Foxx Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 10 minutes ago, Boyst62 said: Opinions vary. mileage however, does not. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 On 12/2/2018 at 10:33 AM, Teddy KGB said: Dont bring up 26 to him. When he’s not bashing Trump he’s busy trying to steal 26’s thread ideas. He’s just not got at sentences or linking things. Theodore pot calling kettle black about 26. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsidethebox Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 hour ago, Swill Merchant said: Boyst and SBF should settle this in the parking lot like men. Spearing contest? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Gugny Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 3 minutes ago, westside said: Spearing contest? 2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Swill Merchant Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 1 hour ago, westside said: Spearing contest? I was picturing something more like this. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Gal Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 3 hours ago, Boyst62 said: I sold them to Comet pizza for a gift card. That is just sick, even in jest. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 35 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said: That is just sick, even in jest. Have you had their cheese pizza? That's an expert level 9000 troll question, too @Deranged Rhino and @dev might get. 49 minutes ago, Swill Merchant said: I was picturing something more like this. You fail at gif'ing 1 hour ago, westside said: Spearing contest? The only way to settle it as men on TBD 2 hours ago, Degenerate Mike in HHDS said: Theodore pot calling kettle black about 26. 26 is better than he was but to equate 26 to Teddy is blasphemy. The holier than thou and thou shall not refute the tweet bot was annoying. But that's not the topic of the thread soooo no need to worry about him 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 6 minutes ago, Boyst62 said: 26 is better than he was but to equate 26 to Teddy is blasphemy. The holier than thou and thou shall not refute the tweet bot was annoying. But that's not the topic of the thread soooo no need to worry about him LOL, u misunderstood. I meant Theodore calling out Shady about 26 bitchin. He does it, you do it and I do it too along with a host of others. No big deal Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted December 3, 2018 Author Share Posted December 3, 2018 2 minutes ago, Degenerate Mike in HHDS said: LOL, u misunderstood. I meant Theodore calling out Shady about 26 bitchin. He does it, you do it and I do it too along with a host of others. No big deal Makes more sense. 26 has been a lot less abrasive and I am glad. He has good opinions from time to time like us all. I've tried to tone down 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Joe Miner Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 2 hours ago, Swill Merchant said: I was picturing something more like this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted December 3, 2018 Share Posted December 3, 2018 I've got my proxy----Spearchucker Jones. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 On 12/3/2018 at 11:46 AM, Degenerate Mike in HHDS said: Theodore pot calling kettle black about 26. It looks like Theodore and 26 are both on suspension. no posts but they can "like" posts. The reason I came here is because Boyst is in the Should Box doing exactly what he was crying about with this thread. You got to love a hypocrite isn't it nice how they can do it but others can't and have an agenda against the fatman? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
outsidethebox Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 19 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: It looks like Theodore and 26 are both on suspension. no posts but they can "like" posts. The reason I came here is because Boyst is in the Should Box doing exactly what he was crying about with this thread. You got to love a hypocrite isn't it nice how they can do it but others can't and have an agenda against the fatman? The Clintons? I agree, they're a bunch of hypocrites. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo_Gal Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 42 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said: It looks like Theodore and 26 are both on suspension. no posts but they can "like" posts. The reason I came here is because Boyst is in the Should Box doing exactly what he was crying about with this thread. You got to love a hypocrite isn't it nice how they can do it but others can't and have an agenda against the fatman? I was wondering why the Sabres thread wasn't being updated. They should come argue down here when they return. Lots of people argue down here. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GG Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 36 minutes ago, Buffalo_Gal said: I was wondering why the Sabres thread wasn't being updated. They should come argue down here when they return. Lots of people argue down here. There are a lot of driveby posters from there who can't handle the responses. