Mij yllek Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 http://www.cbssports.com/nfl/eye-on-football/24953400/harbaugh-says-ne-ran-illegal-plays-tom-brady-says-study-the-rulebook Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Big Turk Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Can't believe more coaches have not used this---it would create serious havoc on defense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
YoloinOhio Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Get ready for the copy cats  Harbaugh was pissed. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
jimmy10 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) So they pulled a Billy Martin. Wait until the right day and the right situation to take advantage of an obscure interpretation of the rules and have George Brett/John Harbaugh storm onto the field in anger. I doubt it works again. Edited January 11, 2015 by jimmy10 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I know it's usually not allowed here but I gotta say I love it. Brady's comment: read the rulebook! This is a way to avoid the annoying rule that defenses get to sub just because an offense has subbed. It was fun to watch Harbaugh (damn, why didn't I think of this first?) meltdown over being caught with his khakis down. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
boyst Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It will work again because how do you cover that many guys? Â The Patriots did it very smartly and I have wondered why others have not done it in the past. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Utah John Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It's not cheating, but the officials should have realized that it gave the Pats an unfair advantage. Running a play out of that unusual formation is legal, no question, but having the referee simply announce that the RB lined up outside the main linemen group was ineligible just before the ball is snapped, is not sufficient notice to the defense to allow them to understand whom to cover. The whole point of having eligible and ineligible receivers is so that everyone understands who is eligible and who isn't. Â So the FIRST time this happened, the Ravens were at an unfair disadvantage. Any times after that, these professional athletes and their professional coaches should have had some kind of plan. Even if they had to draw it up on paper on the sidelines, they should have been able to pull something together to counter the formation. For starters, with one of the ineligible linemen deployed off the main group, that left four actual blockers. Blitz away and see what happens. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
gobillsinytown Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 If Don Shula thinks they cheat, I guess it's true(?) Â "Speaking with Dave Hyde of the Sun-Sentinel about other great coaches, is asked about Belichick and doesn't hold back with his response. "Beli-cheat?" Shula says." Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bigdogtim Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It's not the fact that they did this that annoys me so very much but rather the smugness. They knew they were cheating at least the first time and we're proud of it. Winning because you Are the better team is honorable. Winning like they did smacks so much of desperation it is pathetic. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
The Frankish Reich Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It's not cheating, but the officials should have realized that it gave the Pats an unfair advantage. Running a play out of that unusual formation is legal, no question, but having the referee simply announce that the RB lined up outside the main linemen group was ineligible just before the ball is snapped, is not sufficient notice to the defense to allow them to understand whom to cover. The whole point of having eligible and ineligible receivers is so that everyone understands who is eligible and who isn't. Â So the FIRST time this happened, the Ravens were at an unfair disadvantage. Any times after that, these professional athletes and their professional coaches should have had some kind of plan. Even if they had to draw it up on paper on the sidelines, they should have been able to pull something together to counter the formation. For starters, with one of the ineligible linemen deployed off the main group, that left four actual blockers. Blitz away and see what happens. Try that next week and I'm guessing Von Miller is immediately shifted to be right over the ineligible receiver. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
bills_fan_in_raleigh Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 tuck rule now this stuff. Cheaters always cheat Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
