Kaepernick and the National Anthem

[Deranged Rhino]

 

And why is this oppressive? Do we have significant evidence that these people aren't breaking the law? Are you just upset with the laws? Vote to get them changed. Until then the police have a job to do and that is enforcing the law.

 

It's an amazing time when cops are blamed for criminals breaking the law. I am not sure American's know what oppression is.

 

You mean he should organize a protest of some kind using his constitutionally protected rights to free speech and protest? Kind of like CK is doing?

 

.... Funny how that works.

[White Linen]

Of course it's not hopeless. They can vote for Trump! After all, what do they have to lose?

 

Nice work!

[gobillsinytown]

Freedom is a two way street.

 

If we believe that this country stands for freedom and therefore freedom of expression, then we have to respect the expressions of people who aren't in alignment with ours.

 

Personally, I really don't care if Colin doesn't stand up for the National Anthem. What I would object to is if Colin were to face prison time in expressing his beliefs, which he won't.

 

That being said, he will face the consequences of negative public opinion for this action. In other words.........other citizens of this country who don't agree with his stance and are expressing their feelings.

 

If I were to put myself in Colin's shoes, I might rethink my strategy. There are far more effective ways of supporting his cause than sitting down for the National Anthem. For example: Financially supporting organizations that believe as he does. Since he's quite wealthy, he can afford to do so.

[Deranged Rhino]

 

He's not getting slammed for speaking out. He's getting slammed for the false gesture of speaking out and addressing a symptom but not the ailment.

 

Very similar to Ali's grandstanding act. How did his protest help out the community he was protesting for?

 

You're not paying attention to this thread if you don't think there has been a number of posters slamming him for speaking out.

 

You know what promises change never happens? Not speaking out. Or being cowed into silence by the brainwashed masses that think protesting elements of the country which are flawed is the same thing as disrespecting the entire country.

[boyst]

Your conscience.

I'm a sociopath and dyslexic dog

[GaryPinC]

I think dictionary definitions can be too limiting at times. For instance, is the inclusion or exclusion of an individual because of his race considered racism? Because that isn't considered in the definition above, which seems to only point to the aspects of superiority and inferiority in its description.

Maybe it can seem limiting. But I would say that it is needed. When you overgeneralize a definition like racism, despite the reality of the situation people will react to the base definition which only serves to infame the situation. The shock value can at times be good to make the offending person think, but for me looking at all the "safe space" stuff, I think it's come time to expand our minds by defining and reexamining specific terms to make both sides think more deeply.

 

To borrow your example, if black individuals are being included simply because of their race, then it may not be racism. It may be an equal opportunity situation, and that's not racism. If a white decision-maker excludes black individuals who are are being loud and disrespectful, there may be racism, it may be discrimination, or it may be that none of the other people were loud and disrespectful no matter what their race.

 

The thing is, are the blacks who were excluded simply thinking "racism" and absolving their own behavior or are they willing to look at things more carefully, and take responsibility for their role in the problem?

[Kelly the Dog]

He's not getting slammed for speaking out. He's getting slammed for the false gesture of speaking out and addressing a symptom but not the ailment.

 

Very similar to Ali's grandstanding act. How did his protest help out the community he was protesting for?

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/muhammad-ali-and-the-importance-of-identity/485723/

[K-9]

Mike and Mike mentioned a tweet by a rich black athlete (sorry I don't know who it is) who said that when he was poor and spoke out about social issues, people said he was bitter. After he made millions and spoke out about social issues, people said he was ungrateful. So he asked the question, when can I speak out about social issues? I found that interesting.

[What a Tuel]

 

You mean he should organize a protest of some kind using his constitutionally protected rights to free speech and protest? Kind of like CK is doing?

 

.... Funny how that works.

 

I don't have a problem with him speaking out or doing whatever. I think he is an idiot and wrong though. Especially about "bodies in the streets"

[K-9]

let me see if I can construct this.

 

Its a fine line of spirit of the law. The very thing being debated here, of sorts. Few others would have had the privilege Ali was granted by Scotus. Few others would have had the benefit of the doubt.

