Star Lotulelei: Where is the Impact?

[The Now Moment]

1 minute ago, billsfan89 said:

 

The run defense this week was not good, now that might not be Star's fault once you break down the All-22 analysis, Star could have been doing what he does effectively (occupying blockers and taking on guys into the gaps he is designed to) and the porous run defense could have been a result of Edumonds over playing his gaps or the players next to him. 

 

It's hard to tell with a player like Star but it just seems from watching him that he looks more like an OK player against the run when he is paid to be a great player in that respect. I watch guys like Snacks and they seem to almost always control the line of scrimmage, like they are immovable players that the opposing O-line can't shift. Star doesn't look like he has an gravity along the trenches. 

It's been two games and we switched defensive play callers in the second half and gave up 3 points.  Star has a rookie and a second year player behind him.  It's gonna take some time until everyone gels.  Patience.  

[DabillsDaBillsDaBills]

12 minutes ago, Johnny Hammersticks said:

Didn’t he grade out rather well by PPF metrics last week?  I didn’t key in on him so much that week, and obviously haven’t seen the all22, but he didn’t strike me as someone who played poorly.  He eats up blockers and keeps the LB’ers clean.  What’s the big deal here?

 

For $50,000,000.00 I want more than a limited snap count guy that eats space. 

[The Now Moment]

1 minute ago, MAJBobby said:

 

And no he didnt. He has regressed every year since being a Rookie and very easy to see why Carolina moved on. 

Apologies, Timmy had 4 more tackles haha.

 

 

[MAJBobby]

1 minute ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

For $50,000,000.00 I want more than a limited snap count guy that eats space. 

 

Ding ding ding ding

[billsfan89]

Just now, Buffalo30 said:

It's been two games and we switched defensive play callers in the second half and gave up 3 points.  Star has a rookie and a second year player behind him.  It's gonna take some time until everyone gels.  Patience.  

 

I know, it's only 2 games but with Star the lackluster pre-season and the lack of perceived impact in weeks 1 and 2 just make you think that he isn't doing well. I think Edumonds is making him worse than he is. Edumonds is over playing gaps and making bad reads (Which is to be expected for a 20 year old rookie) that leads to bigger runs over the middle that make it look like Star isn't doing his job. Hopefully McD takes a more hands on approach with the defense going forward. 

 

I think Allen needs to play in games where he isn't down big early. It will help the offense play more within him and Allen won't be playing to come from behind as much. 

2 minutes ago, DabillsDaBillsDaBills said:

 

For $50,000,000.00 I want more than a limited snap count guy that eats space. 

 

That's what kills me about Star, if Star was a 7 aav guy with a contract the team could have gotten out of after 2019, I would have loved the signing. He is a dirty work guy that shifts along the o-line and attacks blockers to free up line backers. 

 

But for the money they spent they need a dominating player in that dimension and it just doesn't look like he is worth his steep price tag. 

[YoloinOhio]

 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

I don't understand the vitriol toward Star. He hasn't been TERRIBLE by any measure.

 

[Roundybout]

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2018/9/19/17873874/all-22-analysis-buffalo-bills-defensive-tackle-star-lotulelei-run-stopping-double-teams-swim-move

 

 

Posted in another thread, but it is worth a look considering the grief Star gets. Looks like he is doing exactly what he was brought in to do - eat up double teams and let the rest of the boys do their jobs. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Run stuffing DTs in a pass happy nfl is such a waste of big money.  This regime is stuck in the 1970s.  Run and stop the run.  Who cares about passing the ball?

[TPS]

6 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Run stuffing DTs in a pass happy nfl is such a waste of big money.  This regime is stuck in the 1970s.  Run and stop the run.  Who cares about passing the ball?

Yeah, I liked their strategy from last year: if they can run at will, then they won't pass.  It reduces the points against....

[Roundybout]

24 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Run stuffing DTs in a pass happy nfl is such a waste of big money.  This regime is stuck in the 1970s.  Run and stop the run.  Who cares about passing the ball?

