bobobonators Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Orton is a stop gap and nothing more. He gives us the best chance to win over any other QB on this team though. Exactly. Last time i checked mediocre is better than bad, which is what EJ was. Whats the alternative right now? Nothing. This type of post is reminiscent of the Gailey years. After a week where the opposing qb throws for 361yds and 4TD, heres a thread about our QB not being good enough. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It is far better to know this season than it is to wait 1 or 2 more to know the reality of it. this applies to you too WEO. remind me ... what was the argument you and Nee I mean Doc had years back WRT Matt Leinart is it really achievement to reach a WC only to fail again next season? Leinart was a bust. Wooo.....that felt good! Give it a try. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstealer Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 this team is still plagued with below average QB play. Orton Passer Rating: 20th (EJ 28th) Orton Total QBR: 31st (EJ 33rd) Orton is playing better than EJ, but that ain't saying much. Orton better take advantage of the upcoming so called easier games. Who cares, Orton is still the best option right now. This offense is moving better with Orton and you don't see the frustration in the receivers like you did when EJ was in. This team's ok. Sucks today--Orton in mediocre--men are mediocre. This happens in NFL every week. I like this teams chances of bouncing back hard--playing great ball and getting a chance at the division title week 16. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Is there a point to this thread? As if anyone thought Orton was great? ~20th best QB or thereabouts is what we realistically hoped for. I think you drastically underestimate how much better that is than the 40th or so best QB in the league. KC underwent a very similar upgrade last year and it's done wonders for them (yes Crennell to Reid helps too). Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RuntheDamnBall Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 This team's ok. Sucks today--Orton in mediocre--men are mediocre. Is this some kind of code? Is there a point to this thread? As if anyone thought Orton was great? For the record, there were threads suggesting he be signed to an extension. I think Orton is what he is. He is a sharper Fitz with less mobility. That's probably what they needed last season with EJ understudying, and perhaps at the start of this one, too. I still would like to see a more mobile QB on this team, especially given the line's deficiencies. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I dont understand how any of these QB's can effectively function when we CANT RUN THE FOOTBALL Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Is there a point to this thread? As if anyone thought Orton was great? ~20th best QB or thereabouts is what we realistically hoped for. I think you drastically underestimate how much better that is than the 40th or so best QB in the league. KC underwent a very similar upgrade last year and it's done wonders for them (yes Crennell to Reid helps too). Rivers,Rodgers,Manning,and Luck have been ridiculous Romo starting slow but is picking up his play but Bryant has been otherworldly so far Outside of that the rest of the qb play in the league has been up and down . Did anyone see Matt Ryan get clowned by the bears defense yesterday ? Eli was on fire the past few weeks and got shutout by the eagles . the majority of league is mediocre going by the standards set around here Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
markgbe Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) this team is still plagued with below average QB play. Orton Passer Rating: 20th (EJ 28th) Orton Total QBR: 31st (EJ 33rd) Orton is playing better than EJ, but that ain't saying much. Orton better take advantage of the upcoming so called easier games. All QBs except Rivers, Brady, Manning, Luck, Rodgers are mediocre currently.... This thread is useless. Edited October 13, 2014 by markgbe Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mark Vader Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Did anyone say that Orton was anything but mediocre? Why is this a surprise? He'll win us some games, he'll lose us some games. Well put. We knew what we were getting with Orton. He will make some good plays and make some bone headed plays. Orton's first pass attempt to Watkins was a beauty, and because of Orton, Scott Chandler had one of his more effective games in a long time. Then there was the interception, which was a poor decision, and then the sack where Orton just stood there. Orton is doing pretty good, considering he's only played 2 games here. Let's just not fool ourselves into thinking that he is an elite QB. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBear Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I guess I'm going against the grain, but I was a huge skeptic when it came to Orton and he's looked pretty darn good to me through two weeks. The two picks were bad but he's been asked/forced to make some pretty ridiculous throws into tight windows. I feel like we can win with him. Even in the playoffs. Clean up the penalties and stick to your assignments on defense yesterday and we might be talking about an exciting win. