SI - Josh Allen, Thrown to the Wolves

[Seasons1992]

23 minutes ago, Pre1236 said:

Allen is in a terrible situation - to say otherwise is disingenuous. Doesn't mean he won't be successful but, if you are honest, can you imagine a worse situation for a prospect? Especially a prospect who is largely considered "raw".  How this organization thought it made sense to enter the season with Allen and Peterman as the only two QBs is downright alarming. 

 

I'd rather have this right now than the Dak Prescott situation from when he looked like a world-beater year 1 due to the team around him, and now looks pedestrian. Let's get someone that suffers early and then has a great career down the line for a decade or more vs. early (false) returns.

 

Sincerely, 

 

Honest Bills fan completely ready for a 2-14 campaign, to get better for the future.

[baskingridgebillsfan]

Just now, PromoTheRobot said:

I'm so happy that the media gives us a clear direction on how to develop players like Josh Allen. Start him, don't start him, he's grat, he's a bust. Clear as mud.

 

But that is not the issue.  They spent roughly 25 million most on defense.   Why not invest in o line or a vet wide receiver.   Even if the had to over pay.  They certainly over payed for star and Davis.  

They made a major investment in Allen why not get him as much help as possible 

[The Wiz]

Hopefully Allen is preparing like this.

[John from Riverside]

14 minutes ago, iinii said:

Why is this so difficult for some people to realize?

The more as time goes on the more I am starting to agree with this.......Beane has this plan of getting rid of salary and bad contracts this year but maybe we should have spent a little money and brought in a guy that we can at least have some confidence in starting while Allen sat for a year.

 

That said...the train has left the station.....he is on the Payton Manning/Troy Aikman path now

[metzelaars_lives]

OK FWIW:

 

1. Mark is my brother.

 

2. He is, in fact, very successful, as is the other gentleman quoted in the article, who is a close family friend of ours.

 

3. He is not a TBD poster.  He thinks it's ridiculous I actually spend so much time on here.

 

4. Their/our (I go back for a few games a year) tailgate was, in fact, the genesis of the table smash, as evidenced by the deadspin article/video from 10/5/15 in which a guy jumped through their table (at their request) and went viral (my bros and friends are right there in the video).  The phenomenon spread shortly thereafter.  If anyone can find evidence of a table smash prior to 10/5/15, please share.  We are all late 90's WWF/ECW junkies so that was kind of where the idea came from.

 

5. Of course Josh Allen is in the worst possible position to succeed.  He has the worst OL in the NFL (maybe the Giants?), the worst group of receivers/weapons maybe ever?, the worst defense in the NFL, Nathan Peterman as his backup/mentor and he was perceived as a project to begin with.  Who could possibly dispute that?  Juxtapose that with Patrick Mahomes, who got to study and learn under Alex Smith for a full year, has Andy Reid as his coach and the BEST set of weapons in the NFL at his disposal.  So yeah, Mark Shepard is right.

 

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[ProcessAccepted]

1 hour ago, 4_kidd_4 said:

Well if Mark Shepard says so...

 

Just in video of Mark Shepard after he found out he was quoted in SI

 

[frostbitmic]

Watching Allen on the sidelines pumping up his defense last week showed his leadership. By playing, he'll learn a lot more about reading a defense than he would holding a clipboard. Having a vet to help him would've been huge this year and IMO, more valuable than a 5th round draft choice and extra ST player.

 

Considering he probably has the worst line and WR corps in the league will hold him back this year, but IF they get him some blocking and receivers that can separate and catch next year, watch out. The sky can be the limit with this kid, may the schwartz be with him.

[billsfan1959]

40 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Did I really need to mention more than the one the article mentions? 

 

You don't watch football enough to know how many QBs the Cleveland Browns have drafted in the first round in their history to see that *nearly all of them have ended up on the scrap heap? Really? The entire league is littered with failed QBs that went to bad teams...oldmanfan...

 

 

The league Is littered with failures at every position. You have no way on earth of knowing whether any of these failed quarterbacks would have been successful on good teams. It is your opinion and nothing more.

