Kaepernick and the National Anthem

[aristocrat]

The failed drug war has caused the racial divide in this country. legalize drugs, treat people instead of imprisoning them and spend tons on education. No more police army, border wars, gang violence etc.

[What a Tuel]

 

I think this is a very accurate description of the current state of mind in law enforcement, but I would add in a feeling of paranoia to go along with this aggressiveness. Police officers know how many firearms there are in our country just as we do. The conservative estimate for the number of firearms available for use is over 150 million. So I think there is a "bunker" mentality in law enforcement, where the feeling is that all the criminals are armed and out to kill them.

Add poor training into this mix and it's not surprising that the first thing a cop is going to do is pull his weapon.

And you're absolutely right.........aggression only leads to escalation, and we see the results almost every day.

 

This isn't paranoia. Unjustified police shootings are few and far between. Yes there are some cases where a police officer is too aggressive or trigger happy. However with hundreds of millions interactions with the public each year, only about 1,000 people die each year by police shooting. That includes all the justified ones, armed people, threatening people, all races, all genders. That is a pretty good track record for a country of 330,000,000 people.

Edited August 29, 2016 by What a Tuel

[IDBillzFan]

The failed drug war has caused the racial divide in this country. legalize drugs, treat people instead of imprisoning them and spend tons on education. No more police army, border wars, gang violence etc.

 

Legalize which drugs?

[Deranged Rhino]

Tried to get through as much of this thread as I could, but wow. As someone who fought 25 years for that flag and this nation I have to say, CK absolutely has the right to sit down during the anthem. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. Do I think there are much better ways of expressing himself that will actually do some good? Absolutely. But fundamentally, I fought for his right to do exactly what he did. He means nothing to me, and IMO he's just trying to draw attention from the fact that he sucks at football while trying to remain relevant. There are millions of Americans that do things I personally find offensive and morally wrong, of all races, but they have the right to do so. That's what makes this country great. Although, we are going through a very tough time within our borders right now, there is not another country in this world I would rather live and be a part of, and I've been to many of them. This great nation has been through many controversies since it's inception and will continue to, but I just hope that we come out the other side, as we have in the past and continue to be the greatest country on this planet.

 

The point is that he had a huge effect on his community.

 

The second part is impossible to say. It could be that both things simultaneously was the best way to go. Sometimes agitate to change is better served. Not all of the Malcolm X or Black Panther movement was so violent. I personally think Ali's stance had an enormous effect on the country and its people's perspective.

 

Of course he did.

 

As for GG's second part, it's not as if either King's movement or the Black Panther's/Malcom X weren't penetrated by the DoJ/FBI at the time with the intent to destroy, destabilize, and discredit all those movements. Not that GG will want to address those variables in his question, but it's important to remember that as long as there have been protest groups there have been active countermeasures taken by various elements within the government for various reasons.

 

But I know. I'm talking crazy, after all, the American government has never actively tried to keep black folk as second class citizens, at least not in recent history.

 

The failed drug war has caused the racial divide in this country. legalize drugs, treat people instead of imprisoning them and spend tons on education. No more police army, border wars, gang violence etc.

 

The war on drugs certainly exacerbated the racial divisions in the country but the cause predates that policy by centuries.

[3rdand12]

He accomplished his goal.

Now he needs to be released from the team and move to canada..

Not because he is in the wrong.

Because he needs to find a flag he likes. This one aint changin'

Edited August 29, 2016 by 3rdand12

[GG]

 

 

Of course he did.

 

As for GG's second part, it's not as if either King's movement or the Black Panther's/Malcom X weren't penetrated by the DoJ/FBI at the time with the intent to destroy, destabilize, and discredit all those movements. Not that GG will want to address those variables in his question, but it's important to remember that as long as there have been protest groups there have been active countermeasures taken by various elements within the government for various reasons.

 

But I know. I'm talking crazy, after all, the American government has never actively tried to keep black folk as second class citizens, at least not in recent history.

 

 

The war on drugs certainly exacerbated the racial divisions in the country but the cause predates that policy by centuries.

 

Are you saying that the FBI shouldn't have been actively looking to destroy an organization whose ultimate goal was an armed rebellion against the US?

 

And both of you are evading the question.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

Are you saying that the FBI shouldn't have been actively looking to destroy an organization whose ultimate goal was an armed rebellion against the US?

 

And both of you are evading the question.

 

I'm saying your question is completely ignoring the outside factors that played into all of the civil rights movements then and today. You're acting as if these groups exist in a vacuum when they do not.

 

King's ultimate goal was NOT armed rebellion. Nice dodge.

[Wayne Arnold]

 

You're not paying attention to this thread if you don't think there has been a number of posters slamming him for speaking out.

 

You know what promises change never happens? Not speaking out. Or being cowed into silence by the brainwashed masses that think protesting elements of the country which are flawed is the same thing as disrespecting the entire country.

 

You know you're dealing with an open-minded person who's all for open debate and embracing other ideas when he pulls the "brainwashed" card.

[GG]

 

I'm saying your question is completely ignoring the outside factors that played into all of the civil rights movements then and today. You're acting as if these groups exist in a vacuum when they do not.

