13 Killed; 18 Hurt in So. Cal. Bar Mass Shooting

[Fadingpain]

Can't go more than a few days without another one of these in America now.

 

https://www.cnn.com/us/live-news/california-shooting-intl/index.html

 

 

 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Fadingpain

[mead107]

Shot the girl behind the bar first ( just read that)    Smoke bombs set off.  

Sick people in this world.  

 

 

[GG]

Another tragedy. 

 

I never liked when they include the murderer as part of the casualties.  The bastard killed 12.   He doesn't merit any mention among them or at all. 

[eball]

Jesus.  WTF is going on in this country?  My prediction:  an "angry white man" was responsible.

[stuvian]

another day in the USA

[Helpmenow]

We’re doomed. Getting worse. 

[RaoulDuke79]

1 hour ago, GG said:

Another tragedy. 

 

I never liked when they include the murderer as part of the casualties.  The bastard killed 12.   He doesn't merit any mention among them or at all. 

I agree with the sentiment,  but I think the reason in doing so is to let the public know that the shooter is dead and there is no longer a threat .

[boyst]

Ah, in this thread:

Racism

Projection

Political unrest

Silliness.

And lies.

 

 

Well done.

 

 

[\GoBillsInDallas/]

Former marine, possible PTSD, previous mental health issues:

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-thousand-oaks-20181107-story.html

 

 

[ExiledInIllinois]

1 hour ago, Boyst62 said:

Ah, in this thread:

Racism

Projection

Political unrest

Silliness.

And lies.

 

 

Well done.

 

 

 

Oh Stewardess!  I speak Boyst!

 

He said: "Move along people, nothing to see here, everything is fine, who cares, don't expect me to interrupt my fine existence."

 

In other words:

 

 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 hour ago, Boyst62 said:

Ah, in this thread:

Racism

Projection

Political unrest

Silliness.

And lies.

 

 

Well done.

 

 

 

what the ***** do expect mac, this is ***** america. all you listed lives/breeds AND dies here.

 

 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Boyst62 said:

Ah, in this thread:

Racism

Projection

Political unrest

Silliness.

And lies.

 

 

Well done.

 

 

Did someones post get deleted?  

 

I saw maybe 1 projection.    the rest was disgust for the murderer.

 

[boyst]

19 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

Did someones post get deleted?  

 

I saw maybe 1 projection.    the rest was disgust for the murderer.

 

Angry white man = racist.

Projection of outcome = angry white man and what's world coming to type posts

Political unrest = temperament of posts in California for where this was illegsl.

Silliness = jump to conclusions and blame already 

Lies = see above.

 

30 minutes ago, no name said:

 

what the ***** do expect mac, this is ***** america. all you listed lives/breeds AND dies here.

 

 

And everywhere.  ??‍♂️??‍♂️

41 minutes ago, \GoBillsInDallas/ said:

Former marine, possible PTSD, previous mental health issues:

 

http://www.latimes.com/local/lanow/la-me-ln-thousand-oaks-20181107-story.html

 

 

I'm blaming all Marines for this tragedy today.

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

20 minutes ago, Boyst62 said:

Angry white man = racist.

Projection of outcome = angry white man and what's world coming to type posts

Political unrest = temperament of posts in California for where this was illegsl.

Silliness = jump to conclusions and blame already 

Lies = see above.

 

And everywhere.  ??‍♂️??‍♂️

I'm blaming all Marines for this tragedy today.

 

I'm blaming war. pstd. of course you've probably never seen anyone with the 1000 mile stare or had family serve in the corps. then again you may know someone and you just thought you would post an idiotic comment like that.

Edited November 8, 2018 by no name

[boyst]

2 minutes ago, no name said:

 

I'm blaming war. pstd. of course you've probably never seen anyone with the 1000 mile stare or had family serve in the corps. then again you may know someone and you just thought you would post an idiotic comment like that.

??‍♂️??‍♂️

[eball]

4 hours ago, eball said:

Jesus.  WTF is going on in this country?  My prediction:  an "angry white man" was responsible.

 

Annnnnd, check.

 

The poor white men in this country.  If they could only catch a break.

 

I'm done here.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Boyst62 said:

Angry white man = racist.

Projection of outcome = angry white man and what's world coming to type posts

Political unrest = temperament of posts in California for where this was illegsl.

Silliness = jump to conclusions and blame already 

Lies = see above.

You take things to serious and literal Boyst. 

 

Political unrest?  who's fault is that? 

The untethered idiots on Twitter? 

The angry right or left?  

[Chef Jim]

59 minutes ago, eball said:

 

Annnnnd, check.

 

The poor white men in this country.  If they could only catch a break.

 

I'm done here.

 

Funny how you bring up the BS and when called out you leave.  Good job. 