 

And the gray area is gray. The law was overturned. Laws do that. They're changed over time with social acceptance, often. These are obvious things I know you know. But before that law was over turned. Right or wrong. Constitutional or not. He was in the wrong. Morally, he was right. It was his own belief. There is nothing wrong with that. If we went to prison for it, if he could not box for 10 yrs... that's a choice he had to make. And I'm sure he stands by it in his casket. The guy was as strong of will as their is. But during that time. He was doing something defined as illegal.

 

It doesn't make it right. Things dont have to be not wrong and not still right. Not all wrongs have a right. In this case his right was reestablished. But what he did was wrong.

He paid a hefty price for such benefit of the doubt; one that really can't be quantified. How do you measure 3 years of his best athletic prime and earning potential? And he got NO benefit of the doubt until his case reached the SCOTUS. Not an inch by a Justice Department that was hell bent on making a political example out of him.

[GG]

http://www.theatlantic.com/entertainment/archive/2016/06/muhammad-ali-and-the-importance-of-identity/485723/

 

And the conclusion of the article, especially through the lens of time is ....?

 

Who was more right, the grandfather or the father?

 

Asked another way, would blacks be farther along the socioeconomic strata in the last two generations if they adopted more of Dr. King's teachings, than early Malcom X or Black Panther teachings?

[gobillsinytown]

does anybody give any thought to the hiring practices of the police forces

the appear often to hire people who already have been predisposed to pulling the trigger or are being trained to pull the trigger. They need to be more selective in the personalities they hire.

Modern police forces are armed with weapons most armies would cherish, but the issue is most of the confrontations that police have are with it's own citizens and not a foreign army.

don't come back with the police have the right to protect themselves (we know that is true) but all this leads to is police training. They are taught to be aggressive. They are not taught to be non violent solution orientated.

Police are not on patrol in Afghanistan, they are in a US city. I dislike the Black Lives Matter organization....I understand it I think but I see the issue is that impoverished lives matter,

If the cop is a racist his boss should pay the penalty for allowing him on the force. If the cop is too aggressive his boss should pay the penalty for allowing him on the force.

Stop and frisk was dumb, but stop and talk was not. Many impoverished people are by nature aggressive, many in the poor neighborhoods are aggressive, the cops have the keys to stop this cycle. Aggression vs aggression is not the solution.

 

I think this is a very accurate description of the current state of mind in law enforcement, but I would add in a feeling of paranoia to go along with this aggressiveness. Police officers know how many firearms there are in our country just as we do. The conservative estimate for the number of firearms available for use is over 150 million. So I think there is a "bunker" mentality in law enforcement, where the feeling is that all the criminals are armed and out to kill them.

Add poor training into this mix and it's not surprising that the first thing a cop is going to do is pull his weapon.

And you're absolutely right.........aggression only leads to escalation, and we see the results almost every day.

[ExiledInIllinois]

Should Native Americans have to stand?

[USMCBillsFan]

Tried to get through as much of this thread as I could, but wow. As someone who fought 25 years for that flag and this nation I have to say, CK absolutely has the right to sit down during the anthem. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. Do I think there are much better ways of expressing himself that will actually do some good? Absolutely. But fundamentally, I fought for his right to do exactly what he did. He means nothing to me, and IMO he's just trying to draw attention from the fact that he sucks at football while trying to remain relevant. There are millions of Americans that do things I personally find offensive and morally wrong, of all races, but they have the right to do so. That's what makes this country great. Although, we are going through a very tough time within our borders right now, there is not another country in this world I would rather live and be a part of, and I've been to many of them. This great nation has been through many controversies since it's inception and will continue to, but I just hope that we come out the other side, as we have in the past and continue to be the greatest country on this planet.

[CommonCents]

Mike and Mike mentioned a tweet by a rich black athlete (sorry I don't know who it is) who said that when he was poor and spoke out about social issues, people said he was bitter. After he made millions and spoke out about social issues, people said he was ungrateful. So he asked the question, when can I speak out about social issues? I found that interesting.