Edited September 19, 2018 by billsfan1959

[metzelaars_lives]

11 minutes ago, ProcessAccepted said:

 

Just in video of Mark Shepard after he found out he was quoted in SI

 

Ha he obviously knew he was getting quoted.  Not a coincidence that my brothers get quoted in SI articles:

 

https://www.si.com/nfl/2017/09/13/colin-kaepernick-jersey-bills-jets-game-tim-rohan

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[Nihilarian]

5 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

The league Is littered with failures at every position. You have no way on earth of knowing whether any of these failed quarterbacks would have been successful on good teams. It is your opinion and nothing more.

Wouldn't you agree that a rookie QB drafted in the first round has a much better chance at succeeding by going to a good team then say a QB going to a bad team?

 

As it looks right now Josh Allen is going to get the snot beaten out of him this year because he is being thrown to the wolves. Even his HC stated he wanted Allen to sit this year.  Lamar Jackson was drafted in the first round and he is playing sporadically on a good team and perhaps might start at some point down the road. 

 

Logic dictates to me that one looks to have a better chance to make it in the NFL as he won't be a tackling dummy this year. Has nothing to do with just my opinion. 

[Sweats]

Sink or swim, man......that’s the way you learn 

[All I Need is Hope]

I agree, not ideal by any means... thankfully, it sounds like he has Jordan Palmer to lean on.  He also seems mentally really tough and smart, so, hopefully he continues to progress and realizes that the team has resources next year to greatly improve (assuming they don't f it up).

[Nihilarian]

1 hour ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Well, if you draw up a situation for ANY rookie QB to come into this is not a place that screams "mold a young QB"

 

-No vet QB on roster to help in film room

-Culley the QB coach that specializes in WRs

-Daboll no track record of developing a QB

-Horrible oline in front of him

-Not good weapons around him

-Defense minded Head Coach

 

I do think however Allen is going to be a good one. One thing I think works in his favor is he's playing the Chargers, Vikings and other top defenses right away. Getting his feet wet against a tsunami so to speak.

 

2nd half of the year I can really see him slow the game down against the "middle of the pack" defenses and start to shine.

Well said and so true.

 

And hopefully he survives that long...

 

It really is a sad state that Allen is currently in as I can't think of another NFL QB becoming successful after starting for such a bad team. The only bright spot on offense this year is McCoy and the team can't seem to get the run game working. 

 

If Allen fails at the end of the season most Bills fans will probably say he was never good to begin with...

[Tatonka68]

Even under these poor conditions WHEN Allen starts gaming the doubters will have to shut up. They cannot say he looks good because of the supporting cast. LOL!!

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Tatonka68

[billsfan1959]

7 minutes ago, Nihilarian said:

Wouldn't you agree that a rookie QB drafted in the first round has a much better chance at succeeding by going to a good team then say a QB going to a bad team?

 

As it looks right now Josh Allen is going to get the snot beaten out of him this year because he is being thrown to the wolves. Even his HC stated he wanted Allen to sit this year.  Lamar Jackson was drafted in the first round and he is playing sporadically on a good team and perhaps might start at some point down the road. 

 

Logic dictates to me that one looks to have a better chance to make it in the NFL as he won't be a tackling dummy this year. Has nothing to do with just my opinion. 

Of course any player, particularly a QB,  going to a team with better overall talent is going to have a better chance at achieving some level of success than going to a team with lesser overall talent. However, there is no empirical evidence to say any given player that failed on a bad team did so because he was on a bad team. IMO, it is a specious argument.

[starrymessenger]

1 hour ago, jr1 said:

he's a grown man. Kylian Mbappe played in the world cup final at 19

 

Mbappe just has to go with his God given athleticism. He doesn't have to deal with the many demands and complexities of playing QB in the NFL. Soccer can be a physical game, and he'll have to deal with his share of tough tackles, but he doesn't have to worry about 300 pound men with murder on their minds. The French team is also stocked full of elite players.

Taking nothing away from Mbappe. He will wind up spoken of in the same breath as Messi and Ronaldo. Incredible talent.

25 minutes ago, billsfan1959 said:

Of course any player, particularly a QB,  going to a team with better overall talent is going to have a better chance at achieving some level of success than going to a team with lesser overall talent. However, there is no empirical evidence to say any given player that failed on a bad team did so because he was on a bad team. IMO, it is a specious argument.

