Cheatriot at it again

[Green Lightning]

So they were creative and it was hard to react to on the fly because the defense wasn't prepared? Sounds like when the Dolphins beat them with the wildcat.

No, not really. Wildcat needed no rule interpretations or last second eligibility announcements. Just a great new wrinkle in formations.

[MattM]

The refs have no obligation to announce anything to you or I. I was simply relaying the verbiage of the rule I read. The ref had to communicate it to 1 man as the minimum.

 

In a loud stadium or if there's mic trouble, or in this case a hurry up- Id guess there's a signal or direct connect and not reliance on stadium pa and the defense having to determine between important announcements and normal jibber jabber

 

Harbaugh also seemed upset about time to locate and adjust, not that they were never told. I'm not sure the refs are required to hold the play so the defense can adjust its matchups and playcalls any more than if a rb splits wide though.

But that's exactly what the rule says--read the last sentence of Art 3, section 1--it mentions not starting the play until the referee is "back in position" after telling the defense, which to me (and Harbaugh) is where they screwed up here, as it sounds like they allowed the snap almost immediately after telling the D who was ineligible.

[OJ's Glove]

I was at the game, and every play where this issue happened, the ref announced to the entire stadium that Vereen was reporting as ineligible. Just because you don't hear it on TV, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I heard it.

 

Vinovich even additionally announced over the PA "Don't cover 34!" (which he shouldn't technically have said as it is direct advice to the defense) because Harbaugh was pissing and moaning and didn't know what was going on. All the referees were in proper position when the ball was snapped.

 

Belichick knew the rule. So did the refs, I guarantee BB asked the refs about it before the game to make sure it was kosher before he tried it. The Ravens coaching staff didn't understand it. The NFL confrmed that everything BB and the refs did was consistent with the rules. Tough darts.

 

Threads like this just showcase stupid blind ignorance and jealous bias by opposing fans. Give it a rest. I appreciate the knowledgable Bills fans trying to educate the haters on this issue.

Edited January 12, 2015 by OJ's Glove

[NoSaint]

But that's exactly what the rule says--read the last sentence of Art 3, section 1--it mentions not starting the play until the referee is "back in position" after telling the defense, which to me (and Harbaugh) is where they screwed up here, as it sounds like they allowed the snap almost immediately after telling the D who was ineligible.

Here's harbaughs quote:

 

We wanted an opportunity to be able to ID who the eligible players were," Harbaugh said. "What [the Patriots] were doing was they announce the ineligible player and then Tom [brady] would take them to the line right away and snap the ball before we had a chance to figure out who was lined up where. That was the deception part of it. It was clearly deception.

from that I take the ref was announcing the player then when the pats huried to the line the defense had trouble figuring out where the 5 ineligible on the line were. There's nothing in the rule about holding the offense so the defense can realign after they see where everyone lines up. It was a legal formation. Harbaugh says it was announced Edited January 12, 2015 by NoSaint

[Fadingpain]

I find this issue very interesting, and yes, this could easily lead to some rule changes in the off-season if a big enough stink is created.

 

By the way, if you think Doug Marrone would have been smart enough to devise this scheme (playing the role of New England) or smart enough to run on the field and complain about it after recognizing it (playing the role of Harbaugh) you are high. He would have just been clueless on either side of this dispute.

 

It's enjoyable to see high level coaching performing at a high level, on both sides of this issue.

And thank God Doug is gone; he effectively fired himself at a time when Pegula was prepared to offer him a contract extension!

 

This is a miracle and we Bills fans are all very lucky on this night.

[Mango]

I think there is a Grey area in terms of cheating. The part that is iffy is if the RB can be ineligible 5 yards outside the tackle. I believe the rule is it has to be last man on the line.

 

If that's not the case not cheating. If the refs are to report it, and didn't timely enough, that's not on NE, that's on the refs.

[Beerball]

I was at the game, and every play where this issue happened, the ref announced to the entire stadium that Vereen was reporting as ineligible. Just because you don't hear it on TV, doesn't mean it didn't happen. I heard it.

