McBeane's way of rebuilding makes no sense

[Jpsredemption]

Your right it makes no sense. 

 

Cut talented players in favor of culture guys.

 

Not a recipe for success.

[Batman1876]

1 minute ago, Jpsredemption said:

Your right it makes no sense. 

 

Cut talented players in favor of culture guys.

 

Not a recipe for success.

What talented players were cut?

 

[Doc]

11 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

QB is BY FAR the most important position on the field.  When you see an opportunity to get a franchise QB, you have to take it.

 

MLB is a distant second, but it's still the second most important position on the field.   At the end of the second round, you get a Preston Brown.  In the middle of the first round you get a Smith, an Edmunds, a Keuchle.  

 

Those were smart team-building moves.  

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

[John from Riverside]

3 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

Teller....which they did

 

 

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

The line is in trouble, I think they knew that and chose to stop gap it this year, I'd expect it to be addressed this off season. I think there was no way Cogs would be playing now for us anyway, he'd be suspended because he has pending charges. 

The mental health issues he had were under control while he was with the team and playing football. When he left and was not attached to any team he became unhinged. While he was us and was anchored by the game he was functioning reasonably well. Without question he was our best blocker in the unit. When he left he was replaced by one of the worst blockers in the league. When all is said and done getting backups to be starters is a fool proof way to undercut your offense to perform at even a mediocre level. The outcome was predictable. And most football commentators outside of this organization recognized it before the season started. What was obvious to the outside was not so obvious to the inside. 

[Batman1876]

Just now, Doc said:

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

The only Gs and Cs off the board between our round 3 pick and our Wyattpick were , Mason Cole, Brian Allen, Cole Maddison and Scott Queensburry. Not sure if any of those guys were worth it.

Just now, JohnC said:

The mental health issues he had were under control while he was with the team and playing football. When he left and was not attached to any team he became unhinged. While he was us and was anchored by the game he was functioning reasonably well. Without question he was our best blocker in the unit. When he left he was replaced by one of the worst blockers in the league. When all is said and done getting backups to be starters is a fool proof way to undercut your offense to perform at even a mediocre level. The outcome was predictable. And most football commentators outside of this organization recognized it before the season started. What was obvious to the outside was not so obvious to the inside. 

I think his father passing away was going to set him off regardless. 

[Koko78]

5 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

Seems McBeane is intent on gutting this roster of players from the Whaley regime and doing a full blown rebuild. I have no problems with doing a rebuild, but the way they are doing it makes absolutely no sense. Moving up and wasting draft picks on two players in the first round this past year was not a smart move. If the Bills are going to be at the top of the draft in 2019, then they could have drafted their QB of the future then instead of what they gave up for Allen. It's too early to tell if Allen and Edmunds will pan out. Both guys have the physical size and traits to be very successful. I am glad that McBeane is trying to address the QB position, because it's been neglected for way too long. Maybe McBeane liked the QB's in this draft class better than the 2019 draft class...who knows. I just think it's not a smart move to use up all these picks when there are so many holes to fill on the team. O-linemen take time to develop, so I think it would have been good for the Bills to use some of this draft capital and address the O-line early. I think building up the lines on both side of the ball first should be a teams priority.

 

So using draft picks to get what they think is a stud QB and a stud MLB for the next 10-15 years doesn't make sense to you? Here's a clue: You never know what you're getting in the draft. Waiting until next year is stupid if you have the ammo to get guys you like this year. You know, ammo to move around that they aren't going to have in 2019.

[Bill from NYC]

23 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

 

MLB is a distant second, but it's still the second most important position on the field.   At the end of the second round, you get a Preston Brown.  In the middle of the first round you get a Smith, an Edmunds, a Keuchle.  

 

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

[JohnC]

9 minutes ago, Batman1876 said:

The only Gs and Cs off the board between our round 3 pick and our Wyattpick were , Mason Cole, Brian Allen, Cole Maddison and Scott Queensburry. Not sure if any of those guys were worth it.

I think his father passing away was going to set him off regardless. 

The Bills let Incognito go before his father passed away. That indicates that they were very willing to replace him with a cheaper and  lesser talent. The player who replaced him was Ducasse. A good case can be made that he should no longer be in the league let alone be a backup. Bringing in players who are serviceable is understandable as a shot term strategy. Bringing in players who are at best backups and starting them is a recipe for disaster. As the inevitable injuries occur the situation is not going to get better. 

