Woods, watkins TDs

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

And why then is the opposing teams #1 back assigned him or double teamed????  Because he's a scrub?

 

And who is worth the money?  I love how every receiver is not worth the money they're being paid.

 

The good news is Matthews value is tumbling, so that bodes well.....

 

No one said he’s a scrub...you’re just being dramatic.  Saying someone isn’t elite doesn’t mean they are saying he’s a scrub.

 

DeAndre Hopkins caught 111 balls with Hoyer and Mallett throwing to him 2 years ago.

78 with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage last year.

 

Thats being elite.

 

 

 

[teef]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

No one said he’s a scrub...you’re just being dramatic.  Saying someone isn’t elite doesn’t mean they are saying he’s a scrub.

 

DeAndre Hopkins caught 111 balls with Hoyer and Mallett throwing to him 2 years ago.

78 with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage last year.

 

Thats being elite.

 

 

 

and i wouldn't be surprised if the 1 cb was on him, or even if he was double teamed on occasion.    it's shocking that someone is using that as an argument.

[dave mcbride]

24 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

But his comments are directly about his targets.  I posted his targets per game.

 

You called it a lie.  So if it’s a lie, then his specific comments about wanting more targets were wrong?

 

Was he targeted enough or not in Buffalo?So which is it Dave?  

You're asking me to make a value judgment, which I'm not going to to do. I'm merely responding to posted stats that don't factor in game contexts that skew the numbers. If you're going to post numbers like that, add context. 

[Boatdrinks]

Watkins is a quality WR with talent. If one watches the Rams games, they will see he gets open and Goff rarely looks his way. He could be used more, but the Rams have lots of weapons. Sammy was never going to be worth two first rounders unless he was Jerry Rice. The only reason it is still a topic is that the Bills have yet to establish a consistent and effective passing attack. If that was happening, no one including myself ( as a Watkins fan) would be thinking about it any more. It's the NFL and players come and go. The Bills don't have an offensive lineup similar to the Rams, so it's impossible to look at whatever is happening in LA as what would happen if SW was in Buffalo. We will see what happens with the addition of Benjamin  and the return of Clay. 

[Royale with Cheese]

6 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

You're asking me to make a value judgment, which I'm not going to to do. I'm merely responding to posted stats that don't factor in game contexts that skew the numbers. If you're going to post numbers like that, add context. 

 

So we add in the few games he didn't finish and it raises his targets per game average.  It won't raise it that much but lets go with it.

There is no other reason to point out that context other than to let me know those numbers are skewed on the low side.  Right?

 

So even with that said, Watkins knows he was hurt.  It's not news to him...he was the injured player.  He still complained about targets.  So obviously he felt he wasn't targeted enough even with all this context added it.  This is a discussion board where you do discuss opinions.....was Watkins complaints about lack of targets warranted in your opinion?

[Billsfan1972]

1 minute ago, Boatdrinks said:

Watkins is a quality WR with talent. If one watches the Rams games, they will see he gets open and Goff rarely looks his way. He could be used more, but the Rams have lots of weapons. Sammy was never going to be worth two first rounders unless he was Jerry Rice. The only reason it is still a topic is that the Bills have yet to establish a consistent and effective passing attack. If that was happening, no one including myself ( as a Watkins fan) would be thinking about it any more. It's the NFL and players come and go. The Bills don't have an offensive lineup similar to the Rams, so it's impossible to look at whatever is happening in LA as what would happen if SW was in Buffalo. We will see what happens with the addition of Benjamin  and the return of Clay. 

Exactly and so exasperating.  The Bills had a very good offense that they didn't know what to do with it (and still don't).

 

Brady, Rodgers, Carson Wentz, Deshawn Watson...... would be handing the ball off in Buffalo, OBJ would get 6 targets a game, Antonio Brown would walk away like Boldin and be called a prima donna. 

[SaviorPeterman]

It's time to move on from Woods and Watkins, they aren't coming back to this team and even if they were still here would make little difference the way the oline has struggled this year.

 

 

[Sweats]

Who needs them anyways..........don't you know that Zay had his break-out game last week and he will save this WR corps.

[Royale with Cheese]

5 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Exactly and so exasperating.  The Bills had a very good offense that they didn't know what to do with it (and still don't).

 

Brady, Rodgers, Carson Wentz, Deshawn Watson...... would be handing the ball off in Buffalo, OBJ would get 6 targets a game, Antonio Brown would walk away like Boldin and be called a prima donna. 

 

You literally just said on the last page that with TT, Watkins would be elite.  