 

Vinovich even additionally announced over the PA "Don't cover 34!" (which he shouldn't technically have said as it is direct advice to the defense) because Harbaugh was pissing and moaning and didn't know what was going on. All the referees were in proper position when the ball was snapped.

 

Belichick knew the rule. So did the refs, I guarantee BB asked the refs about it before the game to make sure it was kosher before he tried it. The Ravens coaching staff didn't understand it. The NFL confrmed that everything BB and the refs did was consistent with the rules. Tough darts.

 

Threads like this just showcase stupid blind ignorance and jealous bias by opposing fans. Give it a rest. I appreciate the knowledgable Bills fans trying to educate the haters on this issue.

Thanks.

 

In the future leave words like haters out of your posts. They don't add any value.

[MattM]

Thanks.

 

In the future leave words like haters out of your posts. They don't add any value.

How about, "in the future, don't post here, !@#$?" Look at the guy's screen name, for goodness sake--if that ain't a troll, I've never seen one. Personally, I can't wait until New England* sucks again--will be fun watching all of their front-runner fans go back to rooting for other teams. Did you see Manning today? That will be Brady, too, in two years or less. Father Time is undefeated thus far....

Here's harbaughs quote: from that I take the ref was announcing the player then when the pats huried to the line the defense had trouble figuring out where the 5 ineligible on the line were. There's nothing in the rule about holding the offense so the defense can realign after they see where everyone lines up. It was a legal formation. Harbaugh says it was announced

But there is something in the rule about waiting for the ref to get back in position after notifying the defense before starting play. That may be what didn't really occur here, depending on the mode of communication used.

[Pneumonic]

Not sure what the big stink is ..... Chip Kelly ran such plays this year.

[NoSaint]

I think there is a Grey area in terms of cheating. The part that is iffy is if the RB can be ineligible 5 yards outside the tackle. I believe the rule is it has to be last man on the line.

 

If that's not the case not cheating. If the refs are to report it, and didn't timely enough, that's not on NE, that's on the refs.

There's no rule about the spread - just that you need 7 on the line and the outside two have to be eligible, if I'm remembering correct (regardless both teams and the nfl all agree the formation was legal)

How about, "in the future, don't post here, !@#$?" Look at the guy's screen name, for goodness sake--if that ain't a troll, I've never seen one. Personally, I can't wait until New England* sucks again--will be fun watching all of their front-runner fans go back to rooting for other teams. Did you see Manning today? That will be Brady, too, in two years or less. Father Time is undefeated thus far....

 

But there is something in the rule about waiting for the ref to get back in position after notifying the defense before starting play. That may be what didn't really occur here, depending on the mode of communication used.

Has anyone argued the ref was out of position at the snap?

[4merper4mer]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_Rule5_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf

 

See especially: Section 3, Article 1. Section 2, Article 10 and 11.

 

There was a problem if the referee was not performing Sec. 3, Art. 1 and giving the defense the information and allowing the ball to be snapped. What the Patriots did was legal, but the officials did not officiate the game properly, IMO, giving them a clear competitive advantage.

 

If the Patriots try this again, I hope the officials are instructed properly.

 

Defensively, I think you line up in press and overwhelm the 4 blockers. They are basically playing 10 on 11 and relying on deception (and the officials to help with it) to get uncovered receivers.

 

 

This is why I think the whole thing is bogus and makes the Pats look more like pathetic little turd burglars.

 

Rules are rules and whatever you can do to trick your opponent like a hidden ball trick in baseball or wildcat or statue of liberty are great. The problem I have is that the Patriots purposely did this not just to trick the Ravens, but to trick the game officials too. They counted on the refs being too confused to give the Ravens time to react and this is exactly what happened. If the refs were properly instructed, they would have handled it differently and the Ravens would have had a chance. By the refs acting so slowly, the ravens had to account for more players than any defense has ever had to account for and they had a nanosecond to make it happen.

