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VW82

We're building the offense around the passing attack

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47 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

That quote comes across as basically out-execute your opponent, which is very Jauron-esque.  

 

I see far too much emphasis on the OC and his pedigree and not enough on the HC he works for.  Sean McDermott creates the the game plan and the OC and DC implement that.  It doesn't matter where Daboll or Frazier came from when it comes to what they want to do in a game.   

 

Nothing about McCoach screams to me that he's innovative or ready to throw the ball 35+ times each week.  Sure, the offense may throw deep now and then, but the HC is a play it safe guy who's looking at field position, ball control, and the like.  Former DCs turned HCs (cue the Belichick reference) typically tend to coach from their way of thinking and McD is no different.  Dude isn't changing his spots in year 3.  Maybe he does start the season throwing it all over the field, but the likelihood is he doesn't, and the offense remains predicated on the running game.  

 

The other factor is McD is in year 3 of his tenure.  Think he's going to become a pass happy guy with more talent? Doubt it.  He knows they need to show results and he'll go with what he knows - run the ball and get a strong defense.  

I just find it hard to take a guys opinion on offense seriously who kept trotting out Nate ***** Peterman.

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53 minutes ago, BillsVet said:

 

That quote comes across as basically out-execute your opponent, which is very Jauron-esque.  

 

I see far too much emphasis on the OC and his pedigree and not enough on the HC he works for.  Sean McDermott creates the the game plan and the OC and DC implement that.  It doesn't matter where Daboll or Frazier came from when it comes to what they want to do in a game.   

 

Nothing about McCoach screams to me that he's innovative or ready to throw the ball 35+ times each week.  Sure, the offense may throw deep now and then, but the HC is a play it safe guy who's looking at field position, ball control, and the like.  Former DCs turned HCs (cue the Belichick reference) typically tend to coach from their way of thinking and McD is no different.  Dude isn't changing his spots in year 3.  Maybe he does start the season throwing it all over the field, but the likelihood is he doesn't, and the offense remains predicated on the running game.  

 

The other factor is McD is in year 3 of his tenure.  Think he's going to become a pass happy guy with more talent? Doubt it.  He knows they need to show results and he'll go with what he knows - run the ball and get a strong defense.  

Per the bold text, what do you imagine McD’s role is in creating the offensive game plan? How do you envision his discussions with Daboll unfold on a week to week basis? 

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17 hours ago, VW82 said:

FWIW I think this is probably smart. We gave up a king's ransom to draft Allen, and even though there have been some giant red flags to date he clearly has talent.

 

There has been lots of talk about the new receiver group and how that will help, but the new Oline is really well built to pass protect (and not as much to run block). Morse and Ford, in particular, are well above average pass protectors, though perhaps not as great in the running game. Singletary adds a jolt of excitement to our RB group but the main guys are well past their prime and the overall talent level at this stage isn't something we can probably lean on.

 

There's going to be a lot of pressure on the passing game to take a big step forward this year. McBeane appear to have designed it that way. Buffalo usually builds with their run game in mind as you need to be able to get tough yards in Dec/Jan when the weather turns.

 

Was it smart to build our offense this way or should we have gone after road graders and a world class RB to pair with Allen, and take pressure off him using play action? Overall I like what we've done and I think the change in team building strategy is interesting.  

 

Edited the title so it doesn't sound so negative.

This is a myth and people should stop repeating this sort of thing.

 

 

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7 hours ago, joevan said:

We pick up a Hall of Fame running back, we have a borderline Hall of Fame running back, draft a running back early, and we don''t draft a wide receiver and we're trending towards a passing attack. Huh.

 

Smokescreen. 😉

 

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2 minutes ago, ScottLaw said:

I just find it hard to take a guys opinion on offense seriously who kept trotting out Nate ***** Peterman.

 

Love to argue with you there, but I cannot.

 

We can only hope that they simply thought there were flaws in Peterman's game in 2017 that could be corrected in the offseason and perhaps they tasked Daboll and Culley with doing just that while obviously not understanding that Peterman had traits (throwing it to the wrong jersey when under duress) that seem somewhat ingrained.

 

Nor will I ignore the poor judgment of surrounding Peterman with the kind of supporting cast they did other than they must have assumed that it was a throw away season with all the cap they shed. Beane could not come right out and say that they were not going to be as competitive as they needed to be and probably banked that our defense could at least keep games from being completely lopsided laughers while they gradually worked Allen into getting reps.

 

Also, from all reports Peterman was one of those guys who can light it up in practice only to stink it up live. The Peterman experiment in 2018 was mercifully short-lived, as Daboll must have convinced them that there was little there to salvage and it was time to wish him luck elsewhere.

