Watkins trade revisited

[Kelly the Dog]

The only question I have to that is if a receiver is worth that. For as great as Calvin Johnson is, he's been to playoffs once. But I love Watkins talent.

I think that it has been proven that it doesn't matter who your star player or players are, they can be at almost any position. Surely it helps the most if they are at the most important positions, like QB and pass rusher. But the Steelers won the Super Bowl with their star player being a safety, and their other star a LB. The stars of the Ravens were a LB and a safety. They had good quarterbacking, and I would say that Big Ben is a franchise QB, but I wouldn't consider him a star player. That designation is for the truly elite.

Edited October 6, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[Alaska Darin]

Darin, these contracts are not so expensive now with the new CBA.

Watkins got about $20,000,000 over 4 years. That's the neighborhood I'm talking about. There are plenty of veteran players you can find for that money who are pretty much guaranteed to perform or the money can be spent keeping your own free agents (novel concept).

[Kelly the Dog]

Watkins got about $20,000,000 over 4 years. That's the neighborhood I'm talking about. There are plenty of veteran players you can find for that money who are pretty much guaranteed to perform or the money can be spent keeping your own free agents (novel concept).

True. And I doubt we will have any trouble paying for free agents that we want under El Petulante. But the trade for Watkins, up to #4, was partly to ensure that the pick given up in 2015 was around 20. Which is quite possible to happen and isn't nearly that amount of money.

 

But yes, we better spend several million more on a quality FA to replace that missing #1 pick. I see no reason why we won't.

[1B4IDie]

The real question - CAN Sammy ever live up to the expectations that come for a player who cost you two first round picks, (hopefully only one of those a high one). Seriously - if he were taken by the Browns there and was doing for them what he is doing for the Bills, it would be high fives and ass slapping all around. Because of the price we paid - he needs to be a monster to meet the expectations.

 

Look - I don't like the trade as I think the only position in the NFL you move up for in RD 1 (and give up a future RD1), is a QB as it is the most important, but he looks to be as good as advertised.

His play won 2/5 games for the Bills over a replacement such as Ebron or Benjamin.

Therefore it's already proven that the extra 1st wasn't too much.

Everything else in his career is gravy.

[Alaska Darin]

True. And I doubt we will have any trouble paying for free agents that we want under El Petulante. But the trade for Watkins, up to #4, was partly to ensure that the pick given up in 2015 was around 20. Which is quite possible to happen and isn't nearly that amount of money.

 

But yes, we better spend several million more on a quality FA to replace that missing #1 pick. I see no reason why we won't.

I'd say around pick 20 we're looking at about $9M over 4 years. Not crazy money but maybe that's the difference in keeping a guy like Hughes.

[Kelly the Dog]

I'd say around pick 20 we're looking at about $9M over 4 years. Not crazy money but maybe that's the difference in keeping a guy like Hughes.

Yep. That's a good point. We're entering a whole new galaxy as of Wednesday when Pegula takes over. Hughes is a tough one but I would do it unless the money he can get elsewhere is insane.

[C-Man]

I need to see a handful of plays like we saw yesterday. He needs to prove to his team mates that he was worth the pick. If the rest of the team believes in him, they will rise to his level.

[JPS]

Meh. I voted no. I'd rather trade down, grab WR or OG and keep building the team. He has to go a long way to convince me otherwise.

[Fan in Alaska]

It is not just a matter of what he does for our team, but it is a matter of what he won't be doing to us by

being on another team. Can you imagine Sammy being on another AFC East team, running wild in our

secondary with his super-glue hands for the next 5-10 years?

[PastaJoe]

I'd rather have a great QB and an average WR, than an average QB and a great WR. The Bills will have an average QB for at least this year and next.

[mead107]

Play maker. Must have.

[RyanC883]

A star player is two three times as good as a very good player IMO. You can't win without stars. It was worth it then and it's worth it now regardless of the QB. He won the game for us yesterday with a freak play because he's a freak elite player.

 

this. you need stars. average players help you go 9-7 or 7-9 forever. We need more star/freak players. Also, it's Watkins 5th game in the NFL. What is he going to be like after a full season!

 

I'd rather have a great QB and an average WR, than an average QB and a great WR. The Bills will have an average QB for at least this year and next.

 

I think most would, but there is no way the Bills could guarantee themselves a great QB by staying put. They could and did guarantee themselves a GREAT WR, and an average QB in Orton.

