Low expectations - 245 passing is something to build on....

[Billsfan1972]

In 2017 the Bills had 3 games with more passing yards......  

 

The Bills have no receivers and we are trotting out a rookie.

 

So after a decade of the Bills refusing to play Football the way it is being played by the majority of NFL teams (i.e. with a passing game), 245 seems like 350+ to me..... 

 

An easy comparison is Jared Goff and the putrid rookie campaign he put up and now with weapons and coaching that emphasizes the Offense is looking pretty good.  

 

I for one was okay with what I saw and hope that there continues to be progression (though concerned with the schedule).

 

My biggest fear is an injury and the Peterman fans return on mass.... 

[Kirby Jackson]

Passing yards don’t tell me much. Personally, I’m much more concerned with TD:int, 3rd down conversions, and completion percentage mixed with a high YPA. Efficiency is way more important than the gross stats. Are you making the plays at the right time? Are you making more plays than mistakes? Are you getting chunks of yards at a time? That’s what really tells the story. 

[Billsfan1972]

I've been beaten into submission by just how bad this team is over the years. 

 

245 yards passing had me happy.

 

 

[ddaryl]

Allen was wildly inaccurate and was missing wide open receivers by not scanning the 2nd half of the field. That is what worries me the most.

 

I'll be giving this a few more weeks before I put my stamp on my expectation but IMO Allen did not look like an NFL QB. He looked like a Bills QB... But Allen's debut did not go well at all.

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

1 minute ago, ddaryl said:

Allen was wildly inaccurate and was missing wide open receivers by not scanning the 2nd half of the field. That is what worries me the most.

 

I'll be giving this a few more weeks before I put my stamp on my expectation but IMO Allen did not look like an NFL QB. He looked like a Bills QB... But Allen's debut did not go well at all.

 

 

SMH

 

[Kirby Jackson]

Just now, ddaryl said:

Allen was wildly inaccurate and was missing wide open receivers by not scanning the 2nd half of the field. That is what worries me the most.

 

I'll be giving this a few more weeks before I put my stamp on my expectation but IMO Allen did not look like an NFL QB. He looked like a Bills QB... But Allen's debut did not go well at all.

 

That’s just not true at all. That’s digging in because he wasn’t the guy that you wanted. He looked like other good young QBs do in their first start. There was a lot of positives mixed with a few mistakes. The 2 biggest mistakes were the 2nd INT and the last sack by James (that was his responsibility). He stood tall in the pocket, made plays with his feet and arm and moved the team some. He looked like the guy that we are hoping for. Obviously, he’s nowhere near a finished product and also plays with THE worst talent in the league. It’s going to take longer than “a few more weeks” but if you didn’t leave that game encouraged it’s because you didn’t go in with an open mind. 

[ddaryl]

3 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

SMH

 

 

please elaborate instead of a shake my head cause I have absolutely no idea if you are agreeing with me or attempting to call me out for an opinion.

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, ddaryl said:

Allen was wildly inaccurate and was missing wide open receivers by not scanning the 2nd half of the field. That is what worries me the most.

 

I'll be giving this a few more weeks before I put my stamp on my expectation but IMO Allen did not look like an NFL QB. He looked like a Bills QB... But Allen's debut did not go well at all.

 

Really????  I guess I was wearing rose coloured glasses as it was not Peterman, wasn't embarrassing and over 200 yards passing.......

 

Compare this to Goff in 2016 when he finally started in November.....

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3046779/jared-goff

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s just not true at all. That’s digging in because he wasn’t the guy that you wanted. He looked like other good young QBs do in their first start. There was a lot of positives mixed with a few mistakes. The 2 biggest mistakes were the 2nd INT and the last sack by James (that was his responsibility). He stood tall in the pocket, made plays with his feet and arm and moved the team some. He looked like the guy that we are hoping for. Obviously, he’s nowhere near a finished product and also plays with THE worst talent in the league. It’s going to take longer than “a few more weeks” but if you didn’t leave that game encouraged it’s because you didn’t go in with an open mind. 