 

 

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3 minutes ago, WideNine said:

 

Love to argue with you there, but I cannot.

 

We can only hope that they simply thought there were flaws in Peterman's game in 2017 that could be corrected in the offseason and perhaps they tasked Daboll and Culley with doing just that while obviously not understanding that Peterman had traits (throwing it to the wrong jersey when under duress) that seem somewhat ingrained.

 

Nor will I ignore the poor judgment of surrounding Peterman with the kind of supporting cast they did other than they must have assumed that it was a throw away season with all the cap they shed. Beane could not come right out and say that they were not going to be as competitive as they needed to be and probably banked that our defense could at least keep games from being completely lopsided laughers while they gradually worked Allen into getting reps.

 

Also, from all reports Peterman was one of those guys who can light it up in practice only to stink it up live. The Peterman experiment in 2018 was mercifully short-lived, as Daboll must have convinced them that there was little there to salvage and it was time to wish him luck elsewhere.

 

 

Well it's not just Peterman. 

 

Basically all their offensive moves have been flops which is quite alarming. 

 

KB, basically every offensive FA they signed last year, their offensive coaching hires, Zay Jones while not a bust a disappointment to this point.... thankfully Allen has looked like the best offensive decision they've made and it's their biggest decision. 

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1 hour ago, BillsVet said:

 

That quote comes across as basically out-execute your opponent, which is very Jauron-esque.  

 

I see far too much emphasis on the OC and his pedigree and not enough on the HC he works for.  Sean McDermott creates the the game plan and the OC and DC implement that.  It doesn't matter where Daboll or Frazier came from when it comes to what they want to do in a game.   

 

Nothing about McCoach screams to me that he's innovative or ready to throw the ball 35+ times each week.  Sure, the offense may throw deep now and then, but the HC is a play it safe guy who's looking at field position, ball control, and the like.  Former DCs turned HCs (cue the Belichick reference) typically tend to coach from their way of thinking and McD is no different.  Dude isn't changing his spots in year 3.  Maybe he does start the season throwing it all over the field, but the likelihood is he doesn't, and the offense remains predicated on the running game.  

 

The other factor is McD is in year 3 of his tenure.  Think he's going to become a pass happy guy with more talent? Doubt it.  He knows they need to show results and he'll go with what he knows - run the ball and get a strong defense.  


I just disagree with pretty much everything you said, especially the bolded.

McDermott has literally said that he realizes it's a passing league, and that you need to be able to pass the ball well to win consistently. He's also stated that he realizes that you need to be able to consistently score a lot of points to win. 

In my opinion, the only reason his Bills teams have had to "play it safe" and concentrate on field position and ball control is that they were vastly outmanned in terms of offensive personnel, and he knew it. When you have bad offensive personnel and great defensive personnel, the only logical thing to do is to play ball control offense, shorten the game, and hope to eke out close victories. McDermott stated specifically that he does NOT want to win games 10-7 every week. He acknowledged that that's not a sustainable way to win consistently. He knows this.

Once Josh Allen returned from injury last year and showed that he could handle an increased volume of playcalls, the playbook and the passing game began to open up. By the end of the year, Daboll was calling multiple personnel groupings and passing concepts that were taken straight from the best passing offenses in the league, like the Chiefs, Rams, and Patriots. Motions, jet sweeps, orbit actions, mesh concepts, dagger concepts, you name it. He was also employing full-on 5 WR sets and Air Raid and spread passing concepts.

Personally, I'll wait to see what the Bills offense does this year now that they have vastly improved talent at the WR and OL positions and a quarterback they believe in and who has a whole offseason and preseason of starting reps. I'm not ready to say what McDermott does or does not believe in (even though, as I said, he specifically SAID he knows you have to pass the ball well and that he DOESN'T want to win close games), because I know his gameplans have been limited by inferior personnel. 

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1 hour ago, Da webster guy said:

 

Everyone calls it a passing league but the Pats smoked the Chargers and Chiefs in the playoffs by running the ball against their pass-stacked dbacks.  In the KC game alone they had 50 run plays.   Sprinkled in some play action throws here and there, but controlled both playoff teams (and whipped us badly for 300 yards on the ground in NE) by handing off and pounding.

 

When I see guys like Dawkins and Ford on the Oline it's hard not to think we could get back to the same ground attack we had with Shady and Touchdown Mike.