 

I'll remember that when Jay Ajayi or a similar variety runs for 200 yards on us 

[John from Riverside]

On 9/16/2018 at 8:03 PM, MAJBobby said:

Poe 5.3M

Jernigan 5.0M

Harrison 9.6 M also one game of stats this year 6 tackles 

 

star zip zero zilch

 

so where are your numbers from again?

Over 2 games

[ctk232]

On 9/17/2018 at 11:10 AM, joesixpack said:

I don't understand the vitriol toward Star. He hasn't been TERRIBLE by any measure.

 

Because after all we've been through the last 18 seasons, we want immediate gratification, all or nothing...

 

The guy does exactly what our defensive scheme and coaches are requesting of him, and he's executing what the coaches have asked of him. Whether it's enough based upon the contract offered is the issue, but he won't make any highlight reels since he isn't the one making the tackle. The better assessment is of our defensive scheme as a whole and whether it's actually successful.

Edited September 19, 2018 by ctk232

[C.Biscuit97]

29 minutes ago, BillsEnthusiast said:

 

I'll remember that when Jay Ajayi or a similar variety runs for 200 yards on us 

8 of the top 10 run defenses missed the playoffs.  http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/team/_/stat/rushing/sort/yardsPerRushAttempt/position/defense/year/2017.  Please enter the year 2018 good sir!

16 minutes ago, ctk232 said:

Because after all we've been through the last 18 seasons, we want immediate gratification, all or nothing...

 

The guy does exactly what our defensive scheme and coaches are requesting of him, and he's executing what the coaches have asked of him. Whether it's enough based upon the contract offered, mayhaps, but it doesn't make any highlight reels since he isn't the one making the tackle. The better assessment is of our defensive scheme as a whole and whether it's actually successful.

For me, I don’t think he’s terrible.  It’s just a misguided thought process.  This is not what you should be spending big money in the nfl in 2018.  This regime just seems behind the times.  Let’s draft a raw qb then force him to start with no oline or no wrs!  Let’s get a run stuffing offense in a league where a 2nd year player threw for 6 tds.

 

star is unplayable on some downs.  Bad use of money in today’s nfl.

[MAJBobby]

1 hour ago, John from Riverside said:

Over 2 games

 

Want to look up Harrison’s numbers over two games?

[Green Lightning]

On 9/16/2018 at 11:28 PM, Buffalo30 said:

A lot of fans stare at the stats column too much

Agree. Hard to measure tieing up O lineman.

[ColoradoBills]

1 hour ago, ctk232 said:

Because after all we've been through the last 18 seasons, we want immediate gratification, all or nothing...

 

The guy does exactly what our defensive scheme and coaches are requesting of him, and he's executing what the coaches have asked of him. Whether it's enough based upon the contract offered is the issue, but he won't make any highlight reels since he isn't the one making the tackle. The better assessment is of our defensive scheme as a whole and whether it's actually successful.

 

Exactly.  The Bills seem to have overpaid by a couple of million.  It happens in FA all the time.

Watch to see how Beane will have to overpay during next years FA.

IMO Star has to play a lot more games for a real good assessment can be made of his overall worth.

[Augie]

On 9/16/2018 at 11:24 PM, Johnny Hammersticks said:

Didn’t he grade out rather well by PPF metrics last week?  I didn’t key in on him so much that week, and obviously haven’t seen the all22, but he didn’t strike me as someone who played poorly.  He eats up blockers and keeps the LB’ers clean.  What’s the big deal here?

 

Well, if you’re not unhappy, you’re not trying. Right? 

 

I’m good with fair criticism. Often it’s just frustration. And for some guys it’s just their thing. 

 

I’m not sure if he’s quietly doing exactly was he was signed for or not. I hope that’s the case and I guess we’ll all know in time. 

[SoTier]

On 9/16/2018 at 10:29 PM, billsfan89 said:

Yes had they kept Sammy, Dareus, Darby, Tyrod, and Glenn they would be better, but would they be a championship team? If they had those big contracts on the roster would they have the cap space to build around Allen in 2019 and beyond? I have serious doubt that Beane will be able to take the cap space and turn it into good veteran acquisitions. But I can't say that the cap was not an issue in building the 2017 and 2018 rosters. 

