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VW82

We're building the offense around the passing attack

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21 minutes ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I dunno what "run first" means exactly, but Seasnakes and Ravens tend to break about even on rush attempts vs pass attemps, or even rush a bit more than they pass.

Seasnakes have won and played in a SB and had consistent playoff appearances 6 of last 7 seasons (looks like success might be fading though?)

Ravens won a SB what, 7 years ago? and prior to that enjoyed good success with a rush-heavy offense.

 

A number of teams would never be described as "run first" but they noticeably improve their success when they balance their passing attack with a better rushing game.  Rams, N'Orleans, and Da Bears would all be  examples.

 

It's been said that a successful rushing attack is a young QB's best friend, and I do believe it.  So I hope our plan is balance.  Somewhere between 45% - 48% rush attempts/(rush+pass) would be about right.

 

 

I'll wait to discuss a change in philosophy to becoming a passing team, when it's seen to be changed.

One can find equal evidence that we're trying to upgrade our rush game as well.

 

Exactly where I’m at. Mainly due to the QB position we haven’t had a well balanced attack in a long time. You need to be unpredictable (they used to call it ‘being multiple’ I think, always hated that term) when it’s called for and imo it all starts with an above average offensive line or super duper talent at skill positions, which as of yet we don’t have. Allen is the key, and I think he’s got the potential to overcome a lot of offensive deficiencies we may have, but how the line gels is going to be as important as the QB’s development.

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Posted (edited)

Mitch Morse and Cody Ford are both known as much better pass blockers than run blockers. If you disagree with that, you're going against the majority of scout takes and draft profiles out there for whatever that's worth. If someone wants to claim to be a Morse or Ford aficionado I'm prepared to listen and update my thinking. 

 

We paid a lot of money to Cole Beasley who is a slot receiver. Generally you're picking two of a TE, FB, or slot WR. That probably means a few less play calls involving a TE + FB, and more three WR looks.

 

We brought in Frank Gore who is a noted pass blocker at the RB position. McCoy has always been a little small for that though he was an incredible runner for years. 

 

There are a lot of signs that we're going to lean much more on the passing attack this year. I'm surprised to be getting this much push back. 

Edited by VW82

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I strongly disagree with the OP.

 

The Bills want to be able to pass more effectively, no doubt. It's difficult to do it much worse. But I really think their ideal approach is a steady running game that sets up play action passing, at least for this year.

 

Their linemen are big maulers, and they've invested some money and now a pick into the RB stable. I'm not sure what leads one to believe that the passing game is their chosen identity. That doesn't really jibe with what I've seen from this coach, and this off-season. Eventually they'd love for Allen to become an elite passer, sure. Eventually.

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23 minutes ago, VW82 said:

Mitch Morse and Cody Ford are both known as much better pass blockers than run blockers. If you disagree with that, you're going against the majority of scout takes and draft profiles out there for whatever that's worth. If someone wants to claim to be a Morse or Ford aficionado I'm prepared to listen and update my thinking.

 

Well, a couple of things.  Being known for pass blocking is not the same as being unable to or having a gap in your run blocking game.

 

Chiefs were a very pass-heavy team last year with Mahomes under center, but previous years with Smith under center they were much more run-focused.

A Morse draft report: Zierlein: Climbs to second-level blocks with good angles and timing, refusing to stay glued to his initial secure block.
Another one: STRENGTHS  An impressive run-blocker who has a high football IQ and a great motor
From TBN Blitz: " Morse fits the zone run game well. Against the Chargers last season, he can be seen using his quick feet to get reach blocks on defensive tackles to help the Chiefs gain the corner. And on outside runs and screens, both a Chiefs strength and a Bills weakness last season, Morse can be seen quickly getting to the second level. Quickness to the second level allows Morse the ability to get blocks on box safeties – he did it against the Chargers’ outstanding rookie Derwin James – before they can react and avoid. "

 

Cody Ford: Zierlein: " As a tackle, he's a developmental, high-risk/reward talent. The safer (and better?) route might be to play him as a guard where he will face less exposure in pass protection and where his size and athleticism should allow him to become a plus run-blocker fairly quickly. Strengths: Power to bulldoze down blocks and open the gap

Weaknesses: Pass sets will need additional work to make it as an NFL tackle

 

Zierlein isn't always right about a guy's floor or ceiling, but his assessments of their strengths and flaws generally have validity.

I don't claim to be an aficionado of either OLman, but I  popped up the first hits I got - no cherry pickin' - and both guys seem to get props as run blockers with some indication on Ford that he may need more work as a pass protector than as a run blocker.  So I'm not sure where the "better known as pass than run blockers" comes from.