 

The league should realize that their officials were made to look like bumbling buffoons on purpose by the Pats. It would be real nice to see the league throw in a few timely holding calls against the Pats next week to subtly let them know who is boss. Unfortunately Kraft still seems to be boss.

Edited January 12, 2015 by 4merper4mer

[Sisyphean Bills]

 

 

This is why I think the whole thing is bogus and makes the Pats look more like pathetic little turd burglars.

 

Rules are rules and whatever you can do to trick your opponent like a hidden ball trick in baseball or wildcat or statue of liberty are great. The problem I have is that the Patriots purposely did this not just to trick the Ravens, but to trick the game officials too. They counted on the refs being too confused to give the Ravens time to react and this is exactly what happened. If the refs were properly instructed, they would have handled it differently and the Ravens would have had a chance. By the refs acting so slowly, the ravens had to account for more players than any defense has ever had to account for and they had a nanosecond to make it happen.

 

The league should realize that their officials were made to look like bumbling buffoons on purpose by the Pats. It would be real nice to see the league throw in a few timely holding calls against the Pats next week to subtly let them know who is boss. Unfortunately Kraft still seems to be boss.

 

The Commissioner didn't look overly thrilled to be shown in the stands. Was that a Red Sox cap?

 

And Bill Vinovich is supposedly going to ref the Super Bowl. Hmm.

[Buffalo Barbarian]

I know it's usually not allowed here but I gotta say I love it. Brady's comment: read the rulebook! This is a way to avoid the annoying rule that defenses get to sub just because an offense has subbed. It was fun to watch Harbaugh (damn, why didn't I think of this first?) meltdown over being caught with his khakis down.

 

 

Gotta admire Bellys brain, would love to see him as the commanding General in war.

[papazoid]

perfectly legal.

 

 

NFL morning after: Bill Belitrick is a genius

 

 

http://profootballtalk.nbcsports.com/2015/01/12/nfl-morning-after-bill-belichick-is-a-genius/

[machine gun kelly]

its not cheating, its smart. as much as I hate to say it but brady is right they did nothing wrong. they exploited a loophole In the rules

I'm with you. Even with young kids, when I coached flag for my boys, if it's in the rules, trickery and creativity just shows your opponent you can take advantage of every aspect of the game. Everyone on this board knows I can't stand Belicheck and Brady, mainly because they keep beating us, but they took advantage of the rules. I love Harbaugh as a coach, but he was caught with his pants down.

 

Belicheck keeps showing us he is the best coach of his era. No one else thought of using this tactic. I think with an off season, the DC will figure out what to do, but for now, they out coached the Ravens.

 

It was too bad as I thought the Ravens for the most part outplayed the Patriots. This will be a good Superbowl. I don't see the Colts beating the Pats, so the Pays unfortunately will make the SB, but they will be the better match against the Packers or Hawks. The NFC in my opinion have the better teams.

[NoSaint]

I'm with you. Even with young kids, when I coached flag for my boys, if it's in the rules, trickery and creativity just shows your opponent you can take advantage of every aspect of the game. Everyone on this board knows I can't stand Belicheck and Brady, mainly because they keep beating us, but they took advantage of the rules. I love Harbaugh as a coach, but he was caught with his pants down.

 

Belicheck keeps showing us he is the best coach of his era. No one else thought of using this tactic. I think with an off season, the DC will figure out what to do, but for now, they out coached the Ravens.

 

It was too bad as I thought the Ravens for the most part outplayed the Patriots. This will be a good Superbowl. I don't see the Colts beating the Pats, so the Pays unfortunately will make the SB, but they will be the better match against the Packers or Hawks. The NFC in my opinion have the better teams.

Even more than taking advantage of the rules - they took advantage of coaches assuming things would be business as usual.

 

This morning on mike and mike they are saying that they saw the refs signal and have had people writing in from Boston that it was announced in the stadium. They also made the point that despite looking funny, the formation dictates who is ineligible regardless and the defense should've simply gone with the 2 outside guys on the line as eligible instead of looking at jersey numbers.

