Moving up to #2 = No Playoffs for the next three years

[What a Tuel]

6 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

It's a once-in-a-blue-moon opportunity to load up on NFL starters... It'd be crazy to trade it away for someone who might not be.

 

KEEP THE DAMN PICKS! -Go Bills!

 

One of the La Canfora quotes from the other thread is that some believe there are only 17-21 true first round picks in this draft. Not sure what that means for the rest of the draft, but to me it sounds like "loading up on NFL starters" is a long shot.

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

57 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

Moving up is sexy, it's fun, it's what's for dinner these days. But moving up will set the team's growth back three, maybe five years. Possibly longer. This team has so many holes, that to throw away all these picks on a QB who might be good is insanity. 

 

If we can somehow move up and still have 1 2nd and 1 3rd...I'd be willing to listen. But only for Rosen or Mayfield. Trading up for any of the other QBs is insanity. Especially since Jackson has a very good chance of being there at 12. Hell, he has a good chance of being there at 22.

 

I'd rather pick an elite player at 12 - Roquan Smith, Derwin James, Vita Vea....etc. Use the rest of the picks on holes like WR, OL, DL, LB....

 

Throwing away this draft along with a first next next year? No thanks. 

contrary to the 6 + confused comments you have,  I agree with the premise.

 

Getting a #1, 2 or 3 is too damn costly for a team "still rebuilding  retooling ". 

 

[Augie]

1 minute ago, RochesterRob said:

  I don't see the term "franchise QB" stamped on any of these guys' foreheads.  Instead we have a bunch of guys with both a high ceiling and a low floor due to in part personal attitude.  If there were truly a franchise QB there then the Browns would have been presented with "we'll give you not just one farm but two farms" for the number 1 overall pick.

 

The Eagles got over the small school thing, and it worked out OK. You have to swing the bat when you think you’ve got the right guy. It’s our FO who has to decide who they believe in, then live or die (well, get fired anyway) for the decision.

 

If they don’t believe in any of them, don’t draft another EJ “just because”.  They are the football people, we are the fans. They put their careers on the line, but then they are the experts. We’ll see in time. 

[JoeF]

I guess I imagined a team that:

 

1) Held the Falcons pretty much in check on their home turf

2) Beat the Chiefs at Arrowhead

3) Mostly stayed in and won a few games the Bills would normally lose. Except for a one-game brain fart (that carried into three games) by a rookie head coach where he benched the starting QB in favor of a not ready rookie..

 

Newsflash-- but these guys can coach.  I know its hard to believe -- but the Bills can actually out game plan some NFL teams. 

 

This roster will be more talented come 5 PM April 28th than it is today no matter what the Bills do and it will be more talented on August 30th, 2018 than it was on August 30, 2017.  Does that make the Bills a playoff team in 2018 -- no-- but the premise that the Bills are automatically eliminated if they trade to #2 and draft Mayfield, Rosen or Darnold is not a very sound one.  It's just as valid to believe that the Bills go on a Philly like run with a franchise rookie QB and a really good back-up QB who thrives in the "O" system they will be running.  I know its difficult for us Bills fans, but think positive.

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by JoeF

[CountDorkula]

1 minute ago, What a Tuel said:

 

One of the La Canfora quotes from the other thread is that some believe there are only 17-21 true first round picks in this draft. Not sure what that means for the rest of the draft, but to me it sounds like "loading up on NFL starters" is a long shot.

We have all the picks though..... That obviously means that all stars are going to come out of the wood work.

 

All the while Nate Peterman is going to throw 5 INTs a game, and AJ McCarron will slow the offense to a crawl like he did in Cincinatti when he took over and it all will matter not. 

[Domdab99]

18 minutes ago, GoBills808 said:

I believe we would have with a better quarterback, honestly.

 

Like the Rams did?