[ExiledInIllinois]

For gun control to work it has to have no borders.  Can't have strict gun control in Chicago and then in 3 minutes get out of town in suburbs or go from Chicago to Hammond, Indiana.  Gun control is brought down by the jurisdiction(s) that is most lax.

 

It has to be all or nothing.

Edited November 8, 2018 by ExiledInIllinois

[GETTOTHE50]

I think we’re going to start seeing some ol western, saloon style shootouts here shortly 

 

 

[boyst]

1 hour ago, eball said:

 

Annnnnd, check.

 

The poor white men in this country.  If they could only catch a break.

 

I'm done here.

Common man, I'm pretty sure it's fair we blame every marine in this country, too.  Not just us white men.  

 

Do we only half blame biracial Caucasian men?  What about women who identify as white men if they're biracial?

 

Edit: maybe instead of the Marines we blame the Navy. They started the Marines and are responsible for them!  Eff the Navy. And those sorry Marines.

 

44 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

You take things to serious and literal Boyst. 

 

Political unrest?  who's fault is that? 

The untethered idiots on Twitter? 

The angry right or left?  

Yes, I am tired of blowhards espousing hate and rhetoric of those they disagree with as being enemies (and even worse, attacking their homes, lives, familes, personal lives, etc).  

 

So, when we actually stand up to the bullies in the ways we are allowed we will get things done.

15 minutes ago, GETTOTHE50 said:

I think we’re going to start seeing some ol western, saloon style shootouts here shortly 

 

 

Good thing we still have rights and people who use and respect them. 

Edited November 8, 2018 by Boyst62

[The Real Buffalo Joe]

58 minutes ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

For gun control to work it has to have no borders.  Can't have strict gun control in Chicago and then in 3 minutes get out of town in suburbs or go from Chicago to Hammond, Indiana.  Gun control is brought down by the jurisdiction(s) that is most lax.

 

It has to be all or nothing.

"Now they're tryin' to take my guns away
And that would be just fine
If you take 'em away from the criminals first
I'll gladly give ya mine"

 

- Charlie Daniels

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

1 hour ago, Boyst62 said:

Yes, I am tired of blowhards espousing hate and rhetoric of those they disagree with as being enemies (and even worse, attacking their homes, lives, familes, personal lives, etc).  

 

So, when we actually stand up to the bullies in the ways we are allowed we will get things done.

 

I agree.   Blowhards are exactly that.  Wind.  Lots of talk and little action. 
 

We should stand up to the bullies.   

 

I for one would like to start with Trump.  (both in seriousness and sarcastically) 

1 hour ago, The Real Buffalo Joe said:

"Now they're tryin' to take my guns away
And that would be just fine
If you take 'em away from the criminals first
I'll gladly give ya mine"

 

- Charlie Daniels

I've moved to 4 different states since I left NY.   the states that I moved too didn't require me to register my guns. 

 

If they want to hunt me down they can come after me.  

 

[boyst]

8 minutes ago, ShadyBillsFan said:

 

I agree.   Blowhards are exactly that.  Wind.  Lots of talk and little action. 
 

We should stand up to the bullies.   

 

I for one would like to start with Trump.  (both in seriousness and sarcastically) 

I've moved to 4 different states since I left NY.   the states that I moved too didn't require me to register my guns. 

 

If they want to hunt me down they can come after me.  

 

#NPCShadySide done good

[Buffalo716]

3 hours ago, no name said:

 

I'm blaming war. pstd. of course you've probably never seen anyone with the 1000 mile stare or had family serve in the corps. then again you may know someone and you just thought you would post an idiotic comment like that.

My cousin was in the 3/5 infantry marine Corp 

 

did 5+ tours of duty and received a Purple Heart and bronze star. Was at Fallujah , Sangin (the deadliest battle of Afghanistan war)

 

he has very bad ptsd and of course a 1000 yard stare 

 

but he would never do anything like that. Whoever did this was sick

 

It wouldn’t be fair to lump him with all the veterans who never do anything heinous 

[Bill from NYC]

4 hours ago, eball said:

 

Annnnnd, check.

 

The poor white men in this country.  If they could only catch a break.

 

I'm done here.

Good.

[RaoulDuke79]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

My cousin was in the 3/5 infantry marine Corp 

 

did 5+ tours of duty and received a Purple Heart and bronze star. Was at Fallujah , Sangin (the deadliest battle of Afghanistan war)

 

he has very bad ptsd and of course a 1000 yard stare 

 

but he would never do anything like that. Whoever did this was sick

 

It wouldn’t be fair to lump him with all the veterans who never do anything heinous 

I've been thinking a lot about the PTSD thing, and I have to think there's got to be additional factors that make people do things like this. The guys that came back from WWII, The Koren War, Vietnam etc....