[DC Bills Fan]

agreed. i wish our coaches were that smart. hopefully they are now.

 

Ummm.. The new coach is Rex, so they aren't.

 

Looking at another 5 years of no playoffs!

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

On M&M IIRC, I heard that Saban's (?) team ran it and he and Bill are buddies. No NFL team ran it as far as they knew

[NoSaint]

On M&M IIRC, I heard that Saban's (?) team ran it and he and Bill are buddies. No NFL team ran it as far as they knew

we had a poster in here that said Chip had -- not sure if true.

 

as the one person that wrote in to m&m pointed out, for the ravens its a fundamentals of the game thing. if they KNOW formation rules for the offense, the defense shouldve been able to pick up the person quick (and thats ignoring that they said the ref clearly signaled and people claiming it was announced in the stadium), but i think that they probably rely on simply following the "norm" and ID'ing numbers if needed. im also guessing they didnt have any contingency built into the play call. so the players, even if they identified it fast didnt know what to do with it. teams got on autopilot assuming something like this wouldnt happen and started cutting corners in prep/design and BB nailed them.

Edited January 12, 2015 by NoSaint

[Maybe Someday]

http://static.nfl.com/static/content/public/image/rulebook/pdfs/8_Rule5_Players_Subs_Equip_GeneralRules.pdf

 

See especially: Section 3, Article 1. Section 2, Article 10 and 11.

 

There was a problem if the referee was not performing Sec. 3, Art. 1 and giving the defense the information and allowing the ball to be snapped. What the Patriots did was legal, but the officials did not officiate the game properly, IMO, giving them a clear competitive advantage.

 

If the Patriots try this again, I hope the officials are instructed properly.

 

Defensively, I think you line up in press and overwhelm the 4 blockers. They are basically playing 10 on 11 and relying on deception (and the officials to help with it) to get uncovered receivers.

 

Section 3 Changes in Position

REPORTING CHANGE OF POSITION

Article 1An offensive player wearing the number of an ineligible pass receiver (50-79 and 90-99) is permitted

to line up in the position of an eligible pass receiver (1-49 and 80-89), and an offensive player wearing the

number of an eligible pass receiver is permitted to line up in the position of an ineligible pass receiver,

provided that he immediately reports the change in his eligibility status to the Referee, who will inform the

defensive team.

 

The bolded portion of the above rule is the part of this situation that I question. How does the NFL define immediately? IMO, immediately would be prior to 7 players with eligible jersey numbers joining the huddle. It appeared to me that Vareen told the ref as he was running up to the line so by the time the announcement was made, the offense was ready to snap the ball and did so seconds later. That is the only aspect of this situation that I take issue with. I don’t feel the Pats* immediately informed the refs. Then again, I’ve really never paid that much attention to when a player with in ineligible number declares himself eligible to the refs. I always felt like it was before joining the huddle.

 

Belecheat has been doing stuff like this for years. He doesn’t appear to believe in the spirit of any rules, only the literal written definition of them and he will exploit that any chance he gets. Teams have been complaining about the Pats* to the league office for years over stuff like this. I do expect some specific clarification to be added to the rulebook this offseason regarding this.

[May Day 10]

To me, its deception, a bit cowardly, and altered the result of the game which was going to be won by the better team. Its like Bill Belichick is Dick Dastardly and Brady is Muttley the dog. Im sick of them. Sick of these stupid tricks that keep them going to AFC Championship games and Superbowls. I really want them and their ugly elvis-head uniforms to go away.

[Gugny]

Better does not equal cheating. The Patriots are just better than most. They have been better than most for well over a decade. They don't need to cheat.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Better does not equal cheating. The Patriots are just better than most. They have been better than most for well over a decade. They don't need to cheat.

and yet ....... they walk that line so well that when they do cross it they get the benefit of the doubt.

From what I heard ....