 

Can you think of a rookie QB with as many issues and as long a list of things to work on as Josh who started for a terrible team and succeeded. He's in a very tough spot IMO.

Edited September 19, 2018 by starrymessenger

[iinii]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

The more as time goes on the more I am starting to agree with this.......Beane has this plan of getting rid of salary and bad contracts this year but maybe we should have spent a little money and brought in a guy that we can at least have some confidence in starting while Allen sat for a year.

 

That said...the train has left the station.....he is on the Payton Manning/Troy Aikman path now

Sadly. Peyton and Troy both came from big time programs that them more prepared for the NFL. This regime is starting to eerily resemble the Gregg Williams days. Get rid of everyone that doesn’t fit either financially or mentally and rebuild. Both Williams and McBeane have reduced the team to ashes. If Josh Allen is the Phoenix then hallelujah, praise the Lord and just win baby!

[Big Curt]

2 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Yet another moron saying Tyrod “lead the Bills to the playoffs.”

 

 

If Nathan Peterman would have stayed the starter last year, would the Bills have made the playoffs?  The answer is no.  I believe Tyrod  isn't a franchise QB and had to be replaced, but the QB takes the blame when things go wrong and the credit when things go right.  The Bengals beating the Ravens was a lucky break, but the Bills still had to win to get in and they did.  The QB is the leader of the team.  That means he led them into the playoffs. 

[iinii]

2 hours ago, dave mcbride said:

Continuing a point: Kelly finished 8th in the league in passer rating and 5th in TD passes in his first season: https://www.pro-football-reference.com/years/1986/passing.htm. 

Kelly also played at Miami and had a couple of years with professional talent and schemes surrounding him. 

[iinii]

2 hours ago, jr1 said:

he's a grown man. Kylian Mbappe played in the world cup final at 19

Mbappe and Josh Allen are light years apart. Different game, position, team structure, risk factors. Pelè played when he was 17. Our football is an angry and violent game. Futbol is more finesse and less brute strength to put it mildly. Mbappe played with a team of superstars. Allen is teammates with Shady and not much else. 

[Over 29 years of fanhood]

3 hours ago, matter2003 said:

It's irrelevant.  People who succeed will do it regardless of the circumstances they are given.  If they have the talent, it won't matter. People who say this type of stuff are much more like Vontae Davis than Kyle Williams.  When the going gets tough they just cry and whine and pack up their things and go home.  PRetty sure Mark Sheppard is not very successful, people who are don't think like that.

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This- success is earned not given. 

[Shaw66]

3 hours ago, 416BillsFan said:

Thanks OP, good article. The story was pretty balanced, giving both sides the sitting/starting argument a fair shake.

I don't think it was balanced at all.   I think the story was written based on stats and conventional wisdom.    That is, it started for the assumption the Bills are train wreck and went on from there.   It recites all the things the Bills have done wrong in handling their QB situation, things that weren't even wrong.  Getting rid of Taylor wasn't surprising - getting a decent pick for him was surprising.  

 

What it ignores, completely, is how Allen is playing.   Who cares if they unloaded McCarron?  Who cares if there's a vet in the QB room to mentor him?  Who cares if coming out of college the "experts" said he was raw and needed work?   How about just watching what he does on the field and making a judgment about whether the guy looks like an NFL QB?

 

The fact is he DOES look like an NFL QB.   When the Bills start winning, the writers are going to say that Allen took his lumps and grew up and blah, blah, blah.  In fact, he's playing as better than Taylor and Trubisky.   He looks as good as Darnold but doesn't have his stats.   The press just doesn't want to tell that story.  

[Shaw66]

1 hour ago, Nihilarian said:

Well said and so true.

 

And hopefully he survives that long...

 

It really is a sad state that Allen is currently in as I can't think of another NFL QB becoming successful after starting for such a bad team. The only bright spot on offense this year is McCoy and the team can't seem to get the run game working. 

 

If Allen fails at the end of the season most Bills fans will probably say he was never good to begin with...

Troy Aikman and Peyton Manning and Steve Young had okay careers starting with bad teams.  