 

 

Yeah. As Hapless pointed out, the really good teams GENERALLY have a balanced attack. My point was mainly direct at the OP. I feel like we've done enough to try to improve the run game. The offensive line will be BETTER and the scheme is infinitely better even if a few of the key guys graded out better in pass pro. We signed Gore and drafted a RB in the 3rd round. It's not like we neglected the run game. Fired OL coach, signed a bunch of FA OL, signed Gore/Yeldon and drafted Singletary. Not quite sure how that's putting all our eggs in one basket.

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18 hours ago, TJC34 said:

We did not give up a "Kings Ransom" to draft Allen. 

A Josh Allen being picked again at #7 by the Jags this year just shows me how much sense the Bills pick was. This impostor Josh Allen 😆 is a linebacker. Unless he becomes legendary like a LT, the impact a very good/great/elite QB can have on the whole team is so much greater!

 

I too thought at first the line was built for a pass heavy attack but later signings make it more versatile. As for using playoff teams as proof the running game matters, of course it does, a lot. But if you make the playoffs you had many wins where you ran out the clock. Other data has to be used. Some OLine are obviously better at pushing back the pile than others, and it doesn't always show as the overall best run yards.

 

 

Edited by Jerome007

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The offensive linemen and tight ends we signed and drafted are built for the run-game.

We drafted a TE who never caught a TD pass, the other one is known for his blocking...and Kroft is a run-blocking TE, who had 36 yards receiving last year.

Plus we signed a former OT who is transitioning to TE.

We didn't draft a WR, but we drafted a RB and signed two more.

This team is building to run the ball A LOT...not for the pass-game.

Any passing attack we have will be bombs or 5-yard dink-and-dunks.

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5 hours ago, ScottLaw said:

Well it's not just Peterman. 

 

Basically all their offensive moves have been flops which is quite alarming. 

 

KB, basically every offensive FA they signed last year, their offensive coaching hires, Zay Jones while not a bust a disappointment to this point.... thankfully Allen has looked like the best offensive decision they've made and it's their biggest decision. 


I wouldn't say "all", but then again, you're ScottLaw, so I'm not surprised that you would. If you're going to ding them for their failures (KB, Peterman, Vlad Ducasse, Anquan Boldin), its only fair to also give them props for their successes. That's called objectivity. And you know what ? Their offenses have been generally poor overall in season 1 and season 2. Let's just put that right out front. It still seems only fair/reasonable, though, to weigh the hits with the misses.

Dion Dawkins is a pretty good tackle. Not elite, but pretty darn good. And after they saw that Andre Holmes and KB weren't working out at WR, and that Allen functioned better with WRs who got better separation, they quickly course corrected and brought up Robert Foster and brought in Ian McKenzie. Now they've also brought in John Brown and Cole Beasley, and while the jury is still out on those two, the odds of them being "flops" seems low, since they're already proven as worthy contributors in this league. Mitch Morse looks unlikely to be a flop, too. And as you stated, Josh Allen seems so far to have been a good decision.

While this staff has made mistakes, they have also been quick to own those mistakes and fix them. Rick Dennison? Not so good, gone after one year. KB and Holmes? Not getting it done, gone and replaced with younger, speedier options. The o-line? Wasn't cutting it, so they signed 6,000 o-linemen (including the best center on the market) and drafted a 1st round caliber offensive tackle.

Robert Foster's a big one that they should get credit for, too, by the way. They basically got #1 or, at worst, #2 WR production out of a rookie UDFA receiver. They found him, acquired him, coached him up on the practice squad, and brought him up to the main roster. He was a game changer down the stretch. That's big. The ability to find that type of game breaking talent in undrafted free agency should count for something.

If you're going to bring up the bad, you should bring up the good, too. Otherwise you're just being a real ScottLaw.

Edited by Logic
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6 hours ago, yungmack said:

The running game is the heart of the Rams offense. Gurley's unavailability the last few games killed them. FWIW, I think McBeane are building a team more in the Rams mold.

 

 

his what?

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I think building the offense around the passing attack is a huge mistake. Allen's wheels are much, much better than his arm and always will be. I say run first and pass later to take advantage of his strength rather than trying to imagine that he throws accurately, which he's never done in college or the NFL.

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21 hours ago, TigerJ said:

I agree with TroutDog.  I know that some of the scouting reports on the new linemen suggest strength at pass blocking, I think there is reason to believe they will be better at run blocking than the line was last season.  I' know I'm a homer, but I think they will be a lot better at run blocking this season.  Of course, the bar was set pretty low last season.

 

The lack of an established threat at WR alone mitigates against any argument that the line's strength is pass blocking.  Tough to look good protecting the QB if the WRs can't reliably beat single coverage. 