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 4, 2019 Share Posted January 4, 2019 41 minutes ago, GG said: There are a lot of driveby posters from there who can't handle the responses. That usually happens when your opinions are so shallow and emotionally based that you don't even understand your own thoughts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted January 5, 2019 Author Share Posted January 5, 2019 11 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said: It looks like Theodore and 26 are both on suspension. no posts but they can "like" posts. The reason I came here is because Boyst is in the Should Box doing exactly what he was crying about with this thread. You got to love a hypocrite isn't it nice how they can do it but others can't and have an agenda against the fatman? there was civil discussion with actual insight, thought and logic being displayed. not a meaningless tweet which you cannot explain or break down in your own words beyond #orangemanbad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Taro T Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 13 hours ago, ShadyBillsFan said: It looks like Theodore and 26 are both on suspension. no posts but they can "like" posts. The reason I came here is because Boyst is in the Should Box doing exactly what he was crying about with this thread. You got to love a hypocrite isn't it nice how they can do it but others can't and have an agenda against the fatman? 26 got a time out? WTF did he do? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 5, 2019 Share Posted January 5, 2019 19 hours ago, Taro T said: 26 got a time out? WTF did he do? Posted a link to a tweet that threatened someone? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Rob's House Posted January 6, 2019 Share Posted January 6, 2019 20 hours ago, Taro T said: 26 got a time out? WTF did he do? Arguing with the oversensitive one will do it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Hapless Bills Fan Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 On 1/4/2019 at 10:08 PM, Taro T said: 26 got a time out? WTF did he do? ‘No timeout Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
whatdrought Posted January 8, 2019 Share Posted January 8, 2019 If 26 is on timeout, can we really be sure that the bills haven’t traded for Antonio Brown and Julio Jones? Good thing we still have Rhino to keep political pipelines flowing. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 (edited) I never really venture over to the Shout Box but I looked this morning to see what the conversation was like following the address. Holy *****. It is like an NPC PPP. Just a lot of Fox News insults and a ton of TDS. It's truly amazing how much Trump has melted the brains of otherwise intelligent and reasonable people. Edited January 9, 2019 by LBSeeBallLBGetBall 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted January 9, 2019 Author Share Posted January 9, 2019 17 minutes ago, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said: I never really venture over to the Shout Box but I looked this morning to see what the conversation was like following the address. Holy *****. It is like an NPC PPP. Just a lot of Fox News insults and a ton of TDS. It's truly amazing how much Trump has melted the brains of otherwise intelligent and reasonable people. What's funny is most people don't watch Fox news and get accused of it. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 2 minutes ago, Boyst62 said: What's funny is most people don't watch Fox news and get accused of it. Exactly. It's the same way they just call someone a bigot when they have a difference in opinion. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 9, 2019 Share Posted January 9, 2019 25 minutes ago, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said: Exactly. It's the same way they just call someone a bigot when they have a difference in opinion. Because the progressive left has no ideas they can debate or discuss, only emotions. Thus everyone not in lockstep with them MUST be viewed as evil, otherwise their whole world view falls apart. 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy KGB Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/9/2019 at 10:43 AM, LBSeeBallLBGetBall said: I never really venture over to the Shout Box but I looked this morning to see what the conversation was like following the address. Holy *****. It is like an NPC PPP. Just a lot of Fox News insults and a ton of TDS. It's truly amazing how much Trump has melted the brains of otherwise intelligent and reasonable people. He’s in the box talking about Trump forcing slave labor now. It really is amazing how many adults are actually parrots. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Nanker Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 On 1/7/2019 at 8:26 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said: ‘No timeout So, busy registering and posting at a Pats*** board perhaps? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Teddy KGB Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 8 minutes ago, Nanker said: So, busy registering and posting at a Pats*** board perhaps? Josh Rosen fanboy.com i’d Guess 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LB3 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 26 minutes ago, Teddy KGB said: He’s in the box talking about Trump forcing slave labor now. It really is amazing how many adults are actually parrots. It's really nuts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said: He’s in the box talking about Trump forcing slave labor now. It really is amazing how many adults are actually parrots. That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. The major reason for the shutdown is the President's drive to end modern human slavery and child sex trafficking along our southern border. Our border with Mexico is one of the global hubs of human trafficking, and the people being trafficked are the most vulnerable and fragile sort. They are isolated, don't speak the language, are separated from their family networks by thousands of miles, and are in poverty. They have no almost no advocates, and scant few chances for salvation. The President is standing tall for the smallest among us, working to deliver them from slavery; he is not, himself, a slaver. Edited January 16, 2019 by TakeYouToTasker 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
