Scout on Rudolph

[youthemanog]

Look who is number 10. I told you guys he is a flash in a pan. His senior bowl game was awful

[billykay]

I admit that I have only seen Rudolph play once & I have also seen video hi lites. I know that the hi lites aren't the best way to evaluate a QB, but one can easily see that Rudolph definitely does not have a week arm. Is he Elway? No. But his arm looks adequate for the pro game.

[Dr. Who]

12 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Would you still see going to 3 or 4 if Rosen and Darnold are gone in the top 2 picks? If so, who is the target??? 

Baker Mayfield.  

[Kirby Jackson]

16 minutes ago, Augie said:

 

Would you still see going to 3 or 4 if Rosen and Darnold are gone in the top 2 picks? If so, who is the target??? 

Baker would be the target (although I think he is going 1 to Cleveland). 

[DCOrange]

12 minutes ago, billykay said:

I admit that I have only seen Rudolph play once & I have also seen video hi lites. I know that the hi lites aren't the best way to evaluate a QB, but one can easily see that Rudolph definitely does not have a week arm. Is he Elway? No. But his arm looks adequate for the pro game.

 

Eh, his arm strength is definitely questionable. If you watch his game film, you'll see a lot of Peterman-esq passes that just float out to the sideline and are ripe for INTs if not for his WRs being amazing. Even his highlights you'll see his deep ball hang in the air a ton and force his WRs to basically box the corner/safety out to catch the ball.

[JohnC]

29 minutes ago, Kirby Jackson said:

Baker would be the target (although I think he is going 1 to Cleveland). 

I see Darnold being their first choice with Mayfield being their second choice. I'm sure there will be some competing preferences in the front office but in the end if they keep their first pick they would in my opinion select Darnold. What I find to be very plausible is with their next high pick they could deal it off and still get a desirable  high end back and some other good additions. 

[The_Dude]

I can’t help but think ‘why don’t we get ourselves a a scheme where Rudolph can throw for 4000 yards here?’

 

”scheme” is a scouting cop out. 

[1st&ten]

4 hours ago, John from Hemet said:

Its certainly better then ghost "scouts" who wont even put their name on their evaluation

 

Mayock sits out front and center for everyone to see....and is more often right then he is wrong

 

I agree. I often wonder if these no name scouts aren't just trying to devalue a player for their team's benefit.

[billsredneck1]

everybody seems to have an opinion and thinks they are right. i would take my own guesses here ,but i'll stick with what i know will be for sure.....

 

things will go as nobody predicted.

trades will be made.

the draft order will be scrambled.

the fo will do something that no one saw coming.

 

then we go to ota's.

 

all i know is that my hope and expectation for this team this year is nothing short of commanding a wc spot if not take the division...(thank you nick foles!)....

[FearLess Price]

5 hours ago, John from Hemet said:

This is all assuming that Mahommes actually ends up being a good NFL quarterback.....which he did not show last year....people can say he sat behind Smith for the year but the fact is if he was beating him out in camp and practice he would be playing.

 

On the other hand.....they did get an immediate starter and one of the best rookie players out of the draft in Tre White.

 

Even if he only ends up being a mid level starter.....it would still be a win.   There is no guarantee ANY of these guys are gonna be top 5 guys

 

 

Everyone knew coming out the draft that Mahomes needed work. The arm talent is there.

 

Chances are hes gonna be a solid starter and maybe even a shade of Aaron Rodgers down the line.

 

You cant even really make an opinion of him now other than he finally got that back leg to calm down and stop doing the skanky leg during plays lol.

 

His teammates are high on him and Andy Reid who watches him in practice believes in him enough to trade Alex Smith. 

 

He was great in pre season and decent vs a vanilla denver defense.

Kid is going to be good. The arrows pointing up.

 

[1st&ten]

2 hours ago, Call_Of_Ktulu said:

I think it might take a year or two but I see Luke Falk being one of the top QB's from this draft.

Don't mention him, we already know that NE will take him in the 3rd round. he'll sit for a year & half-----Brady gets injured & he becomes the next great QB.