[Boatdrinks]

7 minutes ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Exactly and so exasperating.  The Bills had a very good offense that they didn't know what to do with it (and still don't).

 

Brady, Rodgers, Carson Wentz, Deshawn Watson...... would be handing the ball off in Buffalo, OBJ would get 6 targets a game, Antonio Brown would walk away like Boldin and be called a prima donna. 

 

 I can't agree with this as it's not what I was saying at all. The Bills offense would be ENTIRELY different with one of those QBs you mentioned. The Bills offense is what it currently is because McCoy is their best player, period. If their best player was a QB ( and it would be with any of those QBs) they would be relying much more on throwing the football because that would be their most likely way to WIN. That's what you do as a coach, give yourself the best chance you can. With Taylor, the best the Bills offense can be is complimentary to McCoy and the ground game. It's not there yet, and the running game is less consistent than it was last season. I'm not sure this OL can get it figured out in time or that the current starters are good enough. 

[Cynical]

3 hours ago, Billsfan1972 said:

Actually Goff is worse then TT but playing in an offense that it dynamic and inventive.  Goff is actually pretty bad wrt accuracy and reading defenses and the fact he checks down worse then TT.  Watkins is behind Cooper Kupp as an option says it all.

 

 

The irony when the evidence is staring at you right in the face and you still cannot see it.

Those damn trees ...

 

Quote

The fact the FO tried to undermine TT & the offense and tank the season says all you need about the Bills.

 

Just stop.

 

[Bill_with_it]

55 minutes ago, teef said:

so what if he's double teamed?  you think he's so elite...should't he still be showing some numbers?  i don't think i've once seen anyone call him a scrub on here.  his problem is he was a me first player, (as he even admitted) and even then his value wasn't there.  you know who's worth the money?  productive players.  sammy hasn't shown himself to be one.  

 

what's it going to take for people to realize that letting sammy go was likely a wise decision?  will have have to be non-productive on his  third team for people to actually clue in?

Its gonna take him his entire career fir people to realize that. Sammy is all about Sammy. I reqd people coaring him to Julio. You know who is covered by number one cbs, bracketed, and still performs? Julio. Yup Sammy is nowhere near Julio Jones. Sammy isnt even worth mentioning in the same sentence as the tip ten wrs this year even based on potential. Its ludicrous, imaginative, and sensational in its entirety.

[P51]

52 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

No one said he’s a scrub...you’re just being dramatic.  Saying someone isn’t elite doesn’t mean they are saying he’s a scrub.

 

DeAndre Hopkins caught 111 balls with Hoyer and Mallett throwing to him 2 years ago.

78 with Brock Osweiler and Tom Savage last year.

 

Thats being elite.

 

 

 

No names just context, who is more elite;

 

Player A with a 63% reception per target rate, 11 yards per target, 17.5 yards per reception, 9% TD per target rate, 15% TD per reception rate, 68% 1st down per reception rate, 465 team passing attempts (-154 passing attempts vs. team B).

or

Player B with a 58% reception per target rate, 8 yards per target, 13.7 yards per reception, 6% TD per target rate, 10% TD per reception rate, 75% 1st down per reception rate, 619 team passing attempts (+154 passing attempts vs. team A).

[Kelly the Dog]

If you don't watch the Rams games you don't know what you're talking about. And it has nothing to do with whether you like Sammy or not. 

[Wayne Arnold]

Sean McVay should be Coach of the Year. And he's only 31 years old! Nice life he's got going.

 

[Billsfan1972]

42 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

 

 I can't agree with this as it's not what I was saying at all. The Bills offense would be ENTIRELY different with one of those QBs you mentioned. The Bills offense is what it currently is because McCoy is their best player, period. If their best player was a QB ( and it would be with any of those QBs) they would be relying much more on throwing the football because that would be their most likely way to WIN. That's what you do as a coach, give yourself the best chance you can. With Taylor, the best the Bills offense can be is complimentary to McCoy and the ground game. It's not there yet, and the running game is less consistent than it was last season. I'm not sure this OL can get it figured out in time or that the current starters are good enough. 

I am being sarcastic with tongue firmly panted in cheek.  I consider TT a good QB, who could be much better with more innovative coaching and weapons at WR.  I think they tried to sabotage him this year by offering him no help at WR.....

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, Wayne Arnold said:

Sean McVay should be Coach of the Year. And he's only 31 years old! Nice life he's got going.

 

Wow. He's a player coach. 