[BUFFALOKIE]

The big question is what we do with the money we save from not having the pick. Does it allow us to keep a player or two or go out and sign a blue chip veteran? If that's the case, then it's a good trade.

 

That is an interesting question! I haven't seen that angle discussed yet.

 

And i voted yes for Sammy Hands.

Edited October 6, 2014 by THE KIKO MONSTER

[Augie]

Good things are expensive.... And he's a very good thing. Well worth it because that pick next year has a legitimate chance to be a Maybin or a Donte Whitner. It's not just us, every team is rolling the dice on every pick and sometimes you lose, even in round one. This was a sure thing in my mind.

[Jim in Anchorage]

I hate trading up in the draft. I probably would have just stayed there and hoped Evans fell or picked Ebron. That said, yesterday, he showed he was a special talent. That pass from Orton had pick 6 all over it and he made an unbelievable catch to help us win a game.

 

It's such a risky trade but he can be one of the best wrs in the NFL.

 

 

 

I don't get the Bradford love. What has he really proven so far? He also has struggled with injuries since college. Way too risky for the amount he will cost IMO.

Do you have to knock Orton in every thread? I understand you worship EJ and are upset by his benching but just go with it. One thing I have noticed about you EJ fans. Against Huston his drops were making EJ look bad. In the Detroit game his circus catch's made Orton look good. Amazing what a week can do.

[Bills Fan of St Augustine]

Naturally fans will be loving the pick after a win, and the Bills tied in the division lead with the Patriots after 5 games in being 3-2. Lets revisit this conversation next April, as so many things can happen between now and then.

 

As adamant as some here are about spending a first round pick on an OG. I'm just as adamant about spending two first round picks AND a fourth for a WR. Especially considering the team still doesn't have their franchise QB. The one unequivocal position that touches the ball every offensive play is far, far more important then a WR.

 

Both Kelvin Benjamin & Brandin Cooks look to be excellent receivers from this years draft. Now tell me a trade back for one of those two, while picking up an extra 2nd pick for a quality OG wouldn't have paid off big time. Pears at RG is a joke, and the run game, and offense is suffering for it.

 

I love the win in Detroit, and that Sammy is a special player. Its just so far he doesn't look to be worth 3 players at this time. I hope Sammy is soon a top 10 WR with Orton at QB, and he single handedly destroys the Patriots. I may just change my mind

- The OL is the reason everyone on this board is dissing Spiller! Decent OL with average QB play and solid WRs (Williams, Woods and Benjamin?) to go along with one of the top Ds in football takes us places beyond just a token playoff appearance. Super Bowl or Bust!

[Virgil]

Until I know the qb or other player I'm missing out on next year, I really can't say. If it kills us on a need, then I don't like it

[HOUSE]

Sore ribs are very painful, I couldn't even walk. Not sure how to rate an obviously injured player. Probably won't be 100% till after the bye

 

 

 

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[Orton's Arm]

Yes! This flies in the face of the mantra getting sammy was betting the farm in Manuel.

 

Why can't it work for orton too?

 

Awesome WRs make QBs better. I alway thought the key with fitz was getting bigger targets who wouldn't need perfectly thrown balls.

 

Let Brady and manning have the average WRs. They have the accuracy to deal with it.

 

I voted against the trade. On the one hand, I think there's a very good chance Watkins will perform at the level you'd expect from a player chosen 4th overall; and considered one of the four elite players in the draft. As others have pointed out, teams need stars, and Watkins looks like he's in the process of becoming a star for the Bills.

 

However, Bridgewater represented an opportunity for the Bills to obtain a long-term answer at quarterback. With the right trade up, the same could also be said about Bortles. There has been one franchise QB in Bills' history: Jim Kelly. Obtaining his successor fundamentally changes the equation for this football team. As important as a star at WR is, a very good QB dwarfs the impact even of that.

 

On the other hand, I liked what I saw of Orton against Detroit. Enough to change my screen name, in fact.

 

Best-case scenario: Orton is a top-15 QB for the Bills for at least the next five years. In which case, losing out on the chance to draft Bridgewater or Bortles wouldn't feel so bad.