[BuffaloFan68]

I just want to throw out there that anyone that says Rudolph has a weak arm hasn't really watched him themselves. - Is it Mahomes strong, no - but he can make all the throws. 

Let's Go Buffalo!!!!!

[DCOrange]

9 hours ago, BuffaloFan68 said:

I just want to throw out there that anyone that says Rudolph has a weak arm hasn't really watched him themselves. - Is it Mahomes strong, no - but he can make all the throws. 

Let's Go Buffalo!!!!!

 

I've probably watched around 15 of Rudolph's games and think he has a weak arm. I mean, it isn't Kellen Moore level bad or anything, but it's similar to Peterman in terms of arm strength, which is to say, it'll almost definitely hurt his chances of succeeding in the NFL.

 

He could theoretically become a good player in spite of that, but his arm strength will definitely limit the types of passes he can make.

[racketmaster]

I like trying to find comparisons with quarterbacks coming out of the draft. With Rudolph, the one quarterback I keep coming back to that he seems similar to is Philip Rivers. They have very similar size and movement skills. Also, very similar college careers in the amount of games, production and how old they were coming into the draft. This is my high end comparison for Rudolph as I think Rivers had a little more zip on the ball coming out of college. However, with Rivers there were a bunch of questions about his delivery and his arm strength going into the draft. Arm strength is my biggest concern with Rudolph. If he can check that box off during the combine and pro day, I would be all in on drafting this kid. Like Rivers, Rudolph will not hurt you with his legs but they both move around well in the pocket. 

[BigBuff423]

9 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

I've probably watched around 15 of Rudolph's games and think he has a weak arm. I mean, it isn't Kellen Moore level bad or anything, but it's similar to Peterman in terms of arm strength, which is to say, it'll almost definitely hurt his chances of succeeding in the NFL.

 

He could theoretically become a good player in spite of that, but his arm strength will definitely limit the types of passes he can make.

 

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. There are constant views / video of him making easy 50 yard throws...there aren't a many "tight window" throws, but they're there and the fewer amount of them is just based on the Offense he played in....but, to say he has a weak arm, is completely false IMHO.

[racketmaster]

19 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

I've probably watched around 15 of Rudolph's games and think he has a weak arm. I mean, it isn't Kellen Moore level bad or anything, but it's similar to Peterman in terms of arm strength, which is to say, it'll almost definitely hurt his chances of succeeding in the NFL.

 

He could theoretically become a good player in spite of that, but his arm strength will definitely limit the types of passes he can make.

That really is the million dollar question with Rudolph. He checks pretty much every other box you are looking for in a quarterback. 

8 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. There are constant views / video of him making easy 50 yard throws...there aren't a many "tight window" throws, but they're there and the fewer amount of them is just based on the Offense he played in....but, to say he has a weak arm, is completely false IMHO.

Compared to the other top quarterbacks, his ball velocity (especially on sideline throws) is clearly weaker than Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield and Allen. It is almost unfair when I watch an Allen game followed by a Rudolph game. The difference between the two is huge. That said, Rudolph has a ton of positive characteristics and he may be able to overcome not having the biggest arm.

 

I remember Rivers telling a story about when he was going through the draft process. He was asked by the Packers how strong his arm was (there were some arm strength questions about him going into the draft) and his reply was "Strong Enough". That is the question with Rudolph is his arm "Strong Enough".

Edited February 13, 2018 by racketmaster

[BigBuff423]

12 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

That really is the million dollar question with Rudolph. He checks pretty much every other box you are looking for in a quarterback. 

Compared to the other top quarterbacks, his ball velocity (especially on sideline throws) is clearly weaker than Darnold, Rosen, Mayfield and Allen. It is almost unfair when I watch an Allen game followed by a Rudolph game. The difference between the two is huge. That said, Rudolph has a ton of positive characteristics and he may be able to overcome not having the biggest arm.

 

I remember Rivers telling a story about when he was going through the draft process. He was asked by the Packers how strong his arm was (there were some arm strength questions about him going into the draft) and his reply was "Strong Enough". That is the question with Rudolph is his arm "Strong Enough".