[P51]

 

1 hour ago, teef said:

so what if he's double teamed?  you think he's so elite...should't he still be showing some numbers?  i don't think i've once seen anyone call him a scrub on here.  his problem is he was a me first player, (as he even admitted) and even then his value wasn't there.  you know who's worth the money?  productive players.  sammy hasn't shown himself to be one.  

 

what's it going to take for people to realize that letting sammy go was likely a wise decision?  will have have to be non-productive on his  third team for people to actually clue in?

 

Serious question: Does the inequality of opportunity play a role in producing stats?

[JohnC]

6 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

If you don't watch the Rams games you don't know what you're talking about. And it has nothing to do with whether you like Sammy or not. 

Goff is a young qb who at this point isn't adept at going through his progressions. One of the reasons why Goff made a quantum leap as a qb is that their smart, young HC simplified the passing game so that Goff could complete passes and gain confidence. It's working and the team is succeeding. Unquestionably, Goff is more comfortable throwing to Kupp and Woods than Watkins. The result is that the passing game is clicking even with Watkins consistently getting open because other receivers are also getting open. 

 

It's not too difficult to understand why Watkins who is playing for a contract is frustrated. Tough! The team is winning despite the fact that he is not getting what he believes to be his fair share of touches. There is no doubt that Watkins is a superlative talent. What he is not is a superlative teammate. 

 

[dave mcbride]

1 hour ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

So we add in the few games he didn't finish and it raises his targets per game average.  It won't raise it that much but lets go with it.

There is no other reason to point out that context other than to let me know those numbers are skewed on the low side.  Right?

 

So even with that said, Watkins knows he was hurt.  It's not news to him...he was the injured player.  He still complained about targets.  So obviously he felt he wasn't targeted enough even with all this context added it.  This is a discussion board where you do discuss opinions.....was Watkins complaints about lack of targets warranted in your opinion?

I don't know if it was merited; lots of elite talents complain about lack of touches, and he wasn't that bad about it. Frankly, I don't care that much either. I think it's a manufactured controversy, truth be told. That stuff doesn't matter to me much.

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, dave mcbride said:

I don't know if it was merited; lots of elite talents complain about lack of touches, and he wasn't that bad about it. Frankly, I don't care that much either. I think it's a manufactured controversy, truth be told. That stuff doesn't matter to me much.

 

I really don't think it's manufactured controversey when he admitted this:

 

“Two years ago, it would’ve probably been different,” Watkins said. “I would’ve probably gone to the media and been saying whatever, trying to get the coach’s attention. That’s how I used to do it back then. Like, ‘I need more targets.’ Then that comes to the coach, and me and him have to talk.”

Watkins went on to acknowledge that he was selfish during his time with the Bills as he was dealing with a foot injury and that it hurt relationships with his coaches and fellow teammates. He even went as far to say that at times, he cared more about his own individual production than the team winning games.

RELATED

LB Preston Brown says Sammy Watkins trade made Bills 'more of a team'

“I felt like I was consumed, and I was angry,” Watkins said. “It was affecting my relationships with the coaches and with the players. I wanted to be great so bad, but I was also selfish, too. Because there were some games that we won and I didn’t get the ball, and I was upset.”

[Buffalo Barbarian]

23 hours ago, Foreigner said:

If you watch the roundup shows tonight you will see the Rams Robert Woods 53 yard receiving TD, and Sammy Watkins

67 yard receiving TD and the first half is not over yet.

I guess with talent, the cream always rises to the top  

 

Rather have their OC,  or the Eagles

[Kelly the Dog]

3 minutes ago, JohnC said:

Goff is a young qb who at this point isn't adept at going through his progressions. One of the reasons why Goff made a quantum leap as a qb is that their smart, young HC simplified the passing game so that Goff could complete passes and gain confidence. It's working and the team is succeeding. Unquestionably, Goff is more comfortable throwing to Kupp and Woods than Watkins. The result is that the passing game is clicking even with Watkins consistently getting open because other receivers are also getting open. 

 

It's not too difficult to understand why Watkins who is playing for a contract is frustrated. Tough! The team is winning despite the fact that he is not getting what he believes to be his fair share of touches. There is no doubt that Watkins is a superlative talent. What he is not is a superlative teammate. 

 

Doesn't seem like you're watching the games either.

 

I don't expect people to. But looking at raw stats and highlights doesn't tell a fraction of the story of what they are doing. It's quite the opposite of a simplified offense. 