 

And this one is a championship team????   Sorry, but shedding talent the way McDermott and Beane did in 2017 and 2018 is NOT the only way to add talent to the Bills.  As an alternative, consider if in 2017 the Bills had paid Stephon Gilmore and Robert Woods, used the #10 pick on Mahomes or Watson, used the fifth round pick they wasted on Peterman on an OLer (as in both Wood and Incognito would be 30+ in 2018).  That would have enabled them to use the draft capital they acquired before the 2018 draft to fill the holes created by letting Goodwin walk and trading Watkins, Dareus, and Taylor.  Trading Darby and Glenn would have then been unnecessary, so there would be no holes in the defensive backfield to be filled, and the Bills could have moved Dawkins over to RT to replace Jordan Mills.  They would have still had plenty of draft capital fill the holes created by the sudden retirements of Wood and Incognito -- and have a much better team, including having their QB of the future with much better OL and WR corps.

3 hours ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Run stuffing DTs in a pass happy nfl is such a waste of big money.  This regime is stuck in the 1970s.  Run and stop the run.  Who cares about passing the ball?

 

Except this team doesn't look capable of either running or stopping the run with any kind of consistency.

[billsfan89]

18 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

And this one is a championship team????   Sorry, but shedding talent the way McDermott and Beane did in 2017 and 2018 is NOT the only way to add talent to the Bills.  As an alternative, consider if in 2017 the Bills had paid Stephon Gilmore and Robert Woods, used the #10 pick on Mahomes or Watson, used the fifth round pick they wasted on Peterman on an OLer (as in both Wood and Incognito would be 30+ in 2018).  That would have enabled them to use the draft capital they acquired before the 2018 draft to fill the holes created by letting Goodwin walk and trading Watkins, Dareus, and Taylor.  Trading Darby and Glenn would have then been unnecessary, so there would be no holes in the defensive backfield to be filled, and the Bills could have moved Dawkins over to RT to replace Jordan Mills.  They would have still had plenty of draft capital fill the holes created by the sudden retirements of Wood and Incognito -- and have a much better team, including having their QB of the future with much better OL and WR corps.

 

This isn't a championship team, but in 2019 the team will have a shitload of cap space to go out and put talent around a young QB, the Bills will actually be in a position to take advantage of a young QB on a rookie contract. Whereas it is entirely possible in your hypothetical scenario that the Bills could have been stuck with a lot of over-inflated contracts for under-performing and injured players. By signing Gilmore, Woods, and keeping Darby and Glenn the Bills (While still eating dead cap from Dareus and Taylor) would have been in a pretty bad spot cap wise while they have a young QB, thus negating an advantage of having an affordable QB under contract for the first 3 years. Yeah by 2020 they could have gotten out from under a lot of those deals but then you are close to having to pay your rookie QB which means your window in that regard is closing. 

 

Gilmore was considered overpaid by the Pats so how much money would it have cost to keep him in Buffalo? Gilmore commanded 13 aav from a much better team, would you have been willing to pay him 15-16 million to stay? Robert Woods isn't a #1 WR, he is thriving in LA but they brought in Sammy and Cooks to avoid having to lean on him entirely in the receiving core. You can consider Woods better than KB but I can't say the difference is that much. If you traded away Sammy you don't really have that much of an improved WR core unless you still trade draft capital for KB (Which you have less of in this scenario.) 

 

Also do Darby and Gilmore fit in a zone scheme in your hypothetical scenario? With Woods and Gilmore on massive deals they can't go out and get Hyde which creates a big hole on defense. The Bills were in a tight spot in the 2017 off-season cap wise. If they signed Gilmore as the highest paid corner in the league and signed Woods as a top 25 (at the time) WR contract they are pretty capped out that off-season and they would be pretty tight in 2018 esp with having to eat Dareus and Tyrod dead money. 

