Woodman19 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) Do you watch the Bills? McDermott is ultra conservative. Running the ball and playing turnover free football while clinging to leads. Your dreaming if you think Peterman is playing this year at the teams current pace. And expect Tyrod back next year. I think any coach prefers a prolific passing game over ground and pound. If you have a great RB and a good running QB who isn't the best passer do you think a good coach is going to try to run an air assault? Also, he never mentioned Peterman. Edited November 2, 2017 by Woodman19 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Do you watch the Bills? McDermott is ultra conservative. Running the ball and playing turnover free football while clinging to leads. Your dreaming if you think Peterman is playing this year at the teams current pace. And expect Tyrod back next year. Serious question. How much influence do you think McD has on Dennison's play calls? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Serious question. How much influence do you think McD has on Dennison's play calls? You didn't ask me but I'll throw my 2 cents. Playcall themselves likely none. Conservative/aggressiveness is probably McD. Just like punt/fg go for it is McD call. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Arnold Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Do you watch the Bills? McDermott is ultra conservative. Running the ball and playing turnover free football while clinging to leads. Your dreaming if you think Peterman is playing this year at the teams current pace. And expect Tyrod back next year. No he's not. He'll attempt a 4th down conversion once in a while. He's no Doug Marrone, that's for sure. McDermott isn't brain-dead enough to think "clinging to leads" sixteen times in an NFL season is a recipe for success. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 You didn't ask me but I'll throw my 2 cents. Playcall themselves likely none. Conservative/aggressiveness is probably McD. Just like punt/fg go for it is McD call. If its not playcalls, how can we say he affects # of attempts? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Scott7975 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) If its not playcalls, how can we say he affects # of attempts? Because of the conservative/aggressive. He can and likely does tell Dennison something along the lines of... Ok it's mid 3rd quarter and we have a lead. Start burning clock. Or ok we need to score start getting aggressive. Edited November 2, 2017 by Scott7975 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I think my point was obvious. For the record, I understand your argument, I just think it's over simplistic, revisionist and just not satisfactory. How is it revisionist or a simplistic if every single year the average of every single defensive minded head coach always passes the ball last van the offensive minded head coach? If the average is consistently higher for the head coach with the background in offense, that's not revisionist or simplistic, that's a trend. Also, I made a mistake in my calculations. I meant to exclude John Harbaugh from the numbers because he has a special teams background, and for some reason I excluded him in the numbers themselves as I added them up, but I included him when I divided the total number. Actual number: 2017 Defensive HCs: 31 pass attempts per game 2017 Offensive HCs: 34.8 pass attempts per game Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ALF Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I still believe the team would be best served picking up a top QB, and I am ok with TT getting an extension. Worse case scenario future trade bait and awesome depth Agree , hope that pick is better then Mahomes and Watson . T. White is excellent , but a franchise QB is the goal. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
ddaryl Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Will the Ghost of Denver return? that one is lost on me.... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 that one is lost on me.... for 2 seasons there have been rumors/stories of Denver being interested in signing Taylor. yeah, I worded that poorly before Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 How is it revisionist or a simplistic if every single year the average of every single defensive minded head coach always passes the ball last van the offensive minded head coach? If the average is consistently higher for the head coach with the background in offense, that's not revisionist or simplistic, that's a trend. Also, I made a mistake in my calculations. I meant to exclude John Harbaugh from the numbers because he has a special teams background, and for some reason I excluded him in the numbers themselves as I added them up, but I included him when I divided the total number. Actual number: 2017 Defensive HCs: 31 pass attempts per game 2017 Offensive HCs: 34.8 pass attempts per game Because correlation does not and has not ever meant causation. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Serious question. How much influence do you think McD has on Dennison's play calls? He's the head coach, dude! Are you friggin serious?!?! McDermott isn't calling individual plays but you can bet he's the one dictating the offensive philosophy, ala attacking offense vs. ball control offense. Do you actually think a head coach just says to his OC, "yeah man, do whatever you want, I don't care."???? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) He's the head coach, dude! Are you friggin serious?!?! McDermott isn't calling individual plays but you can bet he's the one dictating the offensive philosophy, ala attacking offense vs. ball control offense. Do you actually think a head coach just says to his OC, "yeah man, do whatever you want, I don't care."???? 