The Rosen Era Has Begun in Arizona

[26CornerBlitz]

 

6 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

I remember during the injury debate with Rosen I said Allen probably gets hurt 1st, and look at that. Both players won't survive in the NFL. Allen thinks he's a running back. Has to protect his body better. 

 

Oh I'll definitely come off that position as soon as Josh Allen anticipates a throw. 

 

That's going to take a while with him still having room to grow in pre and post snap diagnosis among other areas. 

[K-9]

Not sure I fully understand the Rosen infatuation, one way or the other. Nothing Rosen does or doesn't do lends itself to the decision to trade up and select Josh Allen. Allen will rise or fall on his own merits, whether Rosen craps the bed like last night or has a great game, regardless. 

 

It says a lot about us as fans if we need to celebrate the failure of Rosen because it somehow validates drafting Allen; it simply doesn't. No matter how much we wish it did.

 

People judge these games like a sprint when it's a marathon barely off the starting line. 

[LSHMEAB]

3 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

What rookie QB would have done well behind that OL last night against Denver's front?  None of them I'd say.  

 

It was Cincy preseason week 3 bad and JA was completely overwhelmed. Couldn't even get rid of the ball.

 

JA has been pretty well protected. I think they've done some things in terms of sliding protection which limits the route runners, but at least he's had time.

[Teddy KGB]

16 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

 

Oh I'll definitely come off that position as soon as Josh Allen anticipates a throw. 

 

39 second mark        https://www.buffalobills.com/video/every-josh-allen-throw-vs-vikings-week-3

[ctk232]

5 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Not sure I fully understand the Rosen infatuation, one way or the other. Nothing Rosen does or doesn't do lends itself to the decision to trade up and select Josh Allen. Allen will rise or fall on his own merits, whether Rosen craps the bed like last night or has a great game, regardless. 

 

It says a lot about us as fans if we need to celebrate the failure of Rosen because it somehow validates drafting Allen; it simply doesn't. No matter how much we wish it did.

 

People judge these games like a sprint when it's a marathon barely off the starting line. 

Nailed it - sadly we'll always be comparing ourselves to everyone else. While you can draw few universal commonalities across teams in the league, saying we passed up on a QB or any other player doesn't mean anything. Had we drafted Rosen, there's no guarantee he plays the way he's playing now, or that anything plays out the way it is now.

 

We also want to do this to validate our own beliefs, or disbelief in our FO and other components of the organization, but mostly for the reason you write above. The other piece is the insanely flawed logic that all QBs drafted this year should progress at the same rate. In what world could that be true? Even with 5 identical QBs in every single atomic way, drafted by 5 different teams will all develop differently and at different rates. Allen was always going to take the longest, and likely wouldn't have started until at least next year in our FO's ideal world. The sky is falling routine after six weeks is getting old. Be critical of his performance and development, sure, but calling it after so little efficacious data has been presented is pretty pathetic.

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, LSHMEAB said:

 

It was Cincy preseason week 3 bad and JA was completely overwhelmed. Couldn't even get rid of the ball.

 

JA has been pretty well protected. I think they've done some things in terms of sliding protection which limits the route runners, but at least he's had time.

 

The last couple of weeks the Bills' OL has actually been decent and there have been plays to be made in the passing game.  Allen was misdiagnosing too many of them.  Not unexpected given how much he has to learn.  I'm hoping he reads and decides faster after his time watching Anderson. 

[Buffalo_Stampede]

1 minute ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

39 second mark        https://www.buffalobills.com/video/every-josh-allen-throw-vs-vikings-week-3

Come on. A 1st read slant? A JV QB makes that throw. Why are our expectations so low for QB's? 

[keepthefaith]

1 hour ago, joesixpack said:

 

I. Thou shalt not point out Josh Rosen's glaring deficiencies.

II. Thou shalt only point out Josh Allen's glaring deficiencies.

III. Thou shalt criticize the front office for taking Josh Allen instead of Josh Rosen.

IV. Thou shalt not attempt to reconcile these seemingly disparate commandments, especially when comparing the nearly identical output of the two QBs.

 

Now, I only need 6 more. ?

 

 

Thou shalt expect 1st round drafted rookie QB's on crappy teams to immediately play at a high level and declare them busts when they don't. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by keepthefaith

[GoBills808]

13 minutes ago, K-9 said:

Not sure I fully understand the Rosen infatuation, one way or the other. Nothing Rosen does or doesn't do lends itself to the decision to trade up and select Josh Allen. Allen will rise or fall on his own merits, whether Rosen craps the bed like last night or has a great game, regardless. 

 

It says a lot about us as fans if we need to celebrate the failure of Rosen because it somehow validates drafting Allen; it simply doesn't. No matter how much we wish it did.