[Kirby Jackson]

Until I know the qb or other player I'm missing out on next year, I really can't say. If it kills us on a need, then I don't like it

Which is the exact reason that I asked it as a yes or no. We don't have the luxury of hindsight and I wish that we would have asked before the year. I am firmly in the star camp. You win with stars and he is going to be one. I would rather have Sammy than Ebron and the 20th best player next year. It actually isn't that close for me. I have always been a Sammy fan but it is clear to me that he will be a star. Edited October 6, 2014 by Kirby Jackson

[mmichii]

All I need to see are those catches he made at critical moments in the game. He came through for his team in the big moments. I would make the trade again in a heartbeat. Talent like that only comes along once every so often.

[thewildrabbit]

- The OL is the reason everyone on this board is dissing Spiller! Decent OL with average QB play and solid WRs (Williams, Woods and Benjamin?) to go along with one of the top Ds in football takes us places beyond just a token playoff appearance. Super Bowl or Bust!

Probably the least desired player in the last draft is where the Dallas Cowboys went in selecting Zack Martin who they took with the 16th pick. Just about as unsexy a pick as you can get in taking an OG in the first round. But then, just look what that revamped O line has done for that Dallas run game, and QB Tony Romo. Then the same can be said about OG Fluker, and Philip Rivers.

 

The Bills O line is the weakest area of the team, and not just because they are starting two rookies, as there will usually always be growing pains with rookies. Its mostly because of the money spent on a near useless player in FA OG Chris Williams, and the continued unbelievably bad play of Erik Pears.

 

While Orton played a masterful game and held his composure against Detroit despite the not so great first half play. Which is something that EJ clearly fails to do. I still have to question if that #1 wouldn't have been better spent on a QB next draft. The Bills also still need a RG, and possible LG in this next years draft.

[Slippery Rubber Mats]

I'm not sure how many pops I'd need to drink before I called Orton's game yesterday "masterful".

 

I suspect a lot.

Edited October 7, 2014 by gregor7777

[Sojourner]

 

The Bills O line is the weakest area of the team, and not just because they are starting two rookies, as there will usually always be growing pains with rookies. Its mostly because of the money spent on a near useless player in FA OG Chris Williams, and the continued unbelievably bad play of Erik Pears.

 

The Bills also still need a RG, and possible LG in this next years draft.

Pears is out the door next season and there's a few good options in FA - Fusco (Vikes), Iupati (9ers) and Connolly (Pats*). A lot of cap room to maneuver even with the resigning of two or three key players.

[Deranged Rhino]

Pears is out the door next season ...

 

And upon that day, there shall be much rejoicing.

[YoloinOhio]

 

 

That is an interesting question! I haven't seen that angle discussed yet.

 

And i voted yes for Sammy Hands.

i brought up the savings a few months ago and was laughed at. I said it was a fringe benefit of not having a 1st rd pick to sign/pay. I still believe that. It is obviously better to have the player who you get on a Rookie deal for 4-5 yrs. But a FA Or extension can be done with that money too.

[Augie]

Sore ribs are very painful, I couldn't even walk.

Is that when you started popping the pills? Wait, are you THAT House?

 

I can still see the jump/knee that started this whole thing. What a crock! Rib injuries are a bad, bad injury.

[djp14150]

Probably the least desired player in the last draft is where the Dallas Cowboys went in selecting Zack Martin who they took with the 16th pick. Just about as unsexy a pick as you can get in taking an OG in the first round. But then, just look what that revamped O line has done for that Dallas run game, and QB Tony Romo. Then the same can be said about OG Fluker, and Philip Rivers.

 

The Bills O line is the weakest area of the team, and not just because they are starting two rookies, as there will usually always be growing pains with rookies. Its mostly because of the money spent on a near useless player in FA OG Chris Williams, and the continued unbelievably bad play of Erik Pears.

 

While Orton played a masterful game and held his composure against Detroit despite the not so great first half play. Which is something that EJ clearly fails to do. I still have to question if that #1 wouldn't have been better spent on a QB next draft. The Bills also still need a RG, and possible LG in this next years draft.

 

You dont use 1st round picks on guards. Im not all that worried about their OL. They can go out in the offseason and sign a guard.

 

Watkins is a special receiver. I would do that deal again.

 

If they do wel, this year and make the playoffs---the pick is in the 20s. You generally arent going to get some sort of elite talent that would impact you next season.

 

They have a 2nd and 3rd next year (IIRC) and they should be geting a comp pick for Byrd.

[Sojourner]

They have a 2nd and 3rd next year (IIRC) and they should be geting a comp pick for Byrd.