3rdnlng Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 hours ago, Teddy KGB said: He’s in the box talking about Trump forcing slave labor now. It really is amazing how many adults are actually parrots. Trump bad. Trump bad. Trump bad. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 4 hours ago, TakeYouToTasker said: That would be hilarious if it wasn't so sad. The major reason for the shutdown is the President's drive to end modern human slavery and child sex trafficking along our southern border. Our border with Mexico is one of the global hubs of human trafficking, and the people being trafficked are the most vulnerable and fragile sort. They are isolated, don't speak the language, are separated from their family networks by thousands of miles, and are in poverty. They have no almost no advocates, and scant few chances for salvation. The President is standing tall for the smallest among us, working to deliver them from slavery; he is not, himself, a slaver. Wow this is an incredible spin on the current events. It would be admirable if even part of this was true. Couple of questions though: 1. If our border is one of the "global hubs of human trafficking" doesn't that mean that the issue is America? If we are the hub that means there is demand here for this. Shouldn't we work on stopping that? Perhaps finding the individuals who do this? Or why they feel so safe operating in America? 2. When it comes to gun control I keep hearing that making guns illegal won't do anything because criminals will still get their hands on guns (I agree with this thought process). Why then, would building a wall do anything? Won't the criminals still find a way around it? 3. A wall really? I have to imagine if, as you say, this is all being done purely to stop human trafficking, that they are using many means of transport. Container ships, airplanes, etc... all won't be affected by a wall. It is 2019 what the hell is a wall going to do? You can dig under a wall, climb over a wall, or go to where the wall stops. Unless we are going to put a wall around the entire border it makes no sense (even that idea wouldn't work). On a side note, doesn't this strike anyone as a temper tantrum? Not getting his way so he shuts down the government. I don't care to call Trump names, I get people who think the office should be respected regardless of who is in there, I don't pretend to have all the answers but your spin above strikes me. Is there anything he has done that you disagree with? People here like to pretend that PPP is all about the truth and you guys are smarter than every one else but reading through these threads it appears that anything left/progressive/dem is wrong and anything right/conservative/republican is right. I would think that you guys would not blindly follow everything repub but I haven't found something yet that you as an echo chamber (yes that is what is happening here) disagree with. I would love to have my mind changed on that so if there are examples that I missed I'm all ears. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 14 minutes ago, section122 said: Wow this is an incredible spin on the current events. It would be admirable if even part of this was true. Couple of questions though: It is very true. Sadly. 15 minutes ago, section122 said: 1. If our border is one of the "global hubs of human trafficking" doesn't that mean that the issue is America? If we are the hub that means there is demand here for this. Shouldn't we work on stopping that? Perhaps finding the individuals who do this? Or why they feel so safe operating in America? America, and certain segments of its political and elite class are driving the demand for this. That also answers the question as to why they feel so safe operating in America. They control the wheels of power and the media, and have hid their predilections in plain sight. 16 minutes ago, section122 said: 2. When it comes to gun control I keep hearing that making guns illegal won't do anything because criminals will still get their hands on guns (I agree with this thought process). Why then, would building a wall do anything? Won't the criminals still find a way around it? The purpose of the wall is to drive the criminals towards other areas to cross. Ones that are better covered with less urban sprawl wherein the criminals can hide. 17 minutes ago, section122 said: 3. A wall really? I have to imagine if, as you say, this is all being done purely to stop human trafficking, that they are using many means of transport. Container ships, airplanes, etc... all won't be affected by a wall. It is 2019 what the hell is a wall going to do? You can dig under a wall, climb over a wall, or go to where the wall stops. Unless we are going to put a wall around the entire border it makes no sense (even that idea wouldn't work). Talk to the border patrol, DHS, and ICE agents who do the work and to a man they'll tell you a wall is a needed component for stopping the scourge of human trafficking and smuggling. Yes, there are other ways they enter the country, but the overwhelming majority comes through the southern border. There are areas these agents refer to as "Smuggler's alley" and "trail of tears" where they know traffickers bring their victims through... and wouldn't you know it's in areas where there are no walls and which are also well outside the reasonable response time for CBP to reach them before they disappear into the wild. A wall isn't the only thing being asked for. A wall alone won't solve the issue, no one is claiming otherwise. But a wall offers permanence to the problem which additional funding and technology does not. Additional funding can always be drawn back with the next administration or the next budget crisis. A wall cannot. That's a huge part of this equation. 