 

That could change, obviously, with preseason and the start of the season.  But to argue it now is kind-of silly.

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21 hours ago, VW82 said:

Ok, ok...but seriously, nobody wants to talk about the apparent change in philosophy to becoming a passing team? The evidence is all over the roster. We were still a run first team last year even though we didn't really have the personnel. I'll be shocked if we're a run first team this year. 

I think that you will be shocked.  Every OL brought in is very big and powerful.  I worry a bit that they won’t be able to pass block well, but I think the emphasis will be run first.  They kept McCoy, signed Gore and Yeldon and drafted Singletary early.  That says run first to me.

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Look at the Patriots (what do they know?).  Last year they took a RB in the 1st round and they took another in the 3rd this year.  They rode the run game heavily late last year.  It is possible that it is transitioning to a balanced offense league as defenses may have over-corrected to pass heavy offenses.

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20 hours ago, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

I dunno what "run first" means exactly, but Seasnakes and Ravens tend to break about even on rush attempts vs pass attemps, or even rush a bit more than they pass.

Seasnakes have won and played in a SB and had consistent playoff appearances 6 of last 7 seasons (looks like success might be fading though?)

Ravens won a SB what, 7 years ago? and prior to that enjoyed good success with a rush-heavy offense.

 

A number of teams would never be described as "run first" but they noticeably improve their success when they balance their passing attack with a better rushing game.  Rams, N'Orleans, and Da Bears would all be  examples.

 

It's been said that a successful rushing attack is a young QB's best friend, and I do believe it.  So I hope our plan is balance.  Somewhere between 45% - 48% rush attempts/(rush+pass) would be about right.

 

 

I'll wait to discuss a change in philosophy to becoming a passing team, when it's seen to be changed.

One can find equal evidence that we're trying to upgrade our rush game as well.

i am more excited than i've been since the sb years. we have got the horses up front and with bobbie johnson, hopefully they'll jell quickly. we are loaded at rb and looking at the wr corp they built, we could have the best show on tundra.  brown / beasley,jones /duke / foster. i hope they keep 7 with mckenzie and sills making the roster. WE ARE BUILT TO SCORE!

 

add to that...knox / kroft and croom. i think sweeney becomes our next nick oleary and i don't see fisher making the cut.

 

and our defense should be giving us the chance to be on the offense a lot. i believe daboll is gonna unleash some stuff that is gonna be unstoppable!

 

edit: i know my math was off with wrs, but the first 5 and roberts are a lock so we'll have to wait and see....

Edited by billsredneck1

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22 hours ago, VW82 said:

FWIW I think this is probably smart. We gave up a king's ransom to draft Allen, and even though there have been some giant red flags to date he clearly has talent.

 

There has been lots of talk about the new receiver group and how that will help, but the new Oline is really well built to pass protect (and not as much to run block). Morse and Ford, in particular, are well above average pass protectors, though perhaps not as great in the running game. Singletary adds a jolt of excitement to our RB group but the main guys are well past their prime and the overall talent level at this stage isn't something we can probably lean on.

 

There's going to be a lot of pressure on the passing game to take a big step forward this year. McBeane appear to have designed it that way. Buffalo usually builds with their run game in mind as you need to be able to get tough yards in Dec/Jan when the weather turns.

 

Was it smart to build our offense this way or should we have gone after road graders and a world class RB to pair with Allen, and take pressure off him using play action? Overall I like what we've done and I think the change in team building strategy is interesting.  

 

Edited the title so it doesn't sound so negative.

 

I will believe it when I see it. However the OL signing (all solid pass blockers) have me hopeful that we will finally see a Modern NFL Offense in Buffalo. 

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7 hours ago, WideNine said:

 

This, and apologies for the long post.

 

We all hear it is a passing league, but a solid run game is still essential and NE put on a clinic last year that a strong run game coupled with short possession passing can still be pretty effective - added bonus of preserving Brady's 40+ year old noodle arm while keeping that other team's high-flying offense cooling their heels on the sideline too. Their defense, like ours was also good at limiting opponent TOP and creating turnovers.

 

They rushed for 1st downs an average of 131 to opponents 93, passing attempt for 1st down averages were too close to call which tells you that NE was able to possess the ball and run more rushing plays on average than their opponents. Now their average rushing plays (and this is where the contrast with the rest of the league can be seen) NE rushed 478 times while the average for the rest of the league was 367. Sony Michel was their workhorse for most of that. Passing they only attempted 574 to the league average of 605, BUT NE completed 378 to the league average of 370. So on average teams try 30 or so passes more than NE, but they have nearly 40 more fall incomplete. They were 10+ in turnover ratio. 