[BillsMafioso]

9 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

  I don't see the term "franchise QB" stamped on any of these guys' foreheads.  Instead we have a bunch of guys with both a high ceiling and a low floor due to in part personal attitude.  If there were truly a franchise QB there then the Browns would have been presented with "we'll give you not just one farm but two farms" for the number 1 overall pick.

“You miss 100% of the shots you don’t take” -Michael Jordan

 

also, nearly every football expert in the USA disagrees with you

 

For years the jets deployed the strategy of “oh it’s not worth it for that qb”...now they’re desperate. While teams like the Rams, Texans, Eagles, chiefs, even the bears atleast aren’t in QB purgatory anymore

 

man, some of you fans, despite my love for you, make my head hurt.

Edited April 3, 2018 by BillsMafioso

[BuffaloBillyG]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

Moving up is sexy, it's fun, it's what's for dinner these days. But moving up will set the team's growth back three, maybe five years. Possibly longer. This team has so many holes, that to throw away all these picks on a QB who might be good is insanity. 

 

If we can somehow move up and still have 1 2nd and 1 3rd...I'd be willing to listen. But only for Rosen or Mayfield. Trading up for any of the other QBs is insanity. Especially since Jackson has a very good chance of being there at 12. Hell, he has a good chance of being there at 22.

 

I'd rather pick an elite player at 12 - Roquan Smith, Derwin James, Vita Vea....etc. Use the rest of the picks on holes like WR, OL, DL, LB....

 

Throwing away this draft along with a first next next year? No thanks. 

Welp, we didn't trade up in the past and missed the playoffs for 17 years. 

 

Missing 3 is child's play.

[Will-GM-for-food]

There are several holes on the roster, there is no denying that. However, getting a good QB (even if it takes trading up) can alleviate many of those so we don't need to desperately fill them.

 

Example: Our run D is bad, as was evident last season. With a better QB we will score more points. Start getting out to a lead or get into a higher scoring game and teams wont be running against our D as much, and our strong secondary will have its chance to shine. Add a couple more pieces and everything will be fine.

 

I know that sounds amazing in theory and might not necessarily be true in practice, but it could have a large effect. 

[CountDorkula]

2 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

 

Like the Rams did?

How many times have the Bills had a good/great defense in the last 18 years?

How many times were you left saying, man if we only had a QB this year?

 

Check and mate. 

[RochesterRob]

4 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

One of the La Canfora quotes from the other thread is that some believe there are only 17-21 true first round picks in this draft. Not sure what that means for the rest of the draft, but to me it sounds like "loading up on NFL starters" is a long shot.

  There can be a difference between 17-21 true first round picks and players who will be taken later but will round into capable starters early in their careers.  It's nice to think that we can load all of our starting 22 with All-Pro's but the reality is capable starters are players every team has to rely on.

[What a Tuel]

1 minute ago, DougFlutie7 said:

The stupidity is overwhelming. A certain percentage of this fan base has been conditioned to not prioritize the QB position. The “so many holes to fill” crowd are so annoying and so wrong. 

 

QB doesn't count in the "holes to fill" category.  But put a priority alert on replacing Jordan Matthews STAT!!!!

[BuffAlone]

59 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

Plus, we've got a huge cap surplas next year....we can be very pro-active in FA then. 

That's EXACTLY why we trade this year away for a QB. Add in the draft, along with a ton of cap space next year. It will be the QB's 2nd year in the system. Get some nice FA's. And we're off!

[RochesterRob]

4 minutes ago, DougFlutie7 said:

The stupidity is overwhelming. A certain percentage of this fan base has been conditioned to not prioritize the QB position. The “so many holes to fill” crowd are so annoying and so wrong. 

 UGH!!!   We are back to calling people who have differing thoughts "stupid, or annoying, or wrong."  Can people who think that gambling away the future on one draft pick be considered in those terms?  I for one believe so.  