 

the argument here is that there wasn't a clear enough announcement of the alignment to allow the D to adjust properly.

 

What some may have thought was an Illegal formation was announced to the refs in under 5 seconds from the snap of the ball.

Edited January 12, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[Gugny]

and yet ....... they walk that line so well that when they do cross it they get the benefit of the doubt.

From what I heard ....

 

the argument here is that there wasn't a clear enough announcement of the alignment to allow the D to adjust properly.

 

What some may have thought was an Illegal formation was announced to the refs in under 5 seconds from the snap of the ball.

 

 

Like Brady said ... study the rule book. Patriots work harder, in my opinion, than any other team in football. They play smarter; they play more consistently; and they execute better than most teams.

 

I can only hope the Bills someday "get it," and work that hard at winning. It obviously works.

[plenzmd1]

 

 

Like Brady said ... study the rule book. Patriots work harder, in my opinion, than any other team in football. They play smarter; they play more consistently; and they execute better than most teams.

 

I can only hope the Bills someday "get it," and work that hard at winning. It obviously works.

Agree 100%..

[GG]

 

 

Like Brady said ... study the rule book. Patriots work harder, in my opinion, than any other team in football. They play smarter; they play more consistently; and they execute better than most teams.

 

I can only hope the Bills someday "get it," and work that hard at winning. It obviously works.

 

There's a big difference between working hard at winning and devoting full attention to solid execution, and doing that plus scouring every single loophole and trick to get a competitive edge. You deal with people like Belichick often in every day interactions. And usually you want to take a shower after talking to them. That's what the Patriots* are.

 

They're a hard working efficient sleaze machine. Not illegal. But also not on the up and up. Hence the eternal *

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

 

Like Brady said ... study the rule book.

And THAT is another reason why I very much dislike the Cheatriots. LOUSY winners as well as losers.

 

Was the Tuck rule in the books? Was the hitting a QB low rule in the books?

Edited January 12, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[NoSaint]

and yet ....... they walk that line so well that when they do cross it they get the benefit of the doubt.

 

From what I heard ....

 

the argument here is that there wasn't a clear enough announcement of the alignment to allow the D to adjust properly.

 

What some may have thought was an Illegal formation was announced to the refs in under 5 seconds from the snap of the ball.

by the very formation, vereen would be ineligible, and you could ignore him, if you were sharp. if he goes out its a penalty. almost like treating an offside as a free play, a team coached up to this situationally will know hes essentially a non player and you can go 11-10. leave him totally uncovered and rush an extra guy against a 4 man line.

 

thats the answer to the play, and the risk that the pats gambled and won taking.

[Mr. WEO]

To me, its deception, a bit cowardly, and altered the result of the game which was going to be won by the better team. Its like Bill Belichick is Dick Dastardly and Brady is Muttley the dog. Im sick of them. Sick of these stupid tricks that keep them going to AFC Championship games and Superbowls. I really want them and their ugly elvis-head uniforms to go away.

 

Wrong. It was NE's first possession of the second half and they were down by 2 TDs. The play in question was a 2nd and 6. What "altered the result" of that drive was the unsportsmanlike on Harbaugh who, having just been totally outcoached, chose to scream at the refs instead of calling a timeout. That gave them first and goal on the 5.

 

The Ravens coughed 2 14 point leads in this game.

and yet ....... they walk that line so well that when they do cross it they get the benefit of the doubt.

From what I heard ....

 

the argument here is that there wasn't a clear enough announcement of the alignment to allow the D to adjust properly.

 

What some may have thought was an Illegal formation was announced to the refs in under 5 seconds from the snap of the ball.

 

 

You heard wrong. See OJ's glove's post.

[l< j]

Better does not equal cheating. The Patriots are just better than most. They have been better than most for well over a decade. They don't need to cheat.

 

"Don't need to" does not equal "doesn't", as their history shows.

 

kj

[Gugny]

And THAT is another reason why I very much dislike the Cheatriots. LOUSY winners as well as losers.