20 minutes ago, section122 said: On a side note, doesn't this strike anyone as a temper tantrum? Only to those who haven't paid close enough attention to what's actual at issue here. Are there politics at play on the right? You betcha. But there's also a desire to fix a very real and systemic problem - which the political and elite classes have benefited from in various forms for decades. On the left, the drive is purely political. Their aim is to stop Trump from achieving a political victory, nothing more. Even if it means keeping the border porous ... especially if it means that. The question you should be asking is why. 22 minutes ago, section122 said: Is there anything he has done that you disagree with? People here like to pretend that PPP is all about the truth and you guys are smarter than every one else but reading through these threads it appears that anything left/progressive/dem is wrong and anything right/conservative/republican is right. I would think that you guys would not blindly follow everything repub but I haven't found something yet that you as an echo chamber (yes that is what is happening here) disagree with. I would love to have my mind changed on that so if there are examples that I missed I'm all ears. You have to read more then. Spend more time in the threads going back. There are plenty of people here who disagreed loudly with Trump/the right/et al many, many times. 1 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TakeYouToTasker Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 (edited) 48 minutes ago, section122 said: Wow this is an incredible spin on the current events. It would be admirable if even part of this was true. No, this is what is actually happening on the border. I've addressed this here many times before, and you'd know that if you were anything other than a drive by poster. I encourage you to stick around and learn something. On that note, yes, it's very admirable. I'll elaborate as I respond. Quote Couple of questions though: 1. If our border is one of the "global hubs of human trafficking" doesn't that mean that the issue is America? If we are the hub that means there is demand here for this. Shouldn't we work on stopping that? Perhaps finding the individuals who do this? Or why they feel so safe operating in America? This issue is with our immigration policy, our border situation, and the various laws which have created an environment in which predators and sociopaths can prey on the weak and enrich themselves in the process. Human trafficking is a multi-billion dollar annual industry, and like all other industries it has powerful industry leaders which lobby for their interests within the governments of nations in which they operate. Money is funneled into off-shore accounts (this is the importance of revelations like The Panama Papers) for those reaping financial rewards, while some other politicians are directly complicit in participation in activities related to human trafficking and child sex slavery themselves. In addition, the powerful have actively sought under-prosecution, and non-investigation of crimes related to human trafficking and child sex-slavery as anything but would begin to tug at the strings which unravel their web. To those ends, yes, "America" is absolutely complicit; but things are changing. Since the advent of the Trump Presidency an unprecedented amount of work has gone into the breaking up and prosecution of human trafficking, child sex slavery, and pedophilia rings. Thousands and thousands of arrests are taking place, including high profile cases. People who had prior been protected by the system, and it's growing daily. There are thousands of sealed indictments teed up. Quote 2. When it comes to gun control I keep hearing that making guns illegal won't do anything because criminals will still get their hands on guns (I agree with this thought process). Why then, would building a wall do anything? Won't the criminals still find a way around it? This isn't a very good example, as a) there is not Constitutionally protected right to own slaves or ***** children, and b) building a wall is only part of the solution. The wall only addresses major human trafficking corridors in the US, which are difficult to patrol, by forcing the slavers towards ports of entry and areas which are easier to patrol. The wall is a tool not a panacea. And yes, not all human trafficking will be ended with it's implementation, but it will be a big step in breaking up the industry, and will be a massive step towards human freedom. Quote 3. A wall really? I have to imagine if, as you say, this is all being done purely to stop human trafficking, that they are using many means of transport. Container ships, airplanes, etc... all won't be affected by a wall. It is 2019 what the hell is a wall going to do? You can dig under a wall, climb over a wall, or go to where the wall stops. Unless we are going to put a wall around the entire border it makes no sense (even that idea wouldn't work). Because of the logistics of human smuggling, the easiest way to get them into the country is through our largely unprotected border with a third world country. It is far more difficult to bring them in through designated ports of entry which have security check points. Again, the wall is not a panacea, but rather is a tool, and only part of the solution. As to the nature of the trafficking situation on the border: First, two articles, one from a left leaning site, one from a right leaning site: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ana-davila/drug-cartels-where-human-trafficking-and-human-smuggling-meet-today_b_7588408.html https://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/02/the-trafficking-of-children-at-the-mexican-border-001504697.html Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Mexico Various government and international organizations: https://ncfy.acf.hhs.gov/library/2011/human-trafficking-sex-tourism-and-child-exploitation-southern-border https://www.unicefusa.org/mission/protect/trafficking http://www.ecpat.