 

 

 

 

 

 

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3 hours ago, LSHMEAB said:

How many run first teams are successful in the NFL? This is a passing league.

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing

 

https://www.google.com/amp/s/amp.businessinsider.com/nfl-playoff-bracket-picture-2018-2019-12

 

I don’t think you have thought your argument through. Considering the teams that made the playoffs last year, were extremely effective in their run games. 

 

Pats- 5th

Rams- 3rd

Chiefs- 16th

Chargers- 15th

Saints- 6th

Cowboys- 10th

Bears- 11th

Texans- 8th

Seahawks- 1st

Ravens- 2nd

 

Thats 10 of the 12 teams in the playoffs that were in the top half of the league in rushing. 

 

4 of the top 5 in the league. 

 

7 of the top 10 in the league. 

 

Yeah, running game isn’t important at all anymore. 

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I Billieve the Bills are trying to achieve balance between run and pass.  To excel in both gives Dabol a lot of opportunities to exploit.  I hope the new OL is proficient in both run and pass themes.  They appear to be big, versatile, and athletic.  I just hope it doesn't take too long for the unit to both gel and have an identity.  Bills might be a year away from being consistently competitive but I look forward to this year to watch the progression.  

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8 hours ago, TroutDog said:

To be honest, I’m not sure where you’re getting the fact that the O-line additions can’t run block. I have read, from myriad sources, the polar opposite. 

 

...agreed.....if we have a one dimensional OL only, we're in deep trouble...........

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5 minutes ago, richardb1952 said:

I Billieve the Bills are trying to achieve balance between run and pass.  To excel in both gives Dabol a lot of opportunities to exploit.  I hope the new OL is proficient in both run and pass themes.  They appear to be big, versatile, and athletic.  I just hope it doesn't take too long for the unit to both gel and have an identity.  Bills might be a year away from being consistently competitive but I look forward to this year to watch the progression.  

 

I agree completely with this post. Our offence is positioned to take whatever the defence gives them. 

 

If they stack the box, we’ll hit you deep. 

If they cover our deep threats we’ll find Beasley or the TE underneath. 

We will run and pass to keep you honest. 

We have an athletic freak at QB that must be accounted for with a LB spy. 

 

This offence has some scary potential if Allen’s trajectory continues to build off of the end of last season. 

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Posted (edited)
9 minutes ago, Forward Progress said:

 

I agree completely with this post. Our offence is positioned to take whatever the defence gives them. 

 

If they stack the box, we’ll hit you deep. 

If they cover our deep threats we’ll find Beasley or the TE underneath. 

We will run and pass to keep you honest. 

We have an athletic freak at QB that must be accounted for with a LB spy. 

 

This offence has some scary potential if Allen’s trajectory continues to build off of the end of last season. 

 

....great assessment.......at this juncture, if we are not multi-dimensional and don't have a coaching staff that can make in game adjustments, we're in trouble and forever stuck at 8-8, 7-9. 8-8 mediocrity.......................

Edited by OldTimeAFLGuy

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9 hours ago, TroutDog said:

, the polar opposite

So, you’ve read Antarctica🤔 

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We pick up a Hall of Fame running back, we have a borderline Hall of Fame running back, draft a running back early, and we don''t draft a wide receiver and we're trending towards a passing attack. Huh.

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QB is the most important position in football.  When you think you have one, you give him the tools he needs to succeed.  This is exactly what the Bills are doing for Allen.  It may seem like more effort than most teams but that is because our talent going into this season was so bad we needed to do more to hit the baseline of talent that the rest of the league is at.

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Why are fans one way or the other? Balance is nice. Chiefs had a great passing game but they didn’t make the super bowl. Not enough balance. On offense and defense you have to be adaptable. Some people need to learn the definition of that word and apply it to their lives. 

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The offense is being built to be a complete unit where we have options. They will not be strictly a passing team or strictly a running team. They are being built for balance. We have the makings of a MUCH IMPROVED offensive line. We have a deep RB group. We have a couple homerun threats in Foster and John Brown. We have guys with short area quickness in Beasley, Brown, and Foster. The TE group is largely a question mark, but we have athletic TE's and blocking TE's. They want to be able to go into games with the ability to keep a team off balance and impose their will. Their success still hinges on Allen, but he is definitely being put in a better position to succeed this year. 