They've seen the same hells that younger generations have and these kinds of things didn't happen with the frequency they are now. I'm not sure what it is, but people just seem more batshit crazy these days.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, RaoulDuke79 said:

I've been thinking a lot about the PTSD thing, and I have to think there's got to be additional factors that make people do things like this. The guys that came back from WWII, The Koren War, Vietnam etc....

They've seen the same hells that younger generations have and these kinds of things didn't happen with the frequency they are now. I'm not sure what it is, but people just seem more batshit crazy these days.

 

Yea it’s a semi mystery . PTSD was not unheard of back in the WW1 and 2 days , it just had a different name

 

it was called shell shocked in WW1 

 

but i agree, we have decades of veterans who don’t snap. It’s something more 

[boyst]

18 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

I've been thinking a lot about the PTSD thing, and I have to think there's got to be additional factors that make people do things like this. The guys that came back from WWII, The Koren War, Vietnam etc....

They've seen the same hells that younger generations have and these kinds of things didn't happen with the frequency they are now. I'm not sure what it is, but people just seem more batshit crazy these days.

Yeah, but honestly we can't say much. Those generations have never been #triggered. Those generations never had to be tough enough to enter a #safespace or account for any appropriation of their culture and beliefs!  The struggle current young people go through is unjust and unfair - they are not guilty of the errors of their fathers and we need to blame others before us on problems we can fix today.

[Fadingpain]

PTSD is nothing new!  It's gone on as long as war has gone on.

 

In WWI it was called "Shell shock."  In WWII it was called "Combat fatigue."

 

Now it's called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. 

Doesn't matter what you call it, it doesn't change. Why do some with it commit acts of violence but most do not?  I don't know.

Was the PTSD related to this killing or was that not a factor?  I'm not sure.

 

As RaoulDuke79 asks, why does this stuff seem to be super common now but it seems to have been rare in decades past?  I'm not sure again. 

 

It's a difficult issue to try and tackle, but we do see one consistent theme with these shootings: the shooters have guns, and they are nuts with documented histories of mental illness.

 

It might not hurt to make it damned near impossible for anyone with a documented history of mental illness to own a firearm.

 

That wouldn't stop the guy who wants to go buy one illegally from a criminal, but at least that would probably cut down the raw number of these types of shootings.

 

I don't know.

 

 

[mrags]

3 hours ago, ExiledInIllinois said:

For gun control to work it has to have no borders.  Can't have strict gun control in Chicago and then in 3 minutes get out of town in suburbs or go from Chicago to Hammond, Indiana.  Gun control is brought down by the jurisdiction(s) that is most lax.

 

It has to be all or nothing.

Perfecr. Let’s male sure that guns in the entire world are banned. Put in a giant rocket and shipped off to the sun. That way no criminals can ever get their hands on them and we will be all safe. 

 

Also, we’ll have to outlaw tubes of any sort because criminals can just make zip guns out of things like pen tubes and a .22 round. 

 

So so let’s just just outlaw every single thing in the world. Live in a society like I’m the movie Equilibrium where books, music, free thinking is outlawed. 

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

40 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

My cousin was in the 3/5 infantry marine Corp 

 

did 5+ tours of duty and received a Purple Heart and bronze star. Was at Fallujah , Sangin (the deadliest battle of Afghanistan war)

 

he has very bad ptsd and of course a 1000 yard stare 

 

but he would never do anything like that. Whoever did this was sick

 

It wouldn’t be fair to lump him with all the veterans who never do anything heinous 

 

I agree with you to an extent. very similar situation only closer then a cousin, my brother. no need to give details. sights and being in that type of combat of war can break the strongest of wills. as for saying never, I can only hope it would be never but it is something that affects each individual differently. not to give that marine any excuse, but ptsd is a serious condition that can seriously ***** with the mind.

[RaoulDuke79]

1 minute ago, Fadingpain said:

PTSD is nothing new!  It's gone on as long as war has gone on.

 

In WWI it was called "Shell shock."  In WWII it was called "Combat fatigue."

 

Now it's called Post Traumatic Stress Disorder. 

Doesn't matter what you call it, it doesn't change. Why do some with it commit acts of violence but most do not?  I don't know.

Was the PTSD related to this killing or was that not a factor?  I'm not sure.

 

As RaoulDuke79 asks, why does this stuff seem to be super common now but it seems to have been rare in decades past?  I'm not sure again. 

 

It's a difficult issue to try and tackle, but we do see one consistent theme with these shootings: the shooters have guns, and they are nuts with documented histories of mental illness.

 

It might not hurt to make it damned near impossible for anyone with a documented history of mental illness to own a firearm.

 

That wouldn't stop the guy who wants to go buy one illegally from a criminal, but at least that would probably cut down the raw number of these types of shootings.

 

I don't know.