[BoccesOnTransit]

When you have an opportunity to select your quarterback you take it. At the expense of the rest of the team. This is the lesson that we finally got right after so many years. This year will probably be a waste, but now we have our central piece to build around.

 

I'm ok if we go 0-16 this year if it means setting us up for the next 10 years.

5 hours ago, Thurman#1 said:

Getting a QB high was an absolute necessity. Far from making no sense, it was the only move that did make any sense, except maybe bringing in Alex Smith or Kirk Cousins.

 

Calling it a waste is missing the point. There are very very few ways to bring in a guy with a legitimate shot at being a franchise guy. When you have one of those chances you have to go for it even if it's expensive. They had to get a guy who might grow to become the franchise QB we've needed for so long. Unless they wanted our run of prolonged mediocrity/badness to continue.

 

And yeah, OLs take time to develop. So do QBs. But it's a hell of a lot easier to draft a good OL even if you're winning than it is to draft a good
QB.

 

And yes, moving up delayed filling the holes on the roster.

 

It's worth it. Same as in house construction, building a good strong, stable foundation delays the building of the walls and the installation of the plumbing and everything else, really. But it's necessary to build that strong foundation regardless of the delay. Same thing here. It's necessary to bring in a legitimate potential QB because it's almost impossible to get one when you have a good enough roster elsewhere to consistently win eight or nine games. You never get the chance to draft a potential franchise guy. This is the only way to get it done, and also the smart way.

 

If we're rebuilding as you say (I'm not sure I agree, but put that aside), then you have to keep understanding what a rebuild is. It's not something you do if you want to have a great chance to win the year you trade up and draft your QB. You are sacrificing the short term for the long term. Which is a great idea if the long term is very successful, and true rebuilds increase the chances of extreme success.

 

What was your prediction for the year? Did you think we'd win eight or nine or ten games? People who predicted a lot of wins this year weren't quite understanding how long it takes to build consistent success when you're switching schemes and the regime before you put you in awful salary cap shape.

Best comment I've seen in a while. Thank you.

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

I understand your well stated point but I disagree with it as it applies to Edmunds. In reality because of his length and athleticism he is very much a coverage backer. Edmunds is not an old school bruiser comparable to the LBers you alluded to. He is a new age LBer who roams all over the field. In some respect he is a hybrid safety/LB. McBeane were trying to find a MLB who fit the model of Kueckley. In my estimation Edmunds was not only a worthy selection but in the not too distant future he will be an anchor player for our defense. 

[Shaw66]

20 minutes ago, Doc said:

 

I agree.  Meaning the highest they pick an OL is the mid-4th.  Was there anyone worth taking there (or later)?

I don't know.   I don't even know how good the guys are who get drafted in the first round!.

 

And I don't disagree with the notion that they probably should have gone O line instead of Harrison Philips.   There was no question the o line would need help when Woods retired.  

 

I think what happened is that they were true to their board.   I think they had Allen in the top 5, probably the #1 or #2 QB.   So they moved up for him.  Then, as Beane described it, they saw Edmunds sitting there, and they probably had him in their top 10, so moving up for him made sense.

 

Then they got to the third round, and there was Phillips.  I'm guessing they had him as a solid second round guy, and he looked like too much value to pass up.  So although they wanted oline, Phillips was the highest value.   From today's vantage point, a good guard at that spot would have had more impact on the team in 2018 than Philips.   But they preach staying true to the board.  

 

I am baffled, however, that they didn't get some journeyman help in free agency.   There must have been some guy out there with an attitude, a guy who can hold his ground.  

 

Still, I think they can be okay.  Get Allen on the field, get him on the move to give him time and let him sling it.   Once he starts connecting on passes, the o line play gets easier, both in pass blocking and the run game.  

 

I expect the Bills to be a lot better in a month than they were on Sunday.   Of course, that's not saying a whole lot, because they couldn't have been much worse.  

[Bill from NYC]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

I understand your well stated point but I disagree with it as it applies to Edmunds. In reality because of his length and athleticism he is very much a coverage backer. Edmunds is not an old school bruiser comparable to the LBers you alluded to. He is a new age LBer who roams all over the field. In some respect he is a hybrid safety/LB. McBeane were trying to find a MLB who fit the model of Kueckley. In my estimation Edmunds was not only a worthy selection but in the not too distant future he will be an anchor player for our defense. 