 

His numbers were pretty close to Darnold's this week. Wonder if ddaryl believes Darnold will be a bust, too.

 

Just now, ddaryl said:

 

please elaborate instead of a shake my head cause I have absolutely no idea if you are agreeing with me or attempting to call me out for an opinion.

 

His numbers were pretty close to Darnold's this week against much tougher competition. Think Darnold's gonna be a bust too or nah?

 

[ddaryl]

7 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

That’s just not true at all. That’s digging in because he wasn’t the guy that you wanted. He looked like other good young QBs do in their first start. There was a lot of positives mixed with a few mistakes. The 2 biggest mistakes were the 2nd INT and the last sack by James (that was his responsibility). He stood tall in the pocket, made plays with his feet and arm and moved the team some. He looked like the guy that we are hoping for. Obviously, he’s nowhere near a finished product and also plays with THE worst talent in the league. It’s going to take longer than “a few more weeks” but if you didn’t leave that game encouraged it’s because you didn’t go in with an open mind. 

 

 

Calling it the way I saw it. He made plays with his feet because he was unable to find open WR's or make that quick D dissection at the line and find the WR with quick throw. Maybe this gets better but, as of his 1st start it was subpar.

He threw a few lame ducks, and had some inaccurate passes  and I just wasn't happy with his performance. You can try to cling to a few positives but overall I did not see anything to get overly excited for in his debut.. 

 

I hope he gets better but don't start this Not my guy BS I jumped on the Allen train when  drafted him.. 

6 minutes ago, joesixpack said:

 

His numbers were pretty close to Darnold's this week. Wonder if ddaryl believes Darnold will be a bust, too.

 

 

His numbers were pretty close to Darnold's this week against much tougher competition. Think Darnold's gonna be a bust too or nah?

 

 

I don't care about Darnold Rosen or any other QB in the entire league. I only care about Allen and what I saw with my own 2 eyes. He did not look good passing the football IMO

 

again not throwing in the towel but was not thrilled with his debut

6 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Really????  I guess I was wearing rose coloured glasses as it was not Peterman, wasn't embarrassing and over 200 yards passing.......

 

Compare this to Goff in 2016 when he finally started in November.....

 

http://www.espn.com/nfl/player/stats/_/id/3046779/jared-goff

 

 

I don't care about any other QB in this entire league. Allen did not look that good in my eyes. Lots of bad throws and not scanning the entire field. Can't think of any quick throws he made to beat the blitz or rush besides a couple of swing screens 

 

 

 

Again I don't hate Allen I just hope he gets a lot better quickly... 

Edited September 17, 2018 by ddaryl

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

I don't care about Darnold Rosen or any other QB in the entire league. I only care about Allen and what I saw with my own 2 eyes.

 

Color me skeptical, but I'm not sold on this statement.

 

[Kirby Jackson]

2 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

Calling it the way I saw it. He made plays with his feet because he was unable to find open WR's or make that quick D dissection at the line and find the WR with quick throw. Maybe this gets better but, as of his 1st start it was subpar.

He threw a few lame ducks, and had some inaccurate passes  and I just wasn't happy with his performance. You can try to cling to a few positives but overall I did not see anything to get overly excited for in his debut.. 

 

 

He’s never going to be the “quick throw” guy. That’s Peterman. Allen is going to play like Ben or Stafford. He’s going to hang as long as he can and try to push the ball down the field. He’s never going to be the 90% completion guy. He’s going to make big plays.

[ddaryl]

Just now, Kirby Jackson said:

He’s never going to be the “quick throw” guy. That’s Peterman. Allen is going to play like Ben or Stafford. He’s going to hang as long as he can and try to push the ball down the field. He’s never going to be the 90% completion guy. He’s going to make big plays.