5 teams in the top 10 in pass attempts this year have HCs with defensive backgrounds. For the record, I dont think its as simple as youre saying. Just saying. Be gentile. Edited November 2, 2017 by Bangarang Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 He's the head coach, dude! Are you friggin serious?!?! McDermott isn't calling individual plays but you can bet he's the one dictating the offensive philosophy, ala attacking offense vs. ball control offense. Do you actually think a head coach just says to his OC, "yeah man, do whatever you want, I don't care."???? You can play ball control and still pass the ball. Which is why I asked about play calls. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) 5 teams in the top 10 in pass attempts this year have HCs with defensive backgrounds. For the record, I dont think its as simple as youre saying. Just saying. Be gentile. lol You can play ball control and still pass the ball. Which is why I asked about play calls. agree. Isn't "ball control offense" where you forego the big play to focus on low risk plays which lets you maximize time of possession and minimize your defensive plays. Nothing says it is run only. Another way to look at it from another angle Ball control compensates for lack of offensive firepower. aka a passing game. Edited November 2, 2017 by ShadyBillsFan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoTier Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Why do you assume a conservative, run-first offense is what McDermott wants? It doesn't occur to you that he knows a run-first offense is his only choice right now considering the limitations of the quarterback? Right-o. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that the Bills have one of the premier RBs in the NFL, an OL that's good at run blocking, and significantly better at run blocking than at pass blocking, as well as TEs that know how to block for the run. It has NOTHING to do with the fact that the Bills play their home games in an open stadium in an area that's infamous for windy weather, especially from about late October onward. It's all about Taylor's "limitations" because we all know that "franchise QBs" have no "limitations". What exactly are Taylor's limitations that make it impossible for the McDermott to institute a pass first offense, BTW? In the past, he was criticized for not utilizing the middle of the field. He's been doing that. He's certainly has been changing his style from "running QB" to "mobile pocket QB" like Rodgers or Smith. He can make all the throws, he's fairly accurate, and he doesn't make stupid decisions, so he takes care of the football. He's been criticized for not throwing into tight windows enough and for not "throwing receivers open" and he still needs to work on both. Those are hardly the worst "limitations" a QB can have though. Just ask Vance Joseph or Hue Jackson. Maybe it's his lack of height ... he can't do much about that but then neither could Drew Brees or Russell Wilson. 5 teams in the top 10 in pass attempts this year have HCs with defensive backgrounds. For the record, I dont think its as simple as youre saying. Just saying. Be gentile. I don't think it is, either. I think a big determinant is whether the team can muster a good running game or not. Ideally, teams like to be able to do both but with the constraints of the salary cap, they realistically can't unless they can get a lot of production out of players on rookie contracts ... or they stint on the resources they allocate to the defense. When they can't get a good running game going, the good teams often utilize short passes instead of runs to get 3-6 yards a pop. NE has had this problem for years, primarily I think, because they've built and maintained their OL as a premier pass blocking unit to protect Brady. The lack of a running game has been a major problem for the Giants the last couple of years as they've invested in their passing game (QB/receivers) and their defense but couldn't afford to invest in their OL. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 All this talk about passing more and no one mentions that last year teams were slightly more likely to win if they passed for less than 300yds. Teams that passed for 300 plus had a losing record. That isn't an opinion. Like I said, its a team game with many elements and ways to get it done. The only guaranteed way to win is scoring more points. Do not understand the obsession with throwing the ball more. It is not an automatically better way to do it, all depends on the situation. Annoying how some people seem more obsessed with certain players(pro or con) than the team. That said I have been critical of TT in the past, but it is easy for me to see he has gotten better. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 All this talk about passing more and no one mentions that last year teams were slightly more likely to win if they passed for less than 300yds. Teams that passed for 300 plus had a losing record. That isn't an opinion. Like I said, its a team game with many elements and ways to get it done. The only guaranteed way to win is scoring more points. Do not understand the obsession with throwing the ball more. It is not an automatically better way to do it, all depends on the situation. Annoying how some people seem more obsessed with certain players(pro or con) than the team. That said I have been critical of TT in the past, but it is easy for me to see he has gotten better. All passing yards are down as well as scoring. Think of it this way RE: 300 ypg The QB's in the NFL are either a) Bad b) Average c) Getting too old. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