You know, looking at him, he resembles a pass rushing OLB/Hybrid DE than a MLB, at least he did to me.

 

He looks like a stud and I obviously do hope that he does pan out. I am not criticizing this selection at all John. I'm pissed at McDermott for other glaringly obvious reasons.

[Shaw66]

11 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

Yes, it's a passing league.  Edmunds played every down on Sunday.  Why?  Because he's more like a big safety than like a Dick Butkus.   A three down middle linebacker is a really valuable guy.   I wasn't high on his game on Sunday, but you can see why Edmunds can be great.   His decision making isn't there yet, but when he makes the right decision in pass coverage, he blankets his receiver.   He can run with the running backs, he's as big as Gronk.  

 

Edmunds is built to be a middle linebacker in the modern NFL.

 

That's a really valuable guy to have on the field.   

[reddogblitz]

8 minutes ago, BoccesOnTransit said:

People who predicted a lot of wins this year weren't quite understanding how long it takes to build consistent success when you're switching schemes and the regime before you put you in awful salary cap shape.

 

At least a decent part of this is their own fault.  We are spending cap space on guys that aren't even on the team anymore like Hotrod and Dareus yet the positions they play are huge holes.  Would seem to make more sense to pay them and get their services as opposed to paying them and not.

[Shaw66]

3 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

You know, looking at him, he resembles a pass rushing OLB/Hybrid DE than a MLB, at least he did to me.

 

He looks like a stud and I obviously do hope that he does pan out. I am not criticizing this selection at all John. I'm pissed at McDermott for other glaringly obvious reasons.

Yes, he does LOOK like an OLB/hybrid DE, but he runs like a safety.   Or, he looks like a Jimmy Graham-type TE.   He's just special physically, and if he learns the game, he will be an All-Pro.   

 

 

[oldmanfan]

18 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

With the taking away of headshots the middle of the field will be exploited in the passing game.  Edmunds helps there.

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

At least a decent part of this is their own fault.  We are spending cap space on guys that aren't even on the team anymore like Hotrod and Dareus yet the positions they play are huge holes.  Would seem to make more sense to pay them and get their services as opposed to paying them and not.

Except that Dareus was dogging it.  

[Shaw66]

1 minute ago, reddogblitz said:

 

At least a decent part of this is their own fault.  We are spending cap space on guys that aren't even on the team anymore like Hotrod and Dareus yet the positions they play are huge holes.  Would seem to make more sense to pay them and get their services as opposed to paying them and not.

You'd think so, but that would be ignoring how important character is to McDermott.   He's telling ALL of his guys that they have to be 100% into continuous improvement, all day, every day.   If he'd kept Dareus, he would have been saying to his team, "well, the rest of you guys have to be 100% into this, but Marcell is so good that he doesn't have to."   McDermott can't say that and build the team culture he wants.

[BringBackOrton]

5 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

Seems McBeane is intent on gutting this roster of players from the Whaley regime and doing a full blown rebuild. I have no problems with doing a rebuild, but the way they are doing it makes absolutely no sense. Moving up and wasting draft picks on two players in the first round this past year was not a smart move. If the Bills are going to be at the top of the draft in 2019, then they could have drafted their QB of the future then instead of what they gave up for Allen. It's too early to tell if Allen and Edmunds will pan out. Both guys have the physical size and traits to be very successful. I am glad that McBeane is trying to address the QB position, because it's been neglected for way too long. Maybe McBeane liked the QB's in this draft class better than the 2019 draft class...who knows. I just think it's not a smart move to use up all these picks when there are so many holes to fill on the team. O-linemen take time to develop, so I think it would have been good for the Bills to use some of this draft capital and address the O-line early. I think building up the lines on both side of the ball first should be a teams priority.

 

It seems McBeane's FA pick ups/trades have been more misses than hits. Now, if these players McBeane are signing are just "stop-gap" players, then that's one thing, but if they're being counted on to be impact players, then McBeane has really screwed up. Vontae Davis, Star Lotulelei, Trent Murphy, Kelvin Benjamin, Corey Coleman, Jordan Matthews...not an impressive list of players. Seems McBeane was hoping somebody on the D-line would be free to get to the QB with Lotulelei clogging up the middle, but so far this preseason and in Week 1, it hasn't come to fruition. If Lotulelei doesn't pan out, that could be more dead cap money if he gets cut or traded. 

This is basically a fact, so then it does make sense.

27 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

I respectfully, but vehemently disagree.