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Is there a point to this thread? As if anyone thought Orton was great? ~20th best QB or thereabouts is what we realistically hoped for. I think you drastically underestimate how much better that is than the 40th or so best QB in the league. KC underwent a very similar upgrade last year and it's done wonders for them (yes Crennell to Reid helps too). KC has lost 9 of their last 13 games... Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) KC has lost 9 of their last 13 games... Yay for arbitrary endpoints. How many of those were against Denver - 3? They also didn't try @San Diego week 17. Edited October 13, 2014 by BuffOrange Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Orton is already not better than EJ. Yes he has thrown for more yard, but the result is the same. Bad turnovers, missed receivers and losses. EJ is 2-2. Orton is 1-1. What are we getting from Orton that EJ hasn't done? Orton is a veteran who has proved over his career to be mediocre. EJ has played 14 games. Play him and develop him. The rest of the team sucks anyway and is not going anywhere. I'd rather lose with a kid than with a 31 yr old, fat JP Losman look-alike. It's not baseball. QBs shouldn't be ascribed win-loss records. Orton in 2 games 54-87 66.7 comp % 607 total yards 304 ypg 7.49 ypa 3 tds 2 ints 90.9 qb rating and this was off the street basically The problem is not that Orton is mediocre its that some of you simply refuse to admit that some parts of our team are simply not as good as we thought they were Yep. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Thunderstealer Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Is this some kind of code? No. Sometimes people don't perform their best when needed. A great example was yesterday's game at the Ralph. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Points per game in Orton starts: 19.5. Turnovers from the qb position: 1.5 Points per game in EJ starts: 19.75 Turnovers from the qb position: .75 Where's the upgrade? But at least Orton is young and can improve. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Points per game in Orton starts: 19.5. Turnovers from the qb position: 1.5 Points per game in EJ starts: 19.75 Turnovers from the qb position: .75 Where's the upgrade? But at least Orton is young and can improve. I particularly liked how EJ willed Corey Graham to dominate the Bears & get three takeaways and CJ to run the kick back and blocking that punt vs Miami. Some stuff you just can't teach. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
JC2002 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Points per game in Orton starts: 19.5. Turnovers from the qb position: 1.5 Points per game in EJ starts: 19.75 Turnovers from the qb position: .75 Where's the upgrade? But at least Orton is young and can improve. lol the upgrade is across the board because now the improved qb play is exposing other areas that need improvement. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I particularly liked how EJ willed Corey Graham to dominate the Bears & get three takeaways and CJ to run the kick back and blocking that punt vs Miami. Some stuff you just can't teach. Just like Orton willed Detroit kicker to miss 3 fgs and Watkins to make circus catches when he was dropping easy ones the week before. But omg! Orton had 300 yards!!! We are a decent kicker away from being 0-2 with him under center. I love Orton as a backup but he is what he is. And there hasn't been enough of an improvement to justify the switch. Marrone's seat is getting very warm. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
John from Riverside Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Just like Orton willed Detroit kicker to miss 3 fgs and Watkins to make circus catches when he was dropping easy ones the week before. But omg! Orton had 300 yards!!! We are a decent kicker away from being 0-2 with him under center. I love Orton as a backup but he is what he is. And there hasn't been enough of an improvement to justify the switch. Marrone's seat is getting very warm. I personally can see a difference in offensive play between Orton and Manuel....the problem is there are too many OTHER positions not doing their job in order for Orton (who is not a franchise signal caller....only a middle of the field starting qB) to do his job. For instance..... - Why run on first down when its just a wasted down putting them in 2nd and long situation?.....why not let Orton pass the ball? - Running CJ up into the gut of the defense is NOT WORKING......it gets either 1 yard or negative yards.......running Boobie actually makes more sense Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BuffOrange Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Just like Orton willed Detroit kicker to miss 3 fgs and Watkins to make circus catches when he was dropping easy ones the week before. But omg! Orton had 300 yards!!! We are a decent kicker away from being 0-2 with him under center. I love Orton as a backup but he is what he is. And there hasn't been enough of an improvement to justify the switch. Marrone's seat is getting very warm. Stop moving goalposts. You're the one who brought up PPG and PPG exclusively. You obviously did that for a reason - because there is no other leg to stand on for arguing their performances have been comparable. So when the PPG theory gets ripped to shreds, we move on to W/L and hypothetical W/L not accounting for the quality of defense or opponent. Weak sauce even for an EJ apologist. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