 

 

I completely agree, but it's just not practical. The ACLU would be all over it, and it's just as easy to get a gun illegally as legally. It's a damn slippery slope with now easy answers. I definitely thin some people shouldn't have guns, but how to go about that without confining them is nearly impossible. 

[Buffalo716]

3 minutes ago, no name said:

 

I agree with you to an extent. very similar situation only closer then a cousin, my brother. no need to give details. sights and being in that type of combat of war can break the strongest of wills. as for saying never, I can only hope it would be never but it is something that affects each individual differently. not to give that marine any excuse, but ptsd is a serious condition that can seriously ***** with the mind.

Definitely. And I just used my cousin as an example because he had it the worst

 

i come from a military family , I understand The perils they go through to keep us safe

Edited November 8, 2018 by Buffalo716

[DaBillsFanSince1973]

1 minute ago, Buffalo716 said:

Definitely. And I just used my cousin as an example because he had it the worst

 

i come from a military family , I understand The perils they go through to keep us safe

 

as do I brother, all too well.

[mrags]

33 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Yea it’s a semi mystery . PTSD was not unheard of back in the WW1 and 2 days , it just had a different name

 

it was called shell shocked in WW1 

 

but i agree, we have decades of veterans who don’t snap. It’s something more 

It’s the liberal world we live in now where people need safe spaces. Are offended by everything. Etc. it’s being taught in schools now and has been for many years. That’s the change. 

 

We used to stand up for the pledge of allegiance every morning with our hands over our hearts. We used to love and be proud of this country. Now teachers are teaching kids to stand up against governments and officials just because THEY have different opinions. 

[RaoulDuke79]

Also, PTSD  now has cast such a large swath,  almost anyone who's had the slightest bit of adversity in their life can use that as a scape goat, which detracts from those who actually dealt with some serious *****.

[Fadingpain]

5 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

I completely agree, but it's just not practical. The ACLU would be all over it, and it's just as easy to get a gun illegally as legally. It's a damn slippery slope with now easy answers. I definitely thin some people shouldn't have guns, but how to go about that without confining them is nearly impossible. 

Our laws place all kinds of restrictions on individual freedom all the time.  I think something could be done in terms of making it almost impossible, legally, to own a firearm if you have some type of documented mental health issue.

But as I mentioned, that doesn't stop illegal firearm use, nor does it stop someone who is nuts, but has slipped through the cracks and isn't documented as being nuts, from legally owning a gun either.

 

You'll never eliminate this sort of thing but maybe you can try to reduce the number of these.  

 

The best way, of course, is to not have a society swimming in firearms.  But we already have that and there is no way to make firearms go away, so to a large extent, we are just screwed.

 

 

[mrags]

Just now, RaoulDuke79 said:

Also, PTSD  now has cast such a large swath,  almost anyone who's had the slightest bit of adversity in their life can use that as a scape goat, which detracts from those who actually dealt with some serious *****.

This too. There are people claiming this because their preferred candidate didn’t win an election. Grow the F$)K up is what I say. 

1 minute ago, Fadingpain said:

Our laws place all kinds of restrictions on individual freedom all the time.  I think something could be done in terms of making it almost impossible, legally, to own a firearm if you have some type of documented mental health issue.

But as I mentioned, that doesn't stop illegal firearm use, nor does it stop someone who is nuts, but has slipped through the cracks and isn't documented as being nuts, from legally owning a gun either.

 

You'll never eliminate this sort of thing but maybe you can try to reduce the number of these.  

 

The best way, of course, is to not have a society swimming in firearms.  But we already have that and there is no way to make firearms go away, so to a large extent, we are just screwed.

 

 

Even if you could. People that want to create chaos and kill others or do others harm will just find other way to do it. Hammers. Hatches. Poison. Home made pipe bombs. Pressure cookers. Fire. The list goes on and on. 

 

Want to know what is good against a bad guy with a gun? A good guy with a gun. 

[Fadingpain]

2 minutes ago, RaoulDuke79 said:

Also, PTSD  now has cast such a large swath,  almost anyone who's had the slightest bit of adversity in their life can use that as a scape goat, which detracts from those who actually dealt with some serious *****.

I'm interested in military history and this country is now engaged in the ongoing business of waging war, almost perpetually.

 

There is a LOT of stuff out there to be consumed by someone like me, from documentaries, television shows, non-fiction written by veterans, raw combat footage on Youtube, etc.

 

I've recently come to the conclusion that almost anyone who is exposed to combat likely has PTSD to some degree.  Some have it very badly, but no one seems to be entirely immune from it.  Even those who think they are OK are not OK in my opinion.  

 

It seems almost impossible to escape if a human is involved in some serious #*&$# as you say.

 

It seems like we are just starting to tune into this stuff as a society.