 

All things considered, to me *this* is the exact type of thing the Combine is good for....when you see the video, you see a well-qualified NFL QB Rookie ready to take the next step...but, can his arm make it? I personally think he can, because plenty of good to great QBs didn't have "the arm" coming into the NFL but were good enough and eventually no one even thought about it once they started producing and winning. 

[DCOrange]

8 minutes ago, BigBuff423 said:

 

I'm sorry, but I strongly disagree. There are constant views / video of him making easy 50 yard throws...there aren't a many "tight window" throws, but they're there and the fewer amount of them is just based on the Offense he played in....but, to say he has a weak arm, is completely false IMHO.

 

Throwing the ball far is only one part of arm strength. He's incapable of making deep throws on a rope; he can only make them putting a ton of air under it. He was a proficient deep ball thrower in college, but how much of this was having 2 or 3 WRs that are extremely talented at outjumping their man/the scheme allowing his WRs to slip in behind the defense? In the NFL, a lot of the deep balls he throws will give the safety enough time to come over and make a play on the ball.

 

If you watch his throws to the sidelines, they hang in the air the same way Peterman's did this year in the NFL. It's going to be very difficult for him to throw a deep out in the NFL. If he succeeds, it'll likely be from attacking the middle of the field in the short-intermediate range IMO; I don't think the rest of his game will translate very well.

[racketmaster]

7 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

Throwing the ball far is only one part of arm strength. He's incapable of making deep throws on a rope; he can only make them putting a ton of air under it. He was a proficient deep ball thrower in college, but how much of this was having 2 or 3 WRs that are extremely talented at outjumping their man/the scheme allowing his WRs to slip in behind the defense? In the NFL, a lot of the deep balls he throws will give the safety enough time to come over and make a play on the ball.

 

If you watch his throws to the sidelines, they hang in the air the same way Peterman's did this year in the NFL. It's going to be very difficult for him to throw a deep out in the NFL. If he succeeds, it'll likely be from attacking the middle of the field in the short-intermediate range IMO; I don't think the rest of his game will translate very well.

I agree with the air time on his deep ball. But that is another thing I believe Rudolph has in common with Rivers. I have always felt that Rivers has a lot of air time with his deep balls but they get to their intended target more often than not. But what needs to be considered is the cities they play for. Rivers has played in San Diego and now LA. Rudolph would be in Buffalo where the wind and cold will be a much bigger factor, especially late in the season. That extra air time could be a much bigger negative based on location of where they will play most of their games.

[DCOrange]

2 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

I agree with the air time on his deep ball. But that is another thing I believe Rudolph has in common with Rivers. I have always felt that Rivers has a lot of air time with his deep balls but they get to their intended target more often than not. But what needs to be considered is the cities they play for. Rivers has played in San Diego and now LA. Rudolph would be in Buffalo where the wind and cold will be a much bigger factor, especially late in the season. That extra air time could be a much bigger negative based on location of where they will play most of their games.

 

Yeah, I agree with that. Rivers is also a much more precise thrower than Rudolph is (not even a knock against Rudolph really...Prime Rivers was an incredible precision passer). If you can place the ball where you want to, you can survive with the extra air time. Rudolph isn't as inaccurate as Josh Allen for example, but he does leave a lot of his deep balls short and he doesn't seem to take the short passes seriously enough; watching his film, you'll see him not even try to get his feet set a lot on the shorter throws. I definitely think he has the potential to improve his accuracy in the NFL, but we'll see.

 

I'm personally not comfortable taking a guy in the 1st round if he has, IMO, below average arm strength and average ball placement. If he slips to like the 3rd round, I'd be fine with it. 2nd is still a little high for my liking personally, but I'm lower on him than most.

[racketmaster]

32 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

 

Yeah, I agree with that. Rivers is also a much more precise thrower than Rudolph is (not even a knock against Rudolph really...Prime Rivers was an incredible precision passer). If you can place the ball where you want to, you can survive with the extra air time. Rudolph isn't as inaccurate as Josh Allen for example, but he does leave a lot of his deep balls short and he doesn't seem to take the short passes seriously enough; watching his film, you'll see him not even try to get his feet set a lot on the shorter throws. I definitely think he has the potential to improve his accuracy in the NFL, but we'll see.