May Day 10 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Smoke and mirrors. They continue to do it. Baltimore was so much better Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 I don't know the rule well enough to say whether it was legal, but I think the experts are going to conclude that it was at best a gray area. Belichick's post-game quote was telling: "We used six eligible receivers, but only five were eligible." Oh, ok. In other words, it's not cheating, but it's not not cheating. Â I think the refs were as unprepared as the Ravens and the Pats took advantage of that. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan130 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 its not cheating, its smart. as much as I hate to say it but brady is right they did nothing wrong. they exploited a loophole In the rules Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Its crap and shouldnt be allowed. Pure pre-snap trickery. Adds nothing to the game and detracts from what fans really want to see: players playing the game on the field. Not standing around looking confused. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Dirtbag Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 its not cheating, its smart. as much as I hate to say it but brady is right they did nothing wrong. they exploited a loophole In the rules agreed. i wish our coaches were that smart. hopefully they are now. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 its not cheating, its smart. as much as I hate to say it but brady is right they did nothing wrong. they exploited a loophole In the rulesHave you analyzed the rule? Are you sure that what they did was consistent with the rule? If so, please explain. I am not saying you are wrong, but I have yet to read a convincing explanation that it was legal. See Belichick quote above. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
K8prisoner Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 It is bush league at best and an admission that ravens are a better team .. It took a fifteen yard penalty for harbaugh to at least give his d a fair chance .. Guarantee this will result in a rule change. But it go the taper of closed practices a chance to lose next week .. We should just do it back to him . And steal his signals . Tape his walk throughs and .. Nah .. Epuld rather lose straight up than steal it w cheap crsp Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsBytheBay Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 This again proves to me that they are Win at all cost, not ultra competitive. Whatever. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 So they were creative and it was hard to react to on the fly because the defense wasn't prepared? Sounds like when the Dolphins beat them with the wildcat. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Pneumonic Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 NFL says substitutions were legal.  http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12150444/2014-15-nfl-playoffs-league-says-new-england-patriots-substitutions-vs-baltimore-ravens-legal  I wonder if Fox or Pagano will read the rulebook prior to next week's game? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Is harbaughs argument simply that the pats weren't giving them enough time to figure out the plays pre-snap, not that they were truly illegal? Â If so, it seems that he's the one being silly, not the pats Edited January 11, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 So they were creative and it was hard to react to on the fly because the defense wasn't prepared? Sounds like when the Dolphins beat them with the wildcat. Â The only problem I have with it is did they have time to notify the defense. Usually they announce it when a tackle reports eligible, surely they should notify the defense when a receiver reports ineligible. Flaw in the system and they found it. Kudos to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Daddy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Likely the competition committee will do something about this in the off season. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
truth on hold Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Every time I want to respect this team they remind me not to. Complete abuse of the rules and just shows what theyre all about. Another tarnished season that ends with an "*" Edited January 11, 2015 by JTSP Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited)  The only problem I have with it is did they have time to notify the defense. Usually they announce it when a tackle reports eligible, surely they should notify the defense when a receiver reports ineligible. Flaw in the system and they found it. Kudos to them. But the ref was handling it the same as a tackle eligible, no? Just the pats were hurrying up and the ineligible guy wasn't always in the same spot so it was hard for the safeties/linebackers to sort out responsibility in a hurry up  Essentially they risked 4 blockers in exchange for confusion and the Ravens simply never were coached how to handle it Edited January 11, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 So they were creative and it was hard to react to on the fly because the defense wasn't prepared? Sounds like when the Dolphins beat them with the wildcat.Except that the wildcat was indisputably legal. Despite the NFL's pronouncement, I think the jury is still out in this. I think it will boil down to whether you consider exploiting a gray area to be "cheating". Many people do. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Except that the wildcat was indisputably legal. Despite the NFL's pronouncement, I think the jury is still out in this. I think it will boil down to whether you consider exploiting a gray area to be "cheating". Many people do. What is illegal about it, besides no one having done it yet? The article left out the rule but it seems the pats looked at it, the refs agreed (I'm sure they told the refs pre-game too) and even harbaugh seems to be arguing that it wasn't very nice, not that the formation was illegal. Â If the roles were swapped and the Ravens pulled it I suspect the board would be celebrating and calling the pats whinersx Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Wayne Cubed Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 But the ref was handling it the same as a tackle eligible, no? Just the pats were hurrying up and the ineligible guy wasn't always in the same spot so it was hard for the safeties/linebackers to sort out responsibility in a hurry up   Essentially they risked 4 blockers in exchange for confusion and the Ravens simply never were coached how to handle it   The hurry up helped with the confusion, if you watch the head Referee he is talking with Pats* RB and I don't think he notifies the defense. I don't know if they have to the only reason I say they would have to is because they notify the defense when a tackled is eligible. You can hear it over the PA.  