 

People judge these games like a sprint when it's a marathon barely off the starting line. 

The 'celebrating Rosen's failure' is as much a nudge to everyone who's so quick to label Allen busto as it is a comparison of the two. 

 

Can't speak for everyone, but I'm just highlighting the dichotomy between responses to bad performances; Rosen's afforded the appropriate (in my mind) amount of leeway, Allen is most definitively not. I don't see any harm in pointing that out.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

4 minutes ago, keepthefaith said:

 

Thou shalt expect 1st round drafted rookie QB's on crappy teams to immediately play at a high level and declare them busts when they don't. 

 

I thought of another one! "Thou shalt declare McBeane incapable of understanding offense after one offseason together."
 

[26CornerBlitz]

Cardinals’ Dreadful Loss to Broncos isn’t Josh Rosen’s Fault

 

By CONOR ORR  October 18, 2018

 

It’s a shame to think about the number of talented quarterbacks who were drafted onto bad teams with bad offenses, who then floundered and had to shoulder the psychological weight of a “bust” label that was not entirely their fault for the rest of their lives.

 

When a young quarterback is in a situation with no hope, no respite in sight, it’s easy to spot. Josh Rosen was there Thursday night amid a 45–10 loss where he was intercepted three times (two went back for touchdowns), and sacked six times. The Cardinals have been there all season.

 

Arizona came into a prime time game against the Broncos ranked last in yards per game, second to last in points per game and last in third down percentage (22%). The team did not successfully convert a third down until the 9:57 minute mark of the third quarter against Denver.

 

While the trappings of a disaster game were present early with the fluke tipped pass, intercepted and returned for a touchdown, this was a game that may have been over before kickoff. A spin through Rosen film this year shows so many doomed concepts. Sure, there is the jet sweep tossed in for modernity, but the offense looks like something straight out of 1999 (and not the good parts of 1999 that Jon Gruden spent all offseason rhapsodizing about). So few of Rosen’s plays have any diverging action, or something to take the pressure off the focus of the play. There is almost never the mouth-agape, wide-open pass. Anything that isn’t a simplistic, muddled slant over the middle seems like a forever-developing deep route that would almost assure Rosen on his backside by the time it was finished.

[K-9]

5 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

I thought of another one! "Thou shalt declare McBeane incapable of understanding offense after one offseason together."
 

This idea that McDermott doesn't "understand offense" is absurd when you think about it. As a life long defensive coach/DC, he has spent his career breaking down thousands of hours worth of offense. It's inconceivable that he doesn't understand offense, especially when he's had some success in devising schemes to stop them. 

[GoBills808]

Yep case in point.

[K-9]

13 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

The 'celebrating Rosen's failure' is as much a nudge to everyone who's so quick to label Allen busto as it is a comparison of the two. 

 

Can't speak for everyone, but I'm just highlighting the dichotomy between responses to bad performances; Rosen's afforded the appropriate (in my mind) amount of leeway, Allen is most definitively not. I don't see any harm in pointing that out.

I appreciate the insight here. But there is a segment of the fan base that delights in Rosen's failures because that somehow shows he's worse than our guy. And that is an entirely illogical approach. 

[thebandit27]

45 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

 

Oh I'll definitely come off that position as soon as Josh Allen anticipates a throw. 

 

Then you should've come off of it the second Allen through a perfect blitz beater for a would-be TD against Minnesota on 3rd down that Benjamin dropped.

 

Just sayin'

24 minutes ago, TheTruthHurts said:

Come on. A 1st read slant? A JV QB makes that throw. Why are our expectations so low for QB's? 

 

Ah, so it's not "as soon as he anticipates a throw"...it's "as soon as he anticipates a throw that I feel like acknowledging"

 

 

9 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

Cardinals’ Dreadful Loss to Broncos isn’t Josh Rosen’s Fault

 

By CONOR ORR  October 18, 2018

 

It’s a shame to think about the number of talented quarterbacks who were drafted onto bad teams with bad offenses, who then floundered and had to shoulder the psychological weight of a “bust” label that was not entirely their fault for the rest of their lives.

 

When a young quarterback is in a situation with no hope, no respite in sight, it’s easy to spot. Josh Rosen was there Thursday night amid a 45–10 loss where he was intercepted three times (two went back for touchdowns), and sacked six times. The Cardinals have been there all season.

 

Arizona came into a prime time game against the Broncos ranked last in yards per game, second to last in points per game and last in third down percentage (22%). The team did not successfully convert a third down until the 9:57 minute mark of the third quarter against Denver.