 

I don't even think that in today's game MLB is the 4th most important position. 

 

In the old days, running was far more important than it is now. You couldn't run on some of these great MLBs Shaw. Larry Czonka called Willie Lanier a "grizzly bear with a brain." Dick Butkis would injure people. Jack Lambert, Mike Curtis, Ray Lewis…..the list goes on and on.

Today, MLBs spend the bulk of their time in coverage. I LOVE a good ground game but right now it is of less importance.

 

Imo, OTs and pass rushing DEs are worth far more than MLBs. Even guards are being drafted earlier these days. Guys are going to break my shoes for saying this (oh and I totally deserve it lol) but safeties are growing in importance.

 

Now, if a MLB is GREAT, sure he will make a big difference but.....it's a passing league now.

This is exactly right.  Luke Kuechly is a great player and every team would love to have him.  But every team would rather have a Khalil Mack or Von Miller over Kuechly and it's not even close.

Edited September 11, 2018 by BringBackOrton

[billsfan89]

McBeane's rebuilding is actually the right way to do it. Get rid of bad bloated contracts, get rid of players that don't fit the system for draft picks of value, establish a new culture with high roster turnover, and go hard after getting the right young QB. The problem is that the cap situation from the Whaley years wasn't going to be fixed in 1 year and McBeane's limited free agency decisions haven't panned out. 

 

Once you get your QB and you don't have too many significant contracts you can figure out the rest. 2018 to me was always a rebuilding year, the team overachieved in 2017 (Finally the team got lucky one year) and but the trades need to get Allen and Edumonds gutted the team of valuable draft capital and the two big free agency acquisition Star and Murphy haven't yielded dividends at least not right away. 

 

I think come 2019 we will know just how good the rebuilding process is. They have the cap space, the big pieces in place (At least in principle) and they have another draft class. 

[JohnC]

2 minutes ago, Bill from NYC said:

You know, looking at him, he resembles a pass rushing OLB/Hybrid DE than a MLB, at least he did to me.

 

He looks like a stud and I obviously do hope that he does pan out. I am not criticizing this selection at all John. I'm pissed at McDermott for other glaringly obvious reasons.

If you look at a McDermott defensive scheme for the most part he wants to generate a pass rush mostly with his line. You can't play LBer for him if you can't cover. I agree with you that Edmunds is a hybrid player but I see him more of a hybrid LB/Safety player than a hybrid DE/LB. He is a tremendous athlete with a lot of range. 

 

My sense is that McDermott took the job with the intention of completely remaking the roster. Last year was an aberration and doesn't represent where this team is actually situation. I have said it before and I more convinced than ever that this was a four year plan to rebuild this team. Even accepting that this was going to be a painful process. However, stripping the talent and replacing the departures with backup up caliber talent in my opinion doesn't advance your cause. 

 

McBeane gave up a high draft asset for Benjamin. I'm not a fan of him. It was a waste. I like Latuleili (sic) but not at his salary. A middle of the line plug could have been procured for a cheaper price. The bottom line is that there is a long way to go. And with some of the wrestling coach's decisions the distance is farther than it needed to be. 

[reddogblitz]

6 minutes ago, Shaw66 said:

You'd think so, but that would be ignoring how important character is to McDermott.   He's telling ALL of his guys that they have to be 100% into continuous improvement, all day, every day.   If he'd kept Dareus, he would have been saying to his team, "well, the rest of you guys have to be 100% into this, but Marcell is so good that he doesn't have to."   McDermott can't say that and build the team culture he wants.

 

This is fine and well and good and all, but you win in the NFL with studs.  You gotta have some even if they're not nice.

 

When the Cowboys were doing bad Jimmy would would put the hammer down and cut a 4th string RB asleep in a film session.  they asked him what he would do if Troy fell asleep in a film session and he said he would get him a glass of water and wake him up and sit by him to keep him awake.  Dennis Green said similar things.

 

I mean I understand the process and culture and all that, but there's a balance to everything.  You can't cut off your nose just to make a point IMHO.

[Formerly Allan in MD]

4 hours ago, John from Riverside said:

OR because this was a deep QB crop and the talent of the players justified the pick.

 

Meanwhile....there appears to be some line talent in next year's draft and a group of QBs nowhere near as talented.

Not saying OL has to be a first round pick.  But we've come nowhere close to that given our mediocre level of talent.

