Lawson was Benched, was he another first round bust?

[Bing Bong]

Honestly I don't know much about Shaq's game so far. Loved him in the Panthers game, but I'll concede.

[BuffaloRush]

1 minute ago, PetermanThrew5Picks said:

Honestly I don't know much about Shaq's game so far. Loved him in the Panthers game, but I'll concede.

 

That was his best game of the season. 

 

IMO I think that 1st round picks have to be very good players and solid contributors on your defense.  You said if Shaq was a "serviceable starter" you think Whaley did good?  I hold 1st round picks to a higher standard.  Of course, the draft is a crap shoot but you have to hit your high draft picks and Whaley did not do this.  You can find serviceable starters in the mid-round of the draft or in free agency.  But if your 1st round picks aren't going to be better than serviceable, you're likely a 6-10 team which is what the Bills have been 

[Bing Bong]

3 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

#WhaleyApologist

Lol sure I am a Whaley apologist, I already said I like him. Who cares.

 

My point is if a new GM comes in next year and trades Tre White and the entire draft class for lower round picks, does that mean McBeane is a bad GM? By your logic it does.

[reddogblitz]

4 minutes ago, BuffaloRush said:

 

That was his best game of the season. 

 

IMO I think that 1st round picks have to be very good players and solid contributors on your defense.  You said if Shaq was a "serviceable starter" you think Whaley did good?  I hold 1st round picks to a higher standard.  Of course, the draft is a crap shoot but you have to hit your high draft picks and Whaley did not do this.  You can find serviceable starters in the mid-round of the draft or in free agency.  But if your 1st round picks aren't going to be better than serviceable, you're likely a 6-10 team which is what the Bills have been 

 

Bills haven't been 6-10 since 2013.

[GreggTX]

There's no question that Shaq's performance is a major disappointment, but we have so many other needs that I don't see an upgrade at LDE coming this offseason. Other than Hughes, our front 7 is a wreck. There are other needs as well as franchise QB.

[JerseyBills]

6 hours ago, Kingston Bills Fan said:

Shaq has been disappointing all year now he was benched for who knows what reason (probably performance) we let Ragland go but maybe it was Shaq we should have let go. Our Dline is needs a lot of help in the draft! 

Either way DT isn’t our only need on the D-line.

 

https://www.buffalorumblings.com/2017/11/27/16705854/shaw-lawson-didnt-start-vs-kansas-city-chiefs-for-unknown-punishment-sean-mcdermott

He had a solid game. Was out there with Hughes and Thorton on final 2 plays.

Bills were in 3-3-5

Alexander blitzed last play , sending four.

He's still getting plenty of playing time

[Fadingpain]

3 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

He was a Rex guy.

 

I'm surprised he's still on the team.

He was definitely a Rex guy; so far it is fair to say he has been a disappointment.

 

When the new regime are done molding the team in their image and have had a few drafts/years to modify personnel (they've already done a ton of changing) I think Shaq will not be retained in the mix.

[ganesh]

9 hours ago, Houston's #1 Bills Fan said:

From another article, it sounds like a discipline issue with McBeane.

Coach gets to decide on discipline

[8-8 Forever?]

9 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He was benched for disciplinary reasons. McDermott said as much today. He’s been good against the run. Teams have run right up the middle.

 

With that being said, he has certainly been disappointing as a first round pick. He lacks explosiveness as a pass rusher. Shaq is a plugger. 

He was drafted into Rex's scheme- disguised blitz defense .  he wasn't drafted to be a mano a mano sack artist, as Rex's defense doesn't pressure the QB that way.   In Rex's scheme, the sacker is usually disguised as a dropper -- could be anyone .   Just like Ragland was drafted as a 3-4 inside LB thumper (another Rex defense idea).    This years defense bears zero resemblence to last years so none of Rex's picks fit it.   McD plays zone, Rex wanted man cover guys.   totally different.   Really sucks when they blow it all up.   this is what you get -- all kinds of misfit parts.   but on balance, going back to straight up front 4 pressure/traditional extra man blitzes , etc.,  with zone behind it works better in todays NFL -- not much to look at , but it works better.  

