Darby trade

[oldmanfan]

Just now, TheElectricCompany said:

I didn't say it was, but you will never have a room full of choir boys. Every team has players with "character issues" that get away with some stuff because they are talented football players. When was Darby  accused of not being someone who worked and played hard, or in your own word, a malcontent? 

McDermott isn't going to come right out and say it.  There were rumors he did not want to get with the program.

[Doc]

21 minutes ago, dbflaBill said:

29th rated CB in the league. That would put him as a Teams #1. #1 corner IMO has more value than a 3rd round pick. 

 

As per Bleacher Report.  So take that with a grain of salt.

 

16 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

He showed excellent ability year 1, and had a bit of a sophmore slump. I chalk some of that up to the sinking ship that was Rex Ryan in 2016. 

The ability and talent to become a top tier corner is there.  

You can never have too many good pass rushers, corners and offensive playmakers. 

 

Yeah I loved how he played as a rookie and was very disappointed with his play in his 2nd season.  And it was the same scheme.

[TheElectricCompany]

11 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

McDermott isn't going to come right out and say it.  There were rumors he did not want to get with the program.

Rumors....yeah, just like the Bills trading up with the Giants. Plenty of hot air around here these days. 

I didn't follow the Eagles during the regular season, with his fractured ankle, I can't comment on how effective he was. 

 

[oldmanfan]

6 minutes ago, TheElectricCompany said:

Rumors....yeah, just like the Bills trading up with the Giants. Plenty of hot air around here these days. 

I didn't follow the Eagles during the regular season, with his fractured ankle, I can't comment on how effective he was. 

 

All we can go by.  I think McD has made it clear he thinks there's certain way to build a team and he'll be faithful to that. 

[TheElectricCompany]

2 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

All we can go by.  I think McD has made it clear he thinks there's certain way to build a team and he'll be faithful to that. 

Oh yeah, #trusttheprocess. 

This is the only move that I have disagreed with so far. 

In time, passing up Mahomes & Watson may be added to that list. 

[oldmanfan]

Just now, TheElectricCompany said:

Oh yeah, #trusttheprocess. 

This is the only move that I have disagreed with so far. 

In time, passing up Mahomes & Watson may be added to that list. 

We made the playoffs last year with a team no one predicted would be any good.  And they did so while letting some guys go to get their cap more under control.

 

What is there about their process that is bothersome?

[BillsfanAZ]

1 hour ago, dbflaBill said:

EJ has nothing to do with the trade, and hes no longer on the team. My point isn't Darby fitting a scheme. My point is holding on to him till now, and trading him now would be more valuable than getting a third round pick... Darby being part of a trade package to get into position for a top QB is more valuable than the third round pick that they have. 

You are assuming that Darby would have played well in the new defensive scheme. If he is a better man corner than a zone corner, he would not have been a stand out to be worth any more. 

[dave mcbride]

2 hours ago, snamsnoops said:

The trade was more Darby for  a 3rd. J Mathews was a throw in. It has been reported the Eagles where trying to dump J Mathews before the bills trade.

 

Did you watch Ronald Darby play last year or in the SB? He looked like hot garbage. He wasn't a zone guy which McDome was running here in B-lo, making Darby expendable.

 

 

 

But he played very well in the two previous playoff games. The fact is, Gronk is basically uncoverable. He's the most dominant TE in league history, in my opinion.

[junior]

1 hour ago, BadLandsMeanie said:

Look. It's simple. Ronald Darby shrimpy 2nd year player 23 years old, wants to run his mouth about how he feels things should be run.  He wants to disagree and express his opinion about the changes being made. 

 

You do that and you are gone. 

 

 

That is the culture change. You get with the program or the program gets rid of you. That is what the new guys think needs to be done so that the Bills don't always lose.

 

 

So it is bye Ronald good luck. Bye Sammy. Bye Marcel. And so on.

Just quoting this so more people can see. Here's the answer ^ 

[TheElectricCompany]

7 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

We made the playoffs last year with a team no one predicted would be any good.  And they did so while letting some guys go to get their cap more under control.

 

What is there about their process that is bothersome?

Sneaking into the playoffs and scoring 3 points is not the goal, the goal is to be a consistent championship contender. 