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Posted (edited)
1 hour ago, Buffalo30 said:

Why are fans one way or the other? Balance is nice. Chiefs had a great passing game but they didn’t make the super bowl. Not enough balance. On offense and defense you have to be adaptable. Some people need to learn the definition of that word and apply it to their lives. 

Image result for the karate balance kid gif
Edited by HOUSE

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10 hours ago, VW82 said:

Ok, ok...but seriously, nobody wants to talk about the apparent change in philosophy to becoming a passing team? The evidence is all over the roster. We were still a run first team last year even though we didn't really have the personnel. I'll be shocked if we're a run first team this year. 

 

I think it stems from having a QB whose strength it’s the vertical game.  You gotta have an OL to effectively pass block while receivers get deep.  One of my biggest complaints early last season was about the OL.  It wasn’t just that they were bad in general and bad at pass blocking in particular, it was that the coaches quickly stuck a raw rookie QB behind it.  A raw rookie QB whose strength is the deep ball.  The defense and Allen’s athleticism carried us to those 6 wins. Without him buying time for throws and scrambling for yards after the pass pro broke down we wouldn’t have made it close to 6 wins.

 

I've said before that Allen needs to get the ball out in rhythm on his drops more.  He does, but the think I don’t mention is that he got a very raw deal last season and that he still found a way to produce.  That is highly commendable.  It was far from the learning environment he should’ve been afforded.  This season should provide a much better situation for Allen and I look forward to seeing what he can do with it. 

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8 hours ago, I am the egg man said:

 

Maybe a Princely price paid ?

Well the fact we got Allen and Edmunds without giving up too much, I'd call it a Viscounts discount. 

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Agree with other posters who say balance is key.  The run-pass balance in the NFL is part of what makes it so much harder than other levels of football.  Even the most pass-happy teams understand the value of running the football at the professional level.  

 

If you are equally good at running and passing, you make your offense much more difficult to defensively scheme against.  

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I thin play action is going to be a huge part of the offense, which means we need an effective running attack. He does have 2 world class rb behind him and plenty of depth behind shady and Gore. I think the upgraded OL is going to have a positive impact on every facet of our offense.

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13 hours ago, VW82 said:

Ok, ok...but seriously, nobody wants to talk about the apparent change in philosophy to becoming a passing team? The evidence is all over the roster. We were still a run first team last year even though we didn't really have the personnel. I'll be shocked if we're a run first team this year. 

I think if thats what you want to discuss, there were too many bullet points that people are likely to disagree with. I get that you were trying to reinforce your point but it made that point a bit lost in the clutter imo

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Welcome to what the rest of the league has been doing for the last 20 years...better late than never I guess...

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13 hours ago, VW82 said:

Ok, ok...but seriously, nobody wants to talk about the apparent change in philosophy to becoming a passing team? The evidence is all over the roster. We were still a run first team last year even though we didn't really have the personnel. I'll be shocked if we're a run first team this year. 

 

 

There is little evidence of that.

 

Ford is an absolute mauler in the run game. They grabbed an RB in the third despite already having three RBs. The first two offensive picks of the draft lean run game rather than pass game. Their running back group looks a lot better than their WR group.

 

If that would shock you, you might want to wear insulated rubber shoes and gloves, avoid standing in water, install Ground Fault Circuit Interrupters, turn off the current at the switch box, use a fiberglass ladder, avoid power lines and go inside the instant you hear thunder.

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"You need to be able to run it when they know you're going to run it and throw it when they know you're going to throw it"

- Sean McDermott

Just look at who our offensive coordinator is and where he came from. I believe the Bills want to get to the point where their offense can be that multiple from week to week, just like the Patriots. Some weeks they'll be a run-first attack. Some weeks they'll go 5-wide all game and spread the defense out. Depends on the opponent. This is the best way to have consistent offensive success in the NFL, as the Patriots have shown.

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Posted (edited)
4 minutes ago, Logic said:

"You need to be able to run it when they know you're going to run it and throw it when they know you're going to throw it"

- Sean McDermott

Just look at who our offensive coordinator is and where he came from. I believe the Bills want to get to the point where their offense can be that multiple from week to week, just like the Patriots. Some weeks they'll be a run-first attack. Some weeks they'll go 5-wide all game and spread the defense out. Depends on the opponent. This is the best way to have consistent offensive success in the NFL, as the Patriots have shown.

 

 

I would love this, though over the years it's not what the Pats have done. It certainly was what they did last year, though, and when Brady was a young QB, they were absolutely making it a priority to have a run game teams had to respect.

Edited by Thurman#1

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