Edited November 28, 2017 by 8-8 Forever?

[Kirby Jackson]

28 minutes ago, 8-8 Forever? said:

He was drafted into Rex's scheme- disguised blitz defense .  he wasn't drafted to be a mano a mano sack artist, as Rex's defense doesn't pressure the QB that way.   In Rex's scheme, the sacker is usually disguised as a dropper -- could be anyone .   Just like Ragland was drafted as a 3-4 inside LB thumper (another Rex defense idea).    This years defense bears zero resemblence to last years so none of Rex's picks fit it.   McD plays zone, Rex wanted man cover guys.   totally different.   Really sucks when they blow it all up.   this is what you get -- all kinds of misfit parts.   but on balance, going back to straight up front 4 pressure/traditional extra man blitzes , etc.,  with zone behind it works better in todays NFL -- not much to look at , but it works better.  

As a prospect though Shaq was a traditional 4-3 DE. He was diverse enough to play in Rex’s scheme but this scheme was thought to be a better fit. 

[SlimShady'sSpaceForce]

McD and Dareus had a talk and a few weeks later..... 

 

McD and Shaq had a talk and a few weeks later.....   (time will tell)

[Best Player Available]

7 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

He was a Rex guy.

 

I'm surprised he's still on the team.

Maybe he can seal the edge. So can some of the other less hearlded DE's. I just don't see a long career in Buffalo for him. Unless he can develop some better pass rushing skills. He is more of a Rex guy than Whaley.  

[hemma]

His quick twitch reminds me a little bit of Kyle Orton.

[Bleeding Bills Blue]

He seems to be around the ball a lot, and always finishing plays.  I have no problem with the player - i don't think he's like... a dominant first round pick.  But he seems to care and play hard.

[JohnC]

12 hours ago, Kirby Jackson said:

He was benched for disciplinary reasons. McDermott said as much today. He’s been good against the run. Teams have run right up the middle.

 

With that being said, he has certainly been disappointing as a first round pick. He lacks explosiveness as a pass rusher. Shaq is a plugger. 

The Whaley imprint is steadily vanishing. I'm not saying that Lawson is a bust but as a first round pick he certainly has been a disappointment (as you noted}. 

 

The one thing that McDermott has brought to the team is accountability. It doesn't matter if you are a top tier player such as Dareus or a secondary type player. Players are being held accountable. Mario Williams quit on the Bills while Rex silently stood by. That type of sabotaging behavior would not be tolerated by the wrestling coach. 

[C.Biscuit97]

Just now, JohnC said:

The Whaley imprint is steadily vanishing. I'm not saying that Lawson is a bust but as a first round pick he certainly has been a disappointment (as you noted}. 

 

The one thing that McDermott has brought to the team is accountability. It doesn't matter if you are a top tier player such as Dareus or a secondary type player. Players are being held accountable. Mario Williams quit on the Bills while Rex silently stood by. That type of sabotaging behavior would not be tolerated by the wrestling coach. 

If we kept more of the Whaley guys, we'd be easily in the playoffs.  And I think Shaq was more of a Rex guy.

 

but here is the problem with letting productive vets go and using draft picks replace them.  There is no guarantee a Draft pick will live up to the vet's play.  I give Tre White a ton of credit for replacing Gilmore but that is the only recent example I can think of (and I'd still rather have Watson  ).

[JohnC]

3 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

If we kept more of the Whaley guys, we'd be easily in the playoffs.  And I think Shaq was more of a Rex guy.

 

but here is the problem with letting productive vets go and using draft picks replace them.  There is no guarantee a Draft pick will live up to the vet's play.  I give Tre White a ton of credit for replacing Gilmore but that is the only recent example I can think of (and I'd still rather have Watson  ).