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Factsheet_Mexico.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/human-trafficking The situation at our southern border is entirely bound to this. Quote On a side note, doesn't this strike anyone as a temper tantrum? Not getting his way so he shuts down the government. I don't care to call Trump names, I get people who think the office should be respected regardless of who is in there, I don't pretend to have all the answers but your spin above strikes me. Is there anything he has done that you disagree with? People here like to pretend that PPP is all about the truth and you guys are smarter than every one else but reading through these threads it appears that anything left/progressive/dem is wrong and anything right/conservative/republican is right. I would think that you guys would not blindly follow everything repub but I haven't found something yet that you as an echo chamber (yes that is what is happening here) disagree with. I would love to have my mind changed on that so if there are examples that I missed I'm all ears. Final point: The President did not shut down the government. The President is trying to negotiate with Congressional Democrats, nearly all of which, within the last 5-10 year window had argued that we need a wall on the southern border. He has offered concession on many points that Democrats wish to see movement on, and he wants wall funding in exchange. That's how deal brokering and compromise work. The President get some of what he wants, the Democrats get some of what they want, and they both capitulate to the other on various points to get a deal done. Democrats have drawn a line in the sand, and have said that they will get all of what they want, and that the President should agree to CR funding after which they can negotiate. The Democrats have proven that they will not operate in good faith, and the President has no reason to give up the leverage he has in hand to bring them to the table. In the process, he's forcing the Democrats to take untenable political stands on issues that matter to the American people; and they will lose this fight, and lose it badly. Edited January 16, 2019 by TakeYouToTasker 3 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 2 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: No, this is what is actually happening on the border. I've addressed this here many times before, and you'd know that if you were anything other than a drive by poster. I encourage you to stick around and learn something. .... Excellent post. (trimmed for space) 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: It is very true. Sadly. America, and certain segments of its political and elite class are driving the demand for this. That also answers the question as to why they feel so safe operating in America. They control the wheels of power and the media, and have hid their predilections in plain sight. If the political and elite class are driving this as you say, then are we to believe that Trump is standing up against the elite class that he has spent his entire life in? He isn't someone who made it big, he started rich, has been rich his entire life, and never known a day to day struggle. Why would he, after being rewarded with the top job, turn his back on the elite class he belongs to? The purpose of the wall is to drive the criminals towards other areas to cross. Ones that are better covered with less urban sprawl wherein the criminals can hide. Between the ocean and air I just don't see this as an actual solution to the issue at hand. Wouldn't a wall just force them to be more inventive in their strategies? El Chapo breakout is a good example, the many mines under the border for smuggling drugs, etc. I get that there are expanses where it might be easier to cross but I don't think a wall stops anything. Talk to the border patrol, DHS, and ICE agents who do the work and to a man they'll tell you a wall is a needed component for stopping the scourge of human trafficking and smuggling. Yes, there are other ways they enter the country, but the overwhelming majority comes through the southern border. There are areas these agents refer to as "Smuggler's alley" and "trail of tears" where they know traffickers bring their victims through... and wouldn't you know it's in areas where there are no walls and which are also well outside the reasonable response time for CBP to reach them before they disappear into the wild. I have a couple of friends that are border patrol agents. They think it is a joke. Many of my sentiments are from listening to them talk. If people want to break the law they will find ways to do so. For your issue they think increasing patrols, adding man power, and increased budgeting for gear would be better expenditures than a wall. They are stationed in Arizona on the border. They do have coworkers that support the wall but in their words those guys just want to sit in guard towers and get