 

Was the Tuck rule in the books? Was the hitting a QB low rule in the books?

 

You're talking about refereeing; not playing football.

[Jets Hater]

People are letting their hatred for the Patriots cloud their judgment. This was a genius move by Belichick. I hate him, but that was Brilliant and LEGAL. Wish our coaches would have think about it.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

when you can't win with straight up football, you use gimmicks.

yes I dislike the Putrids and can't wait for them to lose

[4merper4mer]

by the very formation, vereen would be ineligible, and you could ignore him, if you were sharp. if he goes out its a penalty. almost like treating an offside as a free play, a team coached up to this situationally will know hes essentially a non player and you can go 11-10. leave him totally uncovered and rush an extra guy against a 4 man line.

 

thats the answer to the play, and the risk that the pats gambled and won taking.

Except there was no way for the defense to know if he'd line up at the LOS or behind until he actually did it, about 1 second before the snap.

 

The fact is that every team could do this on every play and it would be unstoppable and the game of football would suck.

 

Next year something will close this loophole. What they did was to the letter of the law and not to the spirit of the law. Technically it is fine but they played to a weakness in the rules of the game, not a weakness of the opponent.

 

And I have as much or more respect for old people than anyone but let's face it, they should not be NFL officials. They did not understand what the Pats were doing until it was too late for BMore to defend it.

 

Prediction:

 

Their variation on this next week is that Vereen does the same thing at the snap but on the weak side, hustles back and take a lateral from Brady. He can then throw or run. Brady may be under center for this play.

[Gugny]

when you can't win with straight up football, you use gimmicks.

yes I dislike the Putrids and can't wait for them to lose

 

 

So would you call the Edelman TD pass play a gimmick?

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

Didn't see the game, but yes I would. Much like the WC (which it may have been) is a gimmick

if you have to resort to trickery...... then you must have been lacking

simply stated.

 

No matter who the team is

[Gugny]

Didn't see the game, but yes I would. Much like the WC (which it may have been) is a gimmick

if you have to resort to trickery...... then you must have been lacking

 

 

So when the Bills run the same exact play, which the did on a few occasions this year, does it piss you off?

[Deranged Rhino]

 

There's a big difference between working hard at winning and devoting full attention to solid execution, and doing that plus scouring every single loophole and trick to get a competitive edge. You deal with people like Belichick often in every day interactions. And usually you want to take a shower after talking to them. That's what the Patriots* are.

 

They're a hard working efficient sleaze machine. Not illegal. But also not on the up and up. Hence the eternal *

 

100%

 

No titles since Spy Gate. They're the beneficiaries of a weak division (over their run) and Bellicheat continually moving the goalposts of football ethics to suit his team. I can't wait to watch the Seahawks smoke the *pats in a few weeks... If Luck doesn't do the job beforehand.

 

&#33;@#&#036; the *pats. Their time is over.

[BillsFan-4-Ever]

 

 

So when the Bills run the same exact play, which the did on a few occasions this year, does it piss you off?

Did I say I was pissed off?

 

Did I not say ... "No matter who the team is"?

Edited January 12, 2015 by BillsFan-4-Ever

[DC Bills Fan]

Didn't see the game, but yes I would. Much like the WC (which it may have been) is a gimmick

if you have to resort to trickery...... then you must have been lacking

simply stated.

 

No matter who the team is

 

I guess since you didn't see the game, you must really know what you're taking about.

 

It was genius coaching, plain and simple. The Pats have run that quick pass to the WR hundreds of times ... Edelman made it look like he was going to run, pulled up, and launched a strike. That's not trickery -- that's just great coaching.

 

Come on, Bills Fans, this is ridiculous. The Bills should learn something from the Pats here. I'm a huge Bills fan -- but Harrison knocks down one ball, and Welker halls in another pass, Brady would be 5-0 in Superbowls. The videotaping had nothing to do with their success. Of course, if you want to believe that it did to make you feel better about the Bills, then go right ahead.