hondo in seattle Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Seems pretty obvious to me... Orton gives you more yardage but with that are gonna be some serious ball security issues. EJ for the most part is uber-conservative and therefore doesn't turn it over as much (although the pick-6 to Watt on a screen pass effectively benched him here). There's no way EJ can accurately throw some of those seam passes down the middle perfectly to Chandler, or the drop in the bucket pass to Woods on 4th down...or even the TD pass to Hogan. What will be interesting is if EJ ever gets back in there. He claims he will "go for it" and not hold back anymore. Even so, I don't think EJ is accurate enough to ever be considered a good QB. Bottom line- Orton can rack up some yardage and TDs but there's gonna games where he throws 2-3 picks and/or fumbles. I'd still rather have Orton as the QB I hope EJ learns and gets better. But for now, I agree with this. Orton is throwing for 300 yards a game. You can talk about QBR and passer efficiency rating but sometimes you just need production. Though production w/o turnovers would be much better! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C.Biscuit97 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I hope EJ learns and gets better. But for now, I agree with this. Orton is throwing for 300 yards a game. You can talk about QBR and passer efficiency rating but sometimes you just need production. Though production w/o turnovers would be much better! People love 300 yards. I love points. The knock on Orton is he turns the ball over and doesn't put enough points on the board. That's exactly what we've seen the last 2 weeks. Stop moving goalposts. You're the one who brought up PPG and PPG exclusively. You obviously did that for a reason - because there is no other leg to stand on for arguing their performances have been comparable. So when the PPG theory gets ripped to shreds, we move on to W/L and hypothetical W/L not accounting for the quality of defense or opponent. Weak sauce even for an EJ apologist. Whatever. You owned me. Orton is such an upgrade, we are averaging less points. The fact that it is even close is a problem. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RussellDopeland Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Orton is mediocre. Marrone is mediocre. Lee Smith, Chris Hogan, and Stephon Gilmore are mediocre. Hackett is not even talented enough to be mediocre. Eric Pears wishes he was good enough to be considered mediocre. The reoccurring theme here is one of mediocrity. Yet this is talent-laden roster- tons of talent at the offensive skill positions; outstanding defensive line, etc.. This team is being held back by the aforementioned mediocrities. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
RyanC883 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 he's always been mediocre...it's just that he's so much better than Manuel...kind of sad yep. no one thought he was above average. But his averageness is hindered by a HS offensive play calling by "can't" Hackett and Moron. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) The QB played well enough yesterday for the team to win. The D did not stop NE at all in the second half. Orton is not Peyton Manning, but he is still head and shoulders above EJ at this point. No way EJ makes that TD throw to Hogan or the two point conversion throw to Woods. It wasn't his fault the Bills lost yesterday, it was the D. The offense played well enough to overcome the two Orton turnovers in the first half. If the D could have stopped NE a couple more times in the second half, it would have been a different game. Come back and talk to me in two weeks when we are 5-3 and Orton is 3-1. He is so much better than EJ it isn't even funny. No way EJ makes that TD throw to Hogan yesterday or the two point conversion to Woods. Those are throws EJ just isn't capable of making. Orton kept us in the game, it was the D that failed us yesterday. I hate absurd comments like this. Can't make the throw? Then explain to me why EJ HAS made those throws. Seriously, these are the dumbest things said in threads and the shout box every week. EJ has made every single throw that Orton has, so stop with these comments. EJ has made some beautiful throws, and several of our WRs dropped ones that were right on the money. Neither QB is playing good enough, that's a given. But these mythological claims are absurd. Love him or hate him, doesn't matter. Factually you are 100% incorrect. At the end of the day, I want to win and don't care which QB is in there to do it. But if Orton doesn't play better, then EJ needs to finish the season to see if he can further develop considering he only has 14 games. And in those 14 games, his stats, record, and performance is better than many top QBs first 14 games. So let's not over exaggerate his poor play. In 14 games he also has 3 comeback 4th qtr wins. He had upside where Orton has none. So if this is all we get from Orton, then we need to ride and die with EJ and hope the light bulb comes on and find a new QB next year if it doesn't. First and foremost FIRE HACKETT Edited October 13, 2014 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
C-Man Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Orton is the best QB I have seen in awhile for the Bills. I felt we really had a passing game yesterday. Mistakes? Yes, taking the sack, the pick, etc. I get those. He is knocking off the rust. The game yesterday? We were out coached. We have the talent on this roster. Our D got worn down in the first half. That being said, we are what our record states. I want to see six more wins. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