[SoTier]

5 minutes ago, DougFlutie7 said:

The stupidity is overwhelming. A certain percentage of this fan base has been conditioned to not prioritize the QB position. The “so many holes to fill” crowd are so annoying and so wrong. 

 

You're right about the stupidity.  A certain percentage of this fan base has been conditioned to believe that QBs drafted in the top five can't bust.  Todd Blackledge, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Vince Young, JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez, and Robert Griffin III all say "hi, fools".

[What a Tuel]

2 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

 UGH!!!   We are back to calling people who have differing thoughts "stupid, or annoying, or wrong."  Can people who think that gambling away the future on one draft pick be considered in those terms?  I for one believe so.  

 

I wouldn't call you guys stupid, but gullible, wrong, and yes it is annoying that you guys continuously underestimate and undervalue the position that has held this team back for 18 years.

[CountDorkula]

2 minutes ago, RochesterRob said:

 UGH!!!   We are back to calling people who have differing thoughts "stupid, or annoying, or wrong."  Can people who think that gambling away the future on one draft pick be considered in those terms?  I for one believe so.  

Its not gambling.

 

Is QB not a hole, is QB not the most important position on the field.? End of story.

 

A MLB is not going to damn for you

a stud WR is not going to throw the ball to himself

a stud Guard is not going to matter if the guy he is blocking for cant get out of his own way

a Stud CB (Cough White cough) is not going to win you games because the offense cant move the ball.

 

We have seen this all for 18 years. How can you think that a QB is not important enough to get to teh top of the draft board. I do not understand. 

[Augie]

There are “different opinions”, I’d like to think there is not “stupidity”.  I’ll try to relax, we still have weeks to go.... 

[CountDorkula]

1 minute ago, SoTier said:

 

You're right about the stupidity.  A certain percentage of this fan base has been conditioned to believe that QBs drafted in the top five can't bust.  Todd Blackledge, Ryan Leaf, Tim Couch, Akili Smith, David Carr, Joey Harrington, Vince Young, JaMarcus Russell, Mark Sanchez, and Robert Griffin III all say "hi, fools".

Ah yes. Next based on the past we should only draft  guys from Tennessee or Purdue or Michigan. Tha'ts where the best QB's in the league have come from.

[Boatdrinks]

1 hour ago, MAJBobby said:

Anyone notice what a real QB did for San Fran ONCE the trade for Jimmy G was made. 

 

Instant upgrade. 

 

But in Buffalo land it means no playoffs for 3 years 

Of course, Garrapolo was acquired for the lofty price of a second round pick. 

[GoBills808]

9 minutes ago, Domdab99 said:

 

Like the Rams did?

The unrelated and pretty much useless-for-comparison Rams game was lost to a team just a season removed from having the Super Bowl pretty much wrapped up. The Rams killed themselves with turnovers and were trying to contend with Matt Ryan and Julio Jones...they're a young squad and it showed in that game. The fact that Goff couldn't pull them to a win in a game where they asked him to throw 45 times because they were playing catch up the whole time doesn't really mean a better QB wouldn't have won us the game vs Jacksonville...a 10-3 affair where Taylor managed 134 yards and an INT on 46% passing.

[CountDorkula]

Miami drafted Jake long instead of taking questionable Matt Ryan. boy did they make the right choice.  They got that all star Tackle though.

 

How did all star tackle Joe Thomas lift his team to the playoffs.....

[What a Tuel]

Lets put it this way, let's say we trade 12, 21, 2nd, 3rd to move up. Would a starting MLB, and 2 potential starters be worth a shot at finally getting a top tier QB? I mean come on. The answer HAS to be yes guys. After 18 years it should be a resounding YES!.

Edited April 3, 2018 by What a Tuel

[#34fan]

30 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

It’s a once in a blue moon opportunity to get a Franchise QB. Without the QB you go nowhere. 