I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your view that the Whaley "team" was a playoff caliber team. In my view Whaley had a habit of over-valuing his talent. He made expedient moves to get over the proverbial hump that ended up mortgaging the future. He had a bad habit of gratuitously giving up picks for selections that weren't the cost. 

 

Many people point out that giving up Watkins for a second round pick and a starting CB was a big mistake. Yet, with our current qb situation having a talented Watkins would have been a waste. There were also considerations of cost and whether he wanted to be here. You are right that there are no guarantees with draft picks. There are also no guarantees that more costly free agent acquisitions are going to work out either. Whether you agree or not Beane has clearly and forcefully stated that the Bills are going to rebuild mostly through the draft. I agree with that approach. 

 

 

[benderbender]

Let’s trade him to Jacksonville for a 7th and complete their defense for some more chump change and another  cap hit

Edited November 28, 2017 by benderbender

[McBean]

Yes.

 

For being a first round pick he should be more impactful than he is.

[Lfod]

Well I always want the best outcome in every situation. The team is going through a lot of change. You have to do what you can to establish your place as Head Coach of a team. I can only trust the process. I have no other choice. 

 

I think what is clear to me is the new coach and general manager have a direction with the team. They sacrificed for the future and focused on defense. They just kept pieces on offense to keep it entertaining.

 

At 5-2 he looks golden so they spend picks to get a wide receiver for Tyrod and make a push. The defense implodes and Tyrod doesn't use new wide receiver and is benched. Then he goes with Nate and he uses him once and injury happens.

 

I looks to me like a long term planning and win now direction. I give them credit for all the moves and still ending up looking good. I didn't like the defensive collapse but they were basically winning all the games. 

 

 

[Big Turk]

10 hours ago, reddogblitz said:

He was a Rex guy.

 

I'm surprised he's still on the team.

Except he didn't fit at all, by his own admission, into what Rex wanted to do...

[Xerx]

The player isn't a bust. He's a serviceable player right now.

 

Was he drafted too high for his play? (so far) - Absolutely.

 

That's not on the player, he's not a bust, that a busted pick, that's on Whaley.

 

Fans may expect more from him because he was a "1st" rounder, that's not exactly fair. That's on the scouts and GM for poor evaluation on his potential impact. 

 

So yes, to answer the OP question. He's a first round bust (currently) -that's on Whaley

[The Now Moment]

I don't think we've given him enough time to develop and some have already written him off.  He is a guy that looks like he fits the scheme well, he just needs a little time.  He's only played about 19 games or somthing like that.  He's got 31 tackles this year so far and 3 sacks.  He was never drafted to have double digit sacks year in and year out.  He's a run stopper first and foremost and all the scouts new that when they pegged him.  He seems to be progressing nicely.  How many DEs come into the league and immediately dominate and put up ridiculous sack numbers?  I don't see many.  Even Jadaveon Clowney took a little bit to develop but now after some patience...he's got 9 sacks this year.  Little too early to label the guy a bust.  I think his potential is a guy who will have 50-60 tackles, most coming against the run and 6-10 sacks.  That'd be a solid pick.  Just let the kid develop.  He's on pace for 45 tackles on the year and 4.5 sacks on the year...next year if he continues to improve and gets more talent next to him, he could end up in that 50-60 tackle range with around 5-8 sacks.  Why are we trying to run him out of town?

32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

If we kept more of the Whaley guys, we'd be easily in the playoffs.  And I think Shaq was more of a Rex guy.

 

but here is the problem with letting productive vets go and using draft picks replace them.  There is no guarantee a Draft pick will live up to the vet's play.  I give Tre White a ton of credit for replacing Gilmore but that is the only recent example I can think of (and I'd still rather have Watson  ).

Nobody knows if Watson would have been any good here.  He runs a college system with a former college coach in Houston...we don't have either of those.  Taking a player, especially a rookie and saying they'd be good here when their situation is completely different is a reach.  He could've been great, who knows but I'm just pointing out it could've been a situation where he was a square peg trying to fit into a round hole here.  We just don't know how the fit would work.  Other QBs are easier to say that about but Watson is certainly a special case.  