A Dog Named Kelso Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 People love 300 yards. I love points. The knock on Orton is he turns the ball over and doesn't put enough points on the board. That's exactly what we've seen the last 2 weeks. Whatever. You owned me. Orton is such an upgrade, we are averaging less points. The fact that it is even close is a problem. If you are going to compare PPG ... you have to look at Offensive points scored per game not team PPG. Giving credit to EJ for points scored by the special teams and defense is silly. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Green Lightning Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) Orton is mediocre. Marrone is mediocre. Lee Smith, Chris Hogan, and Stephon Gilmore are mediocre. Hackett is not even talented enough to be mediocre. Eric Pears wishes he was good enough to be considered mediocre. The reoccurring theme here is one of mediocrity. Yet this is talent-laden roster- tons of talent at the offensive skill positions; outstanding defensive line, etc.. This team is being held back by the aforementioned mediocrities. That's crap. Brady is surrounded by mediocre talent save for Gronk - and the no names produced. Yes it's Brady, but moreso an offensive scheme that targets a D's weakness with variety, motion and different looks. We bunch up the line and send CJ in the middle of 10, 300-pounders and wonder why we're 3 and out. The mediocrity we have is Hackett. He is clueless, over his head and too stupid to know it. If Morrone doesn't pull play calling from him then he is just as stupid. Edited October 13, 2014 by Green Lightning Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Orton is the best QB I have seen in awhile for the Bills. I felt we really had a passing game yesterday. Mistakes? Yes, taking the sack, the pick, etc. I get those. He is knocking off the rust. The game yesterday? We were out coached. We have the talent on this roster. Our D got worn down in the first half. That being said, we are what our record states. I want to see six more wins. I think you're going to see seven more. (Minn, NYJ, KC, Miami, NYJ -- and they get two more between Cle, *pats, Raiders, and Packers) Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Alphadawg7 Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) And one last thing...Orton has not played mediocre. That would imply he was at least middle of the pack. He is near the bottom of the NFL in his two starts. Detroit win was not because of him, in fact, we were down because of him. We won because Detroit can't kick a FG. He only got to 300 yards because Detroit can't kick a FG. I applaud him for making a play at the end to steal a game we should have lost, but lets not pretend he is playing mediocre. His play yesterday was below average, just like Detroit. This is Fitz or Trent all over again. He will make a good throw or two and people forget the 10 bad throws/sacks/turnovers he had just before them. On one drive he will look like a solid starter, then the next 3 stink the joint up. The only thing I know is that Orton is not our answer. And for those in here claiming that no one ever said he was more than mediocre needs to take a trip down the other pages of TSW and read the countless posts and threads claiming him to be a pretty good QB or better. Like the thread after the Detroit game asking why he can't be the long term answer. Or the shout box where people claim he is better than what he has been. Or even posts in this thread where people are saying he's the best QB we have had in years when he is not even better than Fitzcraptrick to this point. Our QB situation sucks...doesnt matter if you want Orton or EJ. The difference is I still think EJ can improve, where as Orton is not someone I see being much better than this. Big shock too considering his career stats were very close to EJs career stats. PS: I could care less who the QB is, I just want to win. And if Orton can be that guy, then great. If not, then play EJ and see if he can grow and develop into a guy who can get us wins in the future. Edited October 13, 2014 by Alphadawg7 Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 EJ would not have taken the risks (at this point in his career) to make some of the later throws to bring the game to one score in the 4th. KO forced a 4th down completion. You take the bad and the good. Also, I would rather have an int in the 1st than in the 4th. 7 points in the hole against the PUTZ is NEVER a good thing. The Bills survived the Lions because of their JAG @ QB Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
dave mcbride Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 And one last thing...Orton has not played mediocre. That would imply he was at least middle of the pack. He is near the bottom of the NFL in his two starts. Detroit win was not because of him, in fact, we were down because of him. We won because Detroit can't kick a FG. He only got to 300 yards because Detroit can't kick a FG. I applaud him for making a play at the end to steal a game we should have lost, but lets not pretend he is playing mediocre. His play yesterday was below average, just like Detroit. This is Fitz or Trent all over again. He will make a good throw or two and people forget the 10 bad throws/sacks/turnovers he had just before them. On one drive he will look like a solid starter, then the next 3 stink the joint up. The only thing I know is that Orton is not our answer. And for those in here claiming that no one ever said