Like I said, kudos to them. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) Well they saved it until they had to use it.. Â I would bet they wanted to save it for Denver or even the SB Â Cat is out of the bag now Edited January 11, 2015 by TheFunPolice Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 NFL says substitutions were legal.  http://espn.go.com/nfl/playoffs/2014/story/_/id/12150444/2014-15-nfl-playoffs-league-says-new-england-patriots-substitutions-vs-baltimore-ravens-legal  I wonder if Fox or Pagano will read the rulebook prior to next week's game?   "Legal," yes. In that it was within the rules.  But it was also a use of the rules in a manner in which they weren't intended to be used. It wasn't "playing the game" as much as it was "gaming the system." And that's cheating. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Â Â "Legal," yes. In that it was within the rules. Â But it was also a use of the rules in a manner in which they weren't intended to be used. It wasn't "playing the game" as much as it was "gaming the system." And that's cheating. I think that's why I hate that team. Â It's always some technicality that they benefit from. Â Guaranteed that was meant for Denver in case Manning mans up in Foxborough Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
G-Daddy Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Â Â "Legal," yes. In that it was within the rules. Â But it was also a use of the rules in a manner in which they weren't intended to be used. It wasn't "playing the game" as much as it was "gaming the system." And that's cheating. Everybody games the system as often as they can......businessmen, politicians and sports teams. Law of unintended consequences when implementing a rule/law. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
mannc Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 What is illegal about it, besides no one having done it yet? The article left out the rule but it seems the pats looked at it, the refs agreed (I'm sure they told the refs pre-game too) and even harbaugh seems to be arguing that it wasn't very nice, not that the formation was illegal. Â If the roles were swapped and the Ravens pulled it I suspect the board would be celebrating and calling the pats whinersx i will be honest: I have not carefully studied the rule and analyzed whether what they did violated it or was merely contrary to its spirit. I think the rule is confusing to begin with. It seems to me that the Pats were operating in a gray area and that the refs themselves were confused and let them get away with it. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 That was their ace in the hole and they had to play it a lot earlier than they wanted to Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numark3 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Oh please, if the bills did this you all would be talking about how smart it was. It wasn't cheating in any sense of the word Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
NoSaint Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 (edited) i will be honest: I have not carefully studied the rule and analyzed whether what they did violated it or was merely contrary to its spirit. I think the rule is confusing to begin with. It seems to me that the Pats were operating in a gray area and that the refs themselves were confused and let them get away with it.I just read through them and it seems pretty basic that its legal but coaches didn't want to risk a 4 man line. The ineligible player checks in, the ref notifies a defensive captain and you play ball. That the Ravens werent prepped for it seems to be the only issue. The first fake fg, first flea flicker, first wildcat were all the same thing, it seems like Edited January 11, 2015 by NoSaint Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
DC Tom Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Oh please, if the bills did this you all would be talking about how smart it was. Â Oh, of course. But it was still cheating. I just read through them and it seems pretty basic that its legal but coaches didn't want to risk a 4 man line. The ineligible player checks in, the ref notifies a defensive captain and you play ball. That the Ravens werent prepped for it seems to be the only issue. Â Not only that, but you'd think any team posed with a bizarre formation that !@#$s up their coverage like that would call a time out. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Numark3 Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Â Oh, of course. But it was still cheating. if you think following the rules to deceive an opponent is cheating, then yes. So was that Amendola pass though. A WR throwing a ball? Cheating. Rules were not intended to have WRs throw the ball. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheFunPolice Posted January 11, 2015 Share Posted January 11, 2015 Von Miller will make them pay if they try it again Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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