[C.Biscuit97]

33 minutes ago, JohnC said:

I respectfully but strenuously disagree with your view that the Whaley "team" was a playoff caliber team. In my view Whaley had a habit of over-valuing his talent. He made expedient moves to get over the proverbial hump that ended up mortgaging the future. He had a bad habit of gratuitously giving up picks for selections that weren't the cost. 

 

Many people point out that giving up Watkins for a second round pick and a starting CB was a big mistake. Yet, with our current qb situation having a talented Watkins would have been a waste. There were also considerations of cost and whether he wanted to be here. You are right that there are no guarantees with draft picks. There are also no guarantees that more costly free agent acquisitions are going to work out either. Whether you agree or not Beane has clearly and forcefully stated that the Bills are going to rebuild mostly through the draft. I agree with that approach. 

 

 

Well, I also disagree.   TT's best skill as a passer is not to turn the ball over and throw the ball deep.  When Sammy was healthy in the second half of 2015, they were one of the best combos in the NFL.  As much as Goff has improved, he misses Sammy deep a bunch. Tyrod wouldn't.

 

We obviously have no way of knowing but we win that Carolina game if Sammy is there. His presence would open things for McCoy.  Dareus would help us more than a 6th rounder.

 

im not the biggest SM fan. I think he is very Jauron like.  That said, he could be an upgrade over Rex if we have better talent, which he traded away. 

 

I think the biggest that that might hurt  as a coach is him essentially being the GM. Time will tell.

17 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

I don't think we've given him enough time to develop and some have already written him off.  He is a guy that looks like he fits the scheme well, he just needs a little time.  He's only played about 19 games or somthing like that.  He's got 31 tackles this year so far and 3 sacks.  He was never drafted to have double digit sacks year in and year out.  He's a run stopper first and foremost and all the scouts new that when they pegged him.  He seems to be progressing nicely.  How many DEs come into the league and immediately dominate and put up ridiculous sack numbers?  I don't see many.  Even Jadaveon Clowney took a little bit to develop but now after some patience...he's got 9 sacks this year.  Little too early to label the guy a bust.  I think his potential is a guy who will have 50-60 tackles, most coming against the run and 6-10 sacks.  That'd be a solid pick.  Just let the kid develop.  He's on pace for 45 tackles on the year and 4.5 sacks on the year...next year if he continues to improve and gets more talent next to him, he could end up in that 50-60 tackle range with around 5-8 sacks.  Why are we trying to run him out of town?

Nobody knows if Watson would have been any good here.  He runs a college system with a former college coach in Houston...we don't have either of those.  Taking a player, especially a rookie and saying they'd be good here when their situation is completely different is a reach.  He could've been great, who knows but I'm just pointing out it could've been a situation where he was a square peg trying to fit into a round hole here.  We just don't know how the fit would work.  Other QBs are easier to say that about but Watson is certainly a special case.  

Fair point but I think Watson was a special player. I don't think it's stretch to think he would be an upgrade over Taylor/ Peterman.

[Marty McFly]

Ragland played good on Sunday. I wonder what team needed a run stopping LB with instincts this year...?

[THEHARDTRUTH]

13 hours ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

Incorrect. He's been good against aginst the run. 

So what. Hes clearly not good enough. 

9 minutes ago, Marty McFly said:

Ragland played good on Sunday. I wonder what team needed a run stopping LB with instincts this year...?

Who won on Sunday?

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, THEHARDTRUTH said:

So what. Hes clearly not good enough. 

Who won on Sunday?

 

[THEHARDTRUTH]

1 minute ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

The children have come to play. Now go back to madden.