 

 

We have a porous OL so he has to be. In the NFL the quick pass is a big part of keeping D's honest... If you don't have that then you greatly reduced your ability to be an NFL QB.  You can not tell me that Ben or Stafford never had the quick slant in their repertoire 

 

 

[Foxx]

as i said in one of Kirby's threads, there was some good and some bad yesterday. yes there were some encouraging signs, such as him standing tall in the pocket, displaying a good pocket presence. knowing when to step up, when to move laterally, just a good general awareness of the people around him. the ability to keep his eyes down field while all the chaos of pocket mechanics are going on around him is excellent for a rook in his first start. he displayed his fantastic arm strength and an ability to put some mustard on the ball.

 

there were also some concerning aspects. including touch on short passes, ball placement, not seeing the entire field  and a general lack of knowing where the soft spot in the D should be. the second interception was just a bad pass all the way around, he should not have thrown that pass unless it was over the head of the receiver. i don't know if it was bad footwork or what but you can't make those passes.

 

of course the negatives in his game should be correctable, the question is, will they get corrected. these concerns are ones that he had coming out of college, though he has worked hard to correct them and it does appear that he is making progress. playing with sub-par talent around him isn't the best way to advance that learning curve but if he is going to be good, he will make those advances regardless, albeit just with a few more growing pains.

 

it is simply too early to say one way or the other with any sort of real definite knowing where he will shake out. there are encouraging signs and concerns but until a better picture is formed, all we can do is watch at this point and hope he turns into what we all hope he will.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Foxx

[MAJBobby]

53 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

In 2017 the Bills had 3 games with more passing yards......  

 

The Bills have no receivers and we are trotting out a rookie.

 

So after a decade of the Bills refusing to play Football the way it is being played by the majority of NFL teams (i.e. with a passing game), 245 seems like 350+ to me..... 

 

An easy comparison is Jared Goff and the putrid rookie campaign he put up and now with weapons and coaching that emphasizes the Offense is looking pretty good.  

 

I for one was okay with what I saw and hope that there continues to be progression (though concerned with the schedule).

 

My biggest fear is an injury and the Peterman fans return on mass.... 

Man Sammy on his 5th year option and Woods at a little more than what they are playing Kerley, Holmes and Coleman (not to play) sure would look nice now, if ONLY they were not Whaley guys

[Captain Hindsight]

I thought he looked great. His throw to Holmes after breaking out of a sack that went off his fingertips was beautiful. Not many QBs attempt that throw much less complete it 

[Ramza86]

5 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

We have a porous OL so he has to be. In the NFL the quick pass is a big part of keeping D's honest... If you don't have that then you greatly reduced your ability to be an NFL QB.  You can not tell me that Ben or Stafford never had the quick slant in their repertoire 

 

 

 

Im sure Josh would love to throw a quick slant to AB, Juju, Golden Tate, Kenny Gollady.

 

We have Zay Jones and Kelvin Benjamin.....

[skibum]

I watched the "every throw Josh Allen made" video, and it was not pretty at all. He got lucky on the long Zay Jones throw, and a lot of his yards came on screen passes, one big one coming in garbage time. The rest of it looked really rough:

- Every throw was a laser beam, which is not always called for

- Placement did not allow for run after the catch; did not hit guys in stride really at all

- Even worse, placement often put receiver in the path of a Safety running full speed into his chest 

- Several balls that he was lucky were not picked off, including the aforementioned bomb to ZJ. 

 

I still believe he has it in him to be good to great, but I think the critics were right - this young fella is RAW. 

[Billsfan1972]

3 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

Man Sammy on his 5th year option and Woods at a little more than what they are playing Kerley, Holmes and Coleman (not to play) sure would look nice now, if ONLY they were not Whaley guys

Don't remind me......  Oh and offense is no big deal according to McDermott.....

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

Man Sammy on his 5th year option and Woods at a little more than what they are playing Kerley, Holmes and Coleman (not to play) sure would look nice now, if ONLY they were not Whaley guys

 

So wait - you're blaming beane for woods?  

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

So wait - you're blaming beane for woods?  

If he gets credit for Hyde and Poyer and McDs draft ABSOLUTELY this regime passed on re-signing Woods

[1st Ammendment NoMas]

Here's what I saw. JA sailed a few throws (5-6) off target. Most of those throws came from being off-base. This is the thing Josh has been working on since training camp. Keeping his base and throwing with his body and not just his arm. 