The best time to speak out is when you have lost 30 pounds of muscle, been benched for Blaine Gabbert, and recently been fined for saying racially insensitive remarks at your place of employment!! But wait....first you want to make sure you gain a reputation as a self absorbed ass hat...then when everything is pointed south you take your stand and flip the script on Merica.

 

I'm done walking around calling opposing playing the N word, I'm now ready to lead a movement to end oppression. Yeah ok. Ray Rice, Greg Hardy and Josh Brown are going to hold marriage counseling courses for anyone that's interested.

[Kelly the Dog]

And the conclusion of the article, especially through the lens of time is ....?

 

Who was more right, the grandfather or the father?

 

Asked another way, would blacks be farther along the socioeconomic strata in the last two generations if they adopted more of Dr. King's teachings, than early Malcom X or Black Panther teachings?

The point is that he had a huge effect on his community.

 

The second part is impossible to say. It could be that both things simultaneously was the best way to go. Sometimes agitate to change is better served. Not all of the Malcolm X or Black Panther movement was so violent. I personally think Ali's stance had an enormous effect on the country and its people's perspective.

[ExiledInIllinois]

 

I think this is a very accurate description of the current state of mind in law enforcement, but I would add in a feeling of paranoia to go along with this aggressiveness. Police officers know how many firearms there are in our country just as we do. The conservative estimate for the number of firearms available for use is over 150 million. So I think there is a "bunker" mentality in law enforcement, where the feeling is that all the criminals are armed and out to kill them.

Add poor training into this mix and it's not surprising that the first thing a cop is going to do is pull his weapon.

And you're absolutely right.........aggression only leads to escalation, and we see the results almost every day.

The answer is obviously: more guns!

 

:-/ :-/

Tried to get through as much of this thread as I could, but wow. As someone who fought 25 years for that flag and this nation I have to say, CK absolutely has the right to sit down during the anthem. Do I agree with it? Absolutely not. Do I think there are much better ways of expressing himself that will actually do some good? Absolutely. But fundamentally, I fought for his right to do exactly what he did. He means nothing to me, and IMO he's just trying to draw attention from the fact that he sucks at football while trying to remain relevant. There are millions of Americans that do things I personally find offensive and morally wrong, of all races, but they have the right to do so. That's what makes this country great. Although, we are going through a very tough time within our borders right now, there is not another country in this world I would rather live and be a part of, and I've been to many of them. This great nation has been through many controversies since it's inception and will continue to, but I just hope that we come out the other side, as we have in the past and continue to be the greatest country on this planet.

Yep. And here we sit and give him time talking about it. Page after page.

[8-8 Forever?]

well, that caps off his football career... maybe he's positioning himself for liberal politics, may be smarter than we think. watch him show up on the ballot in Cali. somewhere within the next couple years

[DriveFor1Outta5]

I've just finished reading countless posts on this topic. I think this topic has really jumped the shark. The real question imo is should we expect everyone to stand for the anthem out of respect? It's as simple as that. If your answer is yes, Kaepernick was completely out of line regardless of what his political beliefs are. He should be using a different avenue to express his beliefs that don't disrespect people such as our servicemen and women. If you don't see it as disrespectful then you'd have no problem with it. I think we've gone off the rails arguing about whether or not we agree with his thoughts on race in America. The real question is the appropriateness of sitting down during the anthem. Trust me when I say that the majority to NFL players likely agree on Kaepenicks thoughts on race, they just wouldn't sit during the anthem. This is what always amazing me about sports fans. The fact that they seem completely out of touch with the reality of the human side of the guys playing the game.

Edited August 29, 2016 by DriveFor1Outta5

[K-9]

The point is that he had a huge effect on his community.

 

The second part is impossible to say. It could be that both things simultaneously was the best way to go. Sometimes agitate to change is better served. Not all of the Malcolm X or Black Panther movement was so violent. I personally think Ali's stance had an enormous effect on the country and its people's perspective.

Ali's stand transcended race as it was accepted as a symbol for the entire anti-war movement which was peaking at the same time he was being prosecuted. And Ali certainly never adopted the entire black population in his cause. That was thrust upon him by black and white America alike.