[The Now Moment]

Game	COMB	AST	Sack	SFTY	FF
11/26 @ Chiefs	4	2	0.0	0	-
11/19 @ Chargers	4	0	1.0	0	1
11/12 vs Saints	4	1	0.0	0	-
11/2 @ Jets	3	2	0.0	0	-
10/22 vs Buccaneers	4	3	0.0	0	-
10/8 @ Bengals	2	2	0.0	0	-
9/24 vs Broncos	1	0	1.0	0	-
9/17 @ Panthers	6	4	1.0	0	-
9/10 vs Jets	3	1	0.0	0	-
Regular Season	31	15	3.0	-

Here is his statline for the games he's played this season.  He is consistently making tackles around the line of scrimmage.  He had a strip sack last week against the Chargers.  He's progressing nicely.  

[26CornerBlitz]

5 minutes ago, THEHARDTRUTH said:

The children have come to play. Now go back to madden.

 

No. I just decided not to argue any further with your uninformed opinion.

[THEHARDTRUTH]

8 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

No. I just decided not to argue any further with your uninformed opinion.

Right. I dont agree with you so Im uninformed. Is Sean Mcdermott uninformed? How about Leslie Frazier? Ill bet they have an agenda or simply dont know the game. Thats why they benched Shaq. Maybe you should submit a resume because you clearly know more than they do. Im sure the part time job at kinkos and the 80  hours a week you spend in the gaming chair doing bong hits more than qualifies you. Now this is the point were you sign in as someone else and give me the "hes one of the most respected posters on this board" blast. Or you can just cry to one of the mods and get me banned. Right Sally?

Edited November 28, 2017 by THEHARDTRUTH

[26CornerBlitz]

2 minutes ago, THEHARDTRUTH said:

Right. I dont agree with you so Im uninformed. Is Sean Mcdermott uninformed? How about Leslie Frazier? Ill bet they have an agenda or simply dont know the game. Thats why they benched Shaq. Maybe you should submit a resume because you clearly know more than they do. Im sure the part time job at kinkos and the 80  hours a week you spend in the gaming chair doing bong hits more than qualifies you. Now this is the point were you sign in as someone else and give me the "hes one of the most respected posters on this board" blast. Or you can just cry to one of the mods and get me banned. Right Sally?

 

His benching was likely due to a disciplinary issue not related to his play on the field. Take off the tin foil hat. How's that for THEHARDTRUTH. 

[The Now Moment]

32 minutes ago, C.Biscuit97 said:

Well, I also disagree.   TT's best skill as a passer is not to turn the ball over and throw the ball deep.  When Sammy was healthy in the second half of 2015, they were one of the best combos in the NFL.  As much as Goff has improved, he misses Sammy deep a bunch. Tyrod wouldn't.

 

We obviously have no way of knowing but we win that Carolina game if Sammy is there. His presence would open things for McCoy.  Dareus would help us more than a 6th rounder.

 

im not the biggest SM fan. I think he is very Jauron like.  That said, he could be an upgrade over Rex if we have better talent, which he traded away. 

 

I think the biggest that that might hurt  as a coach is him essentially being the GM. Time will tell.

Fair point but I think Watson was a special player. I don't think it's stretch to think he would be an upgrade over Taylor/ Peterman.

While he may be slightly better than them in our system, why settle for a QB that won't be able to play to his strengths in this system. We wouldn't know how to use him properly just like Dennison doesn't know how to use Tyrod now.  Which is part of the problem on offense now.  Tyrod is a player that needs the system to match his abilities and we haven't done that.  I think they were afraid Watson would turn out to be the same.  A former college coach like Bill O'reilly is the absolute perfect fit for him.  McDermott clearly wants a pro-style offense, hence the Peterman pick.  

 

Not sure why it didn't quote your part instead of the other merged part

[HappyDays]

I see him and Glenn getting traded in the offseason.

[THEHARDTRUTH]

2 minutes ago, 26CornerBlitz said:

 

His benching was likely due to a disciplinary issue not related to his play on the field. Take off the tin foil hat. How's that for THEHARDTRUTH. 

My apologies. Your use of the word likely really cements your theory. Did you get that directly from Mcdermott? Or was that during monday film review with you and the defensive staff. You might want to work with Shaq a little more on his pass rushing techniques. Clearly someone with your deep knowledge of the game can turn this guy into a HOF overnight. Ill bet he sets the league sack record by the end of the year under your wing.