 

King's ultimate goal was NOT armed rebellion. Nice dodge.

 

I'm not ignoring the outside factors, but they are tangential to what happened since that time, even though the left can't help but cling to history as if it's still happening today.

 

Just look at this thread, most of the rationalization for the racial division still brings up events that happened fifty years ago and isn't relevant to today's society or culture. In that fifty year time span, the governmental control of the most populated urban areas has moved over to minority leadership, with full control of local governments and budgets. Yet on many social and economic indicators, life for blacks is much worse than it was in the early sixties. Is that all due to the whites' conspiracy to keep blacks as second class citizens?

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

I think my African-American wife said it best. "Until ESPN and Black sports figures start protesting 'black on black' crime, I don't take them seriously". My lily white butt had no response as I agree with most or all of what Kaepernick said. His message is right on but his avenue may not be the best IMO

[aristocrat]

 

Legalize which drugs?

 

All of em. Drugs are still just as easily obtained as 30 years ago. The war on it has failed and it's time to approach it in a different way. Decriminalize, and treat the problem. You can find ways to actually tax it and bring the illegal money into the economy. You save money on police, border, prisons, coast guard hospitals and on and on. Then instead of having drug users unable to gain employment cause of a record they might have a way of helping themselves.

[Gugny]

I think my African-American wife said it best. "Until ESPN and Black sports figures start protesting 'black on black' crime, I don't take them seriously". My lily white butt had no response as I agree with most or all of what Kaepernick said. His message is right on but his avenue may not be the best IMO

 

I'm sorry, but I have to ask ... would you ever go back?

[BillsCelticsAngelsBama]

 

I'm sorry, but I have to ask ... would you ever go back?

Dude, She is one in a million..... not because of color but content of character.... her family is awesome..... I know it wasn't a very serious question but I give a sincere response.

[Gugny]

Dude, She is one in a million..... not because of color but content of character.... her family is awesome..... I know it wasn't a very serious question but I give a sincere response.

 

[Deranged Rhino]

 

You know you're dealing with an open-minded person who's all for open debate and embracing other ideas when he pulls the "brainwashed" card.

 

I'll take missing the point for $100, Alex.

 

 

I'm not ignoring the outside factors, but they are tangential to what happened since that time, even though the left can't help but cling to history as if it's still happening today.

 

 

It seems like you are when you ask questions like 'what did Ali's protest do for the black community' and then you completely ignore the lasting impact he had on not just black culture but American culture -- primarily because of the stance he took and the sacrifice he bore because the US Government wanted to silence him.

 

Then you double down on that by asking if the black community would have been better off listening to MLK over Malcom X and act as if either of those movements were pure while ignoring the fact the US government not only penetrated and corrupted those organizations, they most certainly played a part in the murder of both Dr. King and Malcolm X.

 

If that's not ignoring outside factors, it's certainly at the least ignorant of the actual history of that era.

 

 

Just look at this thread, most of the rationalization for the racial division still brings up events that happened fifty years ago and isn't relevant to today's society or culture. In that fifty year time span, the governmental control of the most populated urban areas has moved over to minority leadership, with full control of local governments and budgets. Yet on many social and economic indicators, life for blacks is much worse than it was in the early sixties. Is that all due to the whites' conspiracy to keep blacks as second class citizens?

 

The war on drugs isn't 50 years old, it's happening today still as are the disproportionate amount of prosecution and jailing of minorities. The events that sparked this current protest didn't happen 50 years ago, they happened this year, last year, the year before and so on.

 

I'm not here to defend BLM or say their message is 100% spot on, but it's absolute folly to try to argue as you seem to be arguing that there is nothing wrong with the system today when it comes to how minorities are treated.

[Kelly the Dog]

So if she's one in a million, there's, like, 44 (22?) just like her running around the US? I need to get out more.

[boyst]

So if she's one in a million, there's, like, 44 (22?) just like her running around the US? I need to get out more.

I say this closes the thread

[stony]

 

I'm not ignoring the outside factors, but they are tangential to what happened since that time, even though the left can't help but cling to history as if it's still happening today.

 

Just look at this thread, most of the rationalization for the racial division still brings up events that happened fifty years ago and isn't relevant to today's society or culture. In that fifty year time span, the governmental control of the most populated urban areas has moved over to minority leadership, with full control of local governments and budgets. Yet on many social and economic indicators, life for blacks is much worse than it was in the early sixties. Is that all due to the whites' conspiracy to keep blacks as second class citizens?

 

A) A bit of a generalization, but certainly there's truth to this.

 

B) Such as? Not being contrarian for the sake of it, but Jim Crow was still rampant in the south. Schools were segregated. I'm not well versed on the economic indicators you speak of, but socially, it's hard to argue it's worse now than in 1962.

 

And this is from someone who thinks the racial divide in the US is still huge.

[ExiledInIllinois]

So if she's one in a million, there's, like, 44 (22?) just like her running around the US? I need to get out more.

"...And friends they may think it's a movement."

[dwight in philly]

well said jim.... http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2016/08/29/jim-harbaugh-i-dont-respect-kaepernicks-motivation-or-action/