paid. 4 minutes ago, Deranged Rhino said: A wall isn't the only thing being asked for. A wall alone won't solve the issue, no one is claiming otherwise. But a wall offers permanence to the problem which additional funding and technology does not. Additional funding can always be drawn back with the next administration or the next budget crisis. A wall cannot. What could we do with 5.7 billion dollars though? I hate that the idea of medicare for all which has an actual concrete benefit to all Americans is a waste of money but a wall isn't. Is a wall limiting government expenditure which is the conservative rallying cry? That's a huge part of this equation. Only to those who haven't paid close enough attention to what's actual at issue here. Are there politics at play on the right? You betcha. But there's also a desire to fix a very real and systemic problem - which the political and elite classes have benefited from in various forms for decades. On the left, the drive is purely political. Their aim is to stop Trump from achieving a political victory, nothing more. Even if it means keeping the border porous ... especially if it means that. The question you should be asking is why. My issue here is that it is all purely political imo. Trump promised a wall and it will be hugely damaging to him not to get it. I don't see the right as having some sort of altruistic existence. I watched them do the same obstructionism during Obama's tenure as I am watching the left do to Trump right now. I will agree that the elite classes drive politics but I disagree that one side is free from that control. They both are slaves to their donors. Hilariously or sadly the donors are oftentimes the same and contributing to both parties. Both sides are dirty, the media is in their pocket, and the middle/lower classes suffer. You have to read more then. Spend more time in the threads going back. There are plenty of people here who disagreed loudly with Trump/the right/et al many, many times. I appreciate the answer I was sure I was just going to be shouted down lol. Sorry to respond the way I did but I'm not great with the quote boxes so I had to put my answers in a different color. I used red because no other color showed well not because I'm angry lol. 4 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
section122 Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 6 minutes ago, TakeYouToTasker said: No, this is what is actually happening on the border. I've addressed this here many times before, and you'd know that if you were anything other than a drive by poster. I encourage you to stick around and learn something. On that note, yes, it's very admirable. I'll elaborate as I respond. This issue is with our immigration policy, our border situation, and the various laws which have created an environment in which predators and sociopaths can prey on the weak and enrich themselves in the process. Human trafficking is a multi-billion dollar annual industry, and like all other industries it has powerful industry leaders which lobby for their interests within the governments of nations in which they operate. Money is funneled into off-shore accounts (this is the importance of revelations like The Panama Papers) for those reaping financial rewards, while some other politicians are directly complicit in participation in activities related to human trafficking and child sex slavery themselves. In addition, the powerful have actively sought under-prosecution, and non-investigation of crimes related to human trafficking and child sex-slavery as anything but would begin to tug at the strings which unravel their web. To those ends, yes, "America" is absolutely complicit; but things are changing. Since the advent of the Trump Presidency an unprecedented amount of work has gone into the breaking up and prosecution of human trafficking, child sex slavery, and pedophilia rings. Thousands and thousands of arrests are taking place, including high profile cases. People who had prior been protected by the system, and it's growing daily. There are thousands of sealed indictments teed up. This isn't a very good example, as a) there is not Constitutionally protected right to own slaves or ***** children, and b) building a wall is only part of the solution. The wall only addresses major human trafficking corridors in the US, which are difficult to patrol, by forcing the slavers towards ports of entry and areas which are easier to patrol. The wall is a tool not a panacea. And yes, not all human trafficking will be ended with it's implementation, but it will be a big step in breaking up the industry, and will be a massive step towards human freedom. Because of the logistics of human smuggling, the easiest way to get them into the country is through our largely unprotected border with a third world country. It is far more difficult to bring them in through designated ports of entry which have security check points. Again, the wall is not a panacea, but rather is a tool, and only part of the solution. As to the nature of the trafficking situation on the border: First, two articles, one from a left leaning site, one from a right leaning site: https://www.huffingtonpost.com/ana-davila/drug-cartels-where-human-trafficking-and-human-smuggling-meet-today_b_7588408.html https://us.blastingnews.com/news/2017/02/the-trafficking-of-children-at-the-mexican-border-001504697.html Wikipedia: https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Human_trafficking_in_Mexico Various government and international organizations: https://ncfy.acf.hhs.gov/library/2011/human-trafficking-sex-tourism-and-child-exploitation-southern-border https://www.unicefusa.org/mission/protect/trafficking