 

The process must lead to that. So far, I am OK with everything that happened except the Darby trade. As stated, I believe moving talented, young and cheap corners is the wrong move. 

 

 

[dbflaBill]

5 minutes ago, BillsfanAZ said:

You are assuming that Darby would have played well in the new defensive scheme. If he is a better man corner than a zone corner, he would not have been a stand out to be worth any more. 

You cant be good at man and not good at zone that doesnt make sense. Thats BS you hear in the media. Some CB arent good enough to play man. Example arent athletic, fast, or big enough to play 1v1 with a WR. But NFL corners are all good at zone. Teams that play zone dont blitz much. Teams that play man blitz a lot thus not having enough guys in coverage to play a zone defense. 

[oldmanfan]

5 minutes ago, dbflaBill said:

You cant be good at man and not good at zone that doesnt make sense. Thats BS you hear in the media. Some CB arent good enough to play man. Example arent athletic, fast, or big enough to play 1v1 with a WR. But NFL corners are all good at zone. Teams that play zone dont blitz much. Teams that play man blitz a lot thus not having enough guys in coverage to play a zone defense. 

Gilmore got lost in zone coverages a lot when he was here.

[SoFFacet]

I'd say we got relatively unlucky with the Darby trade so far. As far as the range of possible outcomes go, the Eagles pick being #96 and Matthews being immediately & constantly injured were fairly unlikely. On paper this is a bit of an L, but not a big one. This is Darby's 4th year, so he's on the verge of leaving and and/or being paid significant money. Shipping out players from the old regime that they didn't intend to pay has been their chief operating principle. 

[dbflaBill]

3 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

Gilmore got lost in zone coverages a lot when he was here.

How do you know he got lost? you knew the coverage? the safeties responsibilities? LB responsibilities? New England doesn't pay top dollar for a CB that cant play multiple coverages. 

[BillsfanAZ]

27 minutes ago, dbflaBill said:

You cant be good at man and not good at zone that doesnt make sense. Thats BS you hear in the media. Some CB arent good enough to play man. Example arent athletic, fast, or big enough to play 1v1 with a WR. But NFL corners are all good at zone. Teams that play zone dont blitz much. Teams that play man blitz a lot thus not having enough guys in coverage to play a zone defense. 

This is not true. Yes some players are good at both, most are not. Man guys are usually faster to keep up with the WR's....job is simple, stay with the WR and dont let him catch the ball. Zone requires corners to watch the QB, know route combinations, know when to let the WR go into the next zone while watching for other WR coming into their zone. Knowing when he can drop into someone elses zone to bracket WR's. Also zone corners are usually a little bigger and can tackle RB's. Every corner plays a little of each but some man guys are not great at zone but more zone guys cant be man guys. 

[oldmanfan]

22 minutes ago, dbflaBill said:

How do you know he got lost? you knew the coverage? the safeties responsibilities? LB responsibilities? New England doesn't pay top dollar for a CB that cant play multiple coverages. 

Fair point.  But if you watched the games there was a lot of times guys would get behind him and he'd just turn and look confused.

[simpleman]

2 hours ago, dbflaBill said:

3 hours ago, snamsnoops said:

 

http://bleacherreport.com/articles/2754252-nfl1000-ranking-the-top-outside-cornerbacks-of-2017-season                      not sure I would call the 29th best corner in the league garbage. 

 

 

 

Now let us not confuse opinions with facts.

[snamsnoops]

53 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

But he played very well in the two previous playoff games. The fact is, Gronk is basically uncoverable. He's the most dominant TE in league history, in my opinion.

Everybody has their own opinions. Mine is that we got a 3rd for a player that has regressed from his rookie season and not a good fit for our D.

 

I think Darby looked bad all season not just the reg season or SB!

[dbflaBill]

9 minutes ago, simpleman said:

 

 

Now let us not confuse opinions with facts.

show me facts that ranking is wrong.

[K-9]

He’s just not a good zone corner and was a poor scheme fit as a result. Especially in McD’s zone schemes, where so much is done   post snap. 

[Chuck Schick]

Your mind is clearly made up, which fine.... but to say that the Watkins/EJ trade isn't directly tied into the Darby/Mathews trade kind of hurts your cred.  One clearly wouldn't have happened without the other.  And that was the reality AT THE TIME....to say you'd rather now have Darby to trade, but ignore everything else isn't realistic. 