[Royale with Cheese]

33 minutes ago, P51 said:

No names just context, who is more elite;

 

Player A with a 63% reception per target rate, 11 yards per target, 17.5 yards per reception, 9% TD per target rate, 15% TD per reception rate, 68% 1st down per reception rate, 465 team passing attempts (-154 passing attempts vs. team B).

or

Player B with a 58% reception per target rate, 8 yards per target, 13.7 yards per reception, 6% TD per target rate, 10% TD per reception rate, 75% 1st down per reception rate, 619 team passing attempts (+154 passing attempts vs. team A).

 

I'm just going to guess player A is Watkins and player B is Hopkins?

[P51]

Just now, Royale with Cheese said:

 

I'm just going to guess player A is Watkins and player B is Hopkins?

 

[JohnC]

Just now, Kelly the Dog said:

Doesn't seem like you're watching the games either.

 

I don't expect people to. But looking at raw stats and highlights doesn't tell a fraction of the story of what they are doing. It's quite the opposite of a simplified offense. 

What the new HC first did is put the young qb in situations where he can complete passes. As the season is advancing and he is gaining confidence the playbook is expanding. That's good coaching and player development.  You start with the basics and then add to your game. Gaining experience and getting better. Next year he will be much more accomplished, and after that he will be an established qb. That's the point I was making. 

[teef]

1 hour ago, Boatdrinks said:

Watkins is a quality WR with talent. If one watches the Rams games, they will see he gets open and Goff rarely looks his way. He could be used more, but the Rams have lots of weapons. Sammy was never going to be worth two first rounders unless he was Jerry Rice. The only reason it is still a topic is that the Bills have yet to establish a consistent and effective passing attack. If that was happening, no one including myself ( as a Watkins fan) would be thinking about it any more. It's the NFL and players come and go. The Bills don't have an offensive lineup similar to the Rams, so it's impossible to look at whatever is happening in LA as what would happen if SW was in Buffalo. We will see what happens with the addition of Benjamin  and the return of Clay. 

Great post boatdrinks.  Completely agree. 

[Royale with Cheese]

3 minutes ago, P51 said:

 

 

Well to answer your question, Watkins isn't elite IMO so that kinda narrows that down.

[P51]

9 minutes ago, Royale with Cheese said:

 

Well to answer your question, Watkins isn't elite IMO so that kinda narrows that down.

 

Im guessing that Hopkins is IYO? If so what makes him elite?

[Billsfan1972]

So anyone else see the Julio drop yesterday?  Just wondering how you'd react and crucify him.  Of course many here would explain that the Carolina defense wasn't trying.

[The Now Moment]

4 hours ago, SoTier said:

As I asked Teef, how many Rams games have you watched?  WRs are dependent upon how often the QB throws to them.  Goff throws to Kupp as if he were his only option a lot of the time.  As Goff matures and gets more confidence in Watkins and Woods, as well as defenses start double covering Kupp, Goff should start throwing the ball to his other options more often.  Even without having as many targets as he should have, Woods is on pace to get at about 800-900+ yards (I'm not sure if the Rams have played 8 or 9 games).

 

The point is, however, not whether the Bills should have gotten rid of one or both Woods and/or Watkins but rather whether they were "inconsistent" as WRs.  They weren't in Buffalo, and they aren't in LA.

Guess I just don't agree.  In an offense that will likely pass for about 4,000 yards, I think a guy that was brought in to be the number one via trade should be getting at least five catches a game or about 75-90 catches on the year.  Watkins has had 3 games with 1 catch, 1 with no catches and a game with 2 and 3 catches.  That's just not good enough to warrant giving up such assets and that taking on a larger salary. I just need more production to say he's doing well.  It's not that I don't want him to do well.  To me, he's just not living up to the hype.  He had the hype to be the next Julio Jones or Antonio Brown but just fell flat.  The center of the offense weapon that'd be unstoppable hasn't happened yet.  I hope he gets there some day though.

[BillsfanAZ]

I like both Watkins and Woods but I have no problem that they both arent here anymore. Woods is not worth the contract that he got. Watkins is a good player plagued by injuries. I think his potential will always be greater than his production. The Rams may not be able to keep him after this season. Watkins may choose to go somewhere there is a good QB and less competition at WR. Unfortunately until Buffalo shows they have a legit WR, people will always be comparing to what Watkins is doing while over looking the value of EJ Gaines. Not to mention if the Bills use the draft pick wisely. 