Under duress, I thought he did a decent job of stepping into the pocket, finding space, looking downfield and making throws. A few times, the pressure caused him to wing it on arm and we saw the results. I think he will look at the game film and learn from it. 

Overall, I was pretty impressed with his progress and ability to not freak out when things break down all around him. From what other players said, he acted like a leader and took control of the offense. What more can we ask for out of a first start under such conditions with a defense giving up 28 points before he took a piss.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

Just now, MAJBobby said:

If he gets credit for Hyde and Poyer and McDs draft ABSOLUTELY this regime passed on re-signing Woods

 

I don't give him credit for any of it.  McD/Whaley got a couple good pickups on Defense and vastly underrated the need for offensive talent.  With taking the dead money on the chin this year - we had limited money available. 

 

They really need a solid draft in 2019 or this won't really matter though.  Back to back bad years will not inspire confidence even if you ended the drought.  

 

Only thing i respect is getting the QB in 2018.  Whaley was full of excuses, they went up and did it.  Whether he's the right one or not.

[MAJBobby]

28 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

Allen was wildly inaccurate and was missing wide open receivers by not scanning the 2nd half of the field. That is what worries me the most.

 

I'll be giving this a few more weeks before I put my stamp on my expectation but IMO Allen did not look like an NFL QB. He looked like a Bills QB... But Allen's debut did not go well at all.

 

He did what Daboll told him to I think, the entire game was half field reads but the looks of it.

 

Allen Played as expected in his first start.  He didnt puke on himself, and wont be the story going into next week that he didnt look the part.  And when you have one of the better pass rushers in the game come out and say he is going to be a very good QB that is telling.

1 minute ago, dneveu said:

 

I don't give him credit for any of it.  McD/Whaley got a couple good pickups on Defense and vastly underrated the need for offensive talent.  With taking the dead money on the chin this year - we had limited money available. 

 

They really need a solid draft in 2019 or this won't really matter though.  Back to back bad years will not inspire confidence even if you ended the drought.  

 

Only thing i respect is getting the QB in 2018.  Whaley was full of excuses, they went up and did it.  Whether he's the right one or not.

Could have got it the year before and accelerated this entire year BUT McD wanted to wait.  So because of that he will be tied to passing on Mahomes and Watson.  That puts that much more pressure on Allen pick being right. 

[Rc2catch]

Here’s what I took from the game, and all I needed to see. He looked like he belongs, and he had command of the team. The little pep talk on the sideline firing up the defense was excellent and he had good command of the huddle. I expected lots of delays of game and confusion from him. But he seemed on point. 

He’s a quarterback and been throwing footballs basically his entire adult life if not longer so I’m not as worried about the throws as some. I chalk a lot of it up to first game jitters and constant pressure.

He was inaccurate in college and we knew what we were getting. Good thing is he can make all the throws needed and he can move around. Silly interception towards the end of the game but it was kinda cool to watching him drag Ingram a couple yards and still make a throw. For the love of god though josh SLIDE... He is gonna get murdered one day if he don’t start sliding. 

[Kirby Jackson]

13 minutes ago, ddaryl said:

 

 

We have a porous OL so he has to be. In the NFL the quick pass is a big part of keeping D's honest... If you don't have that then you greatly reduced your ability to be an NFL QB.  You can not tell me that Ben or Stafford never had the quick slant in their repertoire 

 

 

That’s not what their offense is based on though. They try to push the ball down the field. That’s what Allen will be. We all agree that the OL sucks. That will take some time. 

[HappyDays]

26 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He’s never going to be the “quick throw” guy. That’s Peterman. Allen is going to play like Ben or Stafford. He’s going to hang as long as he can and try to push the ball down the field. He’s never going to be the 90% completion guy. He’s going to make big plays.

 

He has to be able to do both. Big plays aren't going to open up on blitzes. He has to learn to find the safe read and throw them the ball before the pressure gets there. If he's doing that more as the season goes on that will show progress. Teams will blitz him like crazy until he shows he can beat it.