 

Allen's getting a great education playing now.   He's already showing he can handle the mental and physical pressure.   I'm confident his sacks per game will go down as the season progresses.   He'll read the defenses better, and he'll know his receivers better.   

[TheElectricCompany]

8 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Troy Aikman and Peyton Manning and Steve Young had okay careers starting with bad teams.  

 

Allen's getting a great education playing now.   He's already showing he can handle the mental and physical pressure.   I'm confident his sacks per game will go down as the season progresses.   He'll read the defenses better, and he'll know his receivers better.   

 

It has been 1.5 games. I don't think he has really showed anything concrete. Going against the Minnesota defensive buzzsaw, I'm expecting it to get ugly, but stranger things have happened. 

 

Is he both physically and mentally tough? Sure, but as I said before, he's a top 10 pick, it comes with the territory. If he was sulking on the sideline, it would be a huge red flag.

 

As the season progresses, it's doubtful there will be a significant uptick in support along the OL, or with his playmakers. The roster is what it is and I expect McD and Beane to roll with what we have. 

 

 

 

[metzelaars_lives]

41 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Hes a f****** liar lmao

 

he said he stared the table smashing tradition in in 2015 But it’s be been going on wayyyy longer than that

 

 

 

Hes a f****** liar lmao

 

he said he stared the table smashing tradition in in 2015 But it’s be been going on wayyyy longer than that

 

 

 

Hes a f****** liar lmao

 

he said he stared the table smashing tradition in in 2015 But it’s be been going on wayyyy longer than that

 

 

Link?

1 hour ago, Over 29 years of fanhood said:

^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^

This- success is earned not given. 

So who has had a more ideal situation to walk into to start their NFL career- Patrick Mahomes or Josh Allen?  If you answer Mahomes, you are necessarily not a successful person?  OK.

[Buffalo716]

1 minute ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Link?

 

Link to what? That he said he started the table smashing in 2015? It’s in the article 

 

or that it’s been going on longer? I can assure you there has been table smashing at tailgates for a lot longer than 3 years

[Shaw66]

11 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

 

It has been 1.5 games. I don't think he has really showed anything concrete. Going against the Minnesota defensive buzzsaw, I'm expecting it to get ugly, but stranger things have happened. 

 

Is he both physically and mentally tough? Sure, but as I said before, he's a top 10 pick, it comes with the territory. If he was sulking on the sideline, it would be a huge red flag.

 

As the season progresses, it's doubtful there will be a significant uptick in support along the OL, or with his playmakers. The roster is what it is and I expect McD and Beane to roll with what we have. 

 

 

 

I think he's shown a lot.

 

First, he isn't showing many rookie negatives.  No sulking, no confusion calling plays, no intimidation from a game that's too big or too fast for him.    We're not seeing any of the rookie ugliness we got from EJ or JP.  

 

Second, he's shown good command of the huddle and respect from his veteran teammates.

 

Third, he's shown none of the wild inaccuracy people seemed to think he had, and none of the overambitious gunslinger mentality he was accused of.  

 

Fourth, he's shown great presence in the pocket. 

 

Fifth, he's shown an ability to look off defenders and to find and hit receivers downfield, something Taylor struggled with.  

 

He has plenty of positives and, to date, few negatives.   

 

Yes, the roster is what it is, but I don't think it's as bad as people think.  For example, look at sacks through two games.  Now, the Bills started two totally inexperienced QBs, and inexperienced QBs always take more sacks.   So you'd expect the numbers to be bad because of that.  The Bills have taken 11 sacks, one less than Seattle, one more than Cleveland (Wilson and Taylor are perennial sack leaders).  There are plenty of teams with 6 sacks or more, and watching the games I'm amazed how MOST teams have trouble protecting the QB.   The Bills aren't a terrible outlier, and as Allen learns more, he'll take fewer sacks.  

 

Plus, it's a new offense for everyone, and Allen didn't get a lot of first team reps all summer long.   He and the receivers will develop some rapport that they don't have yet.   For example, he and Benjamin miscommunicated on the back-shoulder incompletion early in the game Sunday.   That rarely happens once two guys know each other.   Once they know each other it's also easier for the QB to avoid sacks, because he knows where to find his outlet guys.   