 

While the trappings of a disaster game were present early with the fluke tipped pass, intercepted and returned for a touchdown, this was a game that may have been over before kickoff. A spin through Rosen film this year shows so many doomed concepts. Sure, there is the jet sweep tossed in for modernity, but the offense looks like something straight out of 1999 (and not the good parts of 1999 that Jon Gruden spent all offseason rhapsodizing about). So few of Rosen’s plays have any diverging action, or something to take the pressure off the focus of the play. There is almost never the mouth-agape, wide-open pass. Anything that isn’t a simplistic, muddled slant over the middle seems like a forever-developing deep route that would almost assure Rosen on his backside by the time it was finished.

 

I've got to ask: earlier in this thread, you said that people making excuses for Allen was a defense mechanism.

 

Whether you mean to be doing it or not, the last few pages read an awful lot like what people on this board are saying in defense of Allen's less-than-stellar work on the field...I'm sure you've thought this through, so I'll ask: what's the difference?

[26CornerBlitz]

4 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

Then you should've come off of it the second Allen through a perfect blitz beater for a would-be TD against Minnesota on 3rd down that Benjamin dropped.

 

Just sayin'

 

Ah, so it's not "as soon as he anticipates a throw"...it's "as soon as he anticipates a throw that I feel like acknowledging"

 

I've got to ask: earlier in this thread, you said that people making excuses for Allen was a defense mechanism.

 

Whether you mean to be doing it or not, the last few pages read an awful lot like what people on this board are saying in defense of Allen's less-than-stellar work on the field...I'm sure you've thought this through, so I'll ask: what's the difference?

 

I have said repeatedly in multiple threads that Allen was put in a bad situation with a poor supporting cast, but that doesn't excuse the areas that he needs to show growth in. Same goes for Rosen, who didn't play well last night with some poor throws and ball security issues. 

[SWATeam]

6 minutes ago, thebandit27 said:

 

 

Whether you mean to be doing it or not, the last few pages read an awful lot like what people on this board are saying in defense of Allen's less-than-stellar work on the field...I'm sure you've thought this through, so I'll ask: what's the difference?

This difference is that he wanted Rosen over Allen.

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, SWATeam said:

This difference is that he wanted Rosen over Allen.

 

So what. I want Allen to succeed, but that does not mean his growth curve has lessened. He has a long way to go. 

[SWATeam]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

So what. I want Allen to succeed, but that does not mean his growth curve has lessened. He has a long way to go. 

So what is that your criticisms, or lack thereof, are driven by your preconceptions.

 

Had Rosen looked good last night, this place would have been lousy with "I told you so!"  Since he looked like Peterman, his supporters resort to the same excuses that Allen supporters use.  It's all very predictable.

[dubs]

Josh Rosen is a rich mans Nate Peterman. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

J/K....rookies do rookie things. It’s happening to Baker, Darnold, Rosen and obviously Allen. People need to chill out and realize that there are no conclusions to be had on these guys for a while. 

[K-9]

1 minute ago, dubs said:

Josh Rosen is a rich mans Nate Peterman. 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

 

J/K....rookies do rookie things. It’s happening to Baker, Darnold, Rosen and obviously Allen. People need to chill out and realize that there are no conclusions to be had on these guys for a while. 

Amen. 

[26CornerBlitz]

4 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

So what is that your criticisms, or lack thereof, are driven by your preconceptions.

 

Had Rosen looked good last night, this place would have been lousy with "I told you so!"  Since he looked like Peterman, his supporters resort to the same excuses that Allen supporters use.  It's all very predictable.

 

Are they?  Point to one inaccurate thing I have posted about either Rosen or Allen.  This should be good. 

Edited October 19, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[BringBackOrton]

12 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

I have said repeatedly in multiple threads that Allen was put in a bad situation with a poor supporting cast, but that doesn't excuse the areas that he needs to show growth in. Same goes for Rosen, who didn't play well last night with some poor throws and ball security issues. 

Rosen has a way better cast which you refuse to acknowledge. Larry Fitzgerald’s corpse would be our #1 WR by a large margin. David Johnson is better, younger and fresher than McCoy. 

[GoBills808]

4 minutes ago, SWATeam said:

So what is that your criticisms, or lack thereof, are driven by your preconceptions.

 

Had Rosen looked good last night, this place would have been lousy with "I told you so!"  Since he looked like Peterman, his supporters resort to the same excuses that Allen supporters use.  It's all very predictable.

The difference (to me at least) is that there's a very reasonable explanation as to why someone might be an 'Allen supporter' on this particular messageboard, whereas I don't see why anyone would extend Rosen the benefit of the doubt while being so negative on Allen. 

[Bakin]

23 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I appreciate the insight here. But there is a segment of the fan base that delights in Rosen's failures because that somehow shows he's worse than our guy. And that is an entirely illogical approach. 