 

And of course there are CBs that are better suited at man-to-man than zone, and vice versa.   Good zone CBs are usually better at reacting to and catching the ball and making tackles in the run game, as examples.  

Edited March 22, 2018 by Chuck Schick

[K-9]

50 minutes ago, Chuck Schick said:

Your mind is clearly made up, which fine.... but to say that the Watkins/EJ trade isn't directly tied into the Darby/Mathews trade kind of hurts your cred.  One clearly wouldn't have happened without the other.  And that was the reality AT THE TIME....to say you'd rather now have Darby to trade, but ignore everything else isn't realistic. 

 

And of course there are CBs that are better suited at man-to-man than zone, and vice versa.   Good zone CBs are usually better at reacting to and catching the ball and making tackles in the run game, as examples.  

This has always been true. It's almost surprising the amount of CBs over the years that were good at one and not the other. I can count on one hand the CBs that were/are just as adept at either. 

 

Another point regarding scheme fit for McD's zone schemes, is his preference for taller, longer players which was another factor in making Darby expendable. Zone is much more challenging to play than man; just a lot more moving parts. 

[Logic]

McDermott needs very specific things from his cornerbacks.

Ideally, they should be long, strong, have a big wingspan, good "zone eyes", and be willing tacklers.

Whether you agree or disagree, McDermott and co seem to have concluded that Darby didn't fit the mold, so they moved on and got what they could in return.

Me personally? I'm fine with the trade. Getting a 3rd back for a guy of Darby's caliber -- when players like JPP and Marcus Peters and Robert Quinn got traded for less -- seems like great value.

[formerlyofCtown]

You have to pay attention to the whole market.  Who do you want in a trade, Darby or Peters and Talib.

Peters 2019 2nd and 2018 4th

Talib 2018 5th round

This draft is loaded with DBs

They got great value for Darby because DC and scheme familiarity.

[Alphadawg7]

6 hours ago, dbflaBill said:

Any one else think that they traded Darby too soon, and the return wasnt really worth it. Having Darby now would be a more valuable trade piece than the 3rd round pick they got in return. In fact I believe the Bills could probably get a 1 for him if he were on the Roster right now. At the very least a swap of ones like the Glenn trade. Essentially the Bills "traded" mathews (no longer on the team) and Darby for a 3.  I believe Beane really swung and missed on this trade, and it could really come back and bite them. 

 

I would have preferred to have kept Darby, but I don't think the compensation was bad when we did the trade.  

[K-9]

6 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

You have to pay attention to the whole market.  Who do you want in a trade, Darby or Peters and Talib.

Peters 2019 2nd and 2018 4th

Talib 2018 5th round

This draft is loaded with DBs

They got great value for Darby because DC and scheme familiarity.

DC and scheme familiarity? With whom, Philly? Because he never played a down in Schwartz's previously. 

[formerlyofCtown]

3 minutes ago, K-9 said:

DC and scheme familiarity? With whom, Philly? Because he never played a down in Schwartz's previously. 

My bad you're right

4 minutes ago, K-9 said:

DC and scheme familiarity? With whom, Philly? Because he never played a down in Schwartz's previously. 

 

[JMF2006]

6 hours ago, dbflaBill said:

EJ has nothing to do with the trade, and hes no longer on the team. My point isn't Darby fitting a scheme. My point is holding on to him till now, and trading him now would be more valuable than getting a third round pick... Darby being part of a trade package to get into position for a top QB is more valuable than the third round pick that they have. 

 

I am happy they got more than a bag of deflated footballs for him

 

If he wasn't happy last year was the proper time to trade him.

[K-9]

16 minutes ago, formerlyofCtown said:

My bad you're right

 

[Doc]

The Eagles should be actively shopping Darby.  He's in the last year of his deal and there's probably no way they can afford to pay him what he'll be looking for on the market next year. 

[artmalibu]

7 hours ago, dbflaBill said:

 In fact I believe the Bills could probably get a 1 for him if he were on the Roster right now. 

 

 

Your crazy, put the crack pipe down!!!