http://www.ecpat.org/wp-content/uploads/legacy/Factsheet_Mexico.pdf https://www.cbp.gov/border-security/human-trafficking The situation at our southern border is entirely bound to this. Final point: The President did not shut down the government. The President is trying to negotiate with Congressional Democrats, nearly all of which, within the last 5-10 year window had argued that we need a wall on the southern border. He has offered concession on many points that Democrats wish to see movement on, and he wants wall funding in exchange. That's how deal brokering and compromise work. The President get some of what he wants, the Democrats get some of what they want, and they both capitulate to the other on various points to get a deal done. Democrats have drawn a line in the sand, and have said that they will get all of what they want, and that the President should agree to CR funding after which they can negotiate. The Democrats have proven that they will not operate in good faith, and the President has no reason to give up the leverage he has in hand to bring them to the table. In the process, he's forcing the Democrats to take untenable political stands on issues that matter to the American people; and they will lose this fight, and lose it badly. Thank you for all of this including the relevant sources. I am a drive by poster every where on this board lol. I have been a member for almost 10 years and am here everyday but I lurk. I like to get ideas on both sides but don't care for the arguing that discussion generally leads to so again I thank you for your detailed answer and for doing it neutrally. There is a ton to chew on here so again thank you. I enjoy challenging my beliefs and growing my knowledge. It has become very difficult to get any information that hasn't been spun or is clearly slanted. 5.7 billion is a lot of money for a tool that might have a benefit. I would prefer government expenditures to have a concrete benefit. I don't see the wall as an answer but understand better how others do. Hasn't Trump also drawn a line in the sand though? He wants a wall and the gov't won't open until he gets it. Last I saw the Dems had offered 1.3 billion for the wall and he countered with 2.1 billion. 3 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 10 minutes ago, section122 said: I appreciate the answer I was sure I was just going to be shouted down lol. Sorry to respond the way I did but I'm not great with the quote boxes so I had to put my answers in a different color. I used red because no other color showed well not because I'm angry lol. It's all good! Conversation between people who don't necessarily agree are what makes this place great. My answers are not meant to be combative, just furthering the conversation: 11 minutes ago, section122 said: If the political and elite class are driving this as you say, then are we to believe that Trump is standing up against the elite class that he has spent his entire life in? He isn't someone who made it big, he started rich, has been rich his entire life, and never known a day to day struggle. Why would he, after being rewarded with the top job, turn his back on the elite class he belongs to? . This is a very valid question to ask. It was the first one I asked myself in fact when I started down this very dark, very disturbing rabbit hole. What I discovered, through first hand accounts and my own research, is that Trump was asked to run precisely because he had this background and experience. What do we know about Trump? He's a teetotaler. Yet everything you've said above is true. He hung out with the elite circles, partied with them when there weren't cameras on, he saw what some in those circles enjoy in terms of this subject and was repulsed by it. He watched all this unfold, sober, unlike everyone else around him. Now ask the same question slightly differently: Why would Trump, narcissism aside, a man who was already rich and (people forget) beloved by a large swath Americans for his braggadocio persona, risk all of that good will and his own fortune to run for President? He knew he'd take hits. He might have thought they'd be easier than he's gotten but he knew (as anyone who's watched politics knows) what happens to people who run for office. Their brands become toxic to the other half of the country who aligns with the other party. Yet Trump ran anyway. Is it just that his narcissism blinded him? Or perhaps was he running precisely to shatter this group's hold on our nation and the world? 16 minutes ago, section122 said: Between the ocean and air I just don't see this as an actual solution to the issue at hand. Wouldn't a wall just force them to be more inventive in their strategies? El Chapo breakout is a good example, the many mines under the border for smuggling drugs, etc. I get that there are expanses where it might be easier to cross but I don't think a wall stops anything. Before I answer, think back to what else we've learned from the El Chapo trial. He paid off the Mexican president to the tune of $100m in part to lobby for an open border. Yes, the criminals will always adapt and change tactics - but building tunnels or climbing the wall is not really a practical solution to the problem a border wall (in certain stretches) would pose. It would force them to go through more policed areas, force them to take fewer people at a time across, while making the cost of the journey more expensive for both the buyers and suppliers. A wall will deter the worst offenders (again, not immigrants - legal or not - trying to get into the country, talking specifically about traffickers and smugglers) to attempt to cross in different areas. Will they find