 

Two thirds if the conditions of the SJ trade are met. Fourth if they're not. Either way we'll have four picks in the first four rounds.

[Ohiostyle]

Sorry can't answer the poll, just too early. I love the way Sammy's playing, but I need a larger sample size. My choice wouldn't have anything to do with what is on the board when the Browns use our pick, cuz you just can't hypothesize what the Bills would have done there, but I do need to see more Sammy, Ebron, and Benjamin.

[aristocrat]

I've said it a few times but I think i'd take benjamin especially if we could have traded back and gotten a 1st next year or a 2nd this year. kb is legit and we could have added another quality player with that extra pick.

[JESSEFEFFER]

The Bills had him at #1 on their board, supposedly. From Whaley's point-of-view it was a fair price to get the palyer they considered to be the best in the draft. The EJ argument is/has been a bad one. Sammy can be great independently of EJ's career. Josh Gordon had a great year with Hoyer, Weeden and Cambell throwing to him.

 

At one time the draft was the be all end all. Not so anymore. Whatever they decide is their primary need in the 2015 off season, there are multiple ways to address it and a first round draft pick is but one. But hen again I considered this year's team to be an improvement over last year's, which was essentially a .500 team that gave two games away.

[Beerball]

If the Bills could do it all over would you make the trade? I purposely left off "too early to tell." A simple yes or no.

Too early to tell.

 

He made 2 incredible catches yesterday that showed unbelievable body control. Can't teach that. Keep feeding him the ball.

 

I was one of the skeptics because I was concerned at how many of his catches were short ones (under 5 yards), but, he's shown that he can run routes and his hands can't be questioned. Put me down as a yes. (I think I said at the time that I was Missouri...he had to "show me.")

[Kirby Jackson]

Too early to tell.

 

He made 2 incredible catches yesterday that showed unbelievable body control. Can't teach that. Keep feeding him the ball.

 

I was one of the skeptics because I was concerned at how many of his catches were short ones (under 5 yards), but, he's shown that he can run routes and his hands can't be questioned. Put me down as a yes. (I think I said at the time that I was Missouri...he had to "show me.")

Glad to see you taking a stand Beerball. Welcome to the club!!

[Kelly the Dog]

Watkins best play and catch pretty much single-handedly won us the game (with an assist from Dan Carpenter.

Watkins second best catch and play was phenomenal one hander.

Watkins third best play was vastly underrated, reaching behind him late in the game that was a very good catch for 22 yards.

Watkins fourth best play was a sneaky and tough lunge with the ball for a first down that looked like he would be two yards short on third down.

Watkins fifth best play was a nifty pattern and catch for a14 yard first down.

Watkins sixth best play was a short catch that he eluded his guy right on him and danced along the sidelines for a first down.

 

He's a tremendous player.

[SJDK]

At the time i really wanted us to trade back and take Benjamin but Watkins has a chance to have the better season now with orton at QB. I'd probably say Benjamin plus a second(?) from last years draft and next years first still being there would be a better value. Who knows, it kind of depends on who is drafted with our pick next year and who is available and whatnot

[Kelly the Dog]

At the end of the year, when we are in the playoffs or on the brink of them, some moron is going to post, in all seriousness, if we wouldn't have traded for Watkins, we would have only won three games, and we would have been in a position to get a QB #1.

Edited October 7, 2014 by Kelly the Dog

[PromoTheRobot]

When they put Sammy's bust in Canton the inscription can say "The Bills paid too much for him."

[JPS]

 

 

Two thirds if the conditions of the SJ trade are met. Fourth if they're not. Either way we'll have four picks in the first four rounds.

but for that trade for the great Bryce Brown.

[thewildrabbit]

I'm not sure how many pops I'd need to drink before I called Orton's game yesterday "masterful".

 

I suspect a lot.

I called it masterful because he managed to make plays after the half despite the pick 6, and the nonexistent Bills run game, 22 rushes for 49 yards. Meant Orton was forced to carry the entire offense on his shoulders. Then the fact that Orton was only sacked 2x, and was under a lot or pressure due to the bad line. 15 first downs passing vs 2 rushing. 30 of 43 for 293 yards passing.

 

The Detroit lions went into that game with the #1 overall defense, and yet Orton managed to beat them. The biggest part was that Orton called audibles at certain times, and those plays worked to help win the game.