 

Not to be Captain Ahab tilting at whales with my NE comparisons, but it seemed fitting when folks get so enamored with high flying offenses that you look at the team that has been able to bring those teams down and learn something from that.

 

Running the ball is still effective strategy, but you have to keep the sticks moving and maintain possession of the ball (as one can see with the increased number of plays on average NE was able to run). They are efficient in the passing game having far fewer passes fall incomplete, but not in the traditional sense of having a clear #1 WR diva-type that some on this board seems so determined to find; rather the ball is spread around to guys who do not drop it with the average yards around 15 - Gordon was their guy for stretching the field but only by a bit... note White who had the most reception but averaged 8.6 yards - evidence of that short possession game that the coaches want Allen to master over time.

 

James White 87 751 8.6 42 7
Julian Edelman 74 850 11.5 36 6
Rob Gronkowski 47 682 14.5 42 3
Josh Gordon 40 720 18.0 55 3
Chris Hogan 35 532 15.2 63 3

 

All this being said I don't think there should be any specific offensive philosophy the Bills fall into, rather being proficient running and passing and tailoring game plans for the next opponent. The only guiding principal that I think they stay committed to is working strategies into the game plan to wean Allen away a bit from the "hero ball" he plays to leaning a bit more on his team mates. That means having some patience with the short high-percentage game and working the running game that did not exist last year. 

 

This does not mean that Allen will not take his deep shots, if he sees Brown or Foster singled up or uncovered he is going to use his cannon arm - as he should. His arm strength is an advantage that the Bills should not ignore. Also does not mean that Allen will not take off some times, he was pretty dangerous with his legs and gradually was learning to head for the sidelines or slide to avoid the big hits. If a defense gives up 15 yards of green in front of them, Allen is going to take off (and should) if he is confident he can get a 1st down or more.

 

More effective balance in our offense (rushes and short high-% passes) less turnovers or "3 and outs", just means it is going to be a nightmare for defensive coordinators to game plan the Bills. Of course we also need a defense that does not bend so much that teams can simply eat up the clock moving slowly down the field keeping our offense off the field (the flaw of that bend-don't-break nonsense) - statistically we have a very good defense, but teams with a good rushing attacks were able to move the sticks on us while we feasted on teams with poor offensive lines and passing attacks. I think those feasting games inflated our defensive averages and ranking enough to create some misleading assumptions. Lastly the wild card that cost us a few games where the offense and defense played tough, we need a Special Teams unit that can kick the ball, notch field goals when needed, cover to protect field position, or tilt field position a bit in our favor which was largely missing last year. 

 

A lot needs to come together this year and not just the offense, and maybe Vegas is right, but they lean on metrics so much and can be blind to teams that are on the crux of breaking out. The Bills could be that team this year and I can't wait to see what the coaching staff is able to do.

 

 

 

 

wow...good job and i think they built this roster to do exactly what you said. daboll will game plan week to week ...opponent to opponent. when we need to rely on the run we will be able to do so and against guys like greggo....bombs away.

 

fwiw, greggo may be satan when it comes to a headhunting defense, but last year he led the league in giving up the biggest chunk plays.  everything i see so far tells me these guys are planning their roster by looking at who they'll be playing. for once we have some active brain cells running this team. thank God.

 

i am expecting 10-6/11-5  ed oliver is gonna be dpoy! 

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On 5/10/2019 at 9:20 PM, VW82 said:

FWIW I think this is probably smart. We gave up a king's ransom to draft Allen, and even though there have been some giant red flags to date he clearly has talent.

 

There has been lots of talk about the new receiver group and how that will help, but the new Oline is really well built to pass protect (and not as much to run block). Morse and Ford, in particular, are well above average pass protectors, though perhaps not as great in the running game. Singletary adds a jolt of excitement to our RB group but the main guys are well past their prime and the overall talent level at this stage isn't something we can probably lean on.

 

There's going to be a lot of pressure on the passing game to take a big step forward this year. McBeane appear to have designed it that way. Buffalo usually builds with their run game in mind as you need to be able to get tough yards in Dec/Jan when the weather turns.

 

Was it smart to build our offense this way or should we have gone after road graders and a world class RB to pair with Allen, and take pressure off him using play action? Overall I like what we've done and I think the change in team building strategy is interesting.  

 

Edited the title so it doesn't sound so negative.

 

Considering the run blocker we drafted and the no WRs we drafted i would say we are building around the run game.

 

 

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