 

2019 they would have had some space but then Darby has to get paid which would eat into it. I do understand your point about it being frustrating to lose good players who are doing well on other teams while the Bills accrued draft picks and future space. But if the Bills actually wanted to follow the blueprint for winning in the NFL (Have a good young QB on a rookie contract and sell out to get talent while you have an affordable QB) then the Bills had to pass on a QB in 2017 and get out from under a lot of their big contracts in 2018. Had they drafted a QB in 2017 they would have been capped out for 3-4 years trying to keep talent that while good wasn't lighting the world on fire and in some cases had serious injury risks. 

 

I am not saying McBeane's method will work but rather that it was the right way to try and rebuild a team under a new regime. Accrue draft capital to move up for a QB, clear out big contracts and malcontents while acquiring draft picks, and open up a lot of salary cap space while you have multiple years of affordable rookie scale QB play. Now it is possible that the players McBeane brings in via free agency won't be as good (I fear that greatly given their pro-personnel track record) but they have to try and build a team the correct way. 

[vincec]

Lotulelei was brought in as an interior run defender and the interior run defense is pretty good, even with a rookie MLB. Maybe they overpaid for him but that’s a different discussion. The real problem is at DE, where they are getting gashed on runs to the perimeter and failing to generate a consisten pass rush.

[ctk232]

15 hours ago, ColoradoBills said:

 

Exactly.  The Bills seem to have overpaid by a couple of million.  It happens in FA all the time.

Watch to see how Beane will have to overpay during next years FA.

IMO Star has to play a lot more games for a real good assessment can be made of his overall worth.

It's the one down side to rebuilding through FA - no player really wants to come to a team that won't compete, especially one that looks like this. Rebuilds are best started through the draft to build a talent base for 1-2 years before bringing in real top FA talent to fill out the roster at key positions of need. Right now we have the cap space, but I'm worried we'll have to overpay to get anyone here. Hate to say it, but it looks like we made our playoff push a year too early given our cap situation next year  

[26CornerBlitz]

14 hours ago, vincec said:

Lotulelei was brought in as an interior run defender and the interior run defense is pretty good, even with a rookie MLB. Maybe they overpaid for him but that’s a different discussion. The real problem is at DE, where they are getting gashed on runs to the perimeter and failing to generate a consisten pass rush.

 

He was also brought in to push the pocket in order to prevent opposing QBs from stepping up to avoid outside rushers. 

[Jpsredemption]

Move the talent out and bring it the players we know or guys who try hard and have 2nd rate talent.

 

That's the theme of this regime.

[GoBills808]

On 9/17/2018 at 8:10 AM, joesixpack said:

I don't understand the vitriol toward Star. He hasn't been TERRIBLE by any measure.

 

Hasn't even been bad, really. He's just consistently been doing his job, which has admittedly been hard to see when the Bills are getting blown out by 20+ in the first half of games.

 

If people were expecting a bunch of sacks from Lotulelei they were always bound to be disappointed. 

[Pine Barrens Mafia]

2 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

Hasn't even been bad, really. He's just consistently been doing his job, which has admittedly been hard to see when the Bills are getting blown out by 20+ in the first half of games.

 

If people were expecting a bunch of sacks from Lotulelei they were always bound to be disappointed. 

 

That's more of a them problem than a star problem?

 

[Wsam4031]

Its amazing to me all these people talking about MArcel and we should've kept him. Dude was a fat bum who didn't want to play. Everyone's memory is so short. We all had the pitchforks ready when he was here and were happy when we traded him. I for one was ecstatic he was traded. Was sick of seeing him getting into trouble and taking off games. He wasn't doing jack the year he was traded and isn't doing jack now. We cleared a lot of cap space by trading him and helped the locker room. Our biggest problem was how we replaced him. Signing Star to that contract was a complete flop on Beanes part and unfortunately will be for the next 3 years until it becomes cost effective to cut him. Beans moves as GM have been bad at best. Im not ready to lynch him yet but im getting close. I see what hes trying to do but hes not getting much talent to do it with.