[oldmanfan]

1 minute ago, Formerly Allan in MD said:

Not saying OL has to be a first round pick.  But we've come nowhere close to that given our mediocre level of talent.

They have to have O line as a priority next draft I would think

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

If you look at a McDermott defensive scheme for the most part he wants to generate a pass rush mostly with his line. You can't play LBer for him if you can't cover. I agree with you that Edmunds is a hybrid player but I see him more of a hybrid LB/Safety player than a hybrid DE/LB. He is a tremendous athlete with a lot of range. 

 

My sense is that McDermott took the job with the intention of completely remaking the roster. Last year was an aberration and doesn't represent where this team is actually situation. I have said it before and I more convinced than ever that this was a four year plan to rebuild this team. Even accepting that this was going to be a painful process. However, stripping the talent and replacing the departures with backup up caliber talent in my opinion doesn't advance your cause. 

 

McBeane gave up a high draft asset for Benjamin. I'm not a fan of him. It was a waste. I like Latuleili (sic) but not at his salary. A middle of the line plug could have been procured for a cheaper price. The bottom line is that there is a long way to go. And with some of the wrestling coach's decisions the distance is farther than it needed to be. 

I understand this.  Honestly, I do.  But that pick was as much as an investment in the new QB as KB the player.  We simply needed to have an NFL caliber WR on this roster if we were going to trot a rookie out there.  We wanted that WR to be Zay but he's a bust.  At the time of the KB trade, we had no one at WR and no guarantee we would have any under contract in 2018.  

 

Now It might not work out either way because KB looks disinterested out there.  But if Allen sees significant time this year, I want him to have guys who can make plays.  Taking sacks left and right all rookie year because nobody is open time and time again wouldn't be ideal for his development, IMO

[Formerly Allan in MD]

4 hours ago, SoCal Deek said:

The Bills led, or were near the top, in Rushing the past couple of years.  The problem is that 40% of that O Line up and quit in the same offseason, and the front office did LITERALLY NOTHING about it at all.

Thank you.  But I'm talking about rushing offense.  Our pass protection has been atrocious for years.  The fact a turnstile like Mills has been around as long as he has says plenty in this regard.

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, JohnC said:

The mental health issues he had were under control while he was with the team and playing football. When he left and was not attached to any team he became unhinged. While he was us and was anchored by the game he was functioning reasonably well. Without question he was our best blocker in the unit. When he left he was replaced by one of the worst blockers in the league. When all is said and done getting backups to be starters is a fool proof way to undercut your offense to perform at even a mediocre level. The outcome was predictable. And most football commentators outside of this organization recognized it before the season started. What was obvious to the outside was not so obvious to the inside. 

 

 

On the contrary, it was certainly very obvious to them that they were likely to have problems at OL once Incognito and Wood left, and even more so when they traded Glenn as well. Nobody's dumb enough not to notice this. But they had other priorities they decided to handle first.

 

You can't prioritize everything. Attempting to do so only shows a lack of priorities.

 

Another thing that should be very obvious is that you can't address every weak area each year. They had problems this year at one CB, at LB, at OL, at DL and at WR. Oh, and did I forget QB? 

 

There was never a chance to fill all the possible holes so things would look just fine this year. Particularly for a team which had been in serious cap trouble and with a GM who had promised the owner to get rid of that cap problem this year. It simply was not going to happen.

 

It's bizarre to me how people expect every hole to be filled even though it doesn't happen on even the best teams with relatively few holes. It's what makes it difficult to be an NFL GM. There is no perfect solution and even good solutions tend to take several years before things start to look good if you're starting with a lot of holes. And we are.

Edited September 11, 2018 by Thurman#1

[BringBackOrton]

53 minutes ago, JohnC said:

The mental health issues he had were under control while he was with the team and playing football. When he left and was not attached to any team he became unhinged. While he was us and was anchored by the game he was functioning reasonably well. Without question he was our best blocker in the unit. When he left he was replaced by one of the worst blockers in the league. When all is said and done getting backups to be starters is a fool proof way to undercut your offense to perform at even a mediocre level. The outcome was predictable. And most football commentators outside of this organization recognized it before the season started. What was obvious to the outside was not so obvious to the inside. 

The mistake you make is that no one expected Richie to melt down after his paycut.  