[row_33]

1 hour ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Passing yards don’t tell me much. Personally, I’m much more concerned with TD:int, 3rd down conversions, and completion percentage mixed with a high YPA. Efficiency is way more important than the gross stats. Are you making the plays at the right time? Are you making more plays than mistakes? Are you getting chunks of yards at a time? That’s what really tells the story. 

 

after the 3rd TD the Chargers went into Prevent Laughing Garbagetime easy road win mode

 

Still it was nice the BIlls had some fight in them for the second half

 

 

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

4 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

He did what Daboll told him to I think, the entire game was half field reads but the looks of it.

 

Allen Played as expected in his first start.  He didnt puke on himself, and wont be the story going into next week that he didnt look the part.  And when you have one of the better pass rushers in the game come out and say he is going to be a very good QB that is telling.

Could have got it the year before and accelerated this entire year BUT McD wanted to wait.  So because of that he will be tied to passing on Mahomes and Watson.  That puts that much more pressure on Allen pick being right. 

 

From a receiver perspective we have really bungled FA and the draft. The benjamin trade looks bad as he just... well kind of sucks.  Seems disinterested and full of himself.  Zay just hasn't been what we need him to be, and it looks worse seeing JuJu continue to make plays.  

 

Watkins needed a change of scenery - problems with his media perception here, and just the fact that he was overdrafted and didn't live up to that etc. Goodwin was always hurt so i don't see that as a loss at the time.  

 

Seeing Woods thrive is more bothersome... he really is like a perfect #2 receiver (Not big, not a RZ guy, but a great blocker, route runner - and you can line him up anywhere) and his numbers with Tyrod made him look expendable.  I'd love to also have Hogan here - but that one is solely on Whaley.  We tagged Glenn and had no cap room so we couldn't match his offer sheet.  Had we put a 2nd round tender on him we may have been like right up against the cap too so we risked it and lost a solid player for nothing.

[26CornerBlitz]

3 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He has to be able to do both. Big plays aren't going to open up on blitzes. He has to learn to find the safe read and throw them the ball before the pressure gets there. If he's doing that more as the season goes on that will show progress. Teams will blitz him like crazy until he shows he can beat it.

 

They very well can with pre-snap diagnoses that identifies where the pressure is coming from and which receiver becomes dangerous on a hot route.  Allen has miles to go with such recognition that will hopefully improve with experience. 

Edited September 17, 2018 by 26CornerBlitz

[row_33]

9 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The very well can with pre-snap diagnoses that identifies where the pressure is coming from and which receiver becomes dangerous on a hot route.  Allen has miles to go with such recognition that will hopefully improve with experience. 

 

i'm on board with some optimism for this, when he can perform starting with the first series it will be a major accomplishment, will take time

 

Not like I'm abandoning this team after 43 years...

 

 

[Dablitzkrieg]

My thoughts are that Allen CAN be a franchise QB.  Man, he is a big guy and dragged a DE 5 yards on his back.  I am concerned that he is not trusting what he is seeing and holding onto the ball, but that can be coached I believe.  I think he has a very bright future.  Even though I know this season is development only, it is exciting to seethe promise he has.

[zow2]

My take on Josh,

 

The good:  He looked the part, didn't seem too overwhelmed, good leadership, the guys like him... has the arm, hit a few passes. and he made a few nice runs. 

 

The Bad:  Held on to the ball way way too long.  made the O-line look poor when they actually held up on many occasions.  Sailed a few passes.  Did not release the ball fast in that very short window when guys were breaking open.  While the runs gave the team a spark, if he continues to take on guys, the Linebackers on the other teams are gonna light his a$$ up.  He won't last doing that.  Josh just needs to run out of bounds or slide quickly. 

[MAJBobby]

3 minutes ago, dneveu said:

 

From a receiver perspective we have really bungled FA and the draft. The benjamin trade looks bad as he just... well kind of sucks.  Seems disinterested and full of himself.  Zay just hasn't been what we need him to be, and it looks worse seeing JuJu continue to make plays.  

