vincec Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Bills have most players on the list of top 25 players with outsized contracts, per Barnwell. Nice work in cap management... http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20086567/the-nfl-25-best-big-money-contracts-adjusting-position-2017The conclusion: "Doug Whaley wasn't a bad player evaluator at all, especially given the bevy of street free agents who came into their own in Buffalo. But he consistently failed to properly value players." Agree? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Murica Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Bills have most players on the list of top 25 players with outsized contracts, per Barnwell. Nice work in cap management... http://www.espn.com/nfl/story/_/id/20086567/the-nfl-25-best-big-money-contracts-adjusting-position-2017 The conclusion: "Doug Whaley wasn't a bad player evaluator at all, especially given the bevy of street free agents who came into their own in Buffalo. But he consistently failed to properly value players." Agree? I mean, whose Job was it? Some say Whaley and some say Overdorf... We may never know. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 I mean, whose Job was it? Some say Whaley and some say Overdorf... We may never know. I like Whaley and don't necessarily disagree, but I'm sure he told Overdorf to try and make the numbers work for the players he wanted. Clay is a great example. They structured a ridiculous deal that Miami couldn't match and now they're stuck with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Blokestradamus Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Glenn - absolutely solid contract for a top-tier LT. Clay - the structure is absolutely awful and is worse than the dollar amount. Dareus - again, structure issue. Forfeiture of guarantees not being in makes it a bad deal in principle. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Murica Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Glenn - absolutely solid contract for a top-tier LT. Clay - the structure is absolutely awful and is worse than the dollar amount. Dareus - again, structure issue. Forfeiture of guarantees not being in makes it a bad deal in principle. They listed Glenn's contract, but, like you said its a solid contract. When they should have listed either the Clay contract or the Dareus contract. Both are gross, but, Dareus's contract is even more disgusting because of his off the field issues and it has no out clause for us. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Over 29 years of fanhood Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I think the DT baseline must be skewed. Some defenses can pick the up off of the street and some defenses demand immmense talent. Dareus is expensive, and risky, but on the field thus far, he plays up to his contract. Glenn is absolutely correct. Clay is a bust. Poor deal, inconsist player, without a reasonable out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I like Whaley and don't necessarily disagree, but I'm sure he told Overdorf to try and make the numbers work for the players he wanted. Clay is a great example. They structured a ridiculous deal that Miami couldn't match and now they're stuck with it. ...wonder what the HC's input would or should be....cannot see a HC subscribing to being force fed players solely on the GM's "wants"....if I'm the HC and responsible for "between the stripes", no way somebody is going to dictate to me what I get to work with...... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 Clay contract is tragic, they were determined to screw Miami and they screwed themselves. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 ...wonder what the HC's input would or should be....cannot see a HC subscribing to being force fed players solely on the GM's "wants"....if I'm the HC and responsible for "between the stripes", no way somebody is going to dictate to me what I get to work with...... I suspect that the HC outlined the positions that wanted to focus on or type of players that they were looking for and Whaley came up with a list of options to pursue. The breakdown came in how aggressively they went after those guys financially. Of course the HC is going to say "give me the best guy we can get at whatever price." It's up to Whaley to provide some perspective on what different guys are worth, IMO. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) I suspect that the HC outlined the positions that wanted to focus on or type of players that they were looking for and Whaley came up with a list of options to pursue. The breakdown came in how aggressively they went after those guys financially. Of course the HC is going to say "give me the best guy we can get at whatever price." It's up to Whaley to provide some perspective on what different guys are worth, IMO. ...not sure why Clay was the hot commodity chaser, unless the Miami strategy blew up in OBD's faces...Charles has hardly been a "picture of health" for the Buffalo contract he got IMO............ Injury HistorySeasonLeague Injury Details 2016 NFL Knee Strain Grade 1 Clay strained his right knee and he battled with soreness all season. However, he missed zero games. 2016 NFL Back Lower Lumbar Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Clay sprained his lower back which corresponds to a history of back injuries. He missed no games as a result. 2015 NFL Back Lower Lumbar Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Clay missed the final 3 games of 2015 with a pulled back. Lingering issues during preseason 2016. 2014 NFL Thigh Hamstring Sprain/Pull Unspecified Grade 1 Clay pulled his right hamstring in mid week training and missed the next 2 games. 2014 NFL Knee MCL Pull Grade 1 Clay pulled his right MCL during the preseason. He missed two preseason games but missed zero regular season games despite lingering pain. 2012 NFL Knee Meniscus Tear Charles Clay tore his meniscus in Week 15 and was placed on IR missing the last 2 games of the season. 