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

I understand this.  Honestly, I do.  But that pick was as much as an investment in the new QB as KB the player.  We simply needed to have an NFL caliber WR on this roster if we were going to trot a rookie out there.  We wanted that WR to be Zay but he's a bust.  At the time of the KB trade, we had no one at WR and no guarantee we would have any under contract in 2018.  

 

Now It might not work out either way because KB looks disinterested out there.  But if Allen sees significant time this year, I want him to have guys who can make plays.  Taking sacks left and right all rookie year because nobody is open time and time again wouldn't be ideal for his development, IMO

The problem with your stance is that Benjamin doesn't get open. He is a big receiver who can out jump the defender. But he is not significantly helping out the qb when he is constantly being blanketed. In addition, Benjamin has a history of being lazy and out of shape. He's not the type of player/person who you want to lock up with a big contract because he lacks discipline and motivation. 

[Thurman#1]

8 minutes ago, reddogblitz said:

 

This is fine and well and good and all, but you win in the NFL with studs.  You gotta have some even if they're not nice.

 

When the Cowboys were doing bad Jimmy would would put the hammer down and cut a 4th string RB asleep in a film session.  they asked him what he would do if Troy fell asleep in a film session and he said he would get him a glass of water and wake him up and sit by him to keep him awake.  Dennis Green said similar things.

 

I mean I understand the process and culture and all that, but there's a balance to everything.  You can't cut off your nose just to make a point IMHO.

 

 

Yes, you've got to have studs. No, not all studs are jerks. So yeah, you can have a team with studs who have character. That's what this group is aiming for.

 

Jimmy Johnson had a different plan and a different group of players. How did Jimmy's acceptance of bad character guys work out for him in Miami? Where were all the bad character guys in New England or Philly last year?

 

[billsfan89]

3 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

This is basically a fact, so then it does make sense.

This is exactly right.  Luke Kuechly is a great player and every team would love to have him.  But every team would rather have a Khalil Mack or Von Miller over Kuechly and it's not even close.

 

I think Linebackers that can cover are restoring value to the linebacker position. I think the emphasis on the short and intermediate passing game has made a linebacker that can cover those areas of the field is super valuable. I also think that Edumonds has value some what in the pass rush but I think his value in the pass defense is something that is really valuable. 

 

You could argue if a trade up (even for a modest price) was worth it for or not but Edumonds could be a very valuable piece of the defense his skillset fits a valuable part of a modern NFL defense. 

[unclepete]

2 hours ago, Doc said:

 

If they were trying to tank, they wouldn't have signed anyone in FA, traded for anyone, and would have traded all their best assets.  IOW...they weren't trying to tank. 

 

 

Oh I agree completely. But whether they were trying to tank or not their decisions were inconsistent

[JohnC]

1 minute ago, BringBackOrton said:

The mistake you make is that no one expected Richie to melt down after his paycut.  

Forcing your best blocker over the previous few years to take a significant pay cut indicated to him that he wasn't wanted or valued. We could have easily kept him one more year on his contract without stressing the cap. It was needless. 

[BringBackOrton]

1 minute ago, JohnC said:

The problem with your stance is that Benjamin doesn't get open. He is a big receiver who can out jump the defender. But he is not significantly helping out the qb when he is constantly being blanketed. In addition, Benjamin has a history of being lazy and out of shape. He's not the type of player/person who you want to lock up with a big contract because he lacks discipline and motivation. 

KB put up 1000 yards as the #1 WR in Carolina.  He was a first round talent at WR.  He produces.  He's an NFL caliber WR.  He's the only one the Bills had.  I disagree that he can't significantly help out a QB when he's the only guy worth anything on the group.  

 

I'm not advocating for a big contract, especially at this point.  I don't think McBeane and co are either, tbh.  We traded a 3rd for 2 years of his services, with the possibility he grew up and earned the big deal.  He doesn't appear to have done so.

 

Allen + Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Andre Holmes sounds like a great way to destroy a QB.

3 minutes ago, billsfan89 said:

 

I think Linebackers that can cover are restoring value to the linebacker position. I think the emphasis on the short and intermediate passing game has made a linebacker that can cover those areas of the field is super valuable. I also think that Edumonds has value some what in the pass rush but I think his value in the pass defense is something that is really valuable. 

 

You could argue if a trade up (even for a modest price) was worth it for or not but Edumonds could be a very valuable piece of the defense his skillset fits a valuable part of a modern NFL defense. 