artmalibu Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 What is the thing all the sudden with the "trap game". Wasnt the wording of possible upset good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Turk71 Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) What is the thing all the sudden with the "trap game". Wasnt the wording of possible upset good enough. The 'trap game' is a game that you perceive your opponent to be inferior and assume you will easily win. That should never happen on a well coached team and I doubt the Bills are approaching this game like that. I expect a tough, hard fought road game against a divisional rival. No gimmes in the NFL especially on the road. Edited November 2, 2017 by Turk71 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) For the record, I understand your argument, I just think it's over simplistic, revisionist and just not satisfactory. 2016 Teams with head coaches with offensive backgrounds had 35.8 pass attempts. Teams with head coaches with defensive backgrounds had 32.9 pass attempts. Why do you assume a conservative, run-first offense is what McDermott wants? It doesn't occur to you that he knows a run-first offense is his only choice right now considering the limitations of the quarterback? Because historically that's what defensive coaches want, see the last 2 years as examples of that trend Edited November 2, 2017 by transplantbillsfan Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BringBackOrton Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 2016 Teams with head coaches with offensive backgrounds had 35.8 pass attempts. Teams with head coaches with defensive backgrounds had 32.9 pass attempts. Because historically that's what defensive coaches want, see the last 2 years as examples of that trend That pesky causality again. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 2016 Teams with head coaches with offensive backgrounds had 35.8 pass attempts. Teams with head coaches with defensive backgrounds had 32.9 pass attempts. Because historically that's what defensive coaches want, see the last 2 years as examples of that trend I really cant believe youre trying to make this point as though its just that simple. Youre a guy that loves context and yet youre taking a simple number and blindly trying to come to a conclusion as if you can speak for all the defensive HCs in the league. Youre better than this. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 I really cant believe youre trying to make this point as though its just that simple. Youre a guy that loves context and yet youre taking a simple number and blindly trying to come to a conclusion as if you can speak for all the defensive HCs in the league. Youre better than this. Is it any more reasonable to look at Tyrods pass attempts and make a conclusion about how our coaches feel about him based on that? How I see it is transplant is taking that logic (or lack thereof) and looking at it from another perspective. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Is it any more reasonable to look at Tyrods pass attempts and make a conclusion about how our coaches feel about him based on that? How I see it is transplant is taking that logic (or lack thereof) and looking at it from another perspective. No, hes just being stubborn and foolish. Its reasonable to speculate whether our low pass attempts is because of Tyrods limitations as a passer. Its foolish to try and say definitively that all defensive head coaches think a specific way. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 Because historically that's what defensive coaches want, see the last 2 years as examples of that trend While I agree that is certainly a trend and not a fluke I slightly question the link you are making on reasoning. I'd suggest HCs with defensive backgrounds usually field defensively superior teams. Those couple of extra throws a game can easily be put down to a team chasing a game because their D sucks as opposed to an idealistic aversion from defensive minded HCs not to throw. That isn't to say it undermines your general point - defensive minded HCs throw less.... but I think you have to ask the real reasons why that is and there are a multitude of factors beyond just "they don't want to." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
HappyDays Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 No, hes just being stubborn and foolish. Its reasonable to speculate whether our low pass attempts is because of Tyrods limitations as a passer. Its foolish to try and say definitively that all defensive head coaches think a specific way. So its okay to wonder if pass attempts have something to do with the QBs ability, but not if they have something to do with the coachs philosophy? That makes no sense. The whole pass attempts thing is so dumb. We have Shady McCoy, a mobile QB, a defensive HC, and we play in a city known for bad weather. If we had an elite QB sure wed pass the ball a lot but we also wouldnt be paying Shady if we had an elite QB so the point is moot. You cant separate one factor from the other. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 So its okay to wonder if pass attempts have something to do with the QBs ability, but not if they have something to do with the coachs philosophy? That makes no sense. Thats not what I said so if it doesnt make sense then its on you. Transplant is trying to definitively say what all the defensive HCs think and want which was what I was pointing out. The whole pass attempts thing is so dumb. We have Shady McCoy, a mobile QB, a defensive HC, and we play in a city known for bad weather. If we had an elite QB sure wed pass the ball a lot but we also wouldnt be paying Shady if we had an elite QB so the point is moot. You cant separate one factor from the other. Are you just arguing a point that I never made? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