he was more than mediocre needs to take a trip down the other pages of TSW and read the countless posts and threads claiming him to be a pretty good QB or better. Like the thread after the Detroit game asking why he can't be the long term answer. Or the shout box where people claim he is better than what he has been. Or even posts in this thread where people are saying he's the best QB we have had in years when he is not even better than Fitzcraptrick to this point. Our QB situation sucks...doesnt matter if you want Orton or EJ. The difference is I still think EJ can improve, where as Orton is not someone I see being much better than this. Big shock too considering his career stats were very close to EJs career stats. PS: I could care less who the QB is, I just want to win. And if Orton can be that guy, then great. If not, then play EJ and see if he can grow and develop into a guy who can get us wins in the future. A rating of 90.1 and a ypa is *at least* mediocre. No one here is saying he's the answer; he's clearly not. He's just better than the guy before him, who unfortunately has the worst trait possible for an NFL QB - congenital inaccuracy on throws that go at least 10 yards beyond the LOS. I hope that Manuel can improve on that front, but since he hasn't been able to going back to college, I'm not expecting any miracles. From what I've read, QBs who start out as inaccurate stay inaccurate. It's the main skill that scouts look for, and rightly so. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
CardinalScotts Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 qbr ? watch the game you have to have someone break it down in their own theory on what matters? pathetic Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
BillsFan-4-Ever Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 (edited) That's what you're going to use a measuring point? Why not? People blasted EJ for his pick 6 against the Texans (which was repeated by Watt 2 or 3 times since) Points per game in Orton starts: 19.5. * Total team points Turnovers from the qb position: 1.5 Points per game in EJ starts: 19.75 * Total team points Turnovers from the qb position: .75 Where's the upgrade? But at least Orton is young and can improve. :worthy: on the turnovers Total team points - does that mean EJ motivated the Defense to play lights out over KO? Edited October 13, 2014 by BillsFan-4-Ever Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 In other news, the sky is up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 In other news, the sky is up. WHAT?! I thought it was BLUE! For years I've been lied to! AHHHHHH! Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Captain Caveman Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 WHAT?! I thought it was BLUE! For years I've been lied to! AHHHHHH! It can be two things. Sometimes it's blue, but it's always up. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Mr. WEO Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 I hate absurd comments like this. Can't make the throw? Then explain to me why EJ HAS made those throws. Seriously, these are the dumbest things said in threads and the shout box every week. EJ has made every single throw that Orton has, so stop with these comments. EJ has made some beautiful throws, and several of our WRs dropped ones that were right on the money. Neither QB is playing good enough, that's a given. But these mythological claims are absurd. Love him or hate him, doesn't matter. Factually you are 100% incorrect. At the end of the day, I want to win and don't care which QB is in there to do it. But if Orton doesn't play better, then EJ needs to finish the season to see if he can further develop considering he only has 14 games. And in those 14 games, his stats, record, and performance is better than many top QBs first 14 games. So let's not over exaggerate his poor play. In 14 games he also has 3 comeback 4th qtr wins. He had upside where Orton has none. So if this is all we get from Orton, then we need to ride and die with EJ and hope the light bulb comes on and find a new QB next year if it doesn't. First and foremost FIRE HACKETT Factually, this statement is not believable. Also, can we discuss EJ's "beautiful throws" in the Palmer beautiful footwork thread? Sort of merge the 2? Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
Deranged Rhino Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 It can be two things. Sometimes it's blue, but it's always up. You just cracked a whole lot of knowledge on me. Consider my mind blown. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
TheBrownBear Posted October 13, 2014 Share Posted October 13, 2014 Points per game in Orton starts: 19.5. Turnovers from the qb position: 1.5 Points per game in EJ starts: 19.75 Turnovers from the qb position: .75 Where's the upgrade? But at least Orton is young and can improve. Take out Spiller's return TD and you've got 18 ppg for Manuel. Also consider how many short fields the defense gave Manuel to work with versus what we've seen since Orton has taken over. For instance, 4 of our scoring drives against Miami came from when we started at approximately midfield or better. Against Chicago we had 3 scoring drives from midfield or better, including a 7 yard touchdown "drive." Compare that with Orton who has never once yet started a drive in opponent's territory. And has an average drive start of our own 24 yard line through 2 games. Link to comment Share on other sites More sharing options...
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