 

I'm personally not comfortable taking a guy in the 1st round if he has, IMO, below average arm strength and average ball placement. If he slips to like the 3rd round, I'd be fine with it. 2nd is still a little high for my liking personally, but I'm lower on him than most.

To me, Rudolph appears to have good accuracy when he is able to step into his throws (like most quarterbacks). He struggles more when he is off platform or falling back because he does not have the big arm to compensate and some of his throws end up coming up short. Because teams are desperate for quarterbacks and there appears to be so many qb needy teams this year or teams looking toward the future (NE, BAL, CIN, SD, NYG etc.), quarterbacks will be going much earlier than they should. I don't see Rudolph lasting past the 2nd round and if I had to bet he will likely end up in the first. My guess is that he will interview exceptionally well and there will be some teams (maybe the Bills) that move on him earlier than his pure talent would suggest. 

[DCOrange]

2 minutes ago, racketmaster said:

To me, Rudolph appears to have good accuracy when he is able to step into his throws (like most quarterbacks). He struggles more when he is off platform or falling back because he does not have the big arm to compensate and some of his throws end up coming up short. Because teams are desperate for quarterbacks and there appears to be so many qb needy teams this year or teams looking toward the future (NE, BAL, CIN, SD, NYG etc.), quarterbacks will be going much earlier than they should. I don't see Rudolph lasting past the 2nd round and if I had to bet he will likely end up in the first. My guess is that he will interview exceptionally well and there will be some teams (maybe the Bills) that move on him earlier than his pure talent would suggest. 

 

Yeah, I think the ability to step into his throws is really big for him too. I'm really interested to see where he ends up. It only takes one team to like him enough to take him at the end of the 1st or in the 2nd round; it wouldn't surprise me if that ends up being the case.

[BigBuff423]

1 hour ago, DCOrange said:

 

Throwing the ball far is only one part of arm strength. He's incapable of making deep throws on a rope; he can only make them putting a ton of air under it. He was a proficient deep ball thrower in college, but how much of this was having 2 or 3 WRs that are extremely talented at outjumping their man/the scheme allowing his WRs to slip in behind the defense? In the NFL, a lot of the deep balls he throws will give the safety enough time to come over and make a play on the ball.

 

If you watch his throws to the sidelines, they hang in the air the same way Peterman's did this year in the NFL. It's going to be very difficult for him to throw a deep out in the NFL. If he succeeds, it'll likely be from attacking the middle of the field in the short-intermediate range IMO; I don't think the rest of his game will translate very well.

 

I respect your opinion, but we're just viewing the video differently. I've watched loads of throws he's made - deep throws, deep out throws, over the middle, far hash to sideline throws, and all of them are NFL "good enough". No one is confusing his arm strength with Josh Allen, but even among the elite, Josh's is elite....but Rudy's arm strength is NFL quality. The Combine will show that. He's not going to set the world on fire, but it will get the job done. 

 

As for receivers making him look good, to me that's an overplayed narrative. Yes, they do a fantastic job and they certainly get tons of YAC, and they also compete for jump balls. But to attribute the majority of his success to that, is again ignoring what my eyes tell me. I see ball placement in terrific spots, I see receivers able to get YAC because he places the ball that leads the receivers, I see balls dropped in the basket for the receiver to catch, and I see plenty of throws in tight coverage that are on the money, especially in the Red Zone. 

 

Now, where I tend to detract from his game are his fumbles and holding the ball the way he does when he starts to get pushed and moving outside the pocket. But watch enough of his video and we can see him stand in the pocket and take hit AND deliver the ball. He is the quintessential pocket passing QB, mobile enough to move around, but not fast and certainly not going to use him in bootlegs that often. So, instead of going back and forth, I think this is the part where we agree to disagree and believe that our eyes are telling us both something very different. 

[KDIGGZ]

I said it back in Sept. Watch Rudolph's games then watch Bryce Petty in college. They might be the same person. Makes me nervous. Rudolph did have slightly better stats, more experience, improved each year, and is 1 inch taller. But when I watch them play I can't get that comparison out of my head.

