allen is a franchise guy, he will be fine because he is a good defensive coach.  But anything less than .500 this year (minus Allen getting hurt) should be considered a failure.

On 7/14/2019 at 2:22 PM, eball said:

That would be a great trivia question. Everyone assumes the Seahawks were immediately great when Carroll got there. 

And if Russel Wilson didn’t become Russell Wilson, he would have been fired too.  So it all comes back to if your qb is good enough.  If Allen is good, SM will be fine.  If not, he won’t be long for the job.

On 7/13/2019 at 9:13 AM, Cripple Creek said:

Always nice to get positive publicity, but, errors (mentioned above) & Mike Tomlin made me stop reading.  If Tomlin is the 10th best coach in the league then there is a greater shortage of good coaches vs. good QBs.

I don’t know.  I like Tomlin and thinks he gets too much blame (but that’s the job I guess).  Those 2 players (Bell and Brown and it sounds like Big Ben is a part of the problem too) are some of the most selfish players in NFl history.  And they still went in 9-7.  

 

I think the Steelers have a playoff season this year and Tomlin gets Coach if the year consideration.  

[Punching Bag]

17 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Nah, the Rams weren't quick. 

 

Their GM has been building that team for quite a while now. This'll be his eighth year there. Five years of building with results that weren't all that obvious, then he gets his franchise QB three years ago and all of a sudden things start looking better not just in terms of the roster but in terms of wins.

 

It took a long time for that Rams team to hit the tipping point.

 

Rams were case where GM knew what he was doing and won.

[LSHMEAB]

17 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

Cowher's a lot better. He brought the Steelers to AFC Championships time after time with QBs like Kordell Stewart, Tommy Maddox, Mike Tomczak and the gem of the group, Neil O'Donnell. The instant he managed to get a real QB the rewards were fast in coming. You won't find many to rank Tomlin with Cowher, though Tomlin seems to be a fine coach indeed.

He was there for a LONG time and I'm sure he had input into QB decisions. After like 20 years, he finally found one in Roethlisberger. When you coach somewhere for well over a decade, the QB issues are on YOU.

 

I don't believe he had what it took to outcoach Belichick consistently, so I'm not convinced he'd have won any more rings than Tomlin.

 

During the majority of his tenure, football's greatest dynasty didn't exist. Yet his team didn't even APPEAR in a SB until his final season. He's right on par with Tomlin, who also has his flaws. No better. No worse.

Edited July 16, 2019 by LSHMEAB