[LABILLBACKER]

10 hours ago, Chuck Wagon said:

No,  essentially the Bills traded Watkins & Darby for Mathews, EJ Gaines, 2nd round pick, 3rd round pick.  

if we can resign Gaines it was worth it...

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

I liked Darby.  

Hope he has a good career. 

 

 

[KW95 - JA17]

Seriously, he's a terrible SB winner! 

 

Not only that, he got squeezed in to defend man to man against Gronk a few times.  Guess what.  Any cornerback is losing that battle.

 

23 years old, came back from a major injury, Super Bowl champ.  Id love to have me some of that!  I think White and Darby would be good together!  Even though he looks like a Giraffe.

[NoSaint]

6 hours ago, formerlyofCtown said:

You have to pay attention to the whole market.  Who do you want in a trade, Darby or Peters and Talib.

Peters 2019 2nd and 2018 4th

Talib 2018 5th round

This draft is loaded with DBs

They got great value for Darby because DC and scheme familiarity.

 

While you get there’s a bigger picture, you are neglecting that Darby is dirt cheap for multiple years which helps his value quite a bit.

[BringBackOrton]

7 hours ago, K-9 said:

This has always been true. It's almost surprising the amount of CBs over the years that were good at one and not the other. I can count on one hand the CBs that were/are just as adept at either. 

 

Another point regarding scheme fit for McD's zone schemes, is his preference for taller, longer players which was another factor in making Darby expendable. Zone is much more challenging to play than man; just a lot more moving parts. 

More challenging from a cerebral standpoint.  I don't believe it's as physically challenging, in terms of needing as much athleticism.

[K-9]

3 minutes ago, jmc12290 said:

More challenging from a cerebral standpoint.  I don't believe it's as physically challenging, in terms of needing as much athleticism.

Of course, he has all the athleticism necessary, although, as said earlier, he doesn't fit McD's preference for tall CBs with length. 

 

As to the cerebral aspects of the position, CB is by far the easiest position on the field to master; the playbook section for CBs is the shortest in the book. Especially where man coverage is concerned. But zones do require an entire mastery of the various coverage areas and knowing where everyone else is in relation to your position. Proper depths and drop angles are critical as well, kind of akin to a wideout that needs to run precise routes in relation to all the other receivers and needs to make sure his mistaken routes aren't running defenders into another area, etc. 

[formerlyofCtown]

7 hours ago, NoSaint said:

 

While you get there’s a bigger picture, you are neglecting that Darby is dirt cheap for multiple years which helps his value quite a bit.

No I get that but rookies in a deep class are cheap as well. I would give pick 65 for him after how he played well this past season but I would take Talib and Peters at less than a first before I took him for a first. Especially when Peters is on the cheap as well at the moment.

Edited March 23, 2018 by formerlyofCtown

[Thurman#1]

21 hours ago, dbflaBill said:

Any one else think that they traded Darby too soon, and the return wasnt really worth it. Having Darby now would be a more valuable trade piece than the 3rd round pick they got in return. In fact I believe the Bills could probably get a 1 for him if he were on the Roster right now. At the very least a swap of ones like the Glenn trade. Essentially the Bills "traded" mathews (no longer on the team) and Darby for a 3.  I believe Beane really swung and missed on this trade, and it could really come back and bite them. 

 

 

I liked Darby a lot.

 

There are some folks who think he doesn't fit the McD scheme, that he's mostly a man coverage guy. I'm not sure I buy that, but maybe.

 

But the bottom line was that they needed trade bait for a QB and they needed to clear salary cap space and knew he was going to cost a ton to re-sign. The return was worth it, though it turned out Matthews was injured and was never right. That was a shame. Might they have gotten more this off-season? Maybe. If he hadn't fit this defense, maybe not.

 

I've been constantly harping on about the salary cap and how it was causing us more problems than people were wanting to admit. Now it's out that Beane had promised the Pegulas to get it under control and handled by this year. That took a ton of moves, some of which hurt in the short term. This was one of them and we at least got a valuable pick out of it.

 

Not to mention that the secondary was excellent last year without Darby.

Edited March 23, 2018 by Thurman#1

[McBean]

We got a 3rd rounder for a guy who got torched all last season.

 

What are you talking about?