new ways to get around the wall? For sure. It's what criminals do. But just because that will happen doesn't mean (imo) we shouldn't try to deter them. The truth is it needs to be a multi-pronged effort. The breakup of suppliers and trafficking rings across the globe has been happening in earnest since 2017 (as Tasker laid out). That's one part. Sanctioning the nation states who profit directly from this supply chain is another. And securing the border, or at least increasing the difficulty to gain entry with victims, is yet another part. They all have to be done together. Can't just do one or two parts and call it a day. 22 minutes ago, section122 said: I have a couple of friends that are border patrol agents. They think it is a joke. Many of my sentiments are from listening to them talk. If people want to break the law they will find ways to do so. For your issue they think increasing patrols, adding man power, and increased budgeting for gear would be better expenditures than a wall. They are stationed in Arizona on the border. They do have coworkers that support the wall but in their words those guys just want to sit in guard towers and get paid. Ask them to go on patrol with them if you're able, like a ride along program (assuming they're in the field) and see for yourself. Last summer I spent a good deal of time in Arizona, Texas and SoCal with different offices/departments. Seeing it first hand really does have an impact, let alone talking to the men and women directly. Of course people will continue to break the law, no one disputes that on this issue just as no one is saying a wall alone will stop it. Increasing patrols and technology is also an important part - it can't just be the wall alone. But as I said above, the reason why a wall is important is unlike the extra patrols and technology which are dependent upon the budget being consistent - the wall provides some permanence, whereas funding can always be taken away and suddenly we're back to where we started. 26 minutes ago, section122 said: What could we do with 5.7 billion dollars though? I hate that the idea of medicare for all which has an actual concrete benefit to all Americans is a waste of money but a wall isn't. Is a wall limiting government expenditure which is the conservative rallying cry? I'm not a conservative (shocking as that may be). I live in LA and work in Hollywood for a living... so I'm a bit of an odd duck in that regard. The sad reality is 5.7b is peanuts in the scope of the national budget. Considering what that money is actually going to go towards stopping (what we've discussed above), I'll happily support the federal government paying it. But... as others have said, it will likely be a bigger number over time. Closer to triple digits - which is a slightly bigger dent but considering the stakes and what we pay for defense, worth it (imo). 29 minutes ago, section122 said: My issue here is that it is all purely political imo. Trump promised a wall and it will be hugely damaging to him not to get it. I don't see the right as having some sort of altruistic existence. I watched them do the same obstructionism during Obama's tenure as I am watching the left do to Trump right now. I will agree that the elite classes drive politics but I disagree that one side is free from that control. They both are slaves to their donors. Hilariously or sadly the donors are oftentimes the same and contributing to both parties. Both sides are dirty, the media is in their pocket, and the middle/lower classes suffer. A couple bullet points: * There are politics at play for Trump, no one denies it least of all me. It was a central campaign promise, so he benefits from delivering upon it and it hurts him not to get it. That's a fair assessment in a vacuum. But it ignores, because the media and establishment players in DC go out of their way to obscure this, the actual benefits it gives towards fighting human trafficking. Combating Human Trafficking has been at the top of Trump's domestic (and foreign policy) agenda since day one of his campaign and day one of the administration. It's more than politics for him. It's personal and it shows in the effort and political capital he's expended to fight it - all while being ignored by the MSM. * The right isn't altruistic anymore than the left is. Both sides are bread and circus, and traditionally are more aligned than they are opposed. I call them the uni-party establishment for a reason. That's what they are. Same team, but different jerseys. But it's important to note that the current GOP is not the GOP we saw under Obama or Bush. In fact, most of that GOP fled and became part of the never Trump movement on the left (Kristol/Frum et al). Trump destroyed the GOP as we knew it in 2016. 40+ congressmen were run out of office just by Trump's victory, many of those were republican. That doesn't mean the GOP is "good" and the DNC is "evil". The real breakdown is not right vs left, or conservative vs liberal - but the establishment (which covers both sides of the aisle) versus the people. Stopping human trafficking is in the interest of the people, not a political party. In fact it threatens the uniparty establishment as it's one of their most sacred cash cows. 3 1 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ExiledInIllinois Posted January 16, 2019 Share Posted January 16, 2019 18 billion is peanuts to replumb the Chicago Area Waterways to stop Asian carp from going into the Lakes. Too bad that's a gov't boondoggle too... Because, just like Migrants in Mexico... There is no real Asian carp "invasion." 1 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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