grb Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 (edited) No, hes just being stubborn and foolish. Its reasonable to speculate whether our low pass attempts is because of Tyrods limitations as a passer. Its foolish to try and say definitively that all defensive head coaches think a specific way. On the other hand, it's historical to say the Bills were committed to a heavy-run low-volume passing attack before Taylor ever signed - and as a camp body not expected to compete as a starter (to continue the history lesson). If you're claiming the team's run-first philosophy consistent over these past years is because of Taylor's limitations, I'd think it relevant and reasonable to note the Bills incessantly talked about just such a offensive scheme while TT was still living two states away. With our history, a story : Over at Rumbling there's a hard-core hater with the moniker BD-something-or-another. I swear Tyrod must have stole his woman, keyed his car, and kicked his dog for all the venom he's spewed on the QB. Well one day this guy announces (with his usual seething rage) that he plans to quantitatively prove how bad Taylor is when forced to pass - when TT has to put up big numbers of attempts. His next appearance was strangely muted because - it seems - the numbers said the exact opposite. Bless his heart - he's a grouchy curmudgeon but an honest one. There has never been any evidence Taylor can't perform equally well with 20, 25, 30, 35 attempts. People assume there must be but ..... sorry ..... there just isn't Edited November 2, 2017 by grb Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 5 teams in the top 10 in pass attempts this year have HCs with defensive backgrounds. For the record, I dont think its as simple as youre saying. Just saying. Be gentile. No, 3. You're talking pass attempts per game, right? https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/pass-attempts-per-game Only NE at 4, Seattle at 8 and Denver at 10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Bangarang Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 No, 3. You're talking pass attempts per game, right? https://www.teamrankings.com/nfl/stat/pass-attempts-per-game Only NE at 4, Seattle at 8 and Denver at 10 No, Im taking about total pass attempts. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Kelly the Dog Posted November 2, 2017 Share Posted November 2, 2017 No, Im taking about total pass attempts. So you want to penalize teams that have had a bye versus teams that haven't? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
transplantbillsfan Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 No, Im taking about total pass attempts. Well that's a misleading stat considering some teams have played 7 games and some have played 8. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GoBills808 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 On the other hand, it's historical to say the Bills were committed to a heavy-run low-volume passing attack before Taylor ever signed - and as a camp body not expected to compete as a starter (to continue the history lesson). If you're claiming the team's run-first philosophy consistent over these past years is because of Taylor's limitations, I'd think it relevant and reasonable to note the Bills incessantly talked about just such a offensive scheme while TT was still living two states away. With our history, a story : Over at Rumbling there's a hard-core hater with the moniker BD-something-or-another. I swear Tyrod must have stole his woman, keyed his car, and kicked his dog for all the venom he's spewed on the QB. Well one day this guy announces (with his usual seething rage) that he plans to quantitatively prove how bad Taylor is when forced to pass - when TT has to put up big numbers of attempts. His next appearance was strangely muted because - it seems - the numbers said the exact opposite. Bless his heart - he's a grouchy curmudgeon but an honest one. There has never been any evidence Taylor can't perform equally well with 20, 25, 30, 35 attempts. People assume there must be but ..... sorry ..... there just isn't I won't dispute that they wanted to be a run first team the last 3 years because of McCoy. It's logical. However, the passing volume or lack thereof since Taylor has been QB is stark to put it mildly. 2010: 19th in pass attempt per game 2011:10th 2012: 23rd 2013: 24th 2014: 13th Not a pass-heavy unit by any means, but nothing off the charts outside the realm of average. For whatever reason. Then, post-Taylor... 2015: 31st 2016: 32nd 2017: 32nd I'm of the opinion it has as much if not more to do with McCoy than Taylor, but to pretend that our passing game isn't limited by Taylor's particular skillset isn't reality. I'm not saying he can't or won't improve to the point where we'd be approaching the mean as far as production goes, although I think it's unlikely at this point. And it may not matter, because if they can continue to win with low production out of the passing game nobody (least of all me) will care. I just doubt you can, season to season, consistently field the most competitive team possible with such a glaringly underutilized passing attack. I guess we'll see. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SlimShady'sSpaceForce Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Im sorry but how does averages per game change significantly based on the number of games? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Luka Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Im sorry but how does averages per game change significantly based on the number of games? People can't math. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
sugashane69 Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 Yes...TT is a better than average QB. Give him weapons. That's all to be said! 👏👏👏 Get him weapons and some defense help to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pine Barrens Mafia Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 NO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John in Jax Posted November 3, 2017 Share Posted November 3, 2017 TO answer the OP: No, the Bills will be better off with a real QB. Anybody with eyesight who watches the games would surely have to agree. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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