 

As many here are quick to point out, we backed into a wildcard spot last season with a scrub under center... All we need, is an OC with half a brain, a QB who

 

will commit to throwing downfield on a consistent basis, and a defense that can plug the run and get the QB... If we can infuse some actual TALENT into that

 

dynamic, we'll be well above average.-Especially with a QB as used to winning as AJ McCarron is.

 

 

 

 

Edited April 3, 2018 by #34fan

[LABILLBACKER]

1 hour ago, Logic said:

I'll see your "Moving up to #2 = no playoffs for the next three years" and raise it a "No franchise QB = no Super Bowl Championships for the next decade".

Under normal circumstances, I might be inclined to agree with you, but the Bills' 2018 draft is not "normal circumstances". They've spent two full offseasons offloading talent after talent JUST to accumulate picks for this very purpose. As it stands now, they could reasonably trade up, get a quarterback, STILL have a decent amount of picks to use this year, and then go into 2019 with nearly $100 million in cap space to build around the young QB.

Can't say "maybe next year" forever. Go get a QB and be done with it.

So true. Last I checked qb is worth more than all the other positions combined. It's the most important position in all of sports.  We've been w/o one since Jim. If you're going to roll the dice this is the year. Brady will be retiring soon. The  NFC is loaded with good young qbs. The AFC  not as much,  with guys nearing retirement. It's gotta be 2. Do the deal with the Giants,  Brandon.....

Edited April 3, 2018 by LABILLBACKER

[CountDorkula]

3 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

As many here are quick to point out, we backed into a wildcard spot last season with a scrub under center... All we need, is an OC with half a brain, a QB who

 

will commit to throwing downfield on a consistent basis, and a defense that can plug the run and get the QB... If we can infuse some actual TALENT into that

 

dynamic, we'll be well above average.-Especially with a QB as used to winning as AJ McCarron is.

 

 

 

 

The same AJ McCarron who took over the Cincinnati offense and drove it into the ground. The same AJ McCarron who averages less passing yards per game than Tyrod Taylor?

[Elite Poster]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

 

Just because it works one time out a hundred doesn't mean it's going to work again. 

 

Didn't they say that about the Rams???

[Augie]

1 minute ago, CountDorkula said:

The same AJ McCarron who took over the Cincinnati offense and drove it into the ground. The same AJ McCarron who averages less passing yards per game than Tyrod Taylor?

 

But he’ll be surrounded by “talent”, so he will become the next Brady! 

[MAJBobby]

39 minutes ago, SoTier said:

 

Philly was a talented team before the Eagles took a flyer on Chip Kelly, and he wasn't in charge long enough to do a total gut job on the team, so Philly already had a pretty talented team.  Even so, the Eagles went 7-9 in Wentz's first season.

 

The Bills weren't all that talented before McDermott was hired, and he proceeded to get rid of more players, including young, talented players like Watkins, Darby, Dareus, etc.  They also traded their starting QB and their starting LT, although Glenn was injured most of last season, and they lost C Eric Wood to injury/retirement.   Through trades and FA, they've only replaced a few of the players they lost, so they still have massive needs at WR and on the OL plus LB. 

 

Even if the Bills use only 1 draft pick on a QB and he develops into a quality starter, it's likely to still take them two or three years to return to the playoffs.  If they give up all of their Day 1 and Day 2 picks and some 2019 picks, too, which is what some advocate, to trade up into the top five, they are going to be doomed to more than three years of no playoffs even if the QB they pick turns out to be a quality starter.  Even greats like Brady, Brees, and Rodgers need protection and targets ... and defensive help so that they don't have to score 30+ points a game to win.

 

So Bills where not talented but make the playoffs year one of McD. 

 

Now using picks to get up to get your QB sets your team back 3 years?  What logic is that. 

14 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

Of course, Garrapolo was acquired for the lofty price of a second round pick. 

 

Yeah San Fran lucky Brady and Kraft pissed BB off 

[Thurman#1]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

Moving up is sexy, it's fun, it's what's for dinner these days. But moving up will set the team's growth back three, maybe five years. Possibly longer. This team has so many holes, that to throw away all these picks on a QB who might be good is insanity. 