Since when is being a Sports fan logical?

Least of all a Bills fan??

 

All of it means precisely nothing. 

But it’s fun to rage I guess. 

[SWATeam]

Just now, GoBills808 said:

The difference (to me at least) is that there's a very reasonable explanation as to why someone might be an 'Allen supporter' on this particular messageboard, whereas I don't see why anyone would extend Rosen the benefit of the doubt while being so negative on Allen. 

Just so they could be "right" about their pre-draft opinions on the players.

 

Personally, I liked Rosen more than Allen.  But I certainly don't pretend to know more then the teams with actual access to these kids. 

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, Bakin said:

Since when is being a Sports fan logical?

Least of all a Bills fan??

 

All of it means precisely nothing. 

But it’s fun to rage I guess. 

Can't argue that. 

[BillsfanAZ]

Nobody thought any of the rookie QB's drafted this year were ready to start. Most thought they would be a back up until later in the season or next season. Aside from Darnold they were all backups. The only reason all of them are playing is because of ineffective starters ahead of them. None of them won the starting job outright. We sit here and compare them all through the same lense when each one is in a different situation. Only thing they have in common is they are all on bad teams. They will all have good moments, bad moments, and horrible moments this season. Nobody can say what type of NFL career they will have by watching a handful of games. Watson said in his second season he is way ahead of where he was when he was a rookie. If half way through next season Allen is still having the same problems then it may be time to look to the draft again. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

31 minutes ago, K-9 said:

I appreciate the insight here. But there is a segment of the fan base that delights in Rosen's failures because that somehow shows he's worse than our guy. And that is an entirely illogical approach. 

 

it isn't personal with Rosen.

 

it IS personal with the "wrong josh" set.

 

[dubs]

Rosen has Allen beat in one stat, decidedly. Coach killings. 

 

 

I know...I’m trolling sorry. ?

Edited October 19, 2018 by dubs

[paulbills]

I think Rosen has looked better than Allen, regardless of his INTs. Allen and Rosen actually have the same # of INTs. Allen was the riskier pick for sure. 

[Casey D]

3 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

it isn't personal with Rosen.

 

it IS personal with the "wrong josh" set.

 

Exactly.

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, Casey D said:

Exactly.

 

Which means exactly nothing about how things will turn out. 

[IDBillzFan]

1 hour ago, Teddy KGB said:

 

180 yards 1 td ?    

 

What was the good part ? 

 

He wasn't Josh Allen.

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

3 minutes ago, LABillzFan said:

 

He wasn't Josh Allen.

 

And this is the crux of it. Somehow, with similar or WORSE numbers...that group of people think Rosen was the better choice.

 

boggling, really.

 

[John from Riverside]

6 minutes ago, paulbills said:

I think Rosen has looked better than Allen, regardless of his INTs. Allen and Rosen actually have the same # of INTs. Allen was the riskier pick for sure. 

Two of Allen's picks were bad plays by his receivers.......

 

Allen's ball security appears to be better then Rosen's at this point

 

I will say this in Rosen's defense...he is by the eyeball test more accurate with the ball right now.......even if he is making poor decisions with it and even if his supporting cast is better........

[26CornerBlitz]

Just now, John from Riverside said:

Two of Allen's picks were bad plays by his receivers.......

 

Allen's ball security appears to be better then Rosen's at this point

 

I will say this in Rosen's defense...he is by the eyeball test more accurate with the ball right now.......even if he is making poor decisions with it and even if his supporting cast is better........

 

It isn't.  The ARI OL is bad and it''s been made worse by two starting Guards being out of the lineup. 

[Casey D]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Which means exactly nothing about how things will turn out. 

Of course not.  No one does.  But many have and continue to claim Rosen is superior, based on no facts.  They preferred Rosen and that's that.  If Allen ends up in the HOF and Rosen is bagging groceries in 2021, it will be because McCoy ruined him or some such thing.

 

None of the rookies look great-- hardly surprising at this juncture.  But for everyone other than Allen, "it's let see how it turns out."  For Allen the view is he was always going to be a bust, and he has busted.  Double standard.

[IDBillzFan]

Just now, joesixpack said:

 

And this is the crux of it. Somehow, with similar or WORSE numbers...that group of people think Rosen was the better choice.

 

boggling, really.

 

 

As always, the easiest thing a fan of the NFL can do is predict failure, which leads to the second easiest thing they can do; say "I told you so."

 

 

[John from Riverside]

Just now, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

It isn't.  The ARI OL is bad and it''s been made worse by two starting Guards being out of the lineup. 

It is actually....and I am referring to his offensive weapons.

 

Corner....Im trying to back you up a bit here