 

So I fully expect that the offense will improve from week to week.   I think Daboll was reluctant to throw the ball a lot on Sunday, and I think that will change, too.  As Allen learns more and gets better with his receivers, they'll let him throw it. 

 

You can be sure the whole league already knows that you can't sit on the short routes against Allen.   He keeps hitting guys over the middle 15-20 yards downfield, and that's going to continue.   Once that happens, Daboll will start popping receivers open on shorter routes.   Allen will move the sticks better then, his completion percentage will go up, and the running backs, whoever they are, won't have to worry so much about the safeties in the box.  

 

I really expect that by midseason the media will be singing a different tune about Allen.  

[wiskibreth]

If given a choice, do you think Allen would rather be starting, or waiting?  I'm thinking he'd rather be "thrown to the wolves" than riding the pine.

[metzelaars_lives]

4 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Link to what? That he said he started the table smashing in 2015? It’s in the article 

 

or that it’s been going on longer? I can assure you there has been table smashing at tailgates for a lot longer than 3 years

I know it's in the article.  Again, he is my brother.  And yes, I can provide a link to a deadspin article from 10/5/2015 that clearly shows my brothers and their tailgating crew in the video.  In the article, it certainly sounds as if the writer hadn't seen anything like it before.  I am a pretty avid Bills fan and I can tell you that that video went viral and at the time, I hadn't seen it before.  So yes, please provide a link for evidence of table smashing prior to 10/5/2015 and you win.

1 minute ago, wiskibreth said:

If given a choice, do you think Allen would rather be starting, or waiting?  I'm thinking he'd rather be "thrown to the wolves" than riding the pine.

Who said he wouldn't?

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[Buffalo716]

11 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

I know it's in the article.  Again, he is my brother.  And yes, I can provide a link to a deadspin article from 10/5/2015 that clearly shows my brothers and their tailgating crew in the video.  In the article, it certainly sounds as if the writer hadn't seen anything like it before.  I am a pretty avid Bills fan and I can tell you that that video went viral and at the time, I hadn't seen it before.  So yes, please provide a link for evidence of table smashing prior to 10/5/2015 and you win.

 

Congrats for you. 

 

And yes idc if a deadspin writer Had never seen it before.. I’ve been tailgating my whole life and I had definitely seen it before 2015

 

If your brother takes credit for it, congrats to him 

 

https://knowyourmeme.com/memes/bills-mafia?full=1

 

this article says wrestling moves started being performed in 2012 .. mentions stunners 

 

then says table slamming started gaining attention  in 2015...  says deadspin gained attention.. 

 

meaning it at least started Before. They just became aware of it

 

It hasn’t been 20 years but I definitely saw it once around 2012. I saw it every Sunday 2015

 

your brother knows how to party 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Buffalo716

[nedboy7]

4 hours ago, Jay_Fixit said:

Yet another moron saying Tyrod “lead the Bills to the playoffs.”

 

 

 

Was he not the QB?  Yeah what a moron. 

[Nihilarian]

26 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

Troy Aikman and Peyton Manning and Steve Young had okay careers starting with bad teams.  

 

Allen's getting a great education playing now.   He's already showing he can handle the mental and physical pressure.   I'm confident his sacks per game will go down as the season progresses.   He'll read the defenses better, and he'll know his receivers better.   

I've already made the case that both Aikman and Manning were on teams with far better than average offensive lines as each were only sacked 19 times, 22 times in their rookie seasons.

 

Steve Young was sacked 22 in four games in 85 and was battered around with 47 sacks in 14 games in 86. Young never did play a full season for Tampa Bay and had veteran QB Steve DeBerg to lean on for those back to back 2-14 seasons. Young then went to SF where he was coached by arguably the brightest offensive mind the league has ever known in Bill Walsh. Plus, like with Aaron Rodgers sitting behind Brett Favre for years while learning. Young sat behind Joe Montana for 5 seasons before starting in SF. 

 

 

While I agree that the best thing that can happen for a rookie QB to properly develop is to go out and actually play. However like others have outlined this particular situation for Josh Allen is he is in probably the most difficult, untenable state of affairs for a rookie QB to properly develop. 