 

It's a really tough call. If he had played in the senior bowl it would have answered a lot of questions about him. We needed to see him under center and reading defenses in a pro style offense. It's tough because he just looks like a QB so it gets me excited. He looks like Dan Marino at times. But then you watch Bryce Petty and you are like oh poo it's the same bs offense with 1 read and a lot of bombs to wide open receivers. Whoever is interested in him will really need to put him through his paces with a private workout

[Socal-805]

 

 

Buffalo's biggest problem re: the QB position and the draft over the last 20 years is, refusing to draft a QB when they having nothing and THEN holding onto a poor

QB too many years HOPING he will improve.

 

IF you take a guy and he doesn't work out, move on and draft another guy.

 

See Denver Broncos.

 

 

 

[Dkollidas]

On 2/13/2018 at 11:02 AM, kdiggz said:

I said it back in Sept. Watch Rudolph's games then watch Bryce Petty in college. They might be the same person. Makes me nervous. Rudolph did have slightly better stats, more experience, improved each year, and is 1 inch taller. But when I watch them play I can't get that comparison out of my head.

 

It's a really tough call. If he had played in the senior bowl it would have answered a lot of questions about him. We needed to see him under center and reading defenses in a pro style offense. It's tough because he just looks like a QB so it gets me excited. He looks like Dan Marino at times. But then you watch Bryce Petty and you are like oh poo it's the same bs offense with 1 read and a lot of bombs to wide open receivers. Whoever is interested in him will really need to put him through his paces with a private workout

 

I see your point. But I’m also hoping we’ll have a staff that can coach to strengths. And I think Rudolph is better than Petty, and will need a lot of shotgun, especially to start.  I know that’s not necessarily “pro-style”, but look at how often Brady is in shotgun. And look at what McVay was doing for Goff, basically calling the plays AND audibles from the sidelines. 

 

Foles came from an air-raid. As did Keenum. Mahomes as well. 

 

Im just not as scared of the “spread” guys because it’s becoming more and more of a spread league. 

 

This is from an article by Jared Dublin of CBS sports (granted 2015 publishing date, but it’s still repevant):

 

“NFL coaches have also known this would happen for a good, long while. Bill Walsh, the Godfather of the West Coast Offense, wrote the following in his book, Finding the Winning Edge, about the future of NFL offenses:

• Teams will huddle only when the clock is stopped.
• Teams will use single-world offensive audibles.
• The quarterback will receive direction from the coach at the line of scrimmage. Because the ball can be put into play at any moment, the defense must commit itself with its front and coverage.
• The quarterback will look to the sideline the instant the whistle blows on the previous play to see which personnel combination is entering the game. The designated coach indicates the formation to the quarterback and whether he should audible his own play or will receive a play call from the coach. All of these steps will occur without a huddle.
• The quarterback will have even more latitude in audibling at the line of scrimmage. His decisions will override those by the coach signaling in a play call.

That sounds a whole lot like the spread, no-huddle offense run by, say, the Patriots, who famously use a one-word system for calling plays when they do go no-huddle that Belichick adopted from college offenses. That certainly makes it easier to communicate the calls, and it again gives Brady more time to read the defense at the line of scrimmage without having to blurt out a mouthful of a play call.”

 

 

[YattaOkasan]

On 2/13/2018 at 12:17 PM, Socal-805 said:

 

 

Buffalo's biggest problem re: the QB position and the draft over the last 20 years is, refusing to draft a QB when they having nothing and THEN holding onto a poor

QB too many years HOPING he will improve.

 

IF you take a guy and he doesn't work out, move on and draft another guy.

 

See Denver Broncos.

 

 

 

What about Broncos am i supposed to see?  They haven’t hit on a QB yet.  If anything they would be the get an elite defense and FA QB example right?  I get that they are drafting and moving on quickly but I’m not seeing that being successful at all yet. 

[NastyNateSoldiers]

On 2/12/2018 at 7:59 PM, K-9 said:

Posted in the Mayock/WGR thread, but it bears reposting here:

 

I like Mayock for what he brings in his role as a media analyst, but that’s as far as it goes. He is not a scout and doesn’t possess a fraction of the insight on all these players as scouts and other personnel evaluators do. It’s just not his full time gig. I take everything he says with a grain of salt. From Sanchez over Stafford to Gabbert over Newton and the many players at positions in between over the years, his “evaluations” leave a lot to be desired. 