[Marty McFly]

15 minutes ago, THEHARDTRUTH said:

Right. I dont agree with you so Im uninformed. Is Sean Mcdermott uninformed? How about Leslie Frazier? Ill bet they have an agenda or simply dont know the game. Thats why they benched Shaq. Maybe you should submit a resume because you clearly know more than they do. Im sure the part time job at kinkos and the 80  hours a week you spend in the gaming chair doing bong hits more than qualifies you. Now this is the point were you sign in as someone else and give me the "hes one of the most respected posters on this board" blast. Or you can just cry to one of the mods and get me banned. Right Sally?

 

80 hours a week in a gaming chair doing bong rips? lmao. ill sign up for that job.

 

They said benching Shaq was a disciplinary thing.

 

they def coulda used Ragland, he beasted on us yesterday. We could use a run stopping LB 

[26CornerBlitz]

1 minute ago, THEHARDTRUTH said:

My apologies. Your use of the word likely really cements your theory. Did you get that directly from Mcdermott? Or was that during monday film review with you and the defensive staff. You might want to work with Shaq a little more on his pass rushing techniques. Clearly someone with your deep knowledge of the game can turn this guy into a HOF overnight. Ill bet he sets the league sack record by the end of the year under your wing.

 

No. I listened to what he said and what it intimated.  I'm going to make copies now for a customer at Kinkos. 

[THEHARDTRUTH]

My concern with Shaq is lack of pass rush. The concern with Ragland was coverage ability. I think Mcdermott has made it clear he wants versatile players. Neither of these guys appears to fit that mold. Concerns about Lawsons play are valid. At least with respect to the pass rush. Unless your goal is 8-8 every year. Good luck against the Pats sunday if you cant generate pressure with just four guys. Brady will eat us alive if we give him time or start blitzing him because we cant get pressure with just four. Remember the first time the Giants beat them in the Superbowl? They absolutely abused him with four man rushes. I think thats what Mcdermott has in mind. I want championships not 8-8. We need more from our ends and dline as a whole if we want to beat the best teams.

[The Now Moment]

53 minutes ago, THEHARDTRUTH said:

My concern with Shaq is lack of pass rush. The concern with Ragland was coverage ability. I think Mcdermott has made it clear he wants versatile players. Neither of these guys appears to fit that mold. Concerns about Lawsons play are valid. At least with respect to the pass rush. Unless your goal is 8-8 every year. Good luck against the Pats sunday if you cant generate pressure with just four guys. Brady will eat us alive if we give him time or start blitzing him because we cant get pressure with just four. Remember the first time the Giants beat them in the Superbowl? They absolutely abused him with four man rushes. I think thats what Mcdermott has in mind. I want championships not 8-8. We need more from our ends and dline as a whole if we want to beat the best teams.

He's only played about 20 games.  He continues to improve and had a strip sack against the Chargers.  With better DTs next to him and a little more time to develop his own pass rush abilitites, he will be just fine.  Most DEs take a little bit to get sacks.  Clowney is a perfect example.  A freak of nature but couldn't get the sacks right away.  This year he has 9 sacks without Watt next to him.  Shaq has 31 tackles in 10 games played this year...that's above average for DEs in this league.  He's developing nicely.

Edited November 28, 2017 by Buffalo30

[Best Player Available]

22 minutes ago, Buffalo30 said:

He's only played about 20 games.  He continues to improve and had a strip sack against the Chargers.  With better DTs next to him and a little more time to develop his own pass rush abilitites, he will be just fine.  Most DEs take a little bit to get sacks.  Clowney is a perfect example.  A freak of nature but couldn't get the sacks right away.  This year he has 9 sacks with Watt next to him.  Shaq has 31 tackles in 10 games played this year...that's above average for DEs in this league.  He's developing nicely.

The only place Clowney is with Watt next to him is in the omelet line in the morning. since he's been on season ending IR.