 

Watkins needed a change of scenery - problems with his media perception here, and just the fact that he was overdrafted and didn't live up to that etc. Goodwin was always hurt so i don't see that as a loss at the time.  

 

Seeing Woods thrive is more bothersome... he really is like a perfect #2 receiver (Not big, not a RZ guy, but a great blocker, route runner - and you can line him up anywhere) and his numbers with Tyrod made him look expendable.  I'd love to also have Hogan here - but that one is solely on Whaley.  We tagged Glenn and had no cap room so we couldn't match his offer sheet.  Had we put a 2nd round tender on him we may have been like right up against the cap too so we risked it and lost a solid player for nothing.

 

Yep get you on Hogan.  Now they could work on the WR.  A smart FO would trade that conditional for Gordon, why because he is cheap, elite when on the field and comes with an RFA tender that if you low tender him and dont want to match because you have questions of the long term sobriety you would get a second round pick.  But I am sure they wont do that as he doesnt fit some mythical culture.

[HappyDays]

4 minutes ago, row_33 said:

 

after the 3rd TD the Chargers went into Prevent Laughing Garbagetime easy road win mode

 

Still it was nice the BIlls had some fight in them for the second half

 

 

 

When Ivory scored a TD to put us within 2 scores 4 minutes into the 3rd quarter, and the Chargers next drive was a 3 and out, they were not laughing or thinking of playing prevent defense.

[Foxx]

11 minutes ago, dneveu said:

... We tagged Glenn and had no cap room so we couldn't match his offer sheet.  Had we put a 2nd round tender on him we may have been like right up against the cap too so we risked it and lost a solid player for nothing.

i think you mis-typed here. Glenn was traded.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Foxx

[hondo in seattle]

Forget stats.  Eye test matters.  My eyes say our OL sucks in both the passing and running game.  Our WRs have trouble gaining separation.  And there were times Josh Allen looked like a real NFL QB.  Other times he looked panicky and/or threw errant balls.  His mistakes/flaws could be correctable rookie stuff, but I'm not sure.  

 

And I like my uncertainty.  It means I think there's a chance Allen evolves into something good.  I have hope - the life blood of fans.  

[Kirby Jackson]

35 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

He has to be able to do both. Big plays aren't going to open up on blitzes. He has to learn to find the safe read and throw them the ball before the pressure gets there. If he's doing that more as the season goes on that will show progress. Teams will blitz him like crazy until he shows he can beat it.

He has to have guys running those patterns. There wasn’t a lot of that. They threw mostly swing passes instead of quick slants and bubble screens. The goal with Allen is going to be to push the ball down the field to open up the running game and the underneath stuff. That’s why Peterman can’t play in this league. Everything happens within 10 yards of the LOS. If Allen can make those plays the whole playbook opens up.

Edited September 17, 2018 by Kirby Jackson

[Rc2catch]

7 minutes ago, MAJBobby said:

 

Yep get you on Hogan.  Now they could work on the WR.  A smart FO would trade that conditional for Gordon, why because he is cheap, elite when on the field and comes with an RFA tender that if you low tender him and dont want to match because you have questions of the long term sobriety you would get a second round pick.  But I am sure they wont do that as he doesnt fit some mythical culture.

I was really against Gordon last week, my tune has changed after yesterday. 

I do think they’ll call, but I also think they won’t give up the 3rd rounder it’ll probably take to get him after the Coleman debacle.

Gordon is what 750k this year? Nobody is gonna come that cheap with that much talent. Only issue I see is we get roasted even more if we drop a 3rd rounder for him and he screws up fast and gets suspended forever. 

But they need his dynamic playmaking for sure 

[row_33]

17 minutes ago, HappyDays said:

 

When Ivory scored a TD to put us within 2 scores 4 minutes into the 3rd quarter, and the Chargers next drive was a 3 and out, they were not laughing or thinking of playing prevent defense.

 

it sometimes backfires to go into prevent D and laugh in the second quarter, for about 60 seconds of real time they thought they might have to try again