 

If we can somehow move up and still have 1 2nd and 1 3rd...I'd be willing to listen. But only for Rosen or Mayfield. Trading up for any of the other QBs is insanity. Especially since Jackson has a very good chance of being there at 12. Hell, he has a good chance of being there at 22.

 

I'd rather pick an elite player at 12 - Roquan Smith, Derwin James, Vita Vea....etc. Use the rest of the picks on holes like WR, OL, DL, LB....

 

Throwing away this draft along with a first next next year? No thanks. 

 

 

NOT moving up, even if it takes too much means no Super Bowl win for probably 7 or 10 years.

 

We'd win a few more games, reach the lower levels of the playoffs, but without a franchise QB we wouldn't be good enough. We'd be the Bengals. And we'd be too good to get a good enough draft pick to get a real shot at a franchise QB. Then after four or five or six years of being pretty good but not good enough, somebody hopefully realizes what's happening and we do a complete rebuild. If we suck bad enough to get a good QB, and we build well around him, three or four or five years later we might be good enough to be competitive to win a Super Bowl.

 

Seriously. 7 - 10 years probably.

[#34fan]

35 minutes ago, What a Tuel said:

 

One of the La Canfora quotes from the other thread is that some believe there are only 17-21 true first round picks in this draft. Not sure what that means for the rest of the draft, but to me it sounds like "loading up on NFL starters" is a long shot.

 

I agree with him!  -That's why we're in a great spot being able to grab 2 1st rounders, since one may not work out...

 

It's the SECOND round picks that I really, really, REALLY, don't want to give up... That's where you can find Thurman Thomas, Michael Strahan, Drew Brees, 

 

Desean Jackson, and Anquan Boldin... That's an excellent round for generational talent.

Edited April 3, 2018 by #34fan

[KRT88]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

Moving up is sexy, it's fun, it's what's for dinner these days. But moving up will set the team's growth back three, maybe five years. Possibly longer. This team has so many holes, that to throw away all these picks on a QB who might be good is insanity. 

 

If we can somehow move up and still have 1 2nd and 1 3rd...I'd be willing to listen. But only for Rosen or Mayfield. Trading up for any of the other QBs is insanity. Especially since Jackson has a very good chance of being there at 12. Hell, he has a good chance of being there at 22.

 

I'd rather pick an elite player at 12 - Roquan Smith, Derwin James, Vita Vea....etc. Use the rest of the picks on holes like WR, OL, DL, LB....

 

Throwing away this draft along with a first next next year? No thanks. 

This is a bunch of garbage.  Phily moved up to #2, gave up a ton and they more than made the playoffs. 

 

We missed the playoffs for 17 years and most of those years we filled holes.  

 

Here's an idea, we give up a ton move to #2, pick Rosen and they AJ plays well and they trade him for  some picks.  Oh then your three year plan is out the window.  

 

Go get your guy, and give up a ton if needed, but stop doing what has been done in the past before. 

[Batman1876]

Who was the last team to make it in the playoffs and contend year in and year out without a franchise QB? We’ve had years with talented rosters and we lost games because our QB was not good. 

[Wayne Cubed]

1 minute ago, Thurman#1 said:

 

 

NOT moving up, even if it takes too much means no Super Bowl win for probably 7 or 10 years.

 

We'd win a few more games, reach the lower levels of the playoffs, but without a franchise QB we wouldn't be good enough. We'd be the Bengals. And we'd be too good to get a good enough draft pick to get a real shot at a franchise QB. Then after four or five or six years of being pretty good but not good enough, somebody hopefully realizes what's happening and we do a complete rebuild. If we suck bad enough to get a good QB, and we build well around him, three or four or five years later we might be good enough to be competitive to win a Super Bowl.