2 hours ago, Nihilarian said:

4 hours ago, No Place To Hyde said:

Well, if you draw up a situation for ANY rookie QB to come into this is not a place that screams "mold a young QB"

 

-No vet QB on roster to help in film room

-Culley the QB coach that specializes in WRs

-Daboll no track record of developing a QB

-Horrible oline in front of him

-Not good weapons around him

-Defense minded Head Coach

-no run game so far*

If you look at how Joe Flacco developed you would see that he went to a solid playoff type team that went 11-5 and made the playoffs his rookie season. They ran the ball to help that rookie QB develop!!! 

 

Flacco had 433 passing attempts while the Ravens had 592 attempts rushing. In Flacco's second season the Ravens beat the New England Patriots IN New England by pounding the rock 52 times for 234 yards, 4 TDs. Meanwhile Flacco threw 4 of 10 for 34 yards, 1 INT. To win that playoff game against NE 33-14. 

[billsfan1959]

2 hours ago, starrymessenger said:

Can you think of a rookie QB with as many issues and as long a list of things to work on as Josh who started for a terrible team and succeeded. He's in a very tough spot IMO.

There is a very wide range of opinions about how extensive these issues are. Regardless, whatever happened to any other QB in history is irrelevant. Each athlete is unique, as is each situation that athlete is in at any given moment. IMHO, if he has the qualities (physical and mental) necessary to succeed in the NFL, then he will. 

[metzelaars_lives]

8 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Congrats for you. 

 

And yes idc if a deadspin writer Had never seen it before.. I’ve been tailgating my whole life and I had definitely seen it before 2015

 

If your brother takes credit for it, congrats to him 

Dude a) then provide a link.  Your response sounds very much like a concession.  A video on twitter, facebook, instagram- anything that shows one person going through a table at a Bills tailgate prior to 10/5/15.  And it's too late for you to go "well who cares anyway"- you're the one who brought it up, made it into an issue and then made it contentious by calling my brother a "f****** liar."  And more importantly, b) what is wrong with you?  

Edited September 19, 2018 by metzelaars_lives

[nedboy7]

Sounds like even I could develop Allen.  Where do I sign?  

Edited September 19, 2018 by nedboy7

[metzelaars_lives]

1 minute ago, nedboy7 said:

Sounds like even I could develop Allen.  Where do I sign?  

Yeah it's super easy.  You don't need coaching, an offensive line, a defense, weapons to create separation- all you need is that "can do" attitude and you'll be successful.

[Buffalo716]

5 minutes ago, metzelaars_lives said:

Dude a) then provide a link.  Your response sounds very much like a concession.  A video on twitter, facebook, instagram- anything that shows one person going through a table at a Bills tailgate prior to 10/5/15.  And it's too late for you to go "well who cares anyway"- you're the one who brought it up, made it into an issue and then made it contentious by calling my brother a "f****** liar."  And more importantly, b) what is wrong with you?  

 

Dude it’s a message board, don’t take it personal against your brother 

 

i said I saw it Before 2015. I’m sorry I said ****** liar. 

 

And I don’t have time to search through 6 years of videos. I googled it quick and there are articles of wrestling antics going back years around 2012

 

Edited September 19, 2018 by Buffalo716

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, iinii said:

Kelly also played at Miami and had a couple of years with professional talent and schemes surrounding him. 

Yeah, I know. I said that above in a prior post.

[metzelaars_lives]

2 minutes ago, Buffalo716 said:

 

Dude it’s a message board, don’t take it personal against your brother 

 

i said I saw it Before 2015. I’m sorry I said ****** liar. 

 

 

You said WAAAY before.  You didn't.  You just had never stopped to think about when it started.  It started in 2015 and then really took off in 2016.  I think we can both agree that it doesn't really matter.  Apology accepted.

[Buffalo716]

Just now, metzelaars_lives said:

You said WAAAY before.  You didn't.  You just had never stopped to think about when it started.  It started in 2015 and then really took off in 2016.  I think we can both agree that it doesn't really matter.  Apology accepted.

 

I wouldn’t have slandered your brother if I knew it was your brother 

 

im not a jerk