[Boatdrinks]

2 hours ago, Buffalo30 said:

Guess I just don't agree.  In an offense that will likely pass for about 4,000 yards, I think a guy that was brought in to be the number one via trade should be getting at least five catches a game or about 75-90 catches on the year.  Watkins has had 3 games with 1 catch, 1 with no catches and a game with 2 and 3 catches.  That's just not good enough to warrant giving up such assets and that taking on a larger salary. I just need more production to say he's doing well.  It's not that I don't want him to do well.  To me, he's just not living up to the hype.  He had the hype to be the next Julio Jones or Antonio Brown but just fell flat.  The center of the offense weapon that'd be unstoppable hasn't happened yet.  I hope he gets there some day though.

 

 Can't look at catches without looking at targets. Watkins is still the " new guy" and had zero practice time with Goff before August. Yes, SW was traded for as a #1. You still have to look at what the Rams are asking him to do within the offense. Watch the Rams games and decide if he's getting open or not. 

[Miyagi-Do Karate]

38 minutes ago, Boatdrinks said:

 

 Can't look at catches without looking at targets. Watkins is still the " new guy" and had zero practice time with Goff before August. Yes, SW was traded for as a #1. You still have to look at what the Rams are asking him to do within the offense. Watch the Rams games and decide if he's getting open or not. 

 

The “new guy” bit is a bit old now. Watkins is a vet. He’s been there now for like 12 weeks. I would expect his production to be much better for a true “no. 1 WR.”

[Kelly the Dog]

Just now, JR in Pittsburgh said:

 

The “new guy” bit is a bit old now. Watkins is a vet. He’s been there now for like 12 weeks. I would expect his production to be much better for a true “no. 1 WR.”

If you were the coach of the Rams, and traded for Sammy Watkins - and he was drawing coverage all over the field - which he is - and if you say he is not you are lying - and your team was moving up and down the field at will almost every game - and putting up 30-50 points - and had one of the league's best offenses - would you tell your QB to target our #1 guy more or do what we have been doing. Their offense is sick. There is no reason to force him the ball.

[oldmanfan]

If guys are that good you don't need to tell the QB to target him or not.That said, the young Rams HC is doing a great job.

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, Kelly the Dog said:

If you were the coach of the Rams, and traded for Sammy Watkins - and he was drawing coverage all over the field - which he is - and if you say he is not you are lying - and your team was moving up and down the field at will almost every game - and putting up 30-50 points - and had one of the league's best offenses - would you tell your QB to target our #1 guy more or do what we have been doing. Their offense is sick. There is no reason to force him the ball.

Exactly. Goff looks underneath and usually goes there with the ball because it's open. He takes a few deep shots to Watkins but has missed on many of them. He missed one earlier in the Giants game but went back to it and hit the TD. Production is a two way street. Forcing the ball to Watkins because they traded for him would be a solution in search of a problem. The Rams are apparently fine with Watkins current role in the offense, and why wouldn't they be? 

[Scott7975]

4 hours ago, Kelly the Dog said:

Doesn't seem like you're watching the games either.

 

I don't expect people to. But looking at raw stats and highlights doesn't tell a fraction of the story of what they are doing. It's quite the opposite of a simplified offense. 

Quote

The coaching is better

Yes, Head Coach Sean McVay is doing a phenomenal job. From simplifying the offensive system to fit QB Jared Goff rather than handjam him into a preconceived system

Quote

McVay has tried to simplify things and make them as easy to process for Goff as possible.  It's a lot of quick three step drops with short and intermediate throws over the middle, taking the occasional deep shot to keep the defense on their toes.

In another article McVay said he installed about 95% of the offense during minicamp.

 

There are plenty of articles out there on how McVay set out to simplify the offense for Goff.  Which is the right thing to do for a young QB, but it is not the opposite of a simplified offense at all.

Edited November 6, 2017 by Scott7975

[Boatdrinks]

4 minutes ago, oldmanfan said:

If guys are that good you don't need to tell the QB to target him or not.That said, the young Rams HC is doing a great job.

The QB is still young and relatively inexperienced. He's choosing the first read that's open and not taking lots of shots. If plenty of options are open, why would Goff focus on getting the ball to Watkins? There is nothing wrong with the Rams offense right now, including Sammy. 

[Kelly the Dog]

2 minutes ago, Scott7975 said:

In another article McVay said he installed about 95% of the offense during minicamp.

 

There are plenty of articles out there on how McVay set out to simplify the offense for Goff.

Their offense is sophisticated though. He may not have Goff go through several progressions, that is what he is talking about. He makes his decision before the snap most of the time. But they have all kinds of formations and movement and exotic plays and playcalls. It's the opposite of a simple offense. He just doesn't put much on Goff's plate. he just says run the play and throw it to the guy they are not watching. Plus, the offense is a lot different the way they run it now from four-five games ago. They seem to do a lot more. It was incredible yesterday.