2011 NFL Thigh Hamstring Strain Grade 2 Clay strained his right hamstring during the preseason. He missed two preseason games and two regular season games as a result of the injury. Edited July 18, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mike in Horseheads Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 I suspect that the HC outlined the positions that wanted to focus on or type of players that they were looking for and Whaley came up with a list of options to pursue. The breakdown came in how aggressively they went after those guys financially. Of course the HC is going to say "give me the best guy we can get at whatever price." It's up to Whaley to provide some perspective on what different guys are worth, IMO. Vince ...but Overdorf was supposed to be a cap expert. Didn't he have the pull to say no? Shouldn't he or someone be looking at comparable contracts before they say yes? I don't know Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 18, 2017 Author Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Vince ...but Overdorf was supposed to be a cap expert. Didn't he have the pull to say no? Shouldn't he or someone be looking at comparable contracts before they say yes? I don't know I always saw Overdorf as a glorified accountant who was familiar with all the ins and outs of the cap and managed the numbers to make the contracts work. Maybe he gave financial options as to how they might get a player or how much they have to spend on one, but I don't think he was the guy that said Marcel Dareus is probably worth $X or Cordy Glenn is worth $Y. That had to be Whaley. Or if not, it should have been IMO. Edited July 18, 2017 by vincec Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
OldTimeAFLGuy Posted July 18, 2017 Share Posted July 18, 2017 (edited) Vince ...but Overdorf was supposed to be a cap expert. Didn't he have the pull to say no? Shouldn't he or someone be looking at comparable contracts before they say yes? I don't know ...as far as Overdorf being THE Capologist and Contract Administrator?...yes those are his defined duties..as far as who has the ultimate and FINAL decision as to whether a player does contract with Buffalo is something we will never know IMO..... Edited July 18, 2017 by OldTimeAFLGuy Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dragonborn10 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Was it Whaley/Overdorf or is it just Buffalo??? Does Buffalo need to pay a premium to get players to stay/sign? The article does not mention that the Bills have not had to pay top money to a QB. This makes it easier to spend money elsewhere. I don't think any player that was let go or not retained was due to cap issues. Maybe Gilmore is the only player they would have kept if not for being so close to the cap. Article fails to mention good and bad decisions not to sign players. Spiller was allowed to walk - Very very Good. Hogan. I don't know what to say - probably bad as could have had with a reasonable tender. McKelvin - Good. Bradham - mixed. Seacry - mixed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Johnny Hammersticks Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I think the DT baseline must be skewed. Some defenses can pick the up off of the street and some defenses demand immmense talent. Dareus is expensive, and risky, but on the field thus far, he plays up to his contract. Glenn is absolutely correct. Clay is a bust. Poor deal, inconsist player, without a reasonable out. Agreed, bad deal, but Clay a bust? Didn't he lead the team in receptions? Receiving TD's? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Buffalo86 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 IMO, if Whaley knew what he was doing, he wouldn't have had to lean so heavily on the "expertise" of people like Brandon and Overdorf. I'm more optimistic about this team than I've been in ~10 years, and it's largely because he's gone. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
LeGOATski Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Classic "too many cooks in the kitchen" scenario for some teams, between coach/GM/accountant. That's why the coach-GM relationship is so crucial. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 The Glenn contract far from being too rich is a bargain. The Clay deal I hated the moment it was signed. Dareus I think there is an argument to be had. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlottebillsfan2 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I might be alone on this one but I would add McCoy to this list, $40 million with a $8 million avg per year. He is the second highest paid RB in the league. He finished 6th in the league in rushing with 1267 yards. I get it McCoy is a top tier RB, I just would not spend that kind of money on that position. I love that position with the rookie contracts. Draft one every couple years and have a solid vet as your number 2. Spend the money one your o-line. https://overthecap.com/position/running-back/ http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingYards/year/2016/seasontype/2 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JohnnyK Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Ralph is cheap!...oh wait Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I might be alone on this one but I would add McCoy to this list, $40 million with a $8 million avg per year. He is the second highest paid RB in the league. He finished 6th in the league in rushing with 1267 yards. I get it McCoy is a top tier RB, I just would not spend that kind of money on that position. I love that position with the rookie contracts. Draft one every couple years and have a solid vet as your number 2. Spend the money one your o-line. https://overthecap.com/position/running-back/ http://www.espn.com/nfl/statistics/player/_/stat/rushing/sort/rushingYards/year/2016/seasontype/2 It's a high contract, but he also finished 5th in yards from scrimmage with 1,623, and 4th in rushing & receiving TDs with 14. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 It's a high contract, but he also finished 5th in yards from scrimmage with 1,623, and 4th in rushing & receiving TDs with 14. Yep.... and if you are going to run an offense that is more than 50% run based then you want a proven top tier commodity back there rather than a random punt on a rookie. I think that is the point. If you have a Matt Ryan let's say.... then McCoy's contract is a luxury and "overpaid" but when you are going to lean on the run so much you better hve a top tier back. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffaloHokie13 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Yep.... and if you are going to run an offense that is more than 50% run based then you want a proven top tier commodity back there rather than a random punt on a rookie. I think that is the point. If you have a Matt Ryan let's say.... then McCoy's contract is a luxury and "overpaid" but when you are going to lean on the run so much you better hve a top tier back. And he finished at those ranks missing 1 start and really missing practically all of week 17 as well. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
vincec Posted July 19, 2017 Author Share Posted July 19, 2017 Ralph is cheap!...oh waitWell the Pegula's are certainly not cheap. That doesn't seem to have fixed anything however. Maybe Ralph knew something after all... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 .500 teams at Super Bowl contending team prices. That was a big issue I had with Whaley. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
GunnerBill Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 .500 teams at Super Bowl contending team prices. That was a big issue I had with Whaley. The irony as I see it is that he was accused of constantly butting heads with Rex and not sharing the vision.... but the 2015 spending spree on McCoy, Clay and Harvin (the latter two being his 2 worst moves as GM in my opinion) were absolutely requested by Rex and Roman. Clay's contract just sucks and I could have told you the day we signed Harvin it would be a lot of $$$s and not much production..... that is the Percy Harvin career pattern. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Magox Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I think this fairly encapsulates it almost perfectly. Doug Whaley wasn't a bad player evaluator at all, especially given the bevy of street free agents who came into their own in Buffalo. But he consistently failed to properly value players. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dulles Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 The irony as I see it is that he was accused of constantly butting heads with Rex and not sharing the vision.... but the 2015 spending spree on McCoy, Clay and Harvin (the latter two being his 2 worst moves as GM in my opinion) were absolutely requested by Rex and Roman. Clay's contract just sucks and I could have told you the day we signed Harvin it would be a lot of $$$s and not much production..... that is the Percy Harvin career pattern. Harvin's agent is a genius! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Clay contract is tragic, they were determined to screw Miami and they screwed themselves. Did they? Have you seen Miami's TE production since Clay left? I'm not saying Clay deserves top 5 position money but he's been our 2nd best passing option. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Charlottebillsfan2 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Did they? Have you seen Miami's TE production since Clay left? I'm not saying Clay deserves top 5 position money but he's been our 2nd best passing option. Clay was 18th in yards last season for TE's. 552 yards 4 td's. When he is your second best passing option you have some issues. Bottom line horrible contract. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Jokeman Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Clay was 18th in yards last season for TE's. 552 yards 4 td's. When he is your second best passing option you have some issues. Bottom line horrible contract. That or a horrible QB throwing to him or both. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BarleyNY Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I mean, whose Job was it? Some say Whaley and some say Overdorf... We may never know. A GM who doesn't have final say regarding contract structure and dollar figures isn't a GM. Ultimately it was Whaley's responsibility or he was only GM in name. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 I think the DT baseline must be skewed. Some defenses can pick the up off of the street and some defenses demand immmense talent. Dareus is expensive, and risky, but on the field thus far, he plays up to his contract. Glenn is absolutely correct. Clay is a bust. Poor deal, inconsist player, without a reasonable out. Clay should be an absolute weapon for this team. He was one of the players I feared on Miami before we got him. He was a rising star TE who could be used all over the field. Next to QB, TE is the position this team has neglected most. Clay is inconsistent because of his qb. I am fine with that deal and if we had a qb who could get him the ball, he'd be a huge weapon for us. And a lot of this is hindsight. If the Bills let Dareus walk after he was looking like a Warren Sapp, people would talk about us being a farm team for the rest of the NFL. If focused and not in a terrible defense, Dareus could be one of the best DTs in the NFL. Fun fact: you have to pay talented player. Fun fact: you have to pay them more to play in Buffalo. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
SoCal Deek Posted July 19, 2017 Share Posted July 19, 2017 Here's the deal. Like with most other threads on here it all comes back to the QB position. Do you think Dareus screws around if he has to face Tom Brady in the locker room? Do you think Clay doesn't look a whole lot more productive with Manning in the backfield? Do you think Gilmore doesn't wrap up on tackles if he knows he'll be letting down a QB that can bring the Bills back in the fourth quarter? Get a productive leader at QB and ALL of these contracts will suddenly look a whole lot better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Recommended Posts