Coverage LB's have their place.  They are certainly valuable, but they will never have the value of pass rushers.  A pass rusher can affect every throw, potentially.  An LB in coverage can only affect throws in his vicinity/the guy he is covering.  It's why pass rushers are consistently the highest paid defensive players in the NFL.

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, COTC said:

 

It is def not too early to judge. 

 

Ignorance isnt an excuse. 

 

 

 

 

It is absolutely too early to judge. Again, not a single guy drafted by Beane here in Buffalo has played more than one NFL game.

 

Ignorance isn't the excuse. Sometimes things take time. Sure, it'd be great if your kid graduated college in a year and a half. But blaming someone for not graduating college in a year and a half is similar to blaming a GM this early. Some things take time. This is one of them.

[Rocbillsfan1]

5 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I agree that taking a QB high in the draft is a necessity. It's something that previous Bills GM's should have done a long time ago. I disagree with how McBeane is going about the tear down and rebuild. Last year, McBeane tried to win now and do the rebuild, which IMO is counterproductive, It should be one or the other. If the intent was to take a QB high and get their QB of the defense [Edmunds], then they should have traded Tyrod Taylor last year and went with Nathan Peterman or some other journeyman last season. The Bills could have had a top 10 pick in the draft and only had to move up slightly (or not at all) in the draft to take Allen, plus kept more of their draft capital to pick better players. 

The only thing I like about last year is at least the streak is over I don’t think people realize how big of a problem that would have been for the new process of moving forward with a rebuild and having that hanging over your head. 

[JohnC]

4 minutes ago, BringBackOrton said:

 

 

Allen + Zay Jones/Robert Foster/Andre Holmes sounds like a great way to destroy a QB.

 

If you want to have your young qb destroyed then have a line that can't block. Constantly being pummeled and battered is not a recipe for longevity and development. 

[BringBackOrton]

4 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Forcing your best blocker over the previous few years to take a significant pay cut indicated to him that he wasn't wanted or valued. We could have easily kept him one more year on his contract without stressing the cap. It was needless. 

Forcing?  He agreed to it.  We are hardly privy to Richie's mental state and the discussions regarding the paycut behind closed doors.

 

With any paycut, there's the unspoken threat of "we may have to cut you if you don't agree," but Richie agreed, then melted down and reneged.  Hundreds of players before Richie have taken paycuts in their old age without resorting to calling the team owner's in the middle of the night screaming obscenities.  And once he did that, he was done in the NFL.  He was the author of his own fate.  You don't harass the boss who writes the checks just because you feel slighted.

 

It's a damn shame.  And it hurt the Buffalo Bills.  But no one carries more responsibility for that than Richie Incognito himself.

Just now, JohnC said:

If you want to have your young qb destroyed then have a line that can't block. Constantly being pummeled and battered is not a recipe for longevity and development. 

We agree then that you need decent NFLers around a QB to help your QB?  How you could be okay with Zay Jones as a #1 option in the year of our lord 2018 and in the same breath bemoan the offensive line is beyond me.

[Thurman#1]

5 hours ago, Jerry Jabber said:

I agree that taking a QB high in the draft is a necessity. It's something that previous Bills GM's should have done a long time ago. I disagree with how McBeane is going about the tear down and rebuild. Last year, McBeane tried to win now and do the rebuild, which IMO is counterproductive, It should be one or the other. If the intent was to take a QB high and get their QB of the defense [Edmunds], then they should have traded Tyrod Taylor last year and went with Nathan Peterman or some other journeyman last season. The Bills could have had a top 10 pick in the draft and only had to move up slightly (or not at all) in the draft to take Allen, plus kept more of their draft capital to pick better players. 

 

 

Look, I agree with your feeling that we should have tried a total rebuild. It's what I would have done. But there are legit arguments on both sides. The owners must have been thrilled with making the playoffs last year, lucky as it was. Thrilled. And the players notice when a new regime tries its best to win from minute one. It might easily bring out more of the best in them.

 

I'd've totally rebuilt. But they made it clear from minute one that that's not what they were doing. Now we'll know how things went a couple of years down the road. Both ways can work. It's not like there's only one correct way.

 

You say if they wanted a QB high and a QB of the defence, they should've gone about it differently. And yet, they got a QB high and a QB of the defense. Got it done. And it's not like running a total rebuild last year would have produced a good team this year. They still would have been awful this year.

[Pbomb]

6 hours ago, COTC said:

Insecurity....he is not a good gm. That much is apparent. 

Did you hear this from your executive friend