 

Seriously. 7 - 10 years probably.

 

I mean it was 17 years previously... so I think you may be underestimating.

[#34fan]

8 minutes ago, CountDorkula said:

The same AJ McCarron who took over the Cincinnati offense and drove it into the ground. The same AJ McCarron who averages less passing yards per game than Tyrod Taylor?

 

Oh please, He was backup who came in and performed his function... I'd hardly call a 2-1 starting record driving anything into the ground.

[KRT88]

1 hour ago, Domdab99 said:

 

Hey, it's possible, and I hope it works. But who is Rosen or Mayfield going to be throwing to, exactly? 

So the Rams were loaded? 

 

HMMMMMM, they signed Woods as UFA in 2017, draft Knapp, then traded for Sammy.  

 

How were they loaded in 2016 when they pock their QB, oh they had a RB, but do we?

 

They weren't loaded, they had a plan and started to execute the plan.  Get the QB!!!!

[RochesterRob]

Just now, KRT88 said:

This is a bunch of garbage.  Phily moved up to #2, gave up a ton and they more than made the playoffs. 

 

We missed the playoffs for 17 years and most of those years we filled holes.  

 

Here's an idea, we give up a ton move to #2, pick Rosen and they AJ plays well and they trade him for  some picks.  Oh then your three year plan is out the window.  

 

Go get your guy, and give up a ton if needed, but stop doing what has been done in the past before. 

  Philly had more of its pieces in place when they made that trade.  For a lot of those 17 years we used high picks on "high ceiling" guys such as Mike Williams, McCargo, Parrish, Whitner, and Maybin to name a few players who underachieved or flat out did not work out.  Why trade McCarron if he is playing at a highly productive level?  Why insert an unknown quantity into the starter's role just for the sake of doing so?

[Batman1876]

Just now, #34fan said:

 

Oh please, He was backup who came in and performed his function... I'd hardly call a 2-1 starting record driving anything into the ground.

So if he is so obviously good why was he the last FA picked and why did we get him so cheep? What do you know that the Pro Scouts missed? 

[What a Tuel]

1 minute ago, Batman1876 said:

So if he is so obviously good why was he the last FA picked and why did we get him so cheep? What do you know that the Pro Scouts missed? 

 

Its the unknown that will be great!!  

 

(I've got nothing against AJ, I look forward to him being a quality backup.)

Edited April 3, 2018 by What a Tuel

[CountDorkula]

8 minutes ago, #34fan said:

 

Oh please, He was backup who came in and performed his function... I'd hardly call a 2-1 starting record driving anything into the ground.

The majority of McCarron’s passes in the NFL so far came over his three starts at the end of the 2015 season. Over that stretch, the Bengals beat the 49ers and Ravens, each of whom finished 5-11, and lost in overtime to the eventual Super Bowl-champion Broncos.

McCarron completed 54 of his 83 passes (65.1 percent) over that stretch with four touchdowns and no interceptions. That may look impressive and was good enough for a 100.1 passer rating as a starter, but the problem was that the Bengals’ offense slowed to a crawl.

He averaged just 184 passing yards in those games, stalling an offense that averaged 376.9 yards in Dalton’s 13 starts. With McCarron at the helm for the final three games, Cincinnati averaged 276 yards and couldn’t top 300.

That continued into the postseason, where the Bengals lost 18-16 to the Steelers and were outgained 369 yards to 279.

Even during McCarron’s days at Alabama, he had a reputation as a game manager who leaned on a strong running game and an NFL-caliber cast around him. Hoping he can generate offense on his own and lead a team to points with his arm may be too much to ask.

https://www.sbnation.com/2018/3/13/17020272/aj-mccarron-nfl-free-agency-2018-cincinnati-bengals

 

so 4 TD's in 3 games with no INT's but the offense failed to move the ball consistently. hmmm.. where have i heard that before. 

Edited April 3, 2018 by CountDorkula