 

I beg to differ he's turned down GM jobs to stay with NFL network.  

[FeelingOnYouboty]

I see why people like Rudolph because he has three years experience, great size and production but has anyone watched him play. He's a one read QB and was surrounded by two Top 50 picks and a future 1st Round RB, in an inflated system in a conference that doesn't care about defense.

[Jamie Muellers Ghost]

Rudolph is Trepasso's favorite QB in the draft. Chris has a pretty good rep for talent evaluation IMO. He was on WGR this morning.

 

http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/02-15-howard-and-jeremy-show-hr-4-feat-chris-trapasso

Edited February 15, 2018 by Jamie Muellers Ghost

[DCOrange]

23 minutes ago, Jamie Muellers Ghost said:

Rudolph is Trepasso's favorite QB in the draft. Chris has a pretty good rep for talent evaluation IMO. He was on WGR this morning.

 

http://www.wgr550.com/media/audio-channel/02-15-howard-and-jeremy-show-hr-4-feat-chris-trapasso

 

Does he? I know Reddit's NFL Draft sub-reddit has banned CBS links because of the fact that Trapasso is the lead guy there now lol

 

I know we like Trapasso since he came from Buffalo Rumblings but I don't think he's respected nearly as much outside of Bills fans.

[BuffaloHokie13]

3 minutes ago, DCOrange said:

Does he? I know Reddit's NFL Draft sub-reddit has banned CBS links because of the fact that Trapasso is the lead guy there now lol

 

I know we like Trapasso since he came from Buffalo Rumblings but I don't think he's respected nearly as much outside of Bills fans.

As a Bills fan I find his opinions pretty odd. Also, based on his newest mock the Bills are staying put and passing on Rudolph (and QB in general) at 21 & 22. It's almost as if he put Rudolph first to start to generate clicks because it was different.

[BuffaloBillsGospel]

On 2/12/2018 at 12:23 PM, Hapless Bills Fan said:

 

 

In the BR article they cut to the bottom line:

"The issue with grading quarterbacks for the entire league (media) and not just one team is that flaws in a player's game might make him an awful fit for some teams and fine for others. If you want an athletic quarterback that can move, Rudolph isn't your guy. "

 

A lot of the real questions in QB evaluation aren't questions that the media in general can answer, and possibly not the "Scout" quoted anonymously either: What's his head like?  What kind of understanding does he have of pro-level defenses and how to read them? 

 

I don't see the 'weak arm' thing.  My concern is how often does he progress in his reads and throw into tight windows?  In the film clips I've seen, he does it, but you have to dig deep to find it.  Is that just because those throws may not be flashy "deep bomb" TD highlights, or is it because he doesn't do it enough?  Second concern is, I wasn't able to build a sense that he can feel pressure and adjust in the pocket.  I think that classic pocket passers who lack that sense get hurt in the NFL (eg Bradford)

 

 

 

That article is a terrible response imo, aren't you supposed to take the best player available and scheme around that players strengths, especially the QB? I mean Russell Wilson and Dak Prescott both come to mind right off the bat, Lamar jackson will be the same way. You scheme fit these QB's and put them in the best situation to succeed.

[BigBuff423]

1 hour ago, BuffaloHokie13 said:

As a Bills fan I find his opinions pretty odd. Also, based on his newest mock the Bills are staying put and passing on Rudolph (and QB in general) at 21 & 22. It's almost as if he put Rudolph first to start to generate clicks because it was different.

 

But to be fair, in the article he specifically said he would slot Rudolph at 21 but just for the sake of "seeing what happens", he went off script to see how it altered the Draft, only to have Rudy going to Steelers and compared him to Big Ben, absent the arm strength. 

 

And he also addressed in the interview that he didn't put Rudy as QB1 just for "click bait", his words....but went on to explain why he had Rudy as the top QB, all with good reasons and addressed the fact that Rudy doesn't have the arm that Allen or Rosen have, but explained why he had